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When PlaneShift developers and staff are breaking their own policies in regards to PlaneShift "spoil

KordoKordo Kenosha, WIPosts: 2Member

PlaneShift Game Rules and Policies (specifically [GAME Policy 11] Spoilers and Walkthroughs last edited on June 08, 2008) clearly states that:

Posting walkthroughs and spoilers in password-free sites or forum threads is against the rules. Players should keep in mind that if they wish to share information they have gathered they should do so in-game and only through private channels or password protected sites.



Not following any of these rules is liable to official actions stated in the Game Sanctions.



However, the official PlaneShift website is officially linking to a German PlaneShift community, which contains numerous spoilers on its website and forum, both of which are password-free.

This Tips and Tricks Forum on PSDE.DE is filled with numerous spoilers, many of which are specifically tagged as "[SPOILER]" in the thread title. Such threads usually contain either exact phrases to say to NPCs in order to advance in quests or complete quest solutions. All PSDE.DE administrators and moderators are well aware of it and even encourage it. Many of the participants are regular posters on the official PlaneShift forum.

Some of their screenshots in the Screenshot section contain a "bird's eye view" type of screenshots, which, according to PlaneShift rules and policies, are "spoilers" because they resemble maps, and posting maps is "against the rules".

Here is an example of a Forum Thread from the official PlaneShift forum to illustrate the above:

How to zoom the camera out to see entire map in one screen?



I am looking for a method to zoom the camera out in the game as much as possible, to take a screenshot of entire area (e.g. Hydlaa Plaza) from the top. I tried zooming out with the keyboard but then it stops after a certain distance and I can't see the entire city in one shot. Is this possible? I think it is, because I looked at this picture: (I removed the pic because it may have been considered a spoiler)

These are a couple of replies he received:

You can make your own maps and ask about the technical things required to do so, but please avoid posting them here or any other public site. It's considered a spoiler. Please edit your post to remove that pic. Thanks.

Thanks for removing the map. It was an old one and it sprung a nice walk down memory lane so I guess it wasn't that bad to have it up for a few minutes. We just need to avoid spoilers.



Keep in mind that the PlaneShift staff has been made aware of this problem on their official forum (in case they weren't before) on April 27, 2008 in the thread titled German PlaneShift community and "spoilers", which was eventually locked to prevent people from discussing it and from keeping it in a forum's focus. The thread has been read over 1900 times. However, they continue linking to PSDE.DE to this day and they haven't changed their policies to allow players to discuss spoilers with the "[SPOILER]" tags on the official forum.

While they do state that they are not responsible for and cannot control the content of the unofficial sites, they are, in fact, responsible for what links they officially post on their main website, especially after being made aware of linking to a password-free site that is breaking the rules by posting spoilers. These links have been manually added by the website administrator and PlaneShift project leader Luca "Talad" Pancallo.

This is a screenshot of the linking page just in case:

img299.imageshack.us/img299/71/psdems7.png

Are Luca Pancallo and the rest of the PlaneShift staff "liable to official actions stated in Game Sanctions" for linking to a password-free website and forum containing major "spoilers"? Why haven't they faced any "official actions", as they should have, and why haven't they stopped linking to such a website? They are, in fact, breaking their own rules and policies by knowingly continuing to link to such a website, even after being made well aware of its content, therefore, officially giving it support.

Any subsequent mention of the problem on the official PlaneShift forum is typically censored by the staff, who hope that the issue is going to go away, if people can't discuss it. The threads or posts concerning the problem or containing PSDE.DE URL in them are usually deleted (because it's a "spoiler") and nothing is being done by them to either ask the Germain PlaneShift community to remove the spoilers or to stop linking to them from the official PlaneShift website. The same regular posters, who continue posting spoilers on the German PlaneShift community site, also continue posting on the official PlaneShift forum without facing any "official actions" or even a warning.

PlaneShift staff is well aware that the German PlaneShift community helps increase PlaneShift's popularity and is one of the sources for potential players, not to mention the obvious link and traffic exchange. They also provide one of the mirrors for downloading the game itself. Obviously, they don't want to ruin a relationship with them, so much that they are ready to disregard their own rules and policies, while continuing to censor any "spoilers" from the main forum, warning and threatening anyone who does post them with "official actions", and trying to insult anyone who chooses to post them on independent sites, such as The Linux Game Tome.

