Here we go again. Mythic only stupid devs don't learn from their mistakes. You did the exact same thing with DAoC and guess what, 7-8 years later the classes are still not balanced to any degree.
Blizzard was smart, only introducing a few classes, NOT 24.
Who knows, Mythic might shock the heck out of us and deliever half way decent class balance, but I have my doubts, as they could not do it in DAoC.
They should immediately drop at least 8 of the classes, even 16 is a stretch at release.
Remember Wow was primarily pve so the pvp was not a significant factor, WAR is pvp first and no balance means fotm classes that everyone herds to.
I just hope we see a miracle from Mythic, otherwise everyone will be disappointed again in another MMO company.
Remember, Mythic's response to fotm classes is to nuke them into oblivion. Once Mythic decides to nerf they almost always make the class unplayable.
you shouldn't try to justify things with warhammer lore when you don't know the lore. there arn't many diffrent orders of knights for the empire. hell, the brits only had 4 orders of knights, and they are the... knights faction. (I take that back, they arn't diffrent orders of knights, just levels on their quest to the grail or ownership of land)
We can't base it too much on Warhammer because that was a game of armies! mass forces against each other. players don't want to be archer #19 or skink #46. and very few armies in warhammer contain more than a handfull of wizards, large armies. small ones are very limited in in their choice of lords and heroes and such and they'd be lucky to have even 1.
In a real Warhammer army for the empire? i'd only expect to see knights of the blazing sun. they were great strong troops, but never the focus. I don't see how you could get the focus of the empire army in an MMO unless you wanted to let people play as... cannons.
The lore is deep, the units diverse. But its not based on people playing a single unit, so a lot of things have to change.
and no, empire doesn't have access to all those schools of magic. each type of wizard tends to have a very limited choice of magic. with slaan toad lords having the largest pool to pull from if I can remember correctly. but my Woodelf army can't touch high magic, so why should these silly empire wizards be able to?
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Sounds like someone over at Mythic played AC2. It's funny to me that one of the big reasons people didn't like AC2 later in life was because of the number of classes. For those that don't know, each of the 3 races (eventually 4 and a drudge) had unique classes. Each race had 2 melee classes, 2 ranged, 2 caster. There were overlaps between classes but each and every class was unique. It was the best system out there and would be today if it hadn't been screwed over by MS. Oh well... another topic.
I'm glad another company thought that was a good idea, gives me some hope for WAR.
I don't get it to be honest. Don't other games have a relatively similar job system? for example, in WoW only certain classes can be certain professions, not all races can be everything. I noticed this in EQ2 and I believe even DAoC, heck I believe LOTRO and DDO has this too. The only difference is that the other MMO's decided to expand more professions to other races, but again, this isn't to say that it isn't all THAT different from what WAR is trying to do... or am I missing something here?
I'm also not very sure to get it. Besides what you already wrote, what about i.e. AoC? Only Stygian race for example can be necromancer or demonologist. However many are shared by other races. In LOTRO also only humans can be all possible classes, but it is true, that many are shared among races.
you shouldn't try to justify things with warhammer lore when you don't know the lore. there arn't many diffrent orders of knights for the empire. hell, the brits only had 4 orders of knights, and they are the... knights faction. (I take that back, they arn't diffrent orders of knights, just levels on their quest to the grail or ownership of land)
We can't base it too much on Warhammer because that was a game of armies! mass forces against each other. players don't want to be archer #19 or skink #46. and very few armies in warhammer contain more than a handfull of wizards, large armies. small ones are very limited in in their choice of lords and heroes and such and they'd be lucky to have even 1.
In a real Warhammer army for the empire? i'd only expect to see knights of the blazing sun. they were great strong troops, but never the focus. I don't see how you could get the focus of the empire army in an MMO unless you wanted to let people play as... cannons.
The lore is deep, the units diverse. But its not based on people playing a single unit, so a lot of things have to change.
and no, empire doesn't have access to all those schools of magic. each type of wizard tends to have a very limited choice of magic. with slaan toad lords having the largest pool to pull from if I can remember correctly. but my Woodelf army can't touch high magic, so why should these silly empire wizards be able to?
Well I did point out that I dont know the warhammer lore all that well didnt I. That doesnt mean I cant voice some thoughts I am having about the topic though does it.
But thanks for the information though as it cleared a few things up for me. For example I didnt know that the empire only had access to fire magic......I was sure that they had more schools of magic than that but I must be wrong. Same goes for the knightly orders and priests too. My gripes have been pushed aside :-)
Here we go again. Mythic only stupid devs don't learn from their mistakes. You did the exact same thing with DAoC and guess what, 7-8 years later the classes are still not balanced to any degree. Blizzard was smart, only introducing a few classes, NOT 24. Who knows, Mythic might shock the heck out of us and deliever half way decent class balance, but I have my doubts, as they could not do it in DAoC. They should immediately drop at least 8 of the classes, even 16 is a stretch at release. Remember Wow was primarily pve so the pvp was not a significant factor, WAR is pvp first and no balance means fotm classes that everyone herds to. I just hope we see a miracle from Mythic, otherwise everyone will be disappointed again in another MMO company. Remember, Mythic's response to fotm classes is to nuke them into oblivion. Once Mythic decides to nerf they almost always make the class unplayable.
