Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Thief-classes in MMOs

2

Comments

  • BesCirgaBesCirga StavangerPosts: 806Member

    Sounds to me that the OP wants to play a Cat-Burgler, not a Rogue or Thief... I personally think Rogues and Cutthroats are represented very well in most MMO's, aside from invisibility stealth.

  • AntariousAntarious Greenville, SCPosts: 2,802Member

    Ultima Online back in the day.. had a good thief skill set.

    got to the point that anyone that stood by you at the bank was probably "snooping" (yes that was a skill too if you didn't play).

    Was a way to not have things stolen but most didn't know it.  Using all names and randomly stealing things from the people on the roof of the bank was fun.

    Stun/disarm theif... /drool.

    Ya I like to play this type of skill set myself...

    Moderator's on this site allow certain posters to create endless troll threads. Yet "warn" people for giving recommendations... account *pending* deletion because.. why bother.

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,958Member Uncommon

     I'm just don't understand what the Op is looking for. how can you expect a thief have any real purpose in ANY MMO if he main purpose is being a thief. Thief has to be a sub-category, thats why there are rarely called thief's. 

    WoW there rogues.

    D&D there rogues.

    EQ2 there Swashbucklers.

     Every MMO you must have some sort of ballance with every class, in order to do the same quest Dungeons, and PvP as everyone else, or you may as well have Auto Mechanics too.

     As far as thief abilities WoW had it down well, at lv. 38 I would stealth past everything just to fight the boss for a drop on a good dagger all by myself, use flash powder re-stealth and get the heck out of there. 

     I would stealth into the Hunterland and steal the Mallet needed for ZF all by myself,  It would take a party of five to get that !!  

     I would be soooo deep in caves way above my level that I would really be scared at times.

     If I did not have othere stuff to do I could have done creative stuff like this forever !!!

  • gillvane1gillvane1 anytown, WYPosts: 1,503Member

    Originally posted by fischsemmel


    Are there any MMOs around that treat thieves like they are actually thieves?
     
    In my experience, every single MMO out there treats the "thief" class(es) as a lightly armored fighter who usually inflicts extra damage against an opponent when he is attacking from behind. Sometimes these so-called thieves also know how to use poison, have some skill with throwing daggers or shooting bows/crossbows, can pick pockets (for very small change). But, basically, they are not a true thief class... they are just, like I said, a variation of a fighter.
     
    Even in DDO, a game that you'd THINK would make a thief what it should be, the thief is less of a thief than he is a lightly armored fighter, who sacrifices some versatility the fighter has for being able to disarm traps and sneak around. Woohoo. Sneaking is so much fun, especially when there is virtually no reason to do any sneaking!
     
     
    THIS is what I think of when I hear thief, rogue, or any similar thing: a skill-oriented character, who often relies upon luck as much as anything else, who does not fight unless absolutely forced to because he pretty much sucks at it, but who doesn't need to fight, because he has the skills necessary to avoid it and to reach his true objective... whatever it is he's going to steal.
    Thieves, in my mind, scale walls in the rich part of town, quietly navigate a courtyard and stick to the shadows to avoid the notice of guards, scale the side of the building to gain access to an open, second-story window, etc. They then navigate the interior of a lavish mansion, obviously in search of valubles. Maybe they find a safe behind a painting and disarm a trap on the safe before skillfully cracking the safe. Of course, they're remaining quiet the whole time so as not to wake the master of the house, asleep with his wife in bed 10 feet away. And, of course, they are clever enough to realize that those steps coming down the hallway mean they'd better cover that safe back up and hide somewhere quick before the guard sticks his head in to check on his employer's safety.
    Then, when the thief does crack the safe, he doesn't grab the +5 vorpal longsword of fiery wrath and the studded leather armor of +10 str and con... he grabs the jewels, the banknotes, the deeds, the secret documents that he could later use to blackmail this rich dude... maybe he leaves a calling card for style points. And then he sneaks out as carefully as he snuck in.
    If he DOES get spotted, he probably doesn't fight first... he runs, or hides, or whatever. If he does have to fight, he relies, again, on skill. He dodges, moves constantly, attacks when it is safe to do so. He doesn't stand there taking hits while trying to cut the guard's throat... he's a thief, not a berserker.
     
    But you get the picture. I would pay good money to play an MMO where thieves are THIEVES, or that is focused on thieves and their variations (brigands, burglars, pickpockets, spies, even the ever-popular assassin). There's a lot of potential here.

     

    That all works great in a table top game, where the Dungeon Master can create any scenario at will, since all that is required is imagination, and the Dungeon Master also has the ability to balance the game on the fly, rewarding the Theif with just enough loot, and not to much.

