What gamers want is not always what's good for them

nethervoid · June 2008

I remember a time when most gamers knew this. You'd get a discussion on an EQ or UO board about removing some kind of 'bad' part of the game, and then you would have some people explain why the 'bad' part of the game was there. A good rundown of the positive things this 'bad' part of the game added, and what would happen if it were removed. And then most posters and sometimes even the OP would be like 'yeah ok that makes sense'.

One good example in real life is exercise. Most people friggin hate it, myself included, but what happens if you take it away? Exercise, while painful in the short term, has an exorbitant amount of long term benefit. Exercise provides weight loss, cardio strengthening, bone mass increase, increased metabolism, strengthening of the immune system, lowering of bad collesterol, etc.

The same can be said of many things in MMOs including:

Harsher death penalties

Regional banks

Reduced ease of travel

No global chat

No PvP protected areas

And the list could go on and on.

I really feel as time goes on, more and more gamers can't see past the immediate gain enough to understand the full set of changes that take place when you tweak a system. The number of threads where I find almost no forethought or sense of logical analysis is just staggering, and even to the point I don't even post a reply because I feel the OP is so dillusional or unable to think through to a conclusion I don't even bother trying to put the reasons out there.

Any of the older gamers out there (or hey, newer gamers too) that feel the same way?

Shlomo · June 2008

I agree. What dose not kill you makes you stronger. Had something like that in mind but am to bad with words to write it down. You have my vote.

karat76 · June 2008

I agree with most of what you say except for the issue of no pvp protected areas. I personally am not a big fan of pvp and don't think it should be forced on anyone. To me DAoC had the best method of dealing with this.

nethervoid · June 2008

Originally posted by karat76

I agree with most of what you say except for the issue of no pvp protected areas. I personally am not a big fan of pvp and don't think it should be forced on anyone. To me DAoC had the best method of dealing with this.

I can see this point very well. In UO I was not a fan of pvp, but the big difference was I had a REALLY good chance of escape if I was prepared (oh crap recall rune). That's what made it work IMO. In that kind of environment, even things like mining can be fun due to the added adrenaline rush of fight or flight. lol

LiquidWolf · June 2008

I am probably too young to be considered an "older" gamer, but I do agree.

In this day and age, a number of people are claiming that the generations are getting dumber. I frequently hear arguements that technology advocates this by making the generation more technology dependent, or that gratification has become very easy for these younger generations, and so they become impatient and unable to see the benefits of something like a Harsh Death Penalty, or no safe areas from PvP.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/10/24/notes102407.DTL <- here is just one article that will discuss this.

Now, I personally believe that it isn't they are getting dumber, (since IQ test scores keep rising) but that they are not required to KNOW information anymore, just know where to FIND it. This still doesn't change that a repercussion of this is that people want instant gratification NOW, and don't want to wait for it. You can find some studies on that too... (people who delay gratification typically wind up being managers and "higher" up in society) Todays market consists, predominantly, of people who are unable or unwilling to delay gratification and want things easy.

The market, however, isn't here to teach these people to be better, it is merely here to sell a product. So they must adapt their products to the people with the money, which would be the current "dumber" generations.

Yes it is sad, I too have come to enjoy open PvP, banks in different areas, and long open worlds that make it hard to travel across...

Herodes · June 2008

I disagree.

You have to learn, work hard, challenge, blah etc in real life.
For me in virtual life it is all about shallow fun.

You cannot mess real life with virtual life. If you do, ...mmh my english is too weak to explain it without offense.

Venger · June 2008

Harsh Death Penalties: What is harsh? Are we talking XP loss, item loss, item damage eventual distruction? XP loss, no terrible idea. Item loss or distruction is workable better for the economy too.

Regional Bank: What do you mean?

Reduced ease of Travel: UO had moongates and recall still was one of the "harder" games. I'm all for adding difficulty but having to waste time running isn't difficult.

Global Chat: Yeah I turn it off usually.

No PvP protected area: Oh ok I see this is a if you not a leet pvper then you like easy mode.

