Checking the credits in a CD case is a fool-proof way of finding out whether someone has actually participated in the project. Please check the thread that I linked too, I found all the full and extensive credits online for all the games and company’s related to them that he apparently said he worked for/on at the Greek conference. He’s is not mentioned on any of them even as a tester, intern, admin, or even in special thanks or as a miscellaneous contributor.
There are many levels of participation, from actual coding to administrative work and, given Tasos' young age, it'd be safe to assume that his (any) involvement in those projects would have been of the latter type. I personally could claim I have worked for these company’s and game’s but no one would believe me unless I was on the credits, whey do you still give Tasos the benefit of the doubt and ignore the clear evidence suggesting that he either lied or grossly exaggerated his involvement?
Checking the credits in a CD case is a fool-proof way of finding out whether someone has actually participated in the project. Please check the thread that I linked too, I found all the full and extensive credits online for all the games and company’s related to them that he apparently said he worked for/on at the Greek conference. He’s is not mentioned on any of them even as a tester, intern, admin, or even in special thanks or as a miscellaneous contributor.
There are many levels of participation, from actual coding to administrative work and, given Tasos' young age, it'd be safe to assume that his (any) involvement in those projects would have been of the latter type. I personally could claim I have worked for these company’s and game’s but no one would believe me unless I was on the credits, whey do you still give Tasos the benefit of the doubt and ignore the clear evidence suggesting that he either lied or grossly exaggerated his involvement?
If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah? Now, heres the rub though, if he had the audacity to say he worked for these companies and have this work published, don't you think one of these other companies would request a retraction of the statement.
This is, afterall, a news article.
And as for the confusion, have you ever heard the phrase "Thats greek to me." ... well perhaps they came up with it because even greek people can't understand eachother.
joking of course
Regardless, I don't think this really has changed anything as far as my view on darkfalls development. But almost..... ...
The article also states he works for microsoft twice and that darkfall under razorwax was called neocron. Its actually 3 times because he claims to of worked for MSN gaming zone, and on Age of Empires, which was published by Microsoft, and on Asheron’s Call also published by Microsoft. He’s already clarified that he actually said Aventurine considered looking at Neocron as a title to be involved with before Darkfall, do try and keep up.
I am wondering if was talking about what he said, what he did in those companies. There is a lot one can do that does not get accredited in credits. Please explain exactly what one can do at a company that will not get you listed on the credits for a game but can still be reasonably constituted as previous experience in game development. Things like janitor or working in cafeteria don’t, perhaps he meant he was a public beta tester for these games and company‘s, in which case by Tasos standards makes most of us all game developers, yay!
Polar also emailed this fellow in the most unprofessional and stupid trollish manner like he was posting on some damn mmo forum. Any magazine editor would not spend more then a half minutes ass responce to that . What are you talking about?, I have not idea.
If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah? Now, heres the rub though, if he had the audacity to say he worked for these companies and have this work published, don't you think one of these other companies would request a retraction of the statement. This is, afterall, a news article. And as for the confusion, have you ever heard the phrase "Thats greek to me." ... well perhaps they came up with it because even greek people can't understand eachother. joking of course Regardless, I don't think this really has changed anything as far as my view on darkfalls development. But almost..... ...
Nobody apart from a relatively small number of English speaking fans following Darkfall are aware of that obscure article, there will never be a retraction or a correction, he’s accused the article of being at fault and that’s the end of the story for the majority of the supporters.
Aventurine and Darkfall have almost zero credibility or main stream media coverage anymore, so nobody will probably even notice.
That’s why Tasos thought he could get away with saying those things, and he pretty much has, except I found it, so he simply accused it of being incorrect.
It had the desired effect because he has appeared professional and credible to the other Greek game developers, which is what its all about with him, keeping up appearances and impressing potential investors and publishers.
He’s now on the board of members setting up a new “Greek game developers Club”, and no doubt got lots more offers from Greek developers willing to work for low wages and long hours, and even more interns and students to “professionally test” the game for free.
All in all a good days work for Tasos, pity it did not include demonstrating anything new about the game though, but why change a winning formula.
If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah? Now, heres the rub though, if he had the audacity to say he worked for these companies and have this work published, don't you think one of these other companies would request a retraction of the statement. This is, afterall, a news article. And as for the confusion, have you ever heard the phrase "Thats greek to me." ... well perhaps they came up with it because even greek people can't understand eachother. joking of course Regardless, I don't think this really has changed anything as far as my view on darkfalls development. But almost..... ...
Nobody apart from a relatively small number of English speaking fans following Darkfall are aware of that obscure article, there will never be a retraction or a correction, he’s accused the article of being at fault and that’s the end of the story for the majority of the supporters.
Aventurine and Darkfall have almost zero credibility or main stream media coverage anymore, so nobody will probably even notice.
That’s why Tasos thought he could get away with saying those things, and he pretty much has, except I found it, so he simply accused it of being incorrect.
It had the desired effect because he has appeared professional and credible to the other Greek game developers, which is what its all about with him, keeping up appearances and impressing potential investors and publishers.
He’s now on the board of members setting up a new “Greek game developers Club”, and no doubt got lots more offers from Greek developers willing to work for low wages and long hours, and even more interns and students to “professionally test” the game for free.
All in all a good days work for Tasos, pity it did not include demonstrating anything new about the game though, but why change a winning formula.
Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again!
Hey when your greek, you're greek, can't complain about that, I've said it before, we can't force Tasos to run his PR efficiently, correctly, or smoothly. Lately he's made a number of blunders -- can't say it hasn't happened before in an MMO -- but this is different because a large "fanbase" is nitpicking on a game that hasn't released.
Don't get me wrong, I get it, Tasos is a PR magician, using his magic video wand, and verbal slight-of-hand to trick the masses into believing DarkFall is something that it isn't.
Unfortunately for us masses, we can't prove or disprove anything which puts us in a spot.
I'm just saying with how vague he's been all along, all it is, is a time waster. He's biding time... for what.. .well I don't know. Maybe he's waiting until they run out of money. "Hey guys we had a good run, lets pack up and go home." Or maybe he actually believe they will launch this game.
Originally posted by gotha Polar also emailed this fellow in the most unprofessional and stupid trollish manner like he was posting on some damn mmo forum. Any magazine editor would not spend more then a half minutes ass responce to that .
You don't read anything before opening your pie-hole, do you? Go back to the top and S--L--O--W--L--Y read it again.
Because his name does not even appear as even an intern or a tester on any of the credits for any of those games or from the people credited from the company’s involved in their creation. But I have already proven beyond reasonable doubt that Tasos never worked on Age of Empires, Ashersons Call, Messiah or for Microsoft, Turbine, Ensemble Studios or Shiney Entertainament.
Checking the credits in a CD case is a fool-proof way of finding out whether someone has actually participated in the project.
There are many levels of participation, from actual coding to administrative work and, given Tasos' young age, it'd be safe to assume that his (any) involvement in those projects would have been of the latter type.
Wait...you're serious? You think it's safer to assume he held some uncredited administrative positions in 4 different projects than it is to assume he had nothing to do with them because his name can't be found in relation to any of them.
To anyone that said it's acceptable to falsify credentials in public, or worse, a professional environment, please reconsider defending who or what you're defending if you need to continuously lower your standards in order to make their actions justifiable.
If the article is to blame, then that's an easy fix, as demonstrated by other companies that were misrepresented, yet Aventurine only sent one correction and then confirmation. If Anastasios Flampouras or Tasos Flambouras or whatever his real name is, lied or fabricated anything then one is prone to believe he may have done so before and elsewhere, under less scrutiny. To believe otherwise is naive.
Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again! Hey when your greek, you're greek, can't complain about that, I've said it before, we can't force Tasos to run his PR efficiently, correctly, or smoothly. Lately he's made a number of blunders -- can't say it hasn't happened before in an MMO -- but this is different because a large "fanbase" is nitpicking on a game that hasn't released. Don't get me wrong, I get it, Tasos is a PR magician, using his magic video wand, and verbal slight-of-hand to trick the masses into believing DarkFall is something that it isn't. Unfortunately for us masses, we can't prove or disprove anything which puts us in a spot. I'm just saying with how vague he's been all along, all it is, is a time waster. He's biding time... for what.. .well I don't know. Maybe he's waiting until they run out of money. "Hey guys we had a good run, lets pack up and go home." Or maybe he actually believe they will launch this game. Why do you think he's stalling for time?
To get investors and publishers,
To “maintain” and “build” the community,
To promote and hype the product and the company,
To gain as much development time as possible,
To extend the time before launch or cancellation,
To pursue other business opportunity’s and obligations,
and to maintain the pretense of a successful and credible company.
Or maybe only some of the above, or maybe non.
I have no interest in “defeating” Tasos nor do I foolishly believe I will have any sort of victory over him, I marvel at his audacity and duplicity , and I’m fascinated and amused by his shenanigans.
To me personally its obvious he’s a charlatan and a manipulator of the highest order, he is the Wizard of Oz, and I think he’s been playing with smoke and mirrors for years, but I guess we wont really find out the truth till the end of the year.
Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again! Hey when your greek, you're greek, can't complain about that, I've said it before, we can't force Tasos to run his PR efficiently, correctly, or smoothly. Lately he's made a number of blunders -- can't say it hasn't happened before in an MMO -- but this is different because a large "fanbase" is nitpicking on a game that hasn't released. Don't get me wrong, I get it, Tasos is a PR magician, using his magic video wand, and verbal slight-of-hand to trick the masses into believing DarkFall is something that it isn't. Unfortunately for us masses, we can't prove or disprove anything which puts us in a spot. I'm just saying with how vague he's been all along, all it is, is a time waster. He's biding time... for what.. .well I don't know. Maybe he's waiting until they run out of money. "Hey guys we had a good run, lets pack up and go home." Or maybe he actually believe they will launch this game. Why do you think he's stalling for time?
To get investors and publishers,
To “maintain” and “build” the community,
To promote and hype the product and the company,
To gain as much development time as possible,
To extend the time before launch or cancellation,
To pursue other business opportunity’s and obligations,
and to maintain the pretense of a successful and credible company.
Or maybe only some of the above, or maybe non.
I have no interest in “defeating” Tasos nor do I foolishly believe I will have any sort of victory over him, I marvel at his audacity and duplicity , and I’m fascinated and amused by his shenanigans.
To me personally its obvious he’s a charlatan and a manipulator of the highest order, he is the Wizard of Oz, and I think he’s been playing with smoke and mirrors for years, but I guess we wont really find out the truth till the end of the year.
I'm just pointing out that uncovering all of this information doesn't really change anything, nor change my personal views of DarkFall. Not that I hold Adventurine in any particular high standard, but you've got to ask yourself, WHY you just keep asking HOW.
You seem to have no problems finding out how. How Razor Wax went bust, How Tasos may or may not have lied about certain things, or asking How Darkfall will pull off a launch in 2008. Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out.
That in itself holds more weight then finding out what happened to their old company. Because I don't care about that. (Personally I don't care about the project as a whole really, I'm just playing Devils Advocate cause noone rational seems to try)
So ultimately you've given us nothing more then old information about RazorWaxes demise, Tasos's name change, and his possible fibs on his affiliations. What does that have to do with the project though?
We know its self funded.
We know the project is in development.
We know there are a purported 30 developers working on DarkFall.
We know that RazorWax (who supposedly had an early development of the game) Staff merged with Adventurine . (Why did Razorwax go bankrupt years after the merger?)
We know that some indie games can take a longer then usual development time.
We know Adventurine said they have noone to Advertise for them, and an extremely poor Public Relations person (Tasos) who does more then just Public Relations (supposedly)
We know they showed a year old video at a conference a few weeks ago. (albiet it wasn't a major one) But they still believe on an 08 release. Not to mention Tasos mentioned in an update new videos were coming. (I think that was close to 3 weeks ago on his update)
I dunno --- still pretty early to tell whats going to happen.
Considering you said your only playing devils advocate, and you presume to declare that “We already know” a bunch of stuff that seems to be completely contradictory to pretty much all of what I think I know and have tried to demonstrate.
And a bunch of the stuff you say “We already know” is precisely because I found it and posted it here first.
And I already gave a brief list of obvious common sense reasons why they might have been behaving in this way, but your still asking me why they are.
And you have decided that I have only provided “old information” that you apparently don’t consider has anything to do with the project.
And you still seem to believe that Tasos will release that comprehensive game play video he mentioned 2 months ago “soon”.
And you still think its pretty early to tell what’s going to happen to a project after 8 years of development with still no public beta, publishing or launch information / dates, I don’t think there’s really any point in continuing this conversation.
I am sorry maskedweasel, but to me, with statements like these:
"If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah?"
"Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again!"
And especially:
"Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out."
You don't come off as a "rational Devil's Advocate" but rather as a less confrontational than average supporter whose faith is unshakable in the face of any new information. And yes, new information, because none of what Polarization has been posting was previously known, especially the real fate of Razorwax after the Aventurine "merger". So you seek to discount Polarization's finds because he can't find a clear motive, he has speculated on it (and speculate is all anyone can do without mind reading abilities), yet it's not good enough for you. What's good enough for you, however, is taking for granted your speculation as to why they're doing it, and somehow use that speculated end to justify the means.
Faith in the developers notwithstanding, how do you know this "Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out." to be true?
"And I already gave a brief list of obvious common sense reasons why they might have been behaving in this way, but your still asking me why they are."
Its all just to prove a point Polar, all I'm saying is that they're doing it for a reason. You gave me possible reasons, ONE of those reasons is that they're trying to launch this game. I don't see how thats tough to understand. The only other actual plausible reason is if they were trying to rip off investors and steal money that way -- which is illegal and punishable by imprisonment.
"nd you have decided that I have only provided “old information” that you apparently don’t consider has anything to do with the project."
Face it Polar, this is old information. It happened years ago, uncovering it now doesn't make it any newer. I don't think it has anything to do with the actual project -- no I don't -- and personally I could care less if Adventurine releases DarkFall or if SOE does after they buy it off them like they did with Sigil and Vanguard. Running out of money has no validity on the actual project bub, thats all I'm saying.
"And you still seem to believe that Tasos will release that comprehensive game play video he mentioned 2 months ago “soon”.
Hey, whether or not we get a video it doesn't bother me -- I'm just repeating what information I have to go on -- and that is basically that they have no PR person or Advertising agent, which usually would be responsible for putting together Trailers and such. Personally I'd like to wait til the end of 08 (not like I have much of a choice) to see how things pan out. I expect you'll do the same whether you like it or not too. If we see a video great, if not, then I guess we'll just keep "waiting" for Darkfall.
And you still think its pretty early to tell what’s going to happen to a project after 8 years of development with still no public beta, publishing or launch information / dates, I don’t think there’s really any point in continuing this conversation.
Well, with a 2008 release date that they claim to be "FIRM" I stand to reason yes, this is too early. Development times really don't mean anything to me... I heard about them shooting a Max Payne movie back in 2003 and I was really excited.. turns out they might shoot it and it will actually come out this year. I'm not holding my breath, but they say its pretty firm too. I'll wait and see --- thats all I'm saying.