I wanted other people to be aware of the obvious dishonesty, lack of integrity, and plain hypocrisy of the PlaneShift development and staff team. Since the PSDE.DE link has not been removed from the official site, then at least many should now be aware of where to find the "spoilers", something that the PlaneShift team is terrified of (unless they think they benefit from traffic exchange). If it is officially linked to from the main website and they are aware of the linked site's contents, it must be ok to post the link anywhere. It's ok to break and disregard PlaneShift's policies, since its staff, including their project leader, break and disregard them too. This is also a thread/post that they are powerless to delete. Even though the site and forum are in German, it is easy enough to find quest solutions you're looking for, since the quest names and exact phrases to say to NPCs are in English, just as the game itself. One can also use automatic translators, such as Google Language Tools on the entire site.

That is if you are still playing this "game" at all. I don't.

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Comments

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    I don't think you should stop playing because you disagree with how the devs do business (since it's free). i've made it pretty obvious that I don't like a lot of the crap that happens, but I still play and think it's a fun game.

    spoilers are meh.  There have been other websites where this has been an issue and things were changed pretty quickly.  The german community hasn't really done anything wrong and they've done a lot for players, so I'm not complaining if they haven't been punished.

  • KordoKordo Kenosha, WIPosts: 2Member
    Originally posted by pstruth


    I don't think you should stop playing because you disagree with how the devs do business (since it's free). i've made it pretty obvious that I don't like a lot of the crap that happens, but I still play and think it's a fun game.



    I don't think I should keep playing it just because the game is free. Even if it's free, it should at least be acceptable. If one offers you free lunch, it must not be rotten. That's common sense.

    Unless breaking your own rules and policies became a style of "business", I wouldn't call it a "business" at all. They're breaking their own policies, while trying to enforce those policies on many others and censor/delete any posts that bring up the issue. That's not a "business" but a "business failure". By continuing to play this game, I would be supporting their hypocrisy, dishonesty and lack of integrity, and I refuse to do that.

    I've seen you complain about a lot of things in this game. I've also seen you turn around and beg forgiveness. This post isn't about those issues.

    Originally posted by pstruth


    The german community hasn't really done anything wrong and they've done a lot for players, so I'm not complaining if they haven't been punished.



    Does doing "a lot for players" make one exempt from a policy? They may have very well done a lot for some players but that isn't even an issue here.

    Just like the German PlaneShift community and "spoilers" thread starter, I think people should be able to discuss spoilers with the "[SPOILER]" tags on the official forum. This isn't about "punishing" German PlaneShift community but about PlaneShift staff following their own policy when they expect others to follow it. I didn't want to be a part of the environment where the main developer and staff team are breaking their own policy, playing favorites and only enforcing their policy on the newcomers, who haven't yet "done a lot for players".

    I think you drastically misunderstood what I said.

    As for things changing "pretty quickly", the PlaneShift staff have been made well aware of the problem since April 27, 2008, provided that they honestly didn't know about it prior to that. It's June 24, 2008 now.

    Originally posted by UtMoon


    Wonderful.



    Thanks.

    I wasn't looking for a response, only for people to read it and since the number of views is increasing, that is all that matters.

    I don't play this "game" anymore but that is irrelevant to the fact that PlaneShift developers and staff (some of which doesn't even develop the game) are not following their own policies. Following your own policy would be an "improvement". It also doesn't mean I can't share my experience and observations with others.

    Have a nice day too, everyone.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • UtMoonUtMoon Aniwa, WIPosts: 99Member

    Taken from the PlaneShift thread:

    Peeg-

    Disclaimer: Following post contains my personal opinion and nothing else.



    I'm part of said community's staff and I'd like to clarify some things.

    There are no complete walkthroughs or solutions to any quest on psde (the German community)!

    When we designed psde we decided that we won't follow the strict anti-spoiler policy as you all know it from this forum.

    There's a simple reason for it: Our goal was (and still is) to help players to enjoy our beloved game as much as possible.  A player who tries to solve a quest  for days and can't finish it because the NPCs won't understand whatever he tries gets frustrated. That's where the enjoyment ends. It's simples as that. Long thing put short: Yes, we allow posters to ask questions about certain quests. Nearly every time a hint into the right direction is enough to make them happy ....



    Every entry that could contain the slightest spoiler has to be marked as such. Additionally we provide special tags to hide text-passages that are spoilers. Btw: Yes, we moderate the forums there and we take care that the tags and signs get used when needed.

