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ValendrosValendros las vegas, NVPosts: 123Member

There's a debate going on in the official boards right now and I wanted your thoughts. (It's probably a moot point since it's probably already set in stone)

Knowing what we know about HJ, how they have class-dependent services (eg. you need to go to a healer to get healed, a rogue to pick your boxes etc). How Simu typically charges for additional characters, and your experience in other MMOs...

It's my thought that HJ should offer class switching similar to FFXI, unlimited crafting opportunities (Most games you are forced to choose 1-3 crafting paths), and fairly unlimited locker space.

 

My reasoning is simply that if you don't let the players do what they want in regards to classes, crafting, and locker space, they're just going to create characters that do these things anyway and any system where you need >1 character for any reason other than a purely RP reason is broken.

If I want to take the time to level up my rogue to pick the boxes of my main (only) character, I should be able to do that on my single character. Either way, if they offer it or they don't, I'll make a 2nd character, level IT up and send the boxes to him anyway.

If I want to take the time to level up all my crafting skills to max, I should be able to do that on my main (only) character. Or else, I'll just make other characters to craft what I want anyway.

If I want to have a bunch of gear and items that I like or for whatever reason want to keep. I should be able to do that on my main (only) character. Or else, I'll just make a locker character to hold all my crap anyway.

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Comments

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Valendros


    There's a debate going on in the official boards right now and I wanted your thoughts. (It's probably a moot point since it's probably already set in stone)
    Knowing what we know about HJ, how they have class-dependent services (eg. you need to go to a healer to get healed, a rogue to pick your boxes etc). How Simu typically charges for additional characters, and your experience in other MMOs...
    It's my thought that HJ should offer class switching similar to FFXI, unlimited crafting opportunities (Most games you are forced to choose 1-3 crafting paths), and fairly unlimited locker space.
     
    My reasoning is simply that if you don't let the players do what they want in regards to classes, crafting, and locker space, they're just going to create characters that do these things anyway and any system where you need >1 character for any reason other than a purely RP reason is broken.
    If I want to take the time to level up my rogue to pick the boxes of my main (only) character, I should be able to do that on my single character. Either way, if they offer it or they don't, I'll make a 2nd character, level IT up and send the boxes to him anyway.
    If I want to take the time to level up all my crafting skills to max, I should be able to do that on my main (only) character. Or else, I'll just make other characters to craft what I want anyway.
    If I want to have a bunch of gear and items that I like or for whatever reason want to keep. I should be able to do that on my main (only) character. Or else, I'll just make a locker character to hold all my crap anyway.

    Difficult to reply to this if you want a classless system where any char can do anything well you may have to go elsewhere. Having played simutronics games I will be happy with their design and also playing a few different charachters. I guess it is all a matter of choice, all players can do what they want they choose the charachter they want to play .. Simutronics make the rules and own the design.

    I guess maybe you should go design a game and get the investment if you have good ideas on what you want. I prefer to see what Simu come up with and enjoy.... pre conceptions and too much want on how a game works will literally ruin it for yourself.

     

     

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • ValendrosValendros las vegas, NVPosts: 123Member

    The biggest problem I've had in explaining this is that people don't get it.

    All I'm saying is that there shouldn't be any reason to make another character other than that you want to be another persona (be that another faction, another race, another RP type). Locker characters, crafting characters, support characters all shouldn't exist. You should be able to do those three things on your main without interference.

    This doesn't boil down to a classless system. Does FFXI have a classless system? It just means you can switch classes when in town once every so often. So you could make it be you can only switch to a different class once an hour or something.

    If you look at a game like FFXI where this does occur for some part (you still need crafting characters, locker characters, and Auction House characters), you don't see that everybody has every class leveled to 100. Most people don't even have more than 4 or 5. They just enjoy the flexability.

  • DraqDraq Podunk, IAPosts: 297Member

    I'm just going to paste my reply from the official boards because I'm too lazy to put any effort into this board anymore.


    I've given options for this. Give time delays between class switching. Or a quest to switch. This would prevent people from being their own picker/healer etc. That's assuming you will have damage other than just HP loss.