SILVARCH buddy,
"I am sorry maskedweasel, but to me, with statements like these:
"If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah?"
"Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again!"
These were both jokes, the first one was a half-joke the second one was a crack at polar cause I thought it was funny -- he single handedly saved the world from a potential liar. Thats funny to me. I like Polar, don't get me wrong, I just feel the way he worded it sounded a little dramatic.
Faith in the developers notwithstanding, how do you know this "Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out." to be true?
How do I know that its true? The same reasons you know its not true. The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally. Either way I'm happy. Even if development goes on for 30 more years I'll be happy.. I'm really not as avid a supporter as you claim --- but for this forum.. and for you Silvarch, I will be.
As I stated before, until the game is no longer in development, launched, sold, or actually confirmed as a hoax all information pertaining to the speculation in regards to darkfall and or its developers means very little to me. I'm a big picture kinda guy. All these little things don't change the big picture for me, maybe if you explain to me exactly how Tasos saying he worked in development for Microsoft when he really brought Bill Gates his coffee really changes that a game named DarkFall is in development and has a suposed release date of 2008 then I would gladly change my stand.
Plus if you guys read all this I'll send you both lollypops.
The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally. Why would they be in trouble? They have no investors other then themselves. They can sit around jerking off for another 7 years telling morons that the game will be out next year. Either way I'm happy. Even if development goes on for 30 more years I'll be happy.. That's a pretty idiotic statement. lol
Fact of the matter is Darkfall will never be what they want it to be... ever..
It's a failure waiting to launch or waiting to be cancelled.
The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally. Why would they be in trouble? They have no investors other then themselves. They can sit around jerking off for another 7 years telling morons that the game will be out next year. Either way I'm happy. Even if development goes on for 30 more years I'll be happy.. That's a pretty idiotic statement. lol
Fact of the matter is Darkfall will never be what they want it to be... ever..
It's a failure waiting to launch or waiting to be cancelled.
They're self funded for the most part, but if they say they're developing a game when in turn they're just trying to lure investors to take their money then.. yeah buddy thats illegal.
Secondly.. I think you misunderstood why I'd be happy if development goes on for another 30 years.... ..... .... mainly cause I don't care if the game releases or not. I'm not waiting by the PC mouse at the ready to click Download when the DF beta comes out. I just don't care.. I'll be happy if it NEVER RELEASES.. I'll also be happy when I get something to eat... and doubly happy if I have sex tonight.
Does that clear it up for ya buddy?
as to your edit.. that I added.
Its not ridiculous to wait for DarkFall to launch or fail... in fact.. your waiting for darkfall right now. You're also waiting for spore, the sun to explode, Batman: The Dark Knight, and dinnertime. Time moves forward, and we wait -- what comes while time passes doesn't really matter if you really look at it.
I realize I'm just some noob poster, but I've been following this Darkfall game for a bit now and the funny thing is, one of the first things that struck me when I looked into it was what an incredible scam this thing could turn out to be.
Basically all you need to do is convince an investor or two to buy into the thing selling them on the idea that they are going to become Blizzard-level wealthy and you can just keep the money flowing in. I mean if true gamers, some with real industry experience, find it understandable that this game isn't released after, what, 7 years in development, how in the world would non-industry investors be able to figure out whether or not it's time to pull the plug.
I'm not saying that that's what's happening with Darkfall, but the fact is there's ABSOLUTELY NO FOOTAGE of a person playing this so-called game... after 7 years! I've seen video of something that may or may not be in-game footage but nothing so far has been anything other than stuff that could have been created in absence of a real game system.
Whatever others might say (including possible Averntine shills - wouldn't put it passed them since employment histories were changed based on posts on this board) Polar, you've done a great job uncovering this information and helping this community see what's going on behind the curtain as far as this game is concerned.
For starters Polarization "And I already gave a brief list of obvious common sense reasons why they might have been behaving in this way, but your still asking me why they are." Its all just to prove a point Polar, all I'm saying is that they're doing it for a reason. You gave me possible reasons, ONE of those reasons is that they're trying to launch this game. I don't see how thats tough to understand. The only other actual plausible reason is if they were trying to rip off investors and steal money that way -- which is illegal and punishable by imprisonment.
"nd you have decided that I have only provided “old information” that you apparently don’t consider has anything to do with the project." Face it Polar, this is old information. It happened years ago, uncovering it now doesn't make it any newer. I don't think it has anything to do with the actual project -- no I don't -- and personally I could care less if Adventurine releases DarkFall or if SOE does after they buy it off them like they did with Sigil and Vanguard. Running out of money has no validity on the actual project bub, thats all I'm saying. "And you still seem to believe that Tasos will release that comprehensive game play video he mentioned 2 months ago “soon”. Hey, whether or not we get a video it doesn't bother me -- I'm just repeating what information I have to go on -- and that is basically that they have no PR person or Advertising agent, which usually would be responsible for putting together Trailers and such. Personally I'd like to wait til the end of 08 (not like I have much of a choice) to see how things pan out. I expect you'll do the same whether you like it or not too. If we see a video great, if not, then I guess we'll just keep "waiting" for Darkfall.
And you still think its pretty early to tell what’s going to happen to a project after 8 years of development with still no public beta, publishing or launch information / dates, I don’t think there’s really any point in continuing this conversation.
Well, with a 2008 release date that they claim to be "FIRM" I stand to reason yes, this is too early. Development times really don't mean anything to me... I heard about them shooting a Max Payne movie back in 2003 and I was really excited.. turns out they might shoot it and it will actually come out this year. I'm not holding my breath, but they say its pretty firm too. I'll wait and see --- thats all I'm saying. SILVARCH buddy, "I am sorry maskedweasel, but to me, with statements like these: "If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah?"
"Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again!" These were both jokes, the first one was a half-joke the second one was a crack at polar cause I thought it was funny -- he single handedly saved the world from a potential liar. Thats funny to me. I like Polar, don't get me wrong, I just feel the way he worded it sounded a little dramatic. Faith in the developers notwithstanding, how do you know this "Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out." to be true?
How do I know that its true? The same reasons you know its not true. The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally. Either way I'm happy. Even if development goes on for 30 more years I'll be happy.. I'm really not as avid a supporter as you claim --- but for this forum.. and for you Silvarch, I will be. As I stated before, until the game is no longer in development, launched, sold, or actually confirmed as a hoax all information pertaining to the speculation in regards to darkfall and or its developers means very little to me. I'm a big picture kinda guy. All these little things don't change the big picture for me, maybe if you explain to me exactly how Tasos saying he worked in development for Microsoft when he really brought Bill Gates his coffee really changes that a game named DarkFall is in development and has a suposed release date of 2008 then I would gladly change my stand. Plus if you guys read all this I'll send you both lollypops.
Hmm, where to begin...
Face it Polar, this is old information. It happened years ago, uncovering it now doesn't make it any newer.
I take it you consider discoveries in anthropology, history and hell, physics, old information as well, then. New or old when it pertains to information has nothing to do with how recent the event it covers is, but on previous knowledge of it. This was not widely known before, thus new. Or are you saying you knew of this before Polarization's posts?
Development times really don't mean anything to me
Understood, then we will take your opinion on how it's "too early" or otherwise regarding them as appropriately meaningless.
I don't think it has anything to do with the actual project -- no I don't -- and personally I could care less if Adventurine releases DarkFall or if SOE does after they buy it off them like they did with Sigil and Vanguard. Running out of money has no validity on the actual project bub, thats all I'm saying.
You must mean you couldn't care less, because saying you could care less means that you do care. Running out of money means the project gets canned, or ships as a crippled version of its original vision, as with the example you so kindly provided. That, by the way, has been our point all along and has a lot to do with the project.
