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Originally posted by Finwolven Originally posted by Ozmodan Some of you do not understand the world of MMO's that is for sure.If the game has classes, it is NOT a sandbox. A sandbox means you can define your character as you like which is impossible when classes are present.Doom3 is not even a MMO, it is a FPS, if you can't understand the difference what are you doing on this site?
Um, having classes does not by any means restrict the world from being a sandbox. Granted, most MMO's that try the sandbox way are classless, skill-based systems, but freedom to define your character without restrictions is only a part of being a true sandbox MMO.
IMO 'sandbox'-style refers to a persistant world where you can interact with most things in a logical manner, and you are not forced to particular paths for your advancement. A game where I can, if I like, stop adventuring and doing quests and instead just, say, craft items and trade them and still play a meaningful game, is very far towards the sandbox end of the scale.
Also, the freedom to choose your path and goals sets sandboxes apart from 'linear' MMO's. My goal may not be to advance to 'end-game' content and to raid and PVP, and if the game doesn't push me towards that path, then IMO it's well on its way to being a sandbox.
A big part of a sandbox is being able to pursue your path like you just said. IF I am forced to select a Class when I enter the world- most likely that game is not a sandbox. However, if I am dynamically creating a Class, then the game can possibly be called a sandbox.
In sandbox games you have the freedom to be a pure Crafter if you desire and not be forced to kill mobs or anything. That's one example
this thread makes me want to vomit..... The WoW hate came into play when somebody said WoW was something it is not, it wasnt like everyone just started saying WoW sucks ....... And alot of people's reactions to a ignorant person like Zorndof, is to attack the game he plays and you can see alot of in this thread. If you cleaned this post up and kept the posts that didnt involve sandbox/WoW hate, you would find every aspect of a Sandbox, it has been explained 100 times in this thread, and if you cant seem to READ or UNDERSTAND what is being said, then you shouldnt even be on this forum. It's been spelled out dozens of times, and if you havent even played a game like SWG (pre-cu) or UO, then im sorry but you dont have a real grasp of what a sandbox type game is.
Playing: EVE OnlineFavorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE onlineLooking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Thread seems simple enough...
Sandbox, as defined by this thread:
Why there are no more sandboxes, as defined by this thread:
However, there really is no need to hate on WoW or the kids who play it. It servers a purpose and to be honest if people can stay charmed by a game with such little depth and complexity for so long, I don't want them in my gaming community anyway, other than to grief on.
I played UO and Pre-CU SWG. That's my type of game. I remember when Pre-CU SWG launched and we were finally able to log on the 2nd day it was really as if hundreds of thousands of people were just dropped on these planets, left at the mercy of their own resourcefullness.
We had no money, no decent weapons, nothing. Survival was tough. Before they had mounts or vehicles I used to have to run to my harvestors to collect minerals for 15 - 20 real-time minutes and it was a dangerous task. You had to dodge NPC spawns along the way that could kill you at any given moment. I haven't had that sort of thrill in an MMO since.
Everything is spoonfed now, instanced. Your path is planned for you. Unless you have played this type of game you really don't know what "sandbox" means.
Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by Avos /AgreeHowever, there really is no need to hate on WoW or the kids who play it. It servers a purpose and to be honest if people can stay charmed by a game with such little depth and complexity for so long, I don't want them in my gaming community anyway, other than to grief on.I played UO and Pre-CU SWG. That's my type of game. I remember when Pre-CU SWG launched and we were finally able to log on the 2nd day it was really as if hundreds of thousands of people were just dropped on these planets, left at the mercy of their own resourcefullness.We had no money, no decent weapons, nothing. Survival was tough. Before they had mounts or vehicles I used to have to run to my harvestors to collect minerals for 15 - 20 real-time minutes and it was a dangerous task. You had to dodge NPC spawns along the way that could kill you at any given moment. I haven't had that sort of thrill in an MMO since. Everything is spoonfed now, instanced. Your path is planned for you. Unless you have played this type of game you really don't know what "sandbox" means.