They've really streamlined what they did with DAoC in WAR. While they have 24 classes, they have 4 archetypes, and there are pairs of classes that mimic eachother, yet are still unique.
i.e. Bright Wizard and Sorceress are both RDPS classes that have a guage that builds up with the more magic you cast that can damage your character if you use too many powerful spells.
Or the fact that there are 6 healing classes, but two are mimiced for melee, and two are mimiced for range, and the other two... well they're mimiced but in what seems like a different way. Warrior Priest and Disciple for melee, the shaman and archmage for ranged, and the zealot and runepriest for what seems like buffs/debuffs.
Having mimics, and also having very straight forward archetypes will go a loooooong way in helping class balance be achieved easier. With DAoC you have a ton of unique classes that don't mirror and aren't in any specific archetype. (At least not to my knowledge)
It makes testing easier and balance easier also because when you play the class you can ask yourself "Does it fit the correct role?"
EDIT: To neonwire. The Empire has access to all 8 winds of magic, but they can only be proficient in one per person.
There are 8 colleges of magic in the Empire. some examples being Bright Wizards, Amethyst Wizards, Jade Wizards, etc. etc. you can find it all on the games workshop website under the empire section.
The point he was trying to make is Bright Wizards ONLY use Fire magic, while other colleges ONLY use their college of magic. They're not able to do what the elves do which is that one person can theoretically use all 8 winds of magic.
There's already been concept art of wizards from the other colleges (obviously as NPCs), they just chose to use Bright Wizards because of their unique look and feel. I mean just look at them. They bleed of badassery.
Also there are other priests and other knightly orders. I can't think of all their names as well, but the Knights of the Blazing sun who worship the goddess myrmidia (i think that's how you spell it) are very tactical and exact in everything they do throughout their life, so they are the closest to what people expect from a tank/knight character.
There are also other priesthoods. I can't think of those either off the top of my head. (not a lore buff) but I know they exist.
Again just browse games workshops site and you can find miniatures of most of the classes that are in the game, or find some info online about the fantasy role playing game they have, because some of the lore is pulled from that as well. Then while you're at it you can read some novels, because they're pulling lore from there too. Basically they're drawing from the entire IP and not just one aspect of it.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
Question: Why have set classes at all? This, I think, is part of what discourages me from playing most mainstream games. From the time I create my character I'm stuck in my ways, not being able to distribute attributes AT ALL and not really choosing the majority of my abilities.
WoW has a trait system that allows a bit of character customization, but you realize that it's more of the illusion of customization because depending on what you want to do, there really is only one good way to go about it. So then it comes down to your "skill" playing the game, and games like WoW require next to no skill. As long as you can operate 3 buttons and a mouse, you'll be able to compete with the big boys... unless... your gear sucks. So what does PvP in a set class system come down to? The ability to spend hours and hours grinding for the best gear, with which it becomes little competition as you smash those with inferior armor.
Many mainstream MMORPGs employ exactly the same system as WoW, because it's so popular and lucrative (as long as you can come up with more and more perpetual diversions). However, this system is dull and lifeless, and anyone can pickup and play WoW well within hours, which is the entire time it takes to develop the strategies you will use in every PvP match you participate in. You may as well be part of the programming.
What I would like to see is more MMORPGs that employ systems similar to pre-CU SWG and AO, which were so incredibly popular because your character could fill any roll in the game, and change at any time. I admit, I am one of those who reroll nearly every class in the game simply for the diversity (because I can't stand the monotony). I never had to do that in SWG (I had 3 characters at most) because their system allowed me the freedom to choose what I wanted to do and change my character accordingly, without a hampering level system.
But perhaps this is only me, and the droves of sheep in the US would rather fall into a monotonous system than have the ability to choose.
That is only the start....it gets deeper still with the "masteries" within in each career. Each "career" (class) has 3 masteries. Of these, a player can choose how much or how little to delve into each. Like they may just want to specialize straight in one mastery path. Or they might want up to a point in one but then a little of another line too. It is still being worked out, but makes for some GREAT customization!
Indeed, no 2 players of the same class will have identical abilities, it's almost as if they have abolished the "cookie cutter" builds of certain other mmo's. (Good job as well).
I need to do more reading on this too, because I'm too jaded as an MMO vet to take any company's word for anything.
For example, WoW offers a wide range of customization for each class too -- but they're still very much cookie-cutter because most of the combinations will not make you nearly as effective as a select few. So it was like trying to avoid being cookie cutter, by adding more cookies.
I'm anxious to see how Mythic works all of this out, and whether they can create a game that lets more than a few combinations stand out.