How do I know that its true? The same reasons you know its not true. The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally.
I don't know anything about the state of the game to be true, hence my doubts and nonconformity with what's been claimed, nor have I ever expressed or implied that I do. The notion that you can derive conclusive evidence and know something must be true simply because the alternative is illegal is extremely naive, especially when there's precedent (illegal activities in the handling of a company by the very same people that own Aventurine). Under that logic it would be inconceivable that people commit crimes, because they're illegal.
All I can think of when I read your post is that you're supporter who doesn't care if they lie, fabricate stuff at a conference, do not care about the community enough to provide solid information about anything, and outright have illegal dealings in the management of a company, or how long they take to do anything because you have very low standards. You're easily convinced (easier than the so called vaportrolls at least) and disregard anything not directly related to the DF project but intimately related to the people involved in it. That's not looking at the big picture. Looking at the big picture means taking everything into account and trying to see how it fits together, and realizing that everything affects everything and determining how it does. The big picture indicates that if they've lied, fabricated stuff about something in public, and have done anything illegal in the management of something, nothing precludes them from having done the same with Aventurine and the DF project. I for one hope for the best, but I expect the worst.
Plus if you guys read all this I'll send you both lollypops.
Hmm, where to begin... Face it Polar, this is old information. It happened years ago, uncovering it now doesn't make it any newer. I take it you consider discoveries in anthropology, history and hell, physics, old information as well, then. New or old when it pertains to information has nothing to do with how recent the event it covers is, but on previous knowledge of it. This was not widely known before, thus new. Or are you saying you knew of this before Polarization's posts? Development times really don't mean anything to me Understood, then we will take your opinion on how it's "too early" or otherwise regarding them as appropriately meaningless. I don't think it has anything to do with the actual project -- no I don't -- and personally I could care less if Adventurine releases DarkFall or if SOE does after they buy it off them like they did with Sigil and Vanguard. Running out of money has no validity on the actual project bub, thats all I'm saying. You must mean you couldn't care less, because saying you could care less means that you do care. Running out of money means the project gets canned, or ships as a crippled version of its original vision, as with the example you so kindly provided. That, by the way, has been our point all along and has a lot to do with the project. How do I know that its true? The same reasons you know its not true. The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally. I don't know anything about the state of the game to be true, hence my doubts and nonconformity with what's been claimed, nor have I ever expressed or implied that I do. The notion that you can derive conclusive evidence and know something must be true simply because the alternative is illegal is extremely naive, especially when there's precedent (illegal activities in the handling of a company by the very same people that own Aventurine). Under that logic it would be inconceivable that people commit crimes, because they're illegal. All I can think of when I read your post is that you're supporter who doesn't care if they lie, fabricate stuff at a conference, do not care about the community enough to provide solid information about anything, and outright have illegal dealings in the management of a company, or how long they take to do anything because you have very low standards. You're easily convinced (easier than the so called vaportrolls at least) and disregard anything not directly related to the DF project but intimately related to the people involved in it. That's not looking at the big picture. Looking at the big picture means taking everything into account and trying to see how it fits together, and realizing that everything affects everything and determining how it does. The big picture indicates that if they've lied, fabricated stuff about something in public, and have done anything illegal in the management of something, nothing precludes them from having done the same with Aventurine and the DF project. I for one hope for the best, but I expect the worst. Plus if you guys read all this I'll send you both lollypops. I'll contact you with a shipping address.
Thanks for giving it a go Silvarch I really appreciate it.
"I take it you consider discoveries in anthropology, history and hell, physics, old information as well, then. New or old when it pertains to information has nothing to do with how recent the event it covers is, but on previous knowledge of it. This was not widely known before, thus new. Or are you saying you knew of this before Polarization's posts?"
I disagree here, mainly because new discoveries in anthropology actually change the outcome of the find greatly. Its like saying this particular tribe was originally believed to never have used a fork, until a fork was found -- this greatly changes that view. I don't see how Razorwax going bankrupt changes the view of how Adventurine is still creating a game called DarkFall. I mean the project isn't clearly defined by a single person, although I will for arguments sake Concede to the terms that Razorwaxes involvement, bakruptcy and dealings may have had its effect on the project at the time, or, perhaps could foreshadow the projects fate, --- but only under the circumstance that its only a supposition and not a definite.
You must mean you couldn't care less, because saying you could care less means that you do care. Running out of money means the project gets canned, or ships as a crippled version of its original vision, as with the example you so kindly provided. That, by the way, has been our point all along and has a lot to do with the project.
Well to say I don't care at all would be incorrect. I care enough to write these lengthy replies, not enough to reserve myself to be DarkFalls last hope for a forumfighter. I like the idea, I'd like to see it come to a happy ending. Personally I feel something will come of it, and I'm actually hoping for a Sigil effect more then anything else. Now it shipping in a critical version of itself would be FANTASTIC, and believe it or not, I think that would be some kind of accomplishment. At least it would be a good starting point for another developer to look at it, and deem whether its worth saving or scrapping. Maybe even a good groundbase for Mortal Online? Hopefully the end of 08 will be a good tell.
I don't know anything about the state of the game to be true, hence my doubts and nonconformity with what's been claimed, nor have I ever expressed or implied that I do. The notion that you can derive conclusive evidence and know something must be true simply because the alternative is illegal is extremely naive, especially when there's precedent (illegal activities in the handling of a company by the very same people that own Aventurine). Under that logic it would be inconceivable that people commit crimes, because they're illegal.
I disagree, I don't confirm or deny that DarkFall is in development primarily because the alternative is illegal. I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development. I'm not saying that they aren't pulling everyones leg.... but I'd prefer innocent until proven guilty instead of the other way around. I'd LIKE to believe that after all this time SOMETHING is in development. So I ask you do you truly believe DarkFall is in development? In the paragraph before you said that the point you and Polar were trying to make is that Darkfall will release but in a shattered state, so is this what you believe or do you believe nothing has been developed at all? Two very different things, two very different outcomes.
You're easily convinced (easier than the so called vaportrolls at least) and disregard anything not directly related to the DF project but intimately related to the people involved in it. That's not looking at the big picture. Looking at the big picture means taking everything into account and trying to see how it fits together, and realizing that everything affects everything and determining how it does. The big picture indicates that if they've lied, fabricated stuff about something in public, and have done anything illegal in the management of something, nothing precludes them from having done the same with Aventurine and the DF project. I for one hope for the best, but I expect the worst.
I'm not easily convinced of anything, and this isn't me trying to convince you personally that DarkFall will swoop in and save the day. Darkfall is the only one that can convince you of that. And I'm in a very different situation because I, Myself, have ultimate patience ... because if the game doesn't come out its not going to hurt me .. I don't want it as much as others, so its easy for me not to feel cheated when they don't release a video or update every week. I just like to hear the information as it comes.
As for the big picture... if I haven't made myself clear yet, the big picture to me is just the outcome of this game. Simply, and justly. Going bankrupt to me just means the games probably just been delayed and moved to another developer. If its the same Developers, yeah, thats something more to worry about, but I can tell you that if it is, theres a very good chance a lawsuit will come of that. Its like a mystery, and I want you to be honest..... truthfully honest with me. Do you know more about the games development than I do? Do you know as a fact that this game will not launch? If possible provide proof if your answers are yes .. but please be honest.
With unknown information there always leaves room for hope. I want this so I hope. And it never hurts to want something and be excited about it. I don't feel bad of mock them if fanbois get mislead... why should they be hurt for hoping this company stays true to their word? For all this arguing it boils down to what you can prove, and right now, if neither of us can prove anything, then this games still go at the end of 08.