What needs to change is this mentality from developers and gamers a like that getting to end game (raids, pvp, or whatever) is the end all be all. UO was hard to master but anyone could play it. You didn't need to raid or pvp for hours straight to be good you just had to work at it. Took a very long time to gm a skill some more so then others but when you did you had a feeling of accomplishment. What need to come back is the challenge getting from point a to b not this masochistic I need pain to feel alive stuff.

nethervoid · June 2008

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Now, I personally believe that it isn't they are getting dumber, (since IQ test scores keep rising) but that they are not required to KNOW information anymore, just know where to FIND it. This still doesn't change that a repercussion of this is that people want instant gratification NOW, and don't want to wait for it. You can find some studies on that too... (people who delay gratification typically wind up being managers and "higher" up in society) Todays market consists predominantly of people who are unable or unwillilng to delay gratification and want things easy.

I think you might be on to something here. I think the problem is like what you suggest wherein kids are not asked to FIGURE OUT why something is, but instead just repeat the answer and where they got it from.

There's a big difference between knowing WHY something is the way it is, and just knowing the answer.

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by Herodes

I disagree.
You have to learn, work hard, challenge, blah etc in real life.

For me in virtual life it is all about shallow fun.
You cannot mess real life with virtual life. If you do, ...mmh my english is too weak to explain it without offense.

I agree with Herodes. I play games to be games. As soon as they start becoming a chore or work I can do, well, er... chores or work. And get a real benefit out of it. As someone said, no pain no gain. And the only tangible "gain" I'm going to get is from actually applying effort to my life.

For a game, the only gain that I am looking for is enjoyement. Oh sure, the things that the OP mentions might add deeper gamepaly but to what lvl only the individual can decide. And quite frankly, though I don't mean any insult, this just sounds like another "games need to go back to the old days" thread.

Again, the problem there is that it was a smaller group playing such games. Now that you have many, many more people playing, people who have lives who would think it ridiculous to apply any more than 30 minutes a night or every other night, it only stands to reason that some of the "older ways" are going to be altered.

Funny enough, many of the old games are still around but players don't want to play them. In some cases they say they changed. I wonder why they changed. Did they change because publishers got greedy or did they change because they just couldn't compete in an ever expanding market.

expanding on this:

The same can be said of many things in MMOs including:

Harsher death penalties

only good to the point where the player realizes he/she doesn't have the time to make up for the death pentalites... time to do something else

Regional banks

sure why not

Reduced ease of travel

Agreed as there is land to be experienced. However if a player has to constantly travel for 30+ minutes and he/she doesn't have the time... well, see #1

No global chat

Agreed because I don't want to hear you guys. Seriously, who cares what you had for dinner.

No PvP protected areas

Because all those people who spend good money but don't want pvp will continue spending that good money. This falls under the "everyone wants the same thing" idea which you must know is wrong.

Locklain · June 2008

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

I am probably too young to be considered an "older" gamer, but I do agree.
In this day and age, a number of people are claiming that the generations are getting dumber. I frequently hear arguements that technology advocates this by making the generation more technology dependent, or that gratification has become very easy for these younger generations, and so they become impatient and unable to see the benefits of something like a Harsh Death Penalty, or no safe areas from PvP.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/10/24/notes102407.DTL <- here is just one article that will discuss this.
Now, I personally believe that it isn't they are getting dumber, (since IQ test scores keep rising) but that they are not required to KNOW information anymore, just know where to FIND it. This still doesn't change that a repercussion of this is that people want instant gratification NOW, and don't want to wait for it. You can find some studies on that too... (people who delay gratification typically wind up being managers and "higher" up in society) Todays market consists predominantly of people who are unable or unwillilng to delay gratification and want things easy.
The market, however, isn't here to teach these people to be better, it is merely here to sell a product. So they must adapt their products to the people with the money, which would be the current "dumber" generations.
Yes it is sad, I too have come to enjoy open PvP, banks in different areas, and long open worlds that make it hard to travel across...

The newer generation's IQ has been on the rise but what seems to be lacking is common sense or "street smarts" if you will. Also along with the new generation (gamer or people in general) comes demand of service. No one takes assistance for granted anymore it just something that should be there and if its not look out.

LiquidWolf · June 2008

Originally posted by Herodes

I disagree.
You have to learn, work hard, challenge, blah etc in real life.

For me in virtual life it is all about shallow fun.
You cannot mess real life with virtual life. If you do, ...mmh my english is too weak to explain it without offense.