That is only the start....it gets deeper still with the "masteries" within in each career. Each "career" (class) has 3 masteries. Of these, a player can choose how much or how little to delve into each. Like they may just want to specialize straight in one mastery path. Or they might want up to a point in one but then a little of another line too. It is still being worked out, but makes for some GREAT customization!
Indeed, no 2 players of the same class will have identical abilities, it's almost as if they have abolished the "cookie cutter" builds of certain other mmo's. (Good job as well).
I need to do more reading on this too, because I'm too jaded as an MMO vet to take any company's word for anything.
For example, WoW offers a wide range of customization for each class too -- but they're still very much cookie-cutter because most of the combinations will not make you nearly as effective as a select few. So it was like trying to avoid being cookie cutter, by adding more cookies.
I'm anxious to see how Mythic works all of this out, and whether they can create a game that lets more than a few combinations stand out.
Yeah but WoW's problem was that once you chose a spec, you performed very poorly in anything BUT that spec. A prot pally can't heal as well as a holy pally, probably not even as well as a regular pally. All they can do is AoE tank. But with WAR, class masteries won't be that sharply defined. A warrior priest that puts his points into damage will still be able to heal semi-effectively...not as good as a warrior priest who chose a healing path of course, but nothing like the WoW example.
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Here we go again. Mythic only stupid devs don't learn from their mistakes. You did the exact same thing with DAoC and guess what, 7-8 years later the classes are still not balanced to any degree. Blizzard was smart, only introducing a few classes, NOT 24. Who knows, Mythic might shock the heck out of us and deliever half way decent class balance, but I have my doubts, as they could not do it in DAoC. They should immediately drop at least 8 of the classes, even 16 is a stretch at release. Remember Wow was primarily pve so the pvp was not a significant factor, WAR is pvp first and no balance means fotm classes that everyone herds to. I just hope we see a miracle from Mythic, otherwise everyone will be disappointed again in another MMO company. Remember, Mythic's response to fotm classes is to nuke them into oblivion. Once Mythic decides to nerf they almost always make the class unplayable.
They've really streamlined what they did with DAoC in WAR. While they have 24 classes, they have 4 archetypes, and there are pairs of classes that mimic eachother, yet are still unique.
i.e. Bright Wizard and Sorceress are both RDPS classes that have a guage that builds up with the more magic you cast that can damage your character if you use too many powerful spells.
Or the fact that there are 6 healing classes, but two are mimiced for melee, and two are mimiced for range, and the other two... well they're mimiced but in what seems like a different way. Warrior Priest and Disciple for melee, the shaman and archmage for ranged, and the zealot and runepriest for what seems like buffs/debuffs.
Having mimics, and also having very straight forward archetypes will go a loooooong way in helping class balance be achieved easier. With DAoC you have a ton of unique classes that don't mirror and aren't in any specific archetype. (At least not to my knowledge)
It makes testing easier and balance easier also because when you play the class you can ask yourself "Does it fit the correct role?"
EDIT: To neonwire. The Empire has access to all 8 winds of magic, but they can only be proficient in one per person.
There are 8 colleges of magic in the Empire. some examples being Bright Wizards, Amethyst Wizards, Jade Wizards, etc. etc. you can find it all on the games workshop website under the empire section.
The point he was trying to make is Bright Wizards ONLY use Fire magic, while other colleges ONLY use their college of magic. They're not able to do what the elves do which is that one person can theoretically use all 8 winds of magic.
There's already been concept art of wizards from the other colleges (obviously as NPCs), they just chose to use Bright Wizards because of their unique look and feel. I mean just look at them. They bleed of badassery.
Also there are other priests and other knightly orders. I can't think of all their names as well, but the Knights of the Blazing sun who worship the goddess myrmidia (i think that's how you spell it) are very tactical and exact in everything they do throughout their life, so they are the closest to what people expect from a tank/knight character.
There are also other priesthoods. I can't think of those either off the top of my head. (not a lore buff) but I know they exist.
Again just browse games workshops site and you can find miniatures of most of the classes that are in the game, or find some info online about the fantasy role playing game they have, because some of the lore is pulled from that as well. Then while you're at it you can read some novels, because they're pulling lore from there too. Basically they're drawing from the entire IP and not just one aspect of it.
Hmmm......so I did have it right first time then. Thanks for the info. Basicly the devs have decided all players in the empire who want to be a mage WILL be a fire mage, so like I said before.....ummm......lots of fire wizards running about = Severe lack of choice. Yes they are badass but I would prefer "interesting" to "badass". Afterall who cares if you look badass when every other mage on your side is the same as you. Also anything looks "badass" depending on your perspective. It reminds me of the old days when i used to play geeky pen & paper roleplaying games and at times would deliberately play a character that wasnt outwardly amazing cos I got so tired of listening to everyone else trying to be "the coolest". Afterall people trying to be the badass only impress themselves - the people around them dont give a rats ass as they are to busy being the badass themselves (sigh).