     

     This does not prevent

     


     >Games that try to force you into SCS have to do silly things like being able to lobotomize your character at will to switch professions at the drop of a hat because your group is short on *ability X* when you're current template is *ability Y* based. Complete and utter stupidity.

     


     This.

     


     >This will be ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT than me making a 2nd character for picking the boxes. Or a 3rd for making soul jars. Or a 4th to get my Alchemy needs met. ZERO difference. And by not offering this solution, you're just going to have multiple characters - which is B R O K E N, and tedious.

     


     If it's absolutely no different, then how is it any more broken than what you're suggesting? The only difference is you'd end up with less choice as to what to do for that day, which is a bad thing.

     


     >Forcing your community to have Crafting, Locker, or Service Alts is BAD. It forces ANTI-RP onto the community (Where's Surgla? Oh, he's on his  locksmith Algrus right now. I need him as a DD. Oh he'll jump on Urgla and join you). It forces anti-community and tedium into your characters (I  have to create 3 extra characters to keep all my stuff. I needed a locksmith so I leveled one of them to be able to pick my boxes). And it  requires people to make consessions for bad design (George can't come with us. We had 1 spot open in our group and he doesn't have a healer).

     


     And of course all of these fatal design problems would be magically solved by allowing class switching even though there's "Zero difference" between it and multiple characters, right? And instead of a healer alt, George can just switch to healer, thereby fitting in and destroying any and all character consistancy.

     


     The issue I'm trying to point out is that if you're able to switch classes at ANY POINT; your class, which should be the most important decision in creating a character, immediately becomes trivial.


  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Draq


    I'm just going to paste my reply from the official boards because I'm too lazy to put any effort into this board anymore.

    I've given options for this. Give time delays between class switching. Or a quest to switch. This would prevent people from being their own picker/healer etc. That's assuming you will have damage other than just HP loss.

     

     This does not prevent

     


     >Games that try to force you into SCS have to do silly things like being able to lobotomize your character at will to switch professions at the drop of a hat because your group is short on *ability X* when you're current template is *ability Y* based. Complete and utter stupidity.

     


     This.

     


     >This will be ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT than me making a 2nd character for picking the boxes. Or a 3rd for making soul jars. Or a 4th to get my Alchemy needs met. ZERO difference. And by not offering this solution, you're just going to have multiple characters - which is B R O K E N, and tedious.

     


     If it's absolutely no different, then how is it any more broken than what you're suggesting? The only difference is you'd end up with less choice as to what to do for that day, which is a bad thing.

     


     >Forcing your community to have Crafting, Locker, or Service Alts is BAD. It forces ANTI-RP onto the community (Where's Surgla? Oh, he's on his  locksmith Algrus right now. I need him as a DD. Oh he'll jump on Urgla and join you). It forces anti-community and tedium into your characters (I  have to create 3 extra characters to keep all my stuff. I needed a locksmith so I leveled one of them to be able to pick my boxes). And it  requires people to make consessions for bad design (George can't come with us. We had 1 spot open in our group and he doesn't have a healer).

     


     And of course all of these fatal design problems would be magically solved by allowing class switching even though there's "Zero difference" between it and multiple characters, right? And instead of a healer alt, George can just switch to healer, thereby fitting in and destroying any and all character consistancy.

     


     The issue I'm trying to point out is that if you're able to switch classes at ANY POINT; your class, which should be the most important decision in creating a character, immediately becomes trivial.


    This thread is a bit of a dead duck , it goes against some key game concepts. And if the OP doesn't understand this uhm well it's tricky. Can't really say much more

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • FennrisFennris White Plains, NYPosts: 273Member Uncommon

    Lots of people actually puke at the idea of a class-less game but there have been so few attempts at making one that I'm not sure where the apprehension is coming from.  From a design perspective, it may be tough to give players lots of customization options that won't be gimp and/or "sub-optimal" without forcing them into a distinct and committed branch (a class), but it's do-able...


    AC1 is basically class-less but the designers had 0 experience and obivously didn't know what they were doing (ie: Vagabond/Blademaster templates).  That game was still successful but ultimately lost vs EQ1, mostly for other reasons...