Well and I think that is just it... many of the older gamers see these worlds as MORE than just games... to many they offer a sense of achievement, a place to accomplish goals and meaningful tasks with friends.

The market has changed to fit the "shallow fun" playerbase, and to many of the older generation enjoyed the struggle of the game to be the best. This is no longer the case, things are less meaningful now.

I see it as the long climb up a mountain that takes months of training and equipment that must be purchased and understood. Once at the top of the mountain, a person who struggled through the climb, the training, and the work to afford the equipment, is met with a beautiful vision of what the world looks like at the top. He gets to see himself having achieved something great.

Then he gets to watch a helicopter land nearby with a group of people who wanted to see the same sight, but didn't want to work that hard for it... and yet never will appreciate it like he does.

nethervoid · June 2008

Originally posted by Sovrath

Harsher death penalties

only good to the point where the player realizes he/she doesn't have the time to make up for the death pentalites... time to do something else
Reduced ease of travel

Agreed as there is land to be experienced. However if a player has to constantly travel for 30+ minutes and he/she doesn't have the time... well, see #1

I think what you're talking about here is really a serious problem not only in the gaming world but in real life. Let's make stuff that everyone can complete means that while the morons are satisfied, those who excel are bored. Look at modern day american schools. Friggin easy street. Let's not give Jonny a C because it will make him feel bad. Boo friggin hoo. Maybe it will make him wise up to the fact he's a moron for not studying.

When you lower the common denominator, you lower the fun, IMO. Harsh death penalty just means I need to get some skill under my belt and not run around with no patience. Harsh death penalty makes everyone a better player.

Same thing really for online FPS like CoD4. Sure when I'm a noob I get rocked by the better players, but playing against very skilled people makes me much stronger as well. If you play vs weak people all the time, your skill will cap much lower than if you played with awesome people all the time.

Real life experience here. I used to play Magic the card game exclusively with people from UC Davis. I won some. I lost some. Always people were thinking of new card combos etc. Then I went to play in this hick town Woodland, and I couldn't find a single person who could give me a run for my money, because the skill pool there was horrible. Most people were like 'wow I never thought to try that'. After a few weeks of playing there, everyone had MUCH better decks, by playing me.

So death penalty is more about advancing the skills of the player, and at the same time really helps with the whole excitement of the danger!

nariusseldon · June 2008

This is complete BS.

We are talking about games here, guilty pleasures, not healthy habits. There is nothing "good" in the long run in games, there is only entertainment at the moment.

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by nethervoid

Originally posted by Sovrath

Harsher death penalties

only good to the point where the player realizes he/she doesn't have the time to make up for the death pentalites... time to do something else
Reduced ease of travel

Agreed as there is land to be experienced. However if a player has to constantly travel for 30+ minutes and he/she doesn't have the time... well, see #1

I think what you're talking about here is really a serious problem not only in the gaming world but in real life. Let's make stuff that everyone can complete means that while the morons are satisfied, those who excel are bored. Look at modern day american schools. Friggin easy street. Let's not give Jonny a C because it will make him feel bad. Boo friggin hoo. Maybe it will make him wise up to the fact he's a moron for not studying.

When you lower the common denominator, you lower the fun, IMO. Harsh death penalty just means I need to get some skill under my belt and not run around with no patience. Harsh death penalty makes everyone a better player.

Same thing really for online FPS like CoD4. Sure when I'm a noob I get rocked by the better players, but playing against very skilled people makes me much stronger as well. If you play vs weak people all the time, your skill will cap much lower than if you played with awesome people all the time.

Real life experience here. I used to play Magic the card game exclusively with people from UC Davis. I won some. I lost some. Always people were thinking of new card combos etc. Then I went to play in this hick town Woodland, and I couldn't find a single person who could give me a run for my money, because the skill pool there was horrible. Most people were like 'wow I never thought to try that'. After a few weeks of playing there, everyone had MUCH better decks, by playing me.

So death penalty is more about advancing the skills of the player, and at the same time really helps with the whole excitement of the danger!

But it actualy doesn't equate. Oh it's similiar but the differences are greater. Oh, and I agree with you about the whole education thing but that also has to do with the crying parents. But to continue...

Let's say there is a harsh death penalty.