Oh I fancy being a nature mage.....a kind of druid type.....nope cant be one! How about an illusionist....nope! anything other than fire? nope. Oh well.
Oh and I have read some warhammer novels so i do know a bit about the lore. I just wasnt keyed up on who could use which schools of magic.
Whatever, as long as the PVP is more engaging than WOW or AOC, then I'm cool with it. The mechanics of most MMOs thus far (at least the mainstream ones) has hinged on gear bonuses rather than player skill. Here's hoping WAR brings some of that back into the mix. If not, there's always Darkfall
"What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!" ~Best. Movie. Ever.
When they say the first take on the careers was too complex, was it anything close to the fantasy roleplay system? Which typically started as something like a simple woodcutter or academic, then they would branch out into more sophistacted roles such as brigand, captain, judicial champion or pit fighter and of course if you are a dwarf the slayer careers. There was also non-combat careers like demagogue, charlatan all revolving around manipulating innoncent folks (being non-combat it is easy to see why these wouldnt fit the current career formats). The point is they all relied on prerequisite skills to be learned before one could progress from a base career to the more 'high brow' stuff. Typically it would take half a decade just to get to wizard rank 1 in the pnp game (unless the dm was kind with exp). I can see why the system will never make it into an mmo type format, although maybe a platform like the 4th edition d&d it would work. Anyway looking forward to the next part of the interview
Yeah, I totally loved that system as well...
However since the MMORPG is squarely based on TT portion of the IP rather than RPG one (I believe it's even been given over to a separate company while GW concentrates on the TT), the existing career system is OK.
A WHFRPG career system would be awesome but then it wouldn't be all about WAR since a lot of those classes aren't purely combat ones. It would be better suited for a more classical MMO rather than a RvR one. Oh well...
Actually they have stated that WAR is based on all of the Warhammer IP, that includes the TT, RPG, Books, etc. While it is easy to see the comparison with the TT since it is the most well known, Mythic is drawing upon all the lore that Warhammer has to offer.
Also for class balance, they only need to balance the archetypes verses one another, so it should help with the balancing act. Another thing that will help with class balance is the fact that the game is based heavily around RvR, or PvP. So Mythic can just balance the classes against each other and then change the mobs and NPCs in relation to the players. In PvE intensive games, like WoW for example, it is harder to balance classes against each other because skills are balanced against NPCs and Mobs first and foremost. So you end up with useless skills in PvP, like taunt. Yet in WAR they will have a taunt and it will work in PvP because the skill was created for use in PvP, and they can just tailor mobs and NPCs to react a certain way to that skill.
Yes the class system is similar to DAoC, but that should be a given since WAR is being made by the people who made DAoC. And I dont think this system is similar to WoW or EQ or LOTRO, because while you only have a limited selection of classes per race, all the races still pull from the same pool of classes. Whereas in WAR every class is different, and not only in name, the only similarities between classes will be in their archetype.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
The problem with character customization in WAR is they are limited by a methodology that was created for board type games, hence you have built in limitations. Looks like Mythic is addressing this as best they can.
This is NOT the sandbox game everyone is looking for, but it does seem to be something far deeper than AoC. Whether it is Wow quality remains to be seen.
It really cracks me up when people bash Wow yet, not one game to date has even come close to being considered a competitor.
"There are 24 careers in total: four for each of the six races in the game. This in and of itself is a unique decision. More traditional MMOs like World of Warcraft don’t tie their classes to their races."
I quoted this from the article. As a long time DAoC player, I must correct you on this, because I feel like DAoC isn't getting credit when credit is due. While this system is unique, it has also been done by a "traditional game." That game is DAoC of course. Each realm has a set of classes and those classes can only be taken by certain races. It brings the whole "does it make sense for this race to be this class" thing into the works, and I like it.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
That is only the start....it gets deeper still with the "masteries" within in each career. Each "career" (class) has 3 masteries. Of these, a player can choose how much or how little to delve into each. Like they may just want to specialize straight in one mastery path. Or they might want up to a point in one but then a little of another line too. It is still being worked out, but makes for some GREAT customization!