     

    It also works well in a Single Player RPG.

     

    But how do you expect that to work in an MMORPG without destroying balance in the game, either in PvE or PvP?

  • CleffyIICleffyII The Moon, CAPosts: 3,440Member

    O.O someone didn't read the description of Rogue and just read what skills they use.  Just like many mmo devs.  Rogue's are cocky loners that are more of Jack of All Trades.  Mainly to show off.  They aren't some Assassin who sneaks around behind corners and doesn't want anyone to know who they are.  They want everyone to know who they are, what they accomplished, and more importantly they were the main figure behind it.

    image

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by page


     I'm just don't understand what the Op is looking for. how can you expect a thief have any real purpose in ANY MMO if he main purpose is being a thief. Thief has to be a sub-category, thats why there are rarely called thief's. 
    WoW there rogues.
    D&D there rogues.
    EQ2 there Swashbucklers.
     Every MMO you must have some sort of ballance with every class, in order to do the same quest Dungeons, and PvP as everyone else, or you may as well have Auto Mechanics too.
     As far as thief abilities WoW had it down well, at lv. 38 I would stealth past everything just to fight the boss for a drop on a good dagger all by myself, use flash powder re-stealth and get the heck out of there. 
     I would stealth into the Hunterland and steal the Mallet needed for ZF all by myself,  It would take a party of five to get that !!  
     I would be soooo deep in caves way above my level that I would really be scared at times.
     If I did not have othere stuff to do I could have done creative stuff like this forever !!!
    I want a thief class that is a thief (cat burglar, if you prefer), and not a brigand/assassin/dungeon delver. I think that has been well established by now.

     

    How can I expect a thief to have any "real purpose"? Jesus Christ, man. You, and apparently millions of others including most of the MMO devs, are SO FREAKING STUCK on the way WoW and company are built that you can't even imagine a game that is not WoW. You can't even imagine something so incredibly outlandish (note the sarcasm) as a thief that exists for the "real purpose" of stealing stuff. You are so set on believing that the earth is flat you scoff at anyone who says that maybe it is actually a sphere.

    Just because what I envision as a thief, because what I want to see in a thief class, is (probably) not directly compatible with WoW as WoW is at this very instant does not mean that what I want could not be made to work within the general framework of WoW with just some relatively limited changes to the game, let alone that my concept of a thief could work in a completely different game.

    Here is an example of how something that used to not work in MMOs now is taken for granted, in general. In Everquest 1, pre-Lost Dungeons of Norrath, there were no instances. There was only one of each of the bosses in the game, and they had long respawns. But, there were multiple guilds after these bosses. Obviously there was an issue: there were too few bosses/spawns for the number of guilds interested in killing them. In WoW, though, they tried to fix this issue by instancing. Suddenly, the same boss could be killed by every guild on the server. Gone were worries about competing for the kill, or limited item drops for a large number of players. YOU are someone who ran around on forums before WoW came out, saying "How can there ever be enough bosses for all the players? You just can't make that much content!" You never realized that maybe you don't have to make an infinite amount of content to keep people content, but that you just need to make the content that does exist accessible to everyone. You cannot think outside of the box.

     

    So, my rant about your lack of vision aside, you are somewhat right that "every MMO ... must have some sort of ballance with every class". That is why earlier I mentioned that should a thief like I envision be implemented in present-day MMO that there would have to be mechanics in the game to ensure that thievery wasn't too rewarding for the thief, too easy, or too much of a pain for other players.

    That is, of course, assuming that you even put such a thief in a game that is out today. If you designed a game FOR thieves (gee, I feel like I've said this all before...) you wouldn't have quite the same "balance" issue to fuss over.

     

    Finally... if you could keep yourself entertained forever in WoW by using all of the thief-like abilities that your rogue had at level 38, well then I'm going to have to go ahead and say you are very easily entertained. You might be as content with a slinky or a jump rope as you are with WoW.

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by CleffyII


    O.O someone didn't read the description of Rogue and just read what skills they use.  Just like many mmo devs.  Rogue's are cocky loners that are more of Jack of All Trades.  Mainly to show off.  They aren't some Assassin who sneaks around behind corners and doesn't want anyone to know who they are.  They want everyone to know who they are, what they accomplished, and more importantly they were the main figure behind it.

    Ahh, the universal rogue description. I should have looked there before I said anything. You're right.

     

    But seriously, folks. What someone else has said about what a rogue is does not necessarily have any influence at all on what I think a thief should be, or on what I would like to see in a thief in an MMO.