The person who only has 30 minutes to play but dies once is going to be irked if they have a huge xp loss (and perhaps dropping items) and can't make it up.

The person who has 7 hours and dies 5 times and can play 7 hours per day won't be phased at all.

If a person has to travel 30 minutes and only has an hour to play then he is going to do something else. If a person has to travel 30 minutes but has 7 hours to play then no big deal.

It has nothing to do with skill and quite a bit to do with time to spend playing "video games'. They are games. Sorry but they don't matter. Not a whit. "real people" laugh at people who "waste" their time playing online games.

Heck, I met a guy a few weeks ago who said he was a bit of a gamer. I said I was as well. He asked what I played and I said "lineage 2 (among other things)". He said "oh hell, I don't play that online fantasy shit it takes too much time".

So now that we have more people actually discovering the "good stuff" in online games developers now have to figure out what works for "regular people" who doont' have the time or the inclination to deal with the "fantasy shit that takes too much time".

Locklain · June 2008

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

I see it as the long climb up a mountain that takes months of training and equipment that must be purchased and understood. Once at the top of the mountain, a person who struggled through the climb, the training, and the work to afford the equipment, is met with a beautiful vision of what the world looks like at the top. He gets to see himself having achieved something great.
Then he gets to watch a helicopter land nearby with a group of people who wanted to see the same sight, but didn't want to work that hard for it... and yet never will appreciate it like he does.

Great analogy. I believe you are right and this is how the issues are viewed in the MMO of today.

paulscott · June 2008

reigional banks are awesome for crafters... if crafting matters anyways... Obviously wouldn't work in an evergrind or wow game play style.

LiquidWolf · June 2008

Originally posted by nariusseldon

This is complete BS.
We are talking about games here, guilty pleasures, not healthy habits. There is nothing "good" in the long run in games, there is only entertainment at the moment.

The entertainment of each generation changes, and you can find gamers who probably remember a time without television...

I'm fairly certain science fiction or fantasy literature had someone say the exact same thing about it...

You are trivialising something that one generation probably saw as amazing and never thought would be possible...

A portable phone? How many channels? No more rabbit ears for the Boob Tube? What's next... being able to get a portable computer?

I believe few young people fully appreciate the age we are in...

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

I see it as the long climb up a mountain that takes months of training and equipment that must be purchased and understood. Once at the top of the mountain, a person who struggled through the climb, the training, and the work to afford the equipment, is met with a beautiful vision of what the world looks like at the top. He gets to see himself having achieved something great.
Then he gets to watch a helicopter land nearby with a group of people who wanted to see the same sight, but didn't want to work that hard for it... and yet never will appreciate it like he does.

Great analogy. I believe you are right and this is how the issues are viewed in the MMO of today.

yes but what he is completely missing is that the experience for him is the training the excercise, the accumulation of the equipment and then the journey to the view. That is what he signed up for and what he wanted. He could have taken the helicopter to see the view.

also, and this seems a bit heavey handed to mention but I'll throw it in there, I know people who would love to climb a mountain and see the view but there physical state just will never allow it. The view is still beautiful no matter what and no matter how you got there.

to say that because someone worked at it that in a sense he deserves it more is wrong. The view exists no matter what. The experience of climbing solely belongs to the climber and that is his reward.

LiquidWolf · June 2008

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

I see it as the long climb up a mountain that takes months of training and equipment that must be purchased and understood. Once at the top of the mountain, a person who struggled through the climb, the training, and the work to afford the equipment, is met with a beautiful vision of what the world looks like at the top. He gets to see himself having achieved something great.
Then he gets to watch a helicopter land nearby with a group of people who wanted to see the same sight, but didn't want to work that hard for it... and yet never will appreciate it like he does.

Great analogy. I believe you are right and this is how the issues are viewed in the MMO of today.

yes but what he is completely missing is that the experience for him is the training the excercise, the accumulation of the equipment and then the journey to the view. That is what he signed up for and what he wanted. He could have taken the helicopter to see the view.

also, and this seems a bit heavey handed to mention but I'll throw it in there, I know people who would love to climb a mountain and see the view but there physical state just will never allow it. The view is still beautiful no matter what and no matter how you got there.

to say that because someone worked at it that in a sense he deserves it more is wrong. The view exists no matter what. The experience of climbing solely belongs to the climber and that is his reward.