    Spoilers in the Wiki are only available for registered users. We follow the approach that every player should have his own choice when the question arises if he'd like to get some hints. If you don't like it: Fine, don't click where a huge, bold [SPOILER] shows up ...



    I like to mention another thing: Every single member of psde's staff has put a huge bunch of work and time into it. I don't know how much time I spent in answering techn. questions, updating the site or translating all kind of official stuff to German. It's been fun and i don't regret a second of it. We build the largest national PS community with about 2800 registered members. If you look at PS' playerbase you'll find a lot Germans ... maybe, just maybe, our concept worked out?



    I'm not much of a writer, so i'll close here. If someone feels the urge to discuss this further: I can be found on IRC.



    Have a nice day



    Alfonso Knaf-



    I am too a member of the staff of psde.de as well as founder of the site.

    It's true we have spoilers publically available and the reason is exactly like peeg phrased it.

    We provide help (you can call it spoilers) for the same reason the official boards provide the tutorial walkthrough, to avoid frustration.



    Anyhow "heavy" spoilers are only available after registration and therefore not visible when searching for "planeshift deutsch hilfe" (planeshift german help) via google.

    I would be really disappointed when the link to psde.de in the other languages section would be removed.

    We provide much more than just spoilers we provide a community base and help in general. Besides we are a few months away from providing the first working translation since MB as well as a platform for translation open for every language. We wouldn't have found helfull (and nice) community members which dedicate their time to this if it weren't for our site.

    We encourage roleplaying whenever possible, in fact our staff values rp in PS over most other aspects and that's what we try to get across to our community.

    I would really like to discuss all this further with the PS team, maybe we find a solution...

    *heavy sarcasm in a deadpan voice* Yes, terrible things are going on here. I think I will go on a crusade to ban the entire German community. Thank you for pointing out these grievous crimes. The lack of integrity is nearly blinding. The dishonesty sickens my to my stomach. The hypocrisy is astounding. Keep up the good work and be sure to kick the cane out from under any J-walking grannies you see.

    I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.

  • QueenofFoolsQueenofFools PlaneShift Developer sarasota, FLPosts: 61Member

    This topic, like many others is being blown out of proportion. It is tiring to be held to some subjective definition of "integrity" by folks who clearly have some anger toward the project.

    There is little merit in the arguments of Kordo, this if furthered by his or her overt attempts at anonymity both on this forum and originally on our forum.

    Anyone can be a troll via a proxy and say whatever they want.

    What I would like people to be able to see is that developers of PlaneShift must work against complaints of this nature and it takes time away from building the game.

    We don't have budget or sufficient volunteers for an extensive PR department, so when someone slams the game or the integrity of the people who give countless hours of their free time to the game that seems to be the only impression that is left in places like mmorpg.com or tlgt.

    One may think they are crusaders for truth and in some cases be well intentioned but the net result is a smear that ps can hardly afford the time to defend itself against.

    Happy gaming.

     

     

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    There's a bit of wisdom, "treat others as you wish to be treated".  The PS devs are judged more by their own behavior than by the random posts of trolls.

    UtMoon could have posted something like this:

    "I'm very sorry that you feel we've been unfair.  We've been aware of the spoilers for a while now and we're actually working behind the scenes to fix the problem.  Thank you for your concern."

    Nothing else would need to be said.

    Smile.  Say thank you.  Practice a little humility.  Be nice.  It will pay off for you in the long run, even though you won't have the satisfaction of flaming people who you feel are trolling you.  Not only would UtMoon haved saved much of his precious time, but he would have made himself look better.

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    And yes, I'm telling you to lie.  I'm telling you to pretend to care and act as if you aren't upset and offended.  It works.

  • QueenofFoolsQueenofFools PlaneShift Developer sarasota, FLPosts: 61Member

    /me reads pstruth's post before responding.

    Yes you are right we will work to do exactly what you have suggested in future posts. Your wisdom and tolerance exhibited here and elsewhere are a lesson to us all and I thank you for the many constructive posts you have made.

     

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    By George I think he's got it!

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • UtMoonUtMoon Aniwa, WIPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by pstruth


    And yes, I'm telling you to lie.  I'm telling you to pretend to care and act as if you aren't upset and offended.  It works.

     

    Naw, Tuxide, he gets it.

    I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.