  • CleffyIICleffyII The Moon, CAPosts: 3,440Member

    "Sounds to me that the OP wants to play a Cat-Burgler, not a Rogue or Thief... I personally think Rogues and Cutthroats are represented very well in most MMO's, aside from invisibility stealth."

    Oops shoulda quoted the guy first.  I agree with your vision of a thief.  Just people making Rogues out to be some assassin or thug isn't very good.

    image

  • vajurasvajuras Austin, TXPosts: 2,860Member


    Originally posted by fischsemmel
    Are there any MMOs around that treat thieves like they are actually thieves?
     
    In my experience, every single MMO out there treats the "thief" class(es) as a lightly armored fighter who usually inflicts extra damage against an opponent when he is attacking from behind. Sometimes these so-called thieves also know how to use poison, have some skill with throwing daggers or shooting bows/crossbows, can pick pockets (for very small change). But, basically, they are not a true thief class... they are just, like I said, a variation of a fighter.
     
    Even in DDO, a game that you'd THINK would make a thief what it should be, the thief is less of a thief than he is a lightly armored fighter, who sacrifices some versatility the fighter has for being able to disarm traps and sneak around. Woohoo. Sneaking is so much fun, especially when there is virtually no reason to do any sneaking!
     
     
    THIS is what I think of when I hear thief, rogue, or any similar thing: a skill-oriented character, who often relies upon luck as much as anything else, who does not fight unless absolutely forced to because he pretty much sucks at it, but who doesn't need to fight, because he has the skills necessary to avoid it and to reach his true objective... whatever it is he's going to steal.
    Thieves, in my mind, scale walls in the rich part of town, quietly navigate a courtyard and stick to the shadows to avoid the notice of guards, scale the side of the building to gain access to an open, second-story window, etc. They then navigate the interior of a lavish mansion, obviously in search of valubles. Maybe they find a safe behind a painting and disarm a trap on the safe before skillfully cracking the safe. Of course, they're remaining quiet the whole time so as not to wake the master of the house, asleep with his wife in bed 10 feet away. And, of course, they are clever enough to realize that those steps coming down the hallway mean they'd better cover that safe back up and hide somewhere quick before the guard sticks his head in to check on his employer's safety.
    Then, when the thief does crack the safe, he doesn't grab the +5 vorpal longsword of fiery wrath and the studded leather armor of +10 str and con... he grabs the jewels, the banknotes, the deeds, the secret documents that he could later use to blackmail this rich dude... maybe he leaves a calling card for style points. And then he sneaks out as carefully as he snuck in.
    If he DOES get spotted, he probably doesn't fight first... he runs, or hides, or whatever. If he does have to fight, he relies, again, on skill. He dodges, moves constantly, attacks when it is safe to do so. He doesn't stand there taking hits while trying to cut the guard's throat... he's a thief, not a berserker.
     
    But you get the picture. I would pay good money to play an MMO where thieves are THIEVES, or that is focused on thieves and their variations (brigands, burglars, pickpockets, spies, even the ever-popular assassin). There's a lot of potential here.

    That's exactly how thieves work in Elder scrolls there is also an entire guild with missions for thievery

    Thats exactly what I did in elder scrolls that exact same scenario

    Not an MMO tho unfortunately....

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by vajuras


     
     
    That's exactly how thieves work in Elder scrolls there is also an entire guild with missions for thievery
    Thats exactly what I did in elder scrolls that exact same scenario
    Not an MMO tho unfortunately....

    We can dream, eh?

  • wikiewikie LondonPosts: 209Member

    thief classes in MMO's are the one's who deal crit damage

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by wikie


    thief classes in MMO's are the one's who deal crit damage

    It's a bird! It's a plane! No, no, it's a troll!

     

    Or maybe it's just a 2nd grader on mommy's computer. Gotta love the weekends, when the kiddies can be browsing the web instead of learning how to fingerpaint in school.

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member

    At least DDO has the class closer to what it should be than any other MMO.

    image

  • VincenzVincenz Columbus, OHPosts: 1,498Member

    Originally posted by sinjin


    At least DDO has the class closer to what it should be than any other MMO.

    Agreed, but even as a huge DDO supporter I'd like to see DDO include even more of the skillsets in quests too.  More use of diplomacy and bluff particularly, for more than just aggro management and the half dozen NPCs it's useful for.  I think that would bring a lot to the game, and it seems from the last couple mods they're going that direction.

     

    Again though, as others have said, for you to have a whole "Thief Oriented Campaign" where you've got a very detailed quest set for just one class...you're pretty much going to have to have a game set around that one class, like Thief Online.