Thank you for calling me a kid at the age of 52.
Problem is I have more years on gaming than all of you combined. )
And I KNOW when I see a good game. Been playing computer games for 28 years now. From Trash 80 to Atari 800 (no it was NOT a console), Amiga, PC's, from Utima to Balder's Gate from DAoC to Wow, from LOTRO to Age of Loading. Not even talking of the wargaming years I had. From SPI, AH, pencil and paper DD to Warhammer miniatures.
World of Warcraft IS a sandbox game because:
1. My avatar is my sandbox I do LIVE with it in an ever changing world that I consider a sandbox.
The moment I MAKE my weapons and my helicopter and my steath device and I get potions and enchantments of other professions I CHANGE that world.
I Change it by ECONOMICS through the Auction House. The scopes I craft change the world and makes players better. Just like all those other professions do. Hey there is that warrior who can make me a better saddle so I ride faster...
And Wow has about the best economics ANY MMORPG has.
2. My OPTIONS in its end game are completely free and anno 2008 Wow Raiding is just a tiny part of the game for LOTS of players.
3. I talked this over with my brother in that Gruul Raid we had last night. When we were doing arena's and later a few Battlegrounds, you know what he said ? If Wow was only about raiding he would have left it already a year ago.
4. Most of you all DO NOT have an idea of what Wow has become since patch 2.3. You only think at the "!" and "?" signs when doing basic leveling. I am talking the REAL play at level 70 and the HUGE number of playing styles you have at level 70.
5. Its prejudgement of third hand information like somebody said, those who played Wow 2 years ago while leveling to a level 60 and then quit.
And the elitism and frustration about WOW is understandable. Having 62% marketshare AND getting transformed into a sandbox game is not a good sign for its haters.
The only blinds ones here are the guys who just don't see the evolution.
Where were the auction houses in UO ???? The basis to have a REAL driven economy?
And what was the result again of that NEW game the UO designer brought in 2007? Tabula rasa .....
TBC anno 2008 is very MUCH a sandbox game. And WotLK will exploit it further.
Have a nice frustrated day.
You are still bound to a hard defined Class. Sorry, WoW breaks any decent sandbox definition you could probably find. The day I am not forced to pick a character the developer already made for me is the day WoW becomes one step closer to sandbox. Atm, it is holy grail of linear MMO from start to finish.
Can you even be a pure crafter in WoW? Last I checked you had to go kill mobs. All those MMOs you listed sound like a very short list too me btw. I'm not impressed.
-edit my bad you do mention pen and paper which makes it all the more confusing why would you try to WoW is a sandbox but meh, I dont really care anyway.
With all due respect, it is a huge leap to call a game "sandbox" at the end of the game. Sandbox games are generally understood as complete and utter freedom throughout the game, not just at level 70. And some pureists would argue a sandbox game has no levels anyway.
Your age doesn't make you an expert on the topic, no matter how much experience you have with gaming.
Again, you only show your OPINION in that you THINK WoW offers a great deal of freedom therefore you THINK it is a sandbox game. But unfortunately for you, that is not the case. As I've already listed, there are elements that are the core of sandbox games, and WoW does not meet ANY of them at the core. The game may give the illusion of some sandbox elements, but at the core, it is NOT a sandbox game.
And I do play WoW, so does my friends. And when we talk about WoW, we know exactly what it is - a game that has many things done right, but it is NOT A SANDBOX GAME!
And you haven't answer my questions from before... When you answer that, then we can continue to discuss this, otherwise you are just repeating your opinion based on personal experience, and that doesn't prove WoW is a sandbox game.
About the economy. It can be debate with greater detail of the different implementation (may it be auction house or personal shops.) But this thread is not the place to do this...
Anyway, we all have hijack this thread for far too long. Let's get back to the OP's original question...