Oh I understand, but the problem is many people are beginning to notice that market is no longer around and that nothing is around the facilitate that desire anymore. The old spots are changing so that they are no longer useable even.

The climbing spots have been roped off and signs have been posted saying: No admittance. Danger!

Bars have been put in place around the scenic sight to prevent people from falling off, and an elevator is being installed for those that don't want to fly or take the chair lift.

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Oh I understand, but the problem is many people are beginning to notice that market is no longer around and that nothing is around the facilitate that desire anymore.

The climbing spots have been roped off and signs have been posted saying: No admittance. Danger!
Bars have been put in place around the scenic sight to prevent people from falling off, and an elevator is being installed for those that are afraid to fly or take the chair lift.

I think the market isn't around anymore because the population who wants such games is too small to support it. Oh sure, they were sufficient when there were a handful of games out there. But how many games can the market bear when they only have a small amount of the original people to play them.

Not many.

So what does a game company do? Do they just say, "oh well, let's just develop software for word processing instead"? No, they say, "well, what about the people who want to play games but don't want to spend hours per day"? "maybe we can develope a game like that".

And then they do and they are wildly successful and then some of the "hardcore" players realize that they can no longer play hours per day because "guess what" they actually have grown up and have families and jobs with more work and they develop other interests, etc. So they go to the casual games as well.

Now you have even fewer "hardcore" players to support them.

kaishi00 · June 2008

Well you see, that's the thing. New games don't give you the option to climb, but just gives you a helicopter and tells you to use it.

Ascension08 · June 2008

Yeah it's called instant gratification. Everyone wants it now and if there's something preventing them or delaying them getting what they want they think it's bad. Even if it's necessary or has more subtle long-term benefits.

Locklain · June 2008

Originally posted by Ascension08

Yeah it's called instant gratification. Everyone wants it now and if there's something preventing them or delaying them getting what they want they think it's bad. Even if it's necessary or has more subtle long-term benefits.

And this is why all MMOs will go to micro-transactions in the future, because lets face it there isn't much that is faster than a swipe of the credit card.

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by Ascension08

Yeah it's called instant gratification. Everyone wants it now and if there's something preventing them or delaying them getting what they want they think it's bad. Even if it's necessary or has more subtle long-term benefits.

I dont think that's always the case. I do think there are individuals who want EVERTHING handed to them though, no matter how "easy" it is made for them.

But it's not instant gratification if you want to accomplish something enjoyable in the time you have to devote to a hobby or pastime.

I'll point the finger back at you all. How many of you listen to Mahler Symphonies? Or Wagner? Or the larger and more thorny Schoenberg works? Probably not a lot. For a variety of reason. However, they are long and take hours in some cases. and you have to actually educate yourselves in order to have some sort of starting point from which you can enjoy it.

How many of you actually read longer works such as works from Dickens or Tolstoy? Or even shakespeare. And what about if it is written in the original form like the first folio?

Probably not a lot. So are you all instant gratification punks who don't have the inclination or not willing to spend the time to experience work that is considered by many to be huge offerings to music or literature.

No, because it has no meaning to you (probably) anymore. You don't have the time for operas that span 4 hours or the time to spend understand the concepts of 12 tone work so you can wrestle with thorny musical tapestries. Nevermind the idea that Dickens was paid by the word.

So instead you turn to work that has more meaning to what you are about, spoken in a language that has more resonance to what you are experiencing and something that you don't have to dedicate hours per night studying just so you can enjoy it.

Games fall into this same cultural place.