P.S. Don't forget to put the flavor of lolly you want.. very important
Did any of you bright bright people ever think of having a an actual greek translation the article instead of using google translator. That would filter out a lot of the inaccuracies we think we are seeing. After you do that you could easily bring them point for point to the gameworlds.gr people and actually get some real answers.
Just think it would be a better idea then emailing them like a patronizing idiot using a crub google translation.
You could also just ask Galadron since he is greek, and probably has a shtload better position on this article then most of us non greek speakers.
Then once you get that done, email the gamesworld fellow back asking him about work exp. and the necron quote.
The translation posted in the other thread where the article is mentioned is pretty accurate.
For all this arguing it boils down to what you can prove, and right now, if neither of us can prove anything, then this games still go at the end of 08.
Why would it boil down to this? Why wouldn't it boil down to past experience and whether or not previous "promises" have been kept?
Which, in that case, means the game will not appear in '08... or '09... etc.
I disagree that it's not new information. To put it simply, if you didn't know something and you're informed of it, it's new information, regardless if your conclusions change or not. It does not have to challenge generally accepted views to be new, it only has to be previously unknown.
I wouldn't hope for a Sigil outcome, that was disastrous for all the parties involved, and the developers got seriously burned.
I don't understand this statement : "I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development."
Innocent until proven guilty is not definite nor conclusive evidence of a game in development. It only means it's not certain they're scamming or doing anything illegal until proven. Whether they're making a game or what state the game is actually in, or if they're scamming and doing anything illegal, is just speculation, but they're all equally valid. All Polarization did was show evidence of their previous dealings, if not outright lies (Razorwax merged, Tasos' credentials, etc), and make conjectures based on those. You reject those assumptions by replacing them with some of your own without even showing circumstantial evidence to back them up, just faith. Faith that they're innocent and not guilty.
I personally believe they have something, but that something isn't close to the DF they've promised. Others believe they have nothing at all. Unfortunately they both fall under vaporware. The shared point is that, one way or the other, DF is vaporware. It's just an opinion, however, and you can disagree. Time will tell.
Looking at just the outcome of the game is not looking at a big picture. I believe there's some confusion in the usage of the expression. If you don't really care about the details surrounding it, only if the game is released or not, you can't possibly claim to be looking at the big picture. The final picture, maybe, but certainly not the big picture.
I don't know if I know more about game development than you do, I only know one side of the inequality. I don't know what you know. I don't know anything about the true state of the game, as I've said before. If you do know something factual, would you please share it with us so we can stop assuming and start knowing? If you don't, then you can't discount or state as meaningless anyone else's assumptions without supporting evidence, especially when they show verifiable evidence themselves to support their assumptions.
Maskedweasel, I don’t want to appear rude but like I said , I wont be continuing the conversation with you if by your own admission you are only playing devils advocate and your dismissing most or everything I have found recently as not being relevant in one way or another or anything else that is known about this company and its project.
I think Its rather pointless to be continuing that conversation with yourself, and you will be doing so until you can actually provide something tangible (excluding Tasos’s words or your own) that supports your own apparently rather positive and optimist faith based speculation about the potential or possibilities you consider this project might achieve at some time in the future.
Did any of you bright bright people ever think of having a an actual greek translation the article instead of using google translator. That would filter out a lot of the inaccuracies we think we are seeing. After you do that you could easily bring them point for point to the gameworlds.gr people and actually get some real answers.
Just think it would be a better idea then emailing them like a patronizing idiot using a crub google translation.
You could also just ask Galadron since he is greek, and probably has a shtload better position on this article then most of us non greek speakers.
Then once you get that done, email the gamesworld fellow back asking him about work exp. and the necron quote.
If I'm not mistaken, the main point of concern in relation to Tasos's interview, is his past experience. But there is no way any of us can verify this information (other than asking Tasos directly )
But I have already proven beyond reasonable doubt that Tasos never worked on Age of Empires, Ashersons Call, Messiah or for Microsoft, Turbine, Ensemble Studios or Shiney Entertainament.
Because his name does not even appear as even an intern or a tester on any of the credits for any of those games or from the people credited from the company’s involved in their creation.
Sorry, but you've proven that he wasn't listed in the credits of those projects. If you're going to try to discredit someone to the brink of slander, call the companies and get HR to verify employment. Credits do not equal employment records.
But I have already proven beyond reasonable doubt that Tasos never worked on Age of Empires, Ashersons Call, Messiah or for Microsoft, Turbine, Ensemble Studios or Shiney Entertainament. Because his name does not even appear as even an intern or a tester on any of the credits for any of those games or from the people credited from the company’s involved in their creation.
Sorry, but you've proven that he wasn't listed in the credits of those projects. If you're going to try to discredit someone to the brink of slander, call the companies and get HR to verify employment. Credits do not equal employment records.
Come on now, lets get reasonable. We dont need to call any HR departments, because we dont really care if he was the front desk receptionist at the game studio. The FACT is, he didnt even warrant credit as a freaking intern. His contribution to any of those projects were AT BEST so insignificant he went unlisted in the credits.
He was giving this info at a conference on games! The very clear insinuation is that he had some sort of significant role. Clearly he did not.
This is the same guy that claims he was badly misquoted, yet he CONFIRMED the information to the source, with only a change of his role at Aventurine.
I honestly have a hard time believing how gullible some people are...but I try to remember that I was once wet behind the ears too. (this comment not directed at anyone in particular, but a general observation)
How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity.
All devs / people who contribute in any meaningful way in a games development would get listed in the credits.. They even list the testers and ' special ' contributers. Tasos is nowhere to be found in any and so it is obvious he had nothing to do with any of those games. He was just trying to pad his image in an area oblivious to what he and Darkfall are all about.
How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity.
There are millions of people who worship some book written thousands of years ago by a bunch of guys with nothing better to do.It's not that hard to believe that there are a few hundred idiots following this game and eating up all the nonsense the "devs" throw at them.
Comments
If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah? Now, heres the rub though, if he had the audacity to say he worked for these companies and have this work published, don't you think one of these other companies would request a retraction of the statement.
This is, afterall, a news article.
And as for the confusion, have you ever heard the phrase "Thats greek to me." ... well perhaps they came up with it because even greek people can't understand eachother.
joking of course
Regardless, I don't think this really has changed anything as far as my view on darkfalls development. But almost..... ...
Nobody apart from a relatively small number of English speaking fans following Darkfall are aware of that obscure article, there will never be a retraction or a correction, he’s accused the article of being at fault and that’s the end of the story for the majority of the supporters.
Aventurine and Darkfall have almost zero credibility or main stream media coverage anymore, so nobody will probably even notice.
That’s why Tasos thought he could get away with saying those things, and he pretty much has, except I found it, so he simply accused it of being incorrect.
It had the desired effect because he has appeared professional and credible to the other Greek game developers, which is what its all about with him, keeping up appearances and impressing potential investors and publishers.
He’s now on the board of members setting up a new “Greek game developers Club”, and no doubt got lots more offers from Greek developers willing to work for low wages and long hours, and even more interns and students to “professionally test” the game for free.
All in all a good days work for Tasos, pity it did not include demonstrating anything new about the game though, but why change a winning formula.
Nobody apart from a relatively small number of English speaking fans following Darkfall are aware of that obscure article, there will never be a retraction or a correction, he’s accused the article of being at fault and that’s the end of the story for the majority of the supporters.
Aventurine and Darkfall have almost zero credibility or main stream media coverage anymore, so nobody will probably even notice.
That’s why Tasos thought he could get away with saying those things, and he pretty much has, except I found it, so he simply accused it of being incorrect.
It had the desired effect because he has appeared professional and credible to the other Greek game developers, which is what its all about with him, keeping up appearances and impressing potential investors and publishers.
He’s now on the board of members setting up a new “Greek game developers Club”, and no doubt got lots more offers from Greek developers willing to work for low wages and long hours, and even more interns and students to “professionally test” the game for free.
All in all a good days work for Tasos, pity it did not include demonstrating anything new about the game though, but why change a winning formula.
Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again!
Hey when your greek, you're greek, can't complain about that, I've said it before, we can't force Tasos to run his PR efficiently, correctly, or smoothly. Lately he's made a number of blunders -- can't say it hasn't happened before in an MMO -- but this is different because a large "fanbase" is nitpicking on a game that hasn't released.
Don't get me wrong, I get it, Tasos is a PR magician, using his magic video wand, and verbal slight-of-hand to trick the masses into believing DarkFall is something that it isn't.
Unfortunately for us masses, we can't prove or disprove anything which puts us in a spot.
I'm just saying with how vague he's been all along, all it is, is a time waster. He's biding time... for what.. .well I don't know. Maybe he's waiting until they run out of money. "Hey guys we had a good run, lets pack up and go home." Or maybe he actually believe they will launch this game.
Why do you think he's stalling for time?
You don't read anything before opening your pie-hole, do you? Go back to the top and S--L--O--W--L--Y read it again.
Checking the credits in a CD case is a fool-proof way of finding out whether someone has actually participated in the project.
There are many levels of participation, from actual coding to administrative work and, given Tasos' young age, it'd be safe to assume that his (any) involvement in those projects would have been of the latter type.
Wait...you're serious? You think it's safer to assume he held some uncredited administrative positions in 4 different projects than it is to assume he had nothing to do with them because his name can't be found in relation to any of them.
To anyone that said it's acceptable to falsify credentials in public, or worse, a professional environment, please reconsider defending who or what you're defending if you need to continuously lower your standards in order to make their actions justifiable.
If the article is to blame, then that's an easy fix, as demonstrated by other companies that were misrepresented, yet Aventurine only sent one correction and then confirmation. If Anastasios Flampouras or Tasos Flambouras or whatever his real name is, lied or fabricated anything then one is prone to believe he may have done so before and elsewhere, under less scrutiny. To believe otherwise is naive.
To get investors and publishers,
To “maintain” and “build” the community,
To promote and hype the product and the company,
To gain as much development time as possible,
To extend the time before launch or cancellation,
To pursue other business opportunity’s and obligations,
and to maintain the pretense of a successful and credible company.
Or maybe only some of the above, or maybe non.
I have no interest in “defeating” Tasos nor do I foolishly believe I will have any sort of victory over him, I marvel at his audacity and duplicity , and I’m fascinated and amused by his shenanigans.
To me personally its obvious he’s a charlatan and a manipulator of the highest order, he is the Wizard of Oz, and I think he’s been playing with smoke and mirrors for years, but I guess we wont really find out the truth till the end of the year.
To get investors and publishers,
To “maintain” and “build” the community,
To promote and hype the product and the company,
To gain as much development time as possible,
To extend the time before launch or cancellation,
To pursue other business opportunity’s and obligations,
and to maintain the pretense of a successful and credible company.
Or maybe only some of the above, or maybe non.
I have no interest in “defeating” Tasos nor do I foolishly believe I will have any sort of victory over him, I marvel at his audacity and duplicity , and I’m fascinated and amused by his shenanigans.
To me personally its obvious he’s a charlatan and a manipulator of the highest order, he is the Wizard of Oz, and I think he’s been playing with smoke and mirrors for years, but I guess we wont really find out the truth till the end of the year.
I'm just pointing out that uncovering all of this information doesn't really change anything, nor change my personal views of DarkFall. Not that I hold Adventurine in any particular high standard, but you've got to ask yourself, WHY you just keep asking HOW.
You seem to have no problems finding out how. How Razor Wax went bust, How Tasos may or may not have lied about certain things, or asking How Darkfall will pull off a launch in 2008. Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out.
That in itself holds more weight then finding out what happened to their old company. Because I don't care about that. (Personally I don't care about the project as a whole really, I'm just playing Devils Advocate cause noone rational seems to try)
So ultimately you've given us nothing more then old information about RazorWaxes demise, Tasos's name change, and his possible fibs on his affiliations. What does that have to do with the project though?
We know its self funded.
We know the project is in development.
We know there are a purported 30 developers working on DarkFall.
We know that RazorWax (who supposedly had an early development of the game) Staff merged with Adventurine . (Why did Razorwax go bankrupt years after the merger?)
We know that some indie games can take a longer then usual development time.
We know Adventurine said they have noone to Advertise for them, and an extremely poor Public Relations person (Tasos) who does more then just Public Relations (supposedly)
We know they showed a year old video at a conference a few weeks ago. (albiet it wasn't a major one) But they still believe on an 08 release. Not to mention Tasos mentioned in an update new videos were coming. (I think that was close to 3 weeks ago on his update)
I dunno --- still pretty early to tell whats going to happen.
Considering you said your only playing devils advocate, and you presume to declare that “We already know” a bunch of stuff that seems to be completely contradictory to pretty much all of what I think I know and have tried to demonstrate.
And a bunch of the stuff you say “We already know” is precisely because I found it and posted it here first.
And I already gave a brief list of obvious common sense reasons why they might have been behaving in this way, but your still asking me why they are.
And you have decided that I have only provided “old information” that you apparently don’t consider has anything to do with the project.
And you still seem to believe that Tasos will release that comprehensive game play video he mentioned 2 months ago “soon”.
And you still think its pretty early to tell what’s going to happen to a project after 8 years of development with still no public beta, publishing or launch information / dates, I don’t think there’s really any point in continuing this conversation.
I am sorry maskedweasel, but to me, with statements like these:
"If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah?"
"Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again!"
And especially:
"Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out."
You don't come off as a "rational Devil's Advocate" but rather as a less confrontational than average supporter whose faith is unshakable in the face of any new information. And yes, new information, because none of what Polarization has been posting was previously known, especially the real fate of Razorwax after the Aventurine "merger". So you seek to discount Polarization's finds because he can't find a clear motive, he has speculated on it (and speculate is all anyone can do without mind reading abilities), yet it's not good enough for you. What's good enough for you, however, is taking for granted your speculation as to why they're doing it, and somehow use that speculated end to justify the means.
Faith in the developers notwithstanding, how do you know this "Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out." to be true?
For starters Polarization
"And I already gave a brief list of obvious common sense reasons why they might have been behaving in this way, but your still asking me why they are."
Its all just to prove a point Polar, all I'm saying is that they're doing it for a reason. You gave me possible reasons, ONE of those reasons is that they're trying to launch this game. I don't see how thats tough to understand. The only other actual plausible reason is if they were trying to rip off investors and steal money that way -- which is illegal and punishable by imprisonment.
"nd you have decided that I have only provided “old information” that you apparently don’t consider has anything to do with the project."
Face it Polar, this is old information. It happened years ago, uncovering it now doesn't make it any newer. I don't think it has anything to do with the actual project -- no I don't -- and personally I could care less if Adventurine releases DarkFall or if SOE does after they buy it off them like they did with Sigil and Vanguard. Running out of money has no validity on the actual project bub, thats all I'm saying.
"And you still seem to believe that Tasos will release that comprehensive game play video he mentioned 2 months ago “soon”.
Hey, whether or not we get a video it doesn't bother me -- I'm just repeating what information I have to go on -- and that is basically that they have no PR person or Advertising agent, which usually would be responsible for putting together Trailers and such. Personally I'd like to wait til the end of 08 (not like I have much of a choice) to see how things pan out. I expect you'll do the same whether you like it or not too. If we see a video great, if not, then I guess we'll just keep "waiting" for Darkfall.
And you still think its pretty early to tell what’s going to happen to a project after 8 years of development with still no public beta, publishing or launch information / dates, I don’t think there’s really any point in continuing this conversation.
Well, with a 2008 release date that they claim to be "FIRM" I stand to reason yes, this is too early. Development times really don't mean anything to me... I heard about them shooting a Max Payne movie back in 2003 and I was really excited.. turns out they might shoot it and it will actually come out this year. I'm not holding my breath, but they say its pretty firm too. I'll wait and see --- thats all I'm saying.
SILVARCH buddy,
"I am sorry maskedweasel, but to me, with statements like these:
"If he lied or exaggerated does that really change anything? Who hasn't exaggerated on a resume ah?"
"Master Polar! You have done it sir! You have defeated the dreaded Flampouras and ended his reign of tyranny. That should teach him never to exaggerate again!"
These were both jokes, the first one was a half-joke the second one was a crack at polar cause I thought it was funny -- he single handedly saved the world from a potential liar. Thats funny to me. I like Polar, don't get me wrong, I just feel the way he worded it sounded a little dramatic.
Faith in the developers notwithstanding, how do you know this "Hey they're good questions, but you also have to take into account the WHY they are doing it.. and its purely to try and put this game out." to be true?
How do I know that its true? The same reasons you know its not true. The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally. Either way I'm happy. Even if development goes on for 30 more years I'll be happy.. I'm really not as avid a supporter as you claim --- but for this forum.. and for you Silvarch, I will be.
As I stated before, until the game is no longer in development, launched, sold, or actually confirmed as a hoax all information pertaining to the speculation in regards to darkfall and or its developers means very little to me. I'm a big picture kinda guy. All these little things don't change the big picture for me, maybe if you explain to me exactly how Tasos saying he worked in development for Microsoft when he really brought Bill Gates his coffee really changes that a game named DarkFall is in development and has a suposed release date of 2008 then I would gladly change my stand.
Plus if you guys read all this I'll send you both lollypops.
Fact of the matter is Darkfall will never be what they want it to be... ever..
It's a failure waiting to launch or waiting to be cancelled.
Fact of the matter is Darkfall will never be what they want it to be... ever..
It's a failure waiting to launch or waiting to be cancelled.
They're self funded for the most part, but if they say they're developing a game when in turn they're just trying to lure investors to take their money then.. yeah buddy thats illegal.
Secondly.. I think you misunderstood why I'd be happy if development goes on for another 30 years.... ..... .... mainly cause I don't care if the game releases or not. I'm not waiting by the PC mouse at the ready to click Download when the DF beta comes out. I just don't care.. I'll be happy if it NEVER RELEASES.. I'll also be happy when I get something to eat... and doubly happy if I have sex tonight.
Does that clear it up for ya buddy?
as to your edit.. that I added.
Its not ridiculous to wait for DarkFall to launch or fail... in fact.. your waiting for darkfall right now. You're also waiting for spore, the sun to explode, Batman: The Dark Knight, and dinnertime. Time moves forward, and we wait -- what comes while time passes doesn't really matter if you really look at it.
I realize I'm just some noob poster, but I've been following this Darkfall game for a bit now and the funny thing is, one of the first things that struck me when I looked into it was what an incredible scam this thing could turn out to be.
Basically all you need to do is convince an investor or two to buy into the thing selling them on the idea that they are going to become Blizzard-level wealthy and you can just keep the money flowing in. I mean if true gamers, some with real industry experience, find it understandable that this game isn't released after, what, 7 years in development, how in the world would non-industry investors be able to figure out whether or not it's time to pull the plug.
I'm not saying that that's what's happening with Darkfall, but the fact is there's ABSOLUTELY NO FOOTAGE of a person playing this so-called game... after 7 years! I've seen video of something that may or may not be in-game footage but nothing so far has been anything other than stuff that could have been created in absence of a real game system.
Whatever others might say (including possible Averntine shills - wouldn't put it passed them since employment histories were changed based on posts on this board) Polar, you've done a great job uncovering this information and helping this community see what's going on behind the curtain as far as this game is concerned.
Hmm, where to begin...
Face it Polar, this is old information. It happened years ago, uncovering it now doesn't make it any newer.
I take it you consider discoveries in anthropology, history and hell, physics, old information as well, then. New or old when it pertains to information has nothing to do with how recent the event it covers is, but on previous knowledge of it. This was not widely known before, thus new. Or are you saying you knew of this before Polarization's posts?
Development times really don't mean anything to me
Understood, then we will take your opinion on how it's "too early" or otherwise regarding them as appropriately meaningless.
I don't think it has anything to do with the actual project -- no I don't -- and personally I could care less if Adventurine releases DarkFall or if SOE does after they buy it off them like they did with Sigil and Vanguard. Running out of money has no validity on the actual project bub, thats all I'm saying.
You must mean you couldn't care less, because saying you could care less means that you do care. Running out of money means the project gets canned, or ships as a crippled version of its original vision, as with the example you so kindly provided. That, by the way, has been our point all along and has a lot to do with the project.
How do I know that its true? The same reasons you know its not true. The game is in development, if it ISNT in development then Adventurine is in very big trouble legally.
I don't know anything about the state of the game to be true, hence my doubts and nonconformity with what's been claimed, nor have I ever expressed or implied that I do. The notion that you can derive conclusive evidence and know something must be true simply because the alternative is illegal is extremely naive, especially when there's precedent (illegal activities in the handling of a company by the very same people that own Aventurine). Under that logic it would be inconceivable that people commit crimes, because they're illegal.
All I can think of when I read your post is that you're supporter who doesn't care if they lie, fabricate stuff at a conference, do not care about the community enough to provide solid information about anything, and outright have illegal dealings in the management of a company, or how long they take to do anything because you have very low standards. You're easily convinced (easier than the so called vaportrolls at least) and disregard anything not directly related to the DF project but intimately related to the people involved in it. That's not looking at the big picture. Looking at the big picture means taking everything into account and trying to see how it fits together, and realizing that everything affects everything and determining how it does. The big picture indicates that if they've lied, fabricated stuff about something in public, and have done anything illegal in the management of something, nothing precludes them from having done the same with Aventurine and the DF project. I for one hope for the best, but I expect the worst.
Plus if you guys read all this I'll send you both lollypops.
I'll contact you with a shipping address.
Thanks for giving it a go Silvarch I really appreciate it.
"I take it you consider discoveries in anthropology, history and hell, physics, old information as well, then. New or old when it pertains to information has nothing to do with how recent the event it covers is, but on previous knowledge of it. This was not widely known before, thus new. Or are you saying you knew of this before Polarization's posts?"
I disagree here, mainly because new discoveries in anthropology actually change the outcome of the find greatly. Its like saying this particular tribe was originally believed to never have used a fork, until a fork was found -- this greatly changes that view. I don't see how Razorwax going bankrupt changes the view of how Adventurine is still creating a game called DarkFall. I mean the project isn't clearly defined by a single person, although I will for arguments sake Concede to the terms that Razorwaxes involvement, bakruptcy and dealings may have had its effect on the project at the time, or, perhaps could foreshadow the projects fate, --- but only under the circumstance that its only a supposition and not a definite.
You must mean you couldn't care less, because saying you could care less means that you do care. Running out of money means the project gets canned, or ships as a crippled version of its original vision, as with the example you so kindly provided. That, by the way, has been our point all along and has a lot to do with the project.