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
No Zandorf, I've played WoW since closed beta and still have an account to this day. Last week I was in Black Temple and tonight I'll be in Zulaman. When patch 2.4 came out I participated actively in the new dailies to see how the island evolved (and to spawn the armourer NPC so I could get the lovely new badge gear.) Last night I was helping some guildmembers who only recently got level 70 to finish their SMV group quests, then I did a couple of Netherwing dailies because despite being a druid with epic flight form, I just want one of those cool dragons. In my spare moments I'm getting some honour from BG's because I want to build a balance set on the side for when I want to respec from resto for some fun, especially since Iøve read some of the alpha leaks and balance looks awesome in WotLK so far.
I love WoW, and I think WotLK is going to be an awesome advancement of the game. Almost every night I embrace the diversity of what the game offers. For you to say I bash the game is utterly wrong, and likewise to say that I don't have knowledge of what the game is, right now, or what it will be, is plain wrong.
Therefore, I do feel entierly qualified to say that it is simply not a sandbox game, excepting the idea that all MMO's are sandbox to some extent, in which case it is far, far less sandbox than the genre examples that are generally considered by common consensus to be 'true' sandbox MMO's.
What especially confuses me is WHY you are so determined to prove WoW is a sandbox mmo? Sandbox is a preference, a style, but itøs not a statement of quality.
Originally posted by Mahni Thread seems simple enough...Sandbox, as defined by this thread: All the kids have to play in the same sandbox Kids go anywhere they like within the sandbox Kids can move or shape the sand (or throw it, make it into mud, etc.) There are a large set of toys that the parents have put in the sandbox Each kid gets the same set of toys (shovels, buckets, etc.) in the sandbox - they do not have to make an initial choice of what toys they will use, and they can change at any time Each kid can use the toys in any way they choose - they do not have to use one toy in order to earn the right to use another toy The toys work in the same way for every kid - Billy doesn't really have an epic toy of shoveling + 2 Kids can make deals with other kids - through trades (I'll sell you this sandcastle I built!) or by social interactions (let's agree to work together to build this sandcastle that we can both enjoy!) Kids can beat up other kids and take any candy they might have (their parents do not care) The sandbox does not clean itselfWhy there are no more sandboxes, as defined by this thread: Kids nowadays are going to Disneyworld Kids nowadays can't tell the difference between a sandbox and Disneyworld so they are lured away by the costumed characters and the sounds of other kids having fun The sandboxes weren't making enough money to compete with Disneyworld After kids "cut their teeth" at Disneyworld, maybe they will start to appreciate / look for a nice old sandbox It takes a special person to make a sandbox, parents nowadays aren't smart / creative enough It takes a special kid to play in a sandbox, kids nowadays aren't smart / creative enough They just don't make sandboxes like they used to (ah, the good old days!) The kids started crying about being beat up in the sandboxes, or the bullies ruin it for everyone The kids started whining about making the toys easier to use and ruined it for everyone The kids grew up and became more interested in the real world (opposite sex, job, money) so they don't have time for sandboxes There is a secret sandbox but its only for the smart and / or cool kids
This is the greatest post ever on these boards. :-)
Seems like Mortal Online will be a sandbox mmorpg. Check it out!
Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by Talgen With all due respect, it is a huge leap to call a game "sandbox" at the end of the game. Sandbox games are generally understood as complete and utter freedom throughout the game, not just at level 70. And some pureists would argue a sandbox game has no levels anyway.
I agree on that. 100 %
The problem with the basic construction of Wow was that it was designed 4 and more years ago and indeed HAD and HAS a very lineair playing style to level.
That's a pity. Most people who say Wow is all about "?" and "I" are right in the leveling part to level 70.
But its end game now it is indeed a complete different game than 2 years ago.
As I said it changed around the end of last year. Blizzard has promoted very different end play styles and backed it up by a very fast leveling system just "to get there" where the real game begins. And raids is but a fraction of it.
It is also combat driven. But that doesn't exclude it from being played in RP or pure AH play.
You forget the basic tenant of a sandbox is there is "no end". There is no endgame. In EVE Online, nothng stops a newbie from going anywhere he pleases at anytime. Nothing stops them from joining Fleet Battles. There is no end game
Take Elder scrolls or any other acclaimed Sandbox. No end. Game keeps going.