DAoC had the same thing. There were 3 different spec. lines you could put points into. The problem is that it wasn't friendly to splashing points into whatever spec you want, due to the game mechanics needing a certain overall point value in order to make a hit with that spell or ability. For example, a Fire Wizard who specializes 32 ranks out of 50 in the Fire line will hit like a lvl 32 when he is 50. There are ways in-game to artificially increase the value of that spec line through gear and realm rank.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Question: Why have set classes at all? This, I think, is part of what discourages me from playing most mainstream games. From the time I create my character I'm stuck in my ways, not being able to distribute attributes AT ALL and not really choosing the majority of my abilities. WoW has a trait system that allows a bit of character customization, but you realize that it's more of the illusion of customization because depending on what you want to do, there really is only one good way to go about it. So then it comes down to your "skill" playing the game, and games like WoW require next to no skill. As long as you can operate 3 buttons and a mouse, you'll be able to compete with the big boys... unless... your gear sucks. So what does PvP in a set class system come down to? The ability to spend hours and hours grinding for the best gear, with which it becomes little competition as you smash those with inferior armor. Many mainstream MMORPGs employ exactly the same system as WoW, because it's so popular and lucrative (as long as you can come up with more and more perpetual diversions). However, this system is dull and lifeless, and anyone can pickup and play WoW well within hours, which is the entire time it takes to develop the strategies you will use in every PvP match you participate in. You may as well be part of the programming. What I would like to see is more MMORPGs that employ systems similar to pre-CU SWG and AO, which were so incredibly popular because your character could fill any roll in the game, and change at any time. I admit, I am one of those who reroll nearly every class in the game simply for the diversity (because I can't stand the monotony). I never had to do that in SWG (I had 3 characters at most) because their system allowed me the freedom to choose what I wanted to do and change my character accordingly, without a hampering level system. But perhaps this is only me, and the droves of sheep in the US would rather fall into a monotonous system than have the ability to choose.
I really am not a rude person, but are you serious? Please tell me your are not so ignorant to have no respect for the lore of particular IP's. I am a huge fan of skill- based systems, as you are. I thought Pre-NGE SWG was great. However, I also know that WAR would not be WAR anymore withough classes, because the Warhammer Universe was designed around them, just as WoW was designed with classes in mind. Star Wars on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense to have classes, because it was based on reality a lot more. People in reality have many different skills and rarely master more than 2-3. Lord of the Rings online is a perfect example of a game that used classes when a skill system was more appropriate, however, WAR needs classes or it will be violating the lore.
Think about that.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
This article had me LMAO. WTF is sooo unique and interesting about a race, class system. This has been done 10X over, do i really need to name off the games. OH WAIT!! It isn't the same as WoW, so it must be unique and interesting. LOL!!!!
/cut paste race, class
How about letting any race play any profession. That might make me like it again.
This article had me LMAO. WTF is sooo unique and interesting about a race, class system. This has been done 10X over, do i really need to name off the games. OH WAIT!! It isn't the same as WoW, so it must be unique and interesting. LOL!!!! /cut paste race, class How about letting any race play any profession. That might make me like it again.
Err, well. Since not everyone knows every game there was, it would help if you named at least 10 so we can easily verify your statement.
Regarding the "let every race play every profession", though it has been stated before:
High Elf Squig Herder? Dwarven Chosen? Empire Witch Elf?
This article had me LMAO. WTF is sooo unique and interesting about a race, class system. This has been done 10X over, do i really need to name off the games. OH WAIT!! It isn't the same as WoW, so it must be unique and interesting. LOL!!!! /cut paste race, class How about letting any race play any profession. That might make me like it again.
Every race has a tank, rogue, mage and healer. However they all play differently. So please list those games that is like that. And games like WoW and EQ2 and not like that at all.
This article had me LMAO. WTF is sooo unique and interesting about a race, class system. This has been done 10X over, do i really need to name off the games. OH WAIT!! It isn't the same as WoW, so it must be unique and interesting. LOL!!!! /cut paste race, class How about letting any race play any profession. That might make me like it again.
Err, well. Since not everyone knows every game there was, it would help if you named at least 10 so we can easily verify your statement.
Regarding the "let every race play every profession", though it has been stated before:
High Elf Squig Herder? Dwarven Chosen? Empire Witch Elf?
Originally posted by infrared1 Originally posted by Isokonari High Elf Squig Herder? Dwarven Chosen? Empire Witch Elf?
I'm kinda partial to the Empire Witch elf thingy. Nice I could list reasons why this is the dumbest thing said in the entire thread, but instead I'm just going to call you out as a troll.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
Comments
Here we go again. Mythic only stupid devs don't learn from their mistakes. You did the exact same thing with DAoC and guess what, 7-8 years later the classes are still not balanced to any degree.
Blizzard was smart, only introducing a few classes, NOT 24.
Who knows, Mythic might shock the heck out of us and deliever half way decent class balance, but I have my doubts, as they could not do it in DAoC.
They should immediately drop at least 8 of the classes, even 16 is a stretch at release.
Remember Wow was primarily pve so the pvp was not a significant factor, WAR is pvp first and no balance means fotm classes that everyone herds to.
I just hope we see a miracle from Mythic, otherwise everyone will be disappointed again in another MMO company.
Remember, Mythic's response to fotm classes is to nuke them into oblivion. Once Mythic decides to nerf they almost always make the class unplayable.
you shouldn't try to justify things with warhammer lore when you don't know the lore. there arn't many diffrent orders of knights for the empire. hell, the brits only had 4 orders of knights, and they are the... knights faction. (I take that back, they arn't diffrent orders of knights, just levels on their quest to the grail or ownership of land)
We can't base it too much on Warhammer because that was a game of armies! mass forces against each other. players don't want to be archer #19 or skink #46. and very few armies in warhammer contain more than a handfull of wizards, large armies. small ones are very limited in in their choice of lords and heroes and such and they'd be lucky to have even 1.