  • BesCirgaBesCirga StavangerPosts: 806Member

    Originally posted by CleffyII


    "Sounds to me that the OP wants to play a Cat-Burgler, not a Rogue or Thief... I personally think Rogues and Cutthroats are represented very well in most MMO's, aside from invisibility stealth."
    Oops shoulda quoted the guy first.  I agree with your vision of a thief.  Just people making Rogues out to be some assassin or thug isn't very good.

    Actually, a Rogue or thief would assassinate for the right cash, he is just not specialized in it. My point is; The Thief class has a enormous videspread of various sub-classes and skills, like: Blackmailing, forgery, mugging, picking pockets, robbery, spying, kidnapping, murdering, fencing and probably alot more. As for the OP who seems to favour robbery, which is fun, I agree, but we all have our favourites and the MMO companies has to choose and most went with murdering, which is the best choice imo.

    If I were to implant robbery to an MMO, I wouldnt made it a class, but rather a crafting school, or trade school if you will, exclusively for the Rogue/thief classes.

  • jdkskipjdkskip Temple, PAPosts: 119Member

    Originally posted by Lobotomist


    Only MMO that have the true Thief class is Shadowbane
    But for the same reason thieves there are hated by everyone. It is hard gaining trust , even joining guilds.
    But hell is it fun :)
     
    As Lobotomist said, Shadowbane is the game for thieves. With server resets up-coming on the 25th, I believe, it would be a good time to check it out.

    Thieves are extremely valuble especially when sieging a city. A thief/rogue with a sobteur rune can sneak into a city, disable spires, break siege engines and cause choas inside and out side a city. But be warned, this game and profession is not for the faint of heart. Take your time, learn all you can about the toon you want to play and first and formost try to get into a guild ASAP.

    http://chronicle.ubi.com/Saboteur+Powers.php

  • wikiewikie LondonPosts: 209Member

    most of the time they are richest one

     

  • wjrasmussenwjrasmussen west toluca lake, CAPosts: 1,493Member
    Originally posted by fischsemmel


     
    Originally posted by vajuras


     
     
    That's exactly how thieves work in Elder scrolls there is also an entire guild with missions for thievery
    Thats exactly what I did in elder scrolls that exact same scenario
    Not an MMO tho unfortunately....

     

    We can dream, eh?



    What is the difference between say a DND game run by a server vs a human Dungeon Master?  IMO, the depth of environment interaction required for a excellent thief experience is simply not fully realized by computer games in the MMO field.  Not that you couldn't make a computer game with a good experience.  A human DM has a lot of creative advantages to bring to the game.

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by wjrasmussen




    What is the difference between say a DND game run by a server vs a human Dungeon Master?  IMO, the depth of environment interaction required for a excellent thief experience is simply not fully realized by computer games in the MMO field.  Not that you couldn't make a computer game with a good experience.  A human DM has a lot of creative advantages to bring to the game.
    The only difference is that in D&D the DM doesn't need to plan out every possibility before hand to allow for a great experience by his players, because he will be there to improvise if necessary. In an MMO though, the game ends up seriously lacking unless the devs had enough foresight to account for at least most of the things a player might try to do in a given situation.

    Personally, I don't think doing so would be THAT difficult, but you're certainly right when you say that this doesn't exist in an MMO yet. Today's MMOs just have a focus on finding the ultimate pvp and pve balance between classes, or on the next big raid zone or something, instead of on the little things that would be necessary to make a great thiefy game possible, let alone enjoyable.

  • FreddyNoNoseFreddyNoNose LosAngeles, CAPosts: 1,558Member

    Originally posted by fischsemmel


     
    Originally posted by wjrasmussen




    What is the difference between say a DND game run by a server vs a human Dungeon Master?  IMO, the depth of environment interaction required for a excellent thief experience is simply not fully realized by computer games in the MMO field.  Not that you couldn't make a computer game with a good experience.  A human DM has a lot of creative advantages to bring to the game.
    The only difference is that in D&D the DM doesn't need to plan out every possibility before hand to allow for a great experience by his players, because he will be there to improvise if necessary. In an MMO though, the game ends up seriously lacking unless the devs had enough foresight to account for at least most of the things a player might try to do in a given situation.

     

    Personally, I don't think doing so would be THAT difficult, but you're certainly right when you say that this doesn't exist in an MMO yet. Today's MMOs just have a focus on finding the ultimate pvp and pve balance between classes, or on the next big raid zone or something, instead of on the little things that would be necessary to make a great thiefy game possible, let alone enjoyable.

    Perhaps you are right, it might not be that tough.

    http://www.loebner.net/Prizef/loebner-prize.html is something someone who could do this might be able to win.  Especially  if it isn't that tough.