Come to think of it WoW breaks another basic tenant most sandboxes share. There is teaming restrictions in WoW
Battlegrounds the limit is what - 48 vs 48?
Raids is what 10 now? I forgot, the number isn;t important. The important fact is there is a 'limit'. A barrier
In a sandbox there is no grouping restrictions. Freedom. In EVE Online we can bring a fleet into a mission. No grouping limits anywhere. Ever....
Sandbox basic criteria is Freedom. WoW is no where close to this.
I've seen a lot of things in these forums, but this is the first tme somebody seriously attempts to convince people that WoW is a sandbox game. Hilarious. WoW is anything but sandbox. And that's probably the main reason it's so popular. The game offers a lot of things, sandbox elements is not one of them.
Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by Kanubis Therefore, I do feel entierly qualified to say that it is simply not a sandbox game, excepting the idea that all MMO's are sandbox to some extent, in which case it is far, far less sandbox than the genre examples that are generally considered by common consensus to be 'true' sandbox MMO's. What especially confuses me is WHY you are so determined to prove WoW is a sandbox mmo? Sandbox is a preference, a style, but itøs not a statement of quality.
Because I showed and to some extend I proved that indeed almost every MMORPG out there is more or less a sandbox game, because ... PURE sandbox games are in fact 'thin air" ideas. Loose ideas, to serve ones purpose....
The answer you will find in my very first post of this thread. I showed that to have a GOOD and polished MMORPG these days you need to have COMPLETE designer control of every aspect of the game.
Again, you prove nothing... You only keep talking about your opinion and ignore the core elements of what constitute as a sandbox game.
Lack of these millions of data analysis and testings (read the first thread) result in games like Age of Conan and the numerous OLD MMORPG techniques we had to endure.
Amateurish, broken systems.
Sandbox is a hype and a "myth". Seen by old grognards who think they can stand above the masses by looking back at HOW good those old days were.
It's normal: they consider themselves the upper upper classes of MMORPG players.
Again, opinion stated by you, which proved nothing... Most sandbox advocate doesn't consider themselves higher than other, just have a different view on the ability of MMORPG. And sandbox isn't a myth. There are still sandbox games that are currently running. I would mention them again, but they are all mentioned in this thread.
In society they are the cricket players of modern sports (Eve). A game hard to play and hard to explain.
While football is for the masses with little education, cricket is for the elite.
No matter how laggy and compressed you have to play EVE in PvP (rather like to look at a spreadsheet when battles did take place). It is CHIQUE to say to play EVE and stating it is a sandbox game.
Truth is : every good MMORPG out there is to a certain degree a sandbox game.
This is only a half-truth. The actual statement is that all MMORPG are build on a sandbox premise with different set of rules. When the rules limit the core of sandbox elements, the games stop being sandbox.
And the best are those with decent analysed data designs with a big gameplay value and LOTS of options in their end game playing styles.
Again, your opinion, not proven fact.
Wow is linear garbage it is not a sandbox.
Vanguard is not a sandbox again because of level's
The closest game i can think of recently was Pre-CU SWG you could go anywhere do anything you wernt forced to a single region to gain skill's
As long as a game has levels rather than skill's it will never be sandbox.
Originally posted by Zorndorf Wow doesn't end either.the game only begins at level 70 and it has a MUCH more varied options of playing styles than EVE ever had.Competitive PvP play being broadcasted?
If it begins at level 70, why doesn't everyone get level 70 from the start?
Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by Rymdkejsaren Originally posted by Zorndorf Wow doesn't end either.the game only begins at level 70 and it has a MUCH more varied options of playing styles than EVE ever had.Competitive PvP play being broadcasted?
Because the game begins as a lineair MMORPG (designed in 2004) , but its present end game is NOT lineair at all since patch 2.3.
... You, sir, just fail at logic...
Seriously, IF the game starts at 70, what's the point of 1 - 69? Wasting money and time until 70 to play the "real game"?