In a real Warhammer army for the empire? i'd only expect to see knights of the blazing sun. they were great strong troops, but never the focus. I don't see how you could get the focus of the empire army in an MMO unless you wanted to let people play as... cannons.
The lore is deep, the units diverse. But its not based on people playing a single unit, so a lot of things have to change.
and no, empire doesn't have access to all those schools of magic. each type of wizard tends to have a very limited choice of magic. with slaan toad lords having the largest pool to pull from if I can remember correctly. but my Woodelf army can't touch high magic, so why should these silly empire wizards be able to?
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Sounds like someone over at Mythic played AC2. It's funny to me that one of the big reasons people didn't like AC2 later in life was because of the number of classes. For those that don't know, each of the 3 races (eventually 4 and a drudge) had unique classes. Each race had 2 melee classes, 2 ranged, 2 caster. There were overlaps between classes but each and every class was unique. It was the best system out there and would be today if it hadn't been screwed over by MS. Oh well... another topic.
I'm glad another company thought that was a good idea, gives me some hope for WAR.
I'm also not very sure to get it. Besides what you already wrote, what about i.e. AoC? Only Stygian race for example can be necromancer or demonologist. However many are shared by other races. In LOTRO also only humans can be all possible classes, but it is true, that many are shared among races.
Well I did point out that I dont know the warhammer lore all that well didnt I. That doesnt mean I cant voice some thoughts I am having about the topic though does it.
But thanks for the information though as it cleared a few things up for me. For example I didnt know that the empire only had access to fire magic......I was sure that they had more schools of magic than that but I must be wrong. Same goes for the knightly orders and priests too. My gripes have been pushed aside :-)
They've really streamlined what they did with DAoC in WAR. While they have 24 classes, they have 4 archetypes, and there are pairs of classes that mimic eachother, yet are still unique.
i.e. Bright Wizard and Sorceress are both RDPS classes that have a guage that builds up with the more magic you cast that can damage your character if you use too many powerful spells.
Or the fact that there are 6 healing classes, but two are mimiced for melee, and two are mimiced for range, and the other two... well they're mimiced but in what seems like a different way. Warrior Priest and Disciple for melee, the shaman and archmage for ranged, and the zealot and runepriest for what seems like buffs/debuffs.
Having mimics, and also having very straight forward archetypes will go a loooooong way in helping class balance be achieved easier. With DAoC you have a ton of unique classes that don't mirror and aren't in any specific archetype. (At least not to my knowledge)
It makes testing easier and balance easier also because when you play the class you can ask yourself "Does it fit the correct role?"
EDIT: To neonwire. The Empire has access to all 8 winds of magic, but they can only be proficient in one per person.
There are 8 colleges of magic in the Empire. some examples being Bright Wizards, Amethyst Wizards, Jade Wizards, etc. etc. you can find it all on the games workshop website under the empire section.
The point he was trying to make is Bright Wizards ONLY use Fire magic, while other colleges ONLY use their college of magic. They're not able to do what the elves do which is that one person can theoretically use all 8 winds of magic.
There's already been concept art of wizards from the other colleges (obviously as NPCs), they just chose to use Bright Wizards because of their unique look and feel. I mean just look at them. They bleed of badassery.
Also there are other priests and other knightly orders. I can't think of all their names as well, but the Knights of the Blazing sun who worship the goddess myrmidia (i think that's how you spell it) are very tactical and exact in everything they do throughout their life, so they are the closest to what people expect from a tank/knight character.
There are also other priesthoods. I can't think of those either off the top of my head. (not a lore buff) but I know they exist.
Again just browse games workshops site and you can find miniatures of most of the classes that are in the game, or find some info online about the fantasy role playing game they have, because some of the lore is pulled from that as well. Then while you're at it you can read some novels, because they're pulling lore from there too.
Basically they're drawing from the entire IP and not just one aspect of it.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
Question: Why have set classes at all? This, I think, is part of what discourages me from playing most mainstream games. From the time I create my character I'm stuck in my ways, not being able to distribute attributes AT ALL and not really choosing the majority of my abilities.
WoW has a trait system that allows a bit of character customization, but you realize that it's more of the illusion of customization because depending on what you want to do, there really is only one good way to go about it. So then it comes down to your "skill" playing the game, and games like WoW require next to no skill. As long as you can operate 3 buttons and a mouse, you'll be able to compete with the big boys... unless... your gear sucks. So what does PvP in a set class system come down to? The ability to spend hours and hours grinding for the best gear, with which it becomes little competition as you smash those with inferior armor.
Many mainstream MMORPGs employ exactly the same system as WoW, because it's so popular and lucrative (as long as you can come up with more and more perpetual diversions). However, this system is dull and lifeless, and anyone can pickup and play WoW well within hours, which is the entire time it takes to develop the strategies you will use in every PvP match you participate in. You may as well be part of the programming.