Zindaihas · June 2008

Originally posted by nethervoid

I remember a time when most gamers knew this. You'd get a discussion on an EQ or UO board about removing some kind of 'bad' part of the game, and then you would have some people explain why the 'bad' part of the game was there. A good rundown of the positive things this 'bad' part of the game added, and what would happen if it were removed. And then most posters and sometimes even the OP would be like 'yeah ok that makes sense'.
One good example in real life is exercise. Most people friggin hate it, myself included, but what happens if you take it away? Exercise, while painful in the short term, has an exorbitant amount of long term benefit. Exercise provides weight loss, cardio strengthening, bone mass increase, increased metabolism, strengthening of the immune system, lowering of bad collesterol, etc.
The same can be said of many things in MMOs including:
Harsher death penalties
Regional banks
Reduced ease of travel
No global chat
No PvP protected areas
And the list could go on and on.
I really feel as time goes on, more and more gamers can't see past the immediate gain enough to understand the full set of changes that take place when you tweak a system. The number of threads where I find almost no forethought or sense of logical analysis is just staggering, and even to the point I don't even post a reply because I feel the OP is so dillusional or unable to think through to a conclusion I don't even bother trying to put the reasons out there.
Any of the older gamers out there (or hey, newer gamers too) that feel the same way?

You are correct, sir. Games as complex as MMOs have to be viewed as a whole, not simply by their individual parts. We live in an instant gratification world, so too many people assume that if you just make everything quicker, easier, simpler, then it has to make the game more fun. Absolutely wrong. The game must first be interesting. To me (and I would argue to most people) interesting means challenging. If it's not challenging, it quickly becomes boring.

Death is a good example. With virtually no death penalty, you have nothing to lose. So why would you even care if you die? That's the key right there. You have to care. If you don't, your victory is going to be an empty one. But if you do have something to lose and you emerge victorious, then you can savor the victory.

That's why devs need to be extremely careful about pandering to gamers. What they think they want and what they really want are often two entirely different things.

nethervoid · June 2008

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Oh I understand, but the problem is many people are beginning to notice that market is no longer around and that nothing is around the facilitate that desire anymore.

The climbing spots have been roped off and signs have been posted saying: No admittance. Danger!
Bars have been put in place around the scenic sight to prevent people from falling off, and an elevator is being installed for those that are afraid to fly or take the chair lift.

I think the market isn't around anymore because the population who wants such games is too small to support it. Oh sure, they were sufficient when there were a handful of games out there. But how many games can the market bear when they only have a small amount of the original people to play them.

Not many.

So what does a game company do? Do they just say, "oh well, let's just develop software for word processing instead"? No, they say, "well, what about the people who want to play games but don't want to spend hours per day"? "maybe we can develope a game like that".

And then they do and they are wildly successful and then some of the "hardcore" players realize that they can no longer play hours per day because "guess what" they actually have grown up and have families and jobs with more work and they develop other interests, etc. So they go to the casual games as well.

Now you have even fewer "hardcore" players to support them.

This is called getting the prize without putting in the effort. Just like if you buy a 16 year old their first car, they don't appreciate it for what it is. They take it for granted and don't relish it. If you make them buy their first car, you get a whole different reaction.

I think you're proving my point well. The industry is now glut with people not willing to work for anything. Instant gratification is boring. People know this even though they don't 'get it'. Look at AoC. Easiest leveling there is, and people thought they would love that....yet they hate it. They don't know that what they think they want actually makes a crap game. Just like when you use cheat codes to play a game. When you take all the challenge out, the game gets boring very fast.

Also about the 30 minutes a night thing, I call bullshit on that. How many people in this country watch a 2 hour football game 3 days a week? You don't call them hardcore. Following any other sport or having any other hobby very easily takes up just as much time. Hell watching TV takes up more of America's time than any video game.

Lastly, I would say even in today's 'casual' industry, the number of gamers who play MMOs 30 minutes a night once a week or every other week is very very low. Even in WoW you wouldn't get far playing for 30 minutes.

So you see, those arguments are just not valid. People want things that are not good for them, but they don't have the insight or logical processing ability to see it.

Lastly, the current trend in MMO design makes me acutally think the MMO industry is being cannabalized by the single player/console industry where, as you mentioned, people don't have the patience for challenge and death penalties. I think this is mainly because in single player and consoles death penalties have little to no value at all, because there's nobody else playing besides yourself, so not much reason to have a death penalty in the first place. Single player/console games are definitely just the 'whimsicle' gaming experience, but I think it's bleeding profusely over to the MMO industry, probably thanks in most part by WoW (which was really just bringing all the D2 people over from single player to MMOs).

Yes there are more console type gamers out there, hence the MMO industry is just going to get beat around and gobbled up by them to the point eventually we won't have any real MMOs left. Everything will be single serving, just like consoles.

I got off the topic a bit there...gah.

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