You cannot say WoW is not linear when you still have 1 - 69 right there in the character progression... Because you already passed the stage doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
By the way, I'm still waiting for the answer to my questions from earlier posts to see if you can prove WoW to be a sandbox game...
In WoW the game starts at 70? WoW is like a sanbox after 70? You sir are an idiot.
In SWG the game started the minute you loaded into Cnet, or Nabbo, or whichever destination you chose. That game never had a ending. You didnt need to max a combat proffesion to have any fun.
SWG was the last of a TRUE MMORPG. WoW fans have no idea on what they missed.
I just wish a really good, polished Sanbox game would be released and give all those poor mmorpg players (who have only ever played WoW etc) a real taste of what an mmorpg should look like.
Actually, present time WoW is the epitome of linear gameplay. At least at he beginning the game was more free roaming than it is today (minus the leveling of course).
Right now you're boxed in two very rigid, very unforgiving paths with a specific pattern that you need to do every single day.
If you're a raider (or the more casual version of running instances)
If you're a PvPer, it's simper.
If you're a casual, you're basically running through the same routine, with a slower pace and much less stress. The problem of course that the mere existence of this routine gameplay is the pinnacle of what constitutes the opposite of what a true sandbox is all about.
It's not the levels really. You can have a sandbox game with levels (raising skills or raising levels is really the same thing). The moment however you're locked in a routine, doing things out of necessity so as to enjoy things you like, sandbox goes down the drain.
The strong point of WoW is that the routine is interesting and it does keep you ocuppied and entertained fr quite some time. However, this is not about either popularity or entertainment value.
WoW is a great game on it's own. It doesn't need to be called something it is not to do well. Blizzard can potentially do a great sandbox MMO in the future. WoW will however remain her theme-park MMO.
Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by Forcan ... You, sir, just fail at logic...Seriously, IF the game starts at 70, what's the point of 1 - 69? Wasting money and time until 70 to play the "real game"? You cannot say WoW is not linear when you still have 1 - 69 right there in the character progression... Because you already passed the stage doesn't mean it doesn't exist. By the way, I'm still waiting for the answer to my questions from earlier posts to see if you can prove WoW to be a sandbox game...
I proved it already a dozen times and the only thing you can come up with is.
Again, you are using your opinion, and you are not answering my question.
"This is just YOUR opnion of MMORPG's and sandboxes"
Well to sum it up AGAIN (sigh)
1. Wow has a real player economy - based on crafting and professions that changes the characters and so changes the game and its challenges. The auction house is the best implemtented of ALL MMORPG's btw.
Best Auction house? maybe, best economy? nope. It's your opinion stating it to be the best, not the fact. Where's the proof?
2. It has freedom of choices to play whatever you like and HOW you like it and STILL get character improvements past 70 .
If you don't what to go find my question, I'll ask here...
Can you become a melee hunter and still be accepted? Does the system give you that freedom with no punishment?
Can you be a pure crafter? not once raise a weapon hitting any mobs?
Can you have your own estate anywhere in the game world?
Can you take over Orgrimmar or Stormwind and hold control over it?
Will what you do MATTER to the game world? Can you really AFFECT the game world?
3. World changes ARE taking place as a result of server achievements of players. No matter what you say about being preprogrammed. It IS there.
Can others make change to this effect? The world change are scripted (pre-designed), and like one poster said, the change is about WHEN it will occur, not IF it will occur.
So can another group of player destroy the effort of others in this world change?
4. A LOT of alternatives in its game playing. PVE (dozens of choices) PvP (open world PvP, BG's, Arena, and e-sport arena with premades and completely free gear choice).
Well, again, can you be a pure crafter without being any other class?
Except of the above mentioned "style", anything without the lure of gear advancement?
Well, is it limited to just the area from the expansion? Or does that take place in ALL of the game world?
This means "in your opinion", so where's the proof? Personal experience are biased and therefore isn't fit to be a sound proof. You need more than just personal experience in order to make your argument stick.