  • UtMoonUtMoon Aniwa, WIPosts: 99Member

    The PlaneShift 'team' and 'staff' do not have the ability to change the website, nor are any of them guilty of Kordo's blanket statement of  "dishonesty, lack of integrity, and plain hypocrisy". Many are my close friends, and this thread has insulted and slandered them without a basis.

    I have asked in a nicely worded report, a post, and in a PM to the mods that the offending comments be removed, with each comment outlined. A week has passed. The offending comments were not removed, my post was deleted in entirety (including the parts that defended PS and its team against unfounded claims of dishonesty) and I was issued a warning for breaking forum rules in the category of ' Other' for posting an issue with the moderation of this forum (for asking publicly that the offending remarks be removed).

    For those of you who have not read the MMORPG forum rules:  www.mmorpg.com/disclaimers.cfm#conduct You will note that not a single rule is violated by this or any post that asks a Mod publicly to remove a slanderous remark made by another. If you read the Flaming and Personal Attacks rules, you will clearly see that Kordo has violated these rule on more than one occasion in both of his posts. His post is rude, hostile, and contains a clear personal attack in this and other statements:

    "I wanted other people to be aware of the obvious dishonesty, lack of integrity, and plain hypocrisy of the PlaneShift development and staff team."

    If unfounded attacks like this are allowed to remain, it will only cause more hostility from the good folks of PlaneShift. Why would we continue to come to a place where we get constantly and maliciously spit upon, and it is allowed?

    For the record, this post is not in regards the warning I received. It is a statement of disappointment and outrage that I feel in that I have given information that proves comments made by another poster are hostile and unfounded attacks, and nothing has been done about it.

    I await my second warning or ban in the category of 'Other' for the non-existent rule of publicly posting "having an issue with forum moderation". If the slanderous attacks on my friends are removed, it will be well worth it. If they are not removed, please make my ban permanent. I'll have no further use for this forum.

    I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • klyrosklyros Vicksburg, MIPosts: 6Member

    I don't agree with the premise of the original post. But sometimes it is better to just say nothing at all.

  • XEyeSpyXXEyeSpyX Alvarado, TXPosts: 14Member

     

    Have to say - after reading the original drama post, I chalked it all up to a former player with a grudge, trying to get even.

     

    That is until I read the replies from the several staff members of this game. I've played a LOT of games in my time, but I've never seen staff from any of those games come running like a bunch of children to argue a post that really does not do a single bit of damage to the game's reputation at all. What damages the game's reputation are the staff fighting on an MMPORPG user review site over ONE random post that has absolutely nothing to do with game playability what-so-ever.

     

    As some other posters have said, staffers could have read and replied professionally, or not at all. This is what good gaming staff does folks. You don't see Blizzard staff, or Turbine Staff duking it out verbally on their forum or any other forums. And I really don't care what anyone thinks of either of those companies, it's the point behind the sentence that I'm getting at.

     

    I'd have to say that I won't be trying this game at all, not because I think the game may suck, but because if I ever run into trouble with the game and need to speak to staff about it - I now see what I can count on being treated like. Take a lesson from games like Astonia III - bad staff = lots of bad reviews and NO gamers. You guys need to hold your tongues or learn to speak professionally, remembering who and what you represent.

     

    In the mean time - good luck.

    -=EyeSpy=-
    -=Game Reviewer=-

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • klyrosklyros Vicksburg, MIPosts: 6Member

    You are really defensive Tuxide. The fact is you don't know that anything you claim is true. In fact, it may be a red herring.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • UtMoonUtMoon Aniwa, WIPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by XEyeSpyX


    Have to say - after reading the original drama post, I chalked it all up to a former player with a grudge, trying to get even.
    ...
    I'd have to say that I won't be trying this game at all, not because I think the game may suck, but because if I ever run into trouble with the game and need to speak to staff about it - I now see what I can count on being treated like.


     On the first count, you were right. He is exactly what you said. On yout other points, you missed the point of his post completely. He was personally attacking the people working on the game with dishonest intentions and misleading information. That is illegal where I come from.  Apparently not here.

    Your last point makes no sense, unless you mean by "running into trouble" you mean trolling, insulting people, breaking rules, or whatever. Any responses here were made against an aggressive assailant. You will find that the people working on the game will bend over backwards to help players in 'trouble'. I personally know of one Dev who got very little sleep for days just to be online to help new players out of the tutorial while a bug was fixed.