What I would like to see is more MMORPGs that employ systems similar to pre-CU SWG and AO, which were so incredibly popular because your character could fill any roll in the game, and change at any time. I admit, I am one of those who reroll nearly every class in the game simply for the diversity (because I can't stand the monotony). I never had to do that in SWG (I had 3 characters at most) because their system allowed me the freedom to choose what I wanted to do and change my character accordingly, without a hampering level system.
But perhaps this is only me, and the droves of sheep in the US would rather fall into a monotonous system than have the ability to choose.
- Theguruofreason
Indeed, no 2 players of the same class will have identical abilities, it's almost as if they have abolished the "cookie cutter" builds of certain other mmo's. (Good job as well).
I need to do more reading on this too, because I'm too jaded as an MMO vet to take any company's word for anything.
For example, WoW offers a wide range of customization for each class too -- but they're still very much cookie-cutter because most of the combinations will not make you nearly as effective as a select few. So it was like trying to avoid being cookie cutter, by adding more cookies.
I'm anxious to see how Mythic works all of this out, and whether they can create a game that lets more than a few combinations stand out.
Indeed, no 2 players of the same class will have identical abilities, it's almost as if they have abolished the "cookie cutter" builds of certain other mmo's. (Good job as well).
I need to do more reading on this too, because I'm too jaded as an MMO vet to take any company's word for anything.
For example, WoW offers a wide range of customization for each class too -- but they're still very much cookie-cutter because most of the combinations will not make you nearly as effective as a select few. So it was like trying to avoid being cookie cutter, by adding more cookies.
I'm anxious to see how Mythic works all of this out, and whether they can create a game that lets more than a few combinations stand out.
Yeah but WoW's problem was that once you chose a spec, you performed very poorly in anything BUT that spec. A prot pally can't heal as well as a holy pally, probably not even as well as a regular pally. All they can do is AoE tank. But with WAR, class masteries won't be that sharply defined. A warrior priest that puts his points into damage will still be able to heal semi-effectively...not as good as a warrior priest who chose a healing path of course, but nothing like the WoW example.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
They've really streamlined what they did with DAoC in WAR. While they have 24 classes, they have 4 archetypes, and there are pairs of classes that mimic eachother, yet are still unique.
i.e. Bright Wizard and Sorceress are both RDPS classes that have a guage that builds up with the more magic you cast that can damage your character if you use too many powerful spells.
Or the fact that there are 6 healing classes, but two are mimiced for melee, and two are mimiced for range, and the other two... well they're mimiced but in what seems like a different way. Warrior Priest and Disciple for melee, the shaman and archmage for ranged, and the zealot and runepriest for what seems like buffs/debuffs.
Having mimics, and also having very straight forward archetypes will go a loooooong way in helping class balance be achieved easier. With DAoC you have a ton of unique classes that don't mirror and aren't in any specific archetype. (At least not to my knowledge)
It makes testing easier and balance easier also because when you play the class you can ask yourself "Does it fit the correct role?"
EDIT: To neonwire. The Empire has access to all 8 winds of magic, but they can only be proficient in one per person.
There are 8 colleges of magic in the Empire. some examples being Bright Wizards, Amethyst Wizards, Jade Wizards, etc. etc. you can find it all on the games workshop website under the empire section.
The point he was trying to make is Bright Wizards ONLY use Fire magic, while other colleges ONLY use their college of magic. They're not able to do what the elves do which is that one person can theoretically use all 8 winds of magic.
There's already been concept art of wizards from the other colleges (obviously as NPCs), they just chose to use Bright Wizards because of their unique look and feel. I mean just look at them. They bleed of badassery.
Also there are other priests and other knightly orders. I can't think of all their names as well, but the Knights of the Blazing sun who worship the goddess myrmidia (i think that's how you spell it) are very tactical and exact in everything they do throughout their life, so they are the closest to what people expect from a tank/knight character.
There are also other priesthoods. I can't think of those either off the top of my head. (not a lore buff) but I know they exist.
Again just browse games workshops site and you can find miniatures of most of the classes that are in the game, or find some info online about the fantasy role playing game they have, because some of the lore is pulled from that as well. Then while you're at it you can read some novels, because they're pulling lore from there too.
Basically they're drawing from the entire IP and not just one aspect of it.
Hmmm......so I did have it right first time then. Thanks for the info. Basicly the devs have decided all players in the empire who want to be a mage WILL be a fire mage, so like I said before.....ummm......lots of fire wizards running about = Severe lack of choice. Yes they are badass but I would prefer "interesting" to "badass". Afterall who cares if you look badass when every other mage on your side is the same as you. Also anything looks "badass" depending on your perspective. It reminds me of the old days when i used to play geeky pen & paper roleplaying games and at times would deliberately play a character that wasnt outwardly amazing cos I got so tired of listening to everyone else trying to be "the coolest". Afterall people trying to be the badass only impress themselves - the people around them dont give a rats ass as they are to busy being the badass themselves (sigh).