Well, you are focusing on the one aspect which there are limitation. (Of course some can say the ship IS your avatar and that you can change into other ships --- freedom right there...)
As for the rest, EVE stays true to the sandbox core, while WoW does not...
Answer the above questions and try to make your argument stick... Or I would just take it you have nothing else and should just stop right here...
Originally posted by Sophist Originally posted by Avos Sadly most people who play games aren't smart enough or creative enough to keep playing sanboxes, it seems. Most gamers apparently need to be spoonfed levels, classes, restrictions, and loots. Look at the 10 million cronies playing WoW. That game has kept these people happy for YEARS! The industry knows this and that's why all we see are these linear games. I would say, in fact, the problem is more the players than the developers.
OMG Give up on life and go back to playing wow noone is saying wow is the worst game in the world so please get over it . The point is most wow kiddies that have been playing for years have been cause they never knew what an MMORPG REALLY was then WoW came out. All they knew was DragonballZ and craptastice bull. Thats why when they play a real game and get spanked in it they come cry here and run back to WoW in failure denial.
Go Loose all you have made in the game over 6 months in one missile volley and then come here and say you enjoyed it then we can talk.
Now that people are sick of the spoon fed dribble coming out and are voicing up about it we expect the indusrtie to listen and develop the game we will enjoy. But no some asshat like you has to come in here ans spout WoW fanboisme.
PLEASE GO PLAY WOW IF YOUR SO DAMN HAPPY WITH IT!!!!
It seems your reply is totally wrong (reply was for other reply to respones to?)or you absolutely have no clue what he said, but he is 100% not a wowfanboi:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by blondeh In WoW the game starts at 70? WoW is like a sanbox after 70? You sir are an idiot.In SWG the game started the minute you loaded into Cnet, or Nabbo, or whichever destination you chose. That game never had a ending. You didnt need to max a combat proffesion to have any fun.SWG was the last of a TRUE MMORPG. WoW fans have no idea on what they missed.I just wish a really good, polished Sanbox game would be released and give all those poor mmorpg players (who have only ever played WoW etc) a real taste of what an mmorpg should look like.
I bet about 2699 players will not agree with you that SWG was a sand box.
It just shows that sandbox is a "hype" that doen't exist. A word without meaning.
And I bet if you link this to the WoW's forum (may it be US or EU side), you'll get laughed at due to the fact that people who play WoW understand that it is NOT a sandbox game, and they are ok with it. They like WoW as it is - a good, polished game with linear character progression... And I'm pretty sure if you ask whoever played SWG (Pre-CU) and WoW which is a sandbox game, most if not all would say SWG.
To OP when a game have lvls surten areas that are for open pvp only or give skulls for some carebear protection,its no sandbox game anymore its to restrictive.
The game developer tells you how to play, force you and restrict you in most basic freedoms of a sandbox game, so runescape is no sandbox game.
If whole world is non liniair no save zones no restrictions or saveguards on open pvp, be free whatever you wanne be or do with no help from ingame meganics, thats SANDBOX!.
Go read up gamelore Darkfall(dont matter if its ever released or not , or you hate this game,its about what is a sandbox game)then you realy understand what a sandbox game is.
Originally posted by Forcan Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by blondeh In WoW the game starts at 70? WoW is like a sanbox after 70? You sir are an idiot.In SWG the game started the minute you loaded into Cnet, or Nabbo, or whichever destination you chose. That game never had a ending. You didnt need to max a combat proffesion to have any fun.SWG was the last of a TRUE MMORPG. WoW fans have no idea on what they missed.I just wish a really good, polished Sanbox game would be released and give all those poor mmorpg players (who have only ever played WoW etc) a real taste of what an mmorpg should look like.
zondorf have absolutely no clue what a sandbox game is, he is just a wow fanboi and think he knows it all becouse he playes the most favorite mmo out there:P
This comment is a joke right? SWG wasn't a sandbox style game? What, were you one of those that started a year AFTER the NGE hit?