    In PnP games, probably the most famous other than D&D is Champions which is class-less... that wasn't balanced at all (neither was D&D for that matter) but it was a lot of fun.

    DR is mostly class-based but it also allows for a lot of independence and overlap.  Anyone can learn to pop their own boxes, forge their own weapons/armor, hide/stalk, wear armor, use a sword and bow, etc.  The various classes are faster learners at their specialties and have abilities that complement them, but there's nothing stopping a trader or cleric from becoming deadly to anyone with a crossbow in that world.  Compared to what we have now, I'd be very happy with that sort of flexibility.

     

  • DraqDraq Podunk, IAPosts: 297Member



    Anyone can learn to pop their own boxes, forge their own weapons/armor, hide/stalk, wear armor, use a sword and bow, etc



    Not quite.



    Sure you CAN pop your own boxes, but only thieves can...well let's just say thieves are the absolute best at it with no questions asked. Plus unless it's changed only thieves can make lockpicks worth using. Barbarians and Paladins forge weapons and armor (respectively) far beyond what any other class can.



    While anyone CAN hide/stalk or wear plate armor, it's made far more difficult if your class doesn't like it.  Only barbarians and rangers can fire two arrows at once with a bow.  Your armor choice also decides how stealthy you can be. Stealth+Plate=no.



    Only moon mages can create magic items, only clerics can raise, only empaths can heal.



    Not to mention all the many other skill specific bonuses and abilities. DR is a VERY class based game. Sure it's POSSIBLE to get healed without an empath by foraging or buying herbs, but that not only takes forever, but you need a lot of money and/or foraging skill.



    Also clerics are just plain scary in DR. Nobody screws with them.



    While I wouldn't mind seeing a classless game done right, the concept goes completely against HJ's game philosophy. They very clearly intended for people to need eachother.

  • ValendrosValendros las vegas, NVPosts: 123Member

    I keep seeing "Classless" being brought up.

    Is FFXI a classless game?

  • FennrisFennris White Plains, NYPosts: 273Member Uncommon

    <<

    Anyone can learn to pop their own boxes, forge their own weapons/armor, hide/stalk, wear armor, use a sword and bow, etc


     



    Not quite. ...

    >>

    Look... I qualified my statement and -never- said that DR was class-less.  But it is far less class-based than most other games. 

    Outside of HJ, which probably doesn't have anything finalized yet anyways, what is the fear with a class-less game?

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,630Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Fennris


    <<
    Anyone can learn to pop their own boxes, forge their own weapons/armor, hide/stalk, wear armor, use a sword and bow, etc

     


    Not quite. ...
    >>
    Look... I qualified my statement and -never- said that DR was class-less.  But it is far less class-based than most other games. 
    Outside of HJ, which probably doesn't have anything finalized yet anyways, what is the fear with a class-less game?
    No fear but thats just no HJ , you will have to go elsewhere if you think Simmutronics will do anything other than what they want to. Lots of skills but not classless.

    If I get to see someone attempt to open a chest in the town square and proceed to loose an arm as the trap activates and rips into them. Then I will know HJ have done a good job... lets hope.

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • ValendrosValendros las vegas, NVPosts: 123Member

    Oh now that would be fun to watch!

    My first 2 weeks in game will be spent wherever box pickers congregate to see the traps they set off.

    I'd love to see a scarab burrowing into their skin and watch their avatar freaking out.

    Or a sulphur trap turn them into a big pile of goo.

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,630Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Valendros


    Oh now that would be fun to watch!
    My first 2 weeks in game will be spent wherever box pickers congregate to see the traps they set off.
    I'd love to see a scarab burrowing into their skin and watch their avatar freaking out.
    Or a sulphur trap turn them into a big pile of goo.
    Yes , I would buy the game just to watch people kill themselves in the main town square. IF they have nice graphics to boot all the better.

    Especially if they manage to implement Empaths as per the MUDs, it was always nice crawling back to town out of herbs and half dead an adventure in itself.

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • mrdoublerrmrdoublerr midlandsPosts: 269Member

    go play eve or final fantasy XI

    or ryzom but its dead now

    I bet there's some more for you to enjoy

    if you dont like it, dont play it

     

     

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