  • Originally posted by fischsemmel

    Are there any MMOs around that treat thieves like they are actually thieves?
     
    In my experience, every single MMO out there treats the "thief" class(es) as a lightly armored fighter who usually inflicts extra damage against an opponent when he is attacking from behind. Sometimes these so-called thieves also know how to use poison, have some skill with throwing daggers or shooting bows/crossbows, can pick pockets (for very small change). But, basically, they are not a true thief class... they are just, like I said, a variation of a fighter.
     
    Even in DDO, a game that you'd THINK would make a thief what it should be, the thief is less of a thief than he is a lightly armored fighter, who sacrifices some versatility the fighter has for being able to disarm traps and sneak around. Woohoo. Sneaking is so much fun, especially when there is virtually no reason to do any sneaking!



    If the Thief class is what you most desire, you desperatly NEED to play WoW.
    WoW easily has the best ever thief class out of any mmorpg. For thieves there IS a reason to sneak around in WoW or else you will die.

    In WoW a thief can litterally go into any dungeon, and ROB every single NPC, ROB every treasure chest, all without a single fight. They can do it with no cloths on, no armor on, no weapons on. If they are a good thief.

    In WoW the main occupation of a thief is to ROB, ROB, STEAL, STEAL. Constantly picking pockets all the time. And if they get caught? They have their ultimate "Vanish" move. Vanish in a cloud of smoke. By level 20 you start seeing positive results from Thievery. By level 30 is when a thief becomes decent. By level 50 they become a master thief due to the fact by then they can use almost any skill on the Thief Skill Tree.
    It's easier to level from 1-10 in 1-2 hours from pure fighting. Then level 10 to 20 from questing and fighting.

    And if a player wants to use their thief for other things, yes they can also - like fighting, using crossbows, throwing daggers, etc....
  • <blockquote><i>Originally posted by fischsemmel</i>
    <br><b><p>Are there any MMOs around that treat thieves like they are actually thieves?</p>
    <p> </p>
    <p>In my experience, every single MMO out there treats the "thief" class(es) as a lightly armored fighter who usually inflicts extra damage against an opponent when he is attacking from behind. Sometimes these so-called thieves also know how to use poison, have some skill with throwing daggers or shooting bows/crossbows, can pick pockets (for very small change). But, basically, they are not a true thief class... they are just, like I said, a variation of a fighter.</p>
    <p> </p>
    <p>Even in DDO, a game that you'd THINK would make a thief what it should be, the thief is less of a thief than he is a lightly armored fighter, who sacrifices some versatility the fighter has for being able to disarm traps and sneak around. Woohoo. Sneaking is so much fun, especially when there is virtually no reason to do any sneaking!</p>

    If the Thief class is what you most desire, you desperatly NEED to play WoW.
    WoW easily has the best ever thief class out of any mmorpg. For thieves there IS a reason to sneak around in WoW or else you will die.

    In WoW a thief can litterally go into any dungeon, and ROB every single NPC, ROB every treasure chest, all without a single fight. They can do it with no cloths on, no armor on, no weapons on. If they are a good thief.

    In WoW the main occupation of a thief is to ROB, ROB, STEAL, STEAL. Constantly picking pockets all the time. And if they get caught? They have their ultimate "Vanish" move. Vanish in a cloud of smoke. By level 20 you start seeing positive results from Thievery. By level 30 is when a thief becomes decent. By level 50 they become a master thief due to the fact by then they can use almost any skill on the Thief Skill Tree.
    It's easier to level from 1-10 in 1-2 hours from pure fighting. Then level 10 to 20 from questing and fighting.

    And if a player wants to use their thief for other things, yes they can also - like fighting, using crossbows, throwing daggers, etc....

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by xplororor


    If the Thief class is what you most desire, you desperatly NEED to play WoW.

    WoW easily has the best ever thief class out of any mmorpg.
    In WoW the main occupation of a thief is to ROB, ROB, STEAL, STEAL.
    And if a player wants to use their thief for other things, yes they can also - like fighting, using crossbows, throwing daggers, etc....

    I will reply to each sentence quoted above, in order.

     

    Surely, you jest.

    Surely, you jest.

    Surely, you jest.

    For realz?

     

    Thank you for your time.

  • DristolDristol Santa Barbara, CAPosts: 59Member

    You may find this thread to appeal to what you're looking for in a discussion.

    http://vnboards.ign.com/mmorpg_concepts_and_design_discussion_forum/b22584/105646054/p1/?42

  • wikiewikie LondonPosts: 209Member

    thief classes in MMO's are the ones who deal critical damage and as usual have steal skill.. sometimes they have a high percentage in forging items like merchants..

2
Sign In or Register to comment.