    Ask around how bad trolling is in the game, and you will see how hard our GMs work to keep the environment clean and friendly. In fact, somethingawful is doing their roulette on PlaneShift right now, and so far they have not been able to get their foot in the door in any major way. From what I have seen, we have been pulling better (friendlier too) pranks on them than they have on us. Which is disappointing in a way, as some of us (I included) were looking forward to a funny article. I got to see the complete logs of the guys who pranked one of their members (the one who was lead around by the nose for several hours). Funny as all get out.

    Anyways, believe what you will believe. Don't play the game for whatever reason you don't want to. But make sure you are informed.

    We are all unpaid volunteers that have other jobs in real life, and sacrifice a great deal of sleep and time to work on this project. The game makes $0 income. There are no adds hidden anywhere. There are no hidden costs ever. The game will never 'go public' and start charging. Anyone can take the code and make their own game any time they want. Ya, that is a game filled with terrible Devs and underhanded intentions worth attacking.

    *ps, MMORPG staff, I am still waiting for those insulting, flaming, and false remarks to be removed from the OP. I am not a dishonest person and do not lack integrity.

    I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member
    Originally posted by UtMoon


    The PlaneShift 'team' and 'staff' do not have the ability to change the website, nor are any of them guilty of Kordo's blanket statement of  "dishonesty, lack of integrity, and plain hypocrisy". Many are my close friends, and this thread has insulted and slandered them without a basis.

     

    I don't believe he was calling for the Planeshift 'team' and 'staff' to change the German community website.  He was calling for the Planeshift team to penalize the German community according to our policy surrounding spoilers.

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member
    Originally posted by XEyeSpyX



     
    Have to say - after reading the original drama post, I chalked it all up to a former player with a grudge, trying to get even.
     
    That is until I read the replies from the several staff members of this game. I've played a LOT of games in my time, but I've never seen staff from any of those games come running like a bunch of children to argue a post that really does not do a single bit of damage to the game's reputation at all. What damages the game's reputation are the staff fighting on an MMPORPG user review site over ONE random post that has absolutely nothing to do with game playability what-so-ever.
     
    As some other posters have said, staffers could have read and replied professionally, or not at all. This is what good gaming staff does folks. You don't see Blizzard staff, or Turbine Staff duking it out verbally on their forum or any other forums. And I really don't care what anyone thinks of either of those companies, it's the point behind the sentence that I'm getting at.
     
    I'd have to say that I won't be trying this game at all, not because I think the game may suck, but because if I ever run into trouble with the game and need to speak to staff about it - I now see what I can count on being treated like. Take a lesson from games like Astonia III - bad staff = lots of bad reviews and NO gamers. You guys need to hold your tongues or learn to speak professionally, remembering who and what you represent.
     
    In the mean time - good luck.

    Agreed.  The Planeshift project members don't conduct themselves professionally, generally speaking.  But they aren't professionals, and they take personally everything that gets said about the game.

  • HiraghmHiraghm Oklahoma City, OKPosts: 39Member

    I have a question, PSTruth.

    Just how much are you paying to play PS?

    If you don't play PS...

    and you don't want to play PS...

     

    why in the heck are you complaining about *spoilers* to PS?

    Just what interest is it of yours?

    What hair got up your crack sideways?

     As you pointed out yourself... it's not a professional project.

    That doesn't mean it lacks talent or dedication. It just means it lacks BS artists like the big companies hire to babysit insufferable people who get more entertainment out of complaining than they would ever get out of any game.

     

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    You may want to reread my posts.  I do play the game.  I think it's fun, and I want it to succeed.

    As far as spoilers go, I said:

    "The german community hasn't really done anything wrong and they've done a lot for players, so I'm not complaining if they haven't been punished."

    Also, I'm not the one complaining.  Kordo is.

    You seem very confused about who's saying what.  No offense, but perhaps you should reread the thread...?

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    I'm curious to know what your definition of rudeness is.  Yes, I've pointed out flaws in the game.  And yes, I've pointed out the misbehavior of the developers.

    But the problem isn't that people complain.  The problems are what people complain about.

    You're essentially saying "If you want PlaneShift to be successful, then shut up about the misbehavior of its developers."  I don't see the logic in that.

     

    I had nothing to do with Karyuu's departure.  People are running away form the game, but the game's developers are to blame for that, not the critics.

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