Well to say I don't care at all would be incorrect. I care enough to write these lengthy replies, not enough to reserve myself to be DarkFalls last hope for a forumfighter. I like the idea, I'd like to see it come to a happy ending. Personally I feel something will come of it, and I'm actually hoping for a Sigil effect more then anything else. Now it shipping in a critical version of itself would be FANTASTIC, and believe it or not, I think that would be some kind of accomplishment. At least it would be a good starting point for another developer to look at it, and deem whether its worth saving or scrapping. Maybe even a good groundbase for Mortal Online? Hopefully the end of 08 will be a good tell.
I don't know anything about the state of the game to be true, hence my doubts and nonconformity with what's been claimed, nor have I ever expressed or implied that I do. The notion that you can derive conclusive evidence and know something must be true simply because the alternative is illegal is extremely naive, especially when there's precedent (illegal activities in the handling of a company by the very same people that own Aventurine). Under that logic it would be inconceivable that people commit crimes, because they're illegal.
I disagree, I don't confirm or deny that DarkFall is in development primarily because the alternative is illegal. I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development. I'm not saying that they aren't pulling everyones leg.... but I'd prefer innocent until proven guilty instead of the other way around. I'd LIKE to believe that after all this time SOMETHING is in development. So I ask you do you truly believe DarkFall is in development? In the paragraph before you said that the point you and Polar were trying to make is that Darkfall will release but in a shattered state, so is this what you believe or do you believe nothing has been developed at all? Two very different things, two very different outcomes.
You're easily convinced (easier than the so called vaportrolls at least) and disregard anything not directly related to the DF project but intimately related to the people involved in it. That's not looking at the big picture. Looking at the big picture means taking everything into account and trying to see how it fits together, and realizing that everything affects everything and determining how it does. The big picture indicates that if they've lied, fabricated stuff about something in public, and have done anything illegal in the management of something, nothing precludes them from having done the same with Aventurine and the DF project. I for one hope for the best, but I expect the worst.
I'm not easily convinced of anything, and this isn't me trying to convince you personally that DarkFall will swoop in and save the day. Darkfall is the only one that can convince you of that. And I'm in a very different situation because I, Myself, have ultimate patience ... because if the game doesn't come out its not going to hurt me .. I don't want it as much as others, so its easy for me not to feel cheated when they don't release a video or update every week. I just like to hear the information as it comes.
As for the big picture... if I haven't made myself clear yet, the big picture to me is just the outcome of this game. Simply, and justly. Going bankrupt to me just means the games probably just been delayed and moved to another developer. If its the same Developers, yeah, thats something more to worry about, but I can tell you that if it is, theres a very good chance a lawsuit will come of that. Its like a mystery, and I want you to be honest..... truthfully honest with me. Do you know more about the games development than I do? Do you know as a fact that this game will not launch? If possible provide proof if your answers are yes .. but please be honest.
With unknown information there always leaves room for hope. I want this so I hope. And it never hurts to want something and be excited about it. I don't feel bad of mock them if fanbois get mislead... why should they be hurt for hoping this company stays true to their word? For all this arguing it boils down to what you can prove, and right now, if neither of us can prove anything, then this games still go at the end of 08.
P.S. Don't forget to put the flavor of lolly you want.. very important
The translation posted in the other thread where the article is mentioned is pretty accurate.
For all this arguing it boils down to what you can prove, and right now, if neither of us can prove anything, then this games still go at the end of 08.
Why would it boil down to this? Why wouldn't it boil down to past experience and whether or not previous "promises" have been kept?
Which, in that case, means the game will not appear in '08... or '09... etc.
Okay, let's see...
I disagree that it's not new information. To put it simply, if you didn't know something and you're informed of it, it's new information, regardless if your conclusions change or not. It does not have to challenge generally accepted views to be new, it only has to be previously unknown.
I wouldn't hope for a Sigil outcome, that was disastrous for all the parties involved, and the developers got seriously burned.
I don't understand this statement : "I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development."
Innocent until proven guilty is not definite nor conclusive evidence of a game in development. It only means it's not certain they're scamming or doing anything illegal until proven. Whether they're making a game or what state the game is actually in, or if they're scamming and doing anything illegal, is just speculation, but they're all equally valid. All Polarization did was show evidence of their previous dealings, if not outright lies (Razorwax merged, Tasos' credentials, etc), and make conjectures based on those. You reject those assumptions by replacing them with some of your own without even showing circumstantial evidence to back them up, just faith. Faith that they're innocent and not guilty.
I personally believe they have something, but that something isn't close to the DF they've promised. Others believe they have nothing at all. Unfortunately they both fall under vaporware. The shared point is that, one way or the other, DF is vaporware. It's just an opinion, however, and you can disagree. Time will tell.
Looking at just the outcome of the game is not looking at a big picture. I believe there's some confusion in the usage of the expression. If you don't really care about the details surrounding it, only if the game is released or not, you can't possibly claim to be looking at the big picture. The final picture, maybe, but certainly not the big picture.
I don't know if I know more about game development than you do, I only know one side of the inequality. I don't know what you know. I don't know anything about the true state of the game, as I've said before. If you do know something factual, would you please share it with us so we can stop assuming and start knowing? If you don't, then you can't discount or state as meaningless anyone else's assumptions without supporting evidence, especially when they show verifiable evidence themselves to support their assumptions.
Maskedweasel, I don’t want to appear rude but like I said , I wont be continuing the conversation with you if by your own admission you are only playing devils advocate and your dismissing most or everything I have found recently as not being relevant in one way or another or anything else that is known about this company and its project.
I think Its rather pointless to be continuing that conversation with yourself, and you will be doing so until you can actually provide something tangible (excluding Tasos’s words or your own) that supports your own apparently rather positive and optimist faith based speculation about the potential or possibilities you consider this project might achieve at some time in the future.
If I'm not mistaken, the main point of concern in relation to Tasos's interview, is his past experience. But there is no way any of us can verify this information (other than asking Tasos directly
)
But I have already proven beyond reasonable doubt that Tasos never worked on Age of Empires, Ashersons Call, Messiah or for Microsoft, Turbine, Ensemble Studios or Shiney Entertainament.
Because his name does not even appear as even an intern or a tester on any of the credits for any of those games or from the people credited from the company’s involved in their creation.
Sorry, but you've proven that he wasn't listed in the credits of those projects. If you're going to try to discredit someone to the brink of slander, call the companies and get HR to verify employment. Credits do not equal employment records.
Sorry, but you've proven that he wasn't listed in the credits of those projects. If you're going to try to discredit someone to the brink of slander, call the companies and get HR to verify employment. Credits do not equal employment records.
Come on now, lets get reasonable. We dont need to call any HR departments, because we dont really care if he was the front desk receptionist at the game studio. The FACT is, he didnt even warrant credit as a freaking intern. His contribution to any of those projects were AT BEST so insignificant he went unlisted in the credits.
He was giving this info at a conference on games! The very clear insinuation is that he had some sort of significant role. Clearly he did not.
This is the same guy that claims he was badly misquoted, yet he CONFIRMED the information to the source, with only a change of his role at Aventurine.
I honestly have a hard time believing how gullible some people are...but I try to remember that I was once wet behind the ears too. (this comment not directed at anyone in particular, but a general observation)
How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity.
All devs / people who contribute in any meaningful way in a games development would get listed in the credits.. They even list the testers and ' special ' contributers. Tasos is nowhere to be found in any and so it is obvious he had nothing to do with any of those games. He was just trying to pad his image in an area oblivious to what he and Darkfall are all about.
There are millions of people who worship some book written thousands of years ago by a bunch of guys with nothing better to do.It's not that hard to believe that there are a few hundred idiots following this game and eating up all the nonsense the "devs" throw at them.