Oh I fancy being a nature mage.....a kind of druid type.....nope cant be one! How about an illusionist....nope! anything other than fire? nope. Oh well.
Oh and I have read some warhammer novels so i do know a bit about the lore. I just wasnt keyed up on who could use which schools of magic.
"What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!"
~Best. Movie. Ever.
Yeah, I totally loved that system as well...
However since the MMORPG is squarely based on TT portion of the IP rather than RPG one (I believe it's even been given over to a separate company while GW concentrates on the TT), the existing career system is OK.
A WHFRPG career system would be awesome but then it wouldn't be all about WAR since a lot of those classes aren't purely combat ones. It would be better suited for a more classical MMO rather than a RvR one. Oh well...
Actually they have stated that WAR is based on all of the Warhammer IP, that includes the TT, RPG, Books, etc. While it is easy to see the comparison with the TT since it is the most well known, Mythic is drawing upon all the lore that Warhammer has to offer.
Also for class balance, they only need to balance the archetypes verses one another, so it should help with the balancing act. Another thing that will help with class balance is the fact that the game is based heavily around RvR, or PvP. So Mythic can just balance the classes against each other and then change the mobs and NPCs in relation to the players. In PvE intensive games, like WoW for example, it is harder to balance classes against each other because skills are balanced against NPCs and Mobs first and foremost. So you end up with useless skills in PvP, like taunt. Yet in WAR they will have a taunt and it will work in PvP because the skill was created for use in PvP, and they can just tailor mobs and NPCs to react a certain way to that skill.
Yes the class system is similar to DAoC, but that should be a given since WAR is being made by the people who made DAoC. And I dont think this system is similar to WoW or EQ or LOTRO, because while you only have a limited selection of classes per race, all the races still pull from the same pool of classes. Whereas in WAR every class is different, and not only in name, the only similarities between classes will be in their archetype.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
The problem with character customization in WAR is they are limited by a methodology that was created for board type games, hence you have built in limitations. Looks like Mythic is addressing this as best they can.
This is NOT the sandbox game everyone is looking for, but it does seem to be something far deeper than AoC. Whether it is Wow quality remains to be seen.
It really cracks me up when people bash Wow yet, not one game to date has even come close to being considered a competitor.
"There are 24 careers in total: four for each of the six races in the game. This in and of itself is a unique decision. More traditional MMOs like World of Warcraft don’t tie their classes to their races."
I quoted this from the article. As a long time DAoC player, I must correct you on this, because I feel like DAoC isn't getting credit when credit is due. While this system is unique, it has also been done by a "traditional game." That game is DAoC of course. Each realm has a set of classes and those classes can only be taken by certain races. It brings the whole "does it make sense for this race to be this class" thing into the works, and I like it.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
DAoC had the same thing. There were 3 different spec. lines you could put points into. The problem is that it wasn't friendly to splashing points into whatever spec you want, due to the game mechanics needing a certain overall point value in order to make a hit with that spell or ability. For example, a Fire Wizard who specializes 32 ranks out of 50 in the Fire line will hit like a lvl 32 when he is 50. There are ways in-game to artificially increase the value of that spec line through gear and realm rank.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I really am not a rude person, but are you serious? Please tell me your are not so ignorant to have no respect for the lore of particular IP's. I am a huge fan of skill- based systems, as you are. I thought Pre-NGE SWG was great. However, I also know that WAR would not be WAR anymore withough classes, because the Warhammer Universe was designed around them, just as WoW was designed with classes in mind. Star Wars on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense to have classes, because it was based on reality a lot more. People in reality have many different skills and rarely master more than 2-3. Lord of the Rings online is a perfect example of a game that used classes when a skill system was more appropriate, however, WAR needs classes or it will be violating the lore.
Think about that.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
This article had me LMAO. WTF is sooo unique and interesting about a race, class system. This has been done 10X over, do i really need to name off the games. OH WAIT!! It isn't the same as WoW, so it must be unique and interesting. LOL!!!!
/cut paste race, class
How about letting any race play any profession. That might make me like it again.
Err, well. Since not everyone knows every game there was, it would help if you named at least 10 so we can easily verify your statement.
Regarding the "let every race play every profession", though it has been stated before:
High Elf Squig Herder? Dwarven Chosen? Empire Witch Elf?
Every race has a tank, rogue, mage and healer. However they all play differently. So please list those games that is like that. And games like WoW and EQ2 and not like that at all.
Perfect World
Shaiya
RF Online
And others, im tired, i'll list more later.
Err, well. Since not everyone knows every game there was, it would help if you named at least 10 so we can easily verify your statement.
Regarding the "let every race play every profession", though it has been stated before:
High Elf Squig Herder? Dwarven Chosen? Empire Witch Elf?
I'm kinda partial to the Empire Witch elf thingy.
Nice
Nice
I could list reasons why this is the dumbest thing said in the entire thread, but instead I'm just going to call you out as a troll.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss