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Thief-classes in MMOs

fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

Are there any MMOs around that treat thieves like they are actually thieves?

 

In my experience, every single MMO out there treats the "thief" class(es) as a lightly armored fighter who usually inflicts extra damage against an opponent when he is attacking from behind. Sometimes these so-called thieves also know how to use poison, have some skill with throwing daggers or shooting bows/crossbows, can pick pockets (for very small change). But, basically, they are not a true thief class... they are just, like I said, a variation of a fighter.

 

Even in DDO, a game that you'd THINK would make a thief what it should be, the thief is less of a thief than he is a lightly armored fighter, who sacrifices some versatility the fighter has for being able to disarm traps and sneak around. Woohoo. Sneaking is so much fun, especially when there is virtually no reason to do any sneaking!

 

 

THIS is what I think of when I hear thief, rogue, or any similar thing: a skill-oriented character, who often relies upon luck as much as anything else, who does not fight unless absolutely forced to because he pretty much sucks at it, but who doesn't need to fight, because he has the skills necessary to avoid it and to reach his true objective... whatever it is he's going to steal.

Thieves, in my mind, scale walls in the rich part of town, quietly navigate a courtyard and stick to the shadows to avoid the notice of guards, scale the side of the building to gain access to an open, second-story window, etc. They then navigate the interior of a lavish mansion, obviously in search of valubles. Maybe they find a safe behind a painting and disarm a trap on the safe before skillfully cracking the safe. Of course, they're remaining quiet the whole time so as not to wake the master of the house, asleep with his wife in bed 10 feet away. And, of course, they are clever enough to realize that those steps coming down the hallway mean they'd better cover that safe back up and hide somewhere quick before the guard sticks his head in to check on his employer's safety.

Then, when the thief does crack the safe, he doesn't grab the +5 vorpal longsword of fiery wrath and the studded leather armor of +10 str and con... he grabs the jewels, the banknotes, the deeds, the secret documents that he could later use to blackmail this rich dude... maybe he leaves a calling card for style points. And then he sneaks out as carefully as he snuck in.

If he DOES get spotted, he probably doesn't fight first... he runs, or hides, or whatever. If he does have to fight, he relies, again, on skill. He dodges, moves constantly, attacks when it is safe to do so. He doesn't stand there taking hits while trying to cut the guard's throat... he's a thief, not a berserker.

 

But you get the picture. I would pay good money to play an MMO where thieves are THIEVES, or that is focused on thieves and their variations (brigands, burglars, pickpockets, spies, even the ever-popular assassin). There's a lot of potential here.

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Comments

  • VincenzVincenz Columbus, OHPosts: 1,498Member

    Originally posted by fischsemmel



    Even in DDO, a game that you'd THINK would make a thief what it should be, the thief is less of a thief than he is a lightly armored fighter, who sacrifices some versatility the fighter has for being able to disarm traps and sneak around. Woohoo. Sneaking is so much fun, especially when there is virtually no reason to do any sneaking!


    "Thief" in D&D isn't remotely what it was in the AD&D days.  BTW, if you don't think there's any point in sneaking in DDO, you're clearly not a very good rogue.  You also don't understand things like reflex saves, uncanny dodge, improved evasion, let alone UMD...which is huge.  A good rogue in DDO can solo by sneaking past huge portions of combat, can scout ahead for a party...and with UMD can do anything up to and including raising the dead for party members.  They also can use sneak attack to out damage almost any other class in the game if they know how to manage aggro.

     

    Unfortunately, a lot of people have no idea how to play a rogue well in DDO.

  • CleffyIICleffyII The Moon, CAPosts: 3,440Member

    I would pay for that too, too bad it hasn't happened yet.

    image

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,965Member Uncommon

    Are you talking about a Thief or a Rogue, Rogue's use stealth and yes backstab, and dps more if they are wise with there stealth. Rogues also have sub features such as lock pic, poisons, they can even do intel in rooms and Thief ablities such as pic pocket.

    Most games there called Rogues and can do some thief abilities, WOW , D&D. They do what they say in fact WoW can pic pocket npc's and players, what else would you like them to do.

    I love Rogues !!

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,058Member Uncommon

    Only MMO that have the true Thief class is Shadowbane

    But for the same reason thieves there are hated by everyone. It is hard gaining trust , even joining guilds.

    But hell is it fun :)

     

    image

  • paulscottpaulscott WI rapids, WIPosts: 5,613Member

    as if sneak was overpowered enough

    I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.

  • VincenzVincenz Columbus, OHPosts: 1,498Member

    LOL...yeah, if you have any questions about the value of stealth in DDO..when properly used, that is...

     

    Watch This

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

     

    Originally posted by Vincenz


     
     
    "Thief" in D&D isn't remotely what it was in the AD&D days.  BTW, if you don't think there's any point in sneaking in DDO, you're clearly not a very good rogue.  You also don't understand things like reflex saves, uncanny dodge, improved evasion, let alone UMD...which is huge.  A good rogue in DDO can solo by sneaking past huge portions of combat, can scout ahead for a party...and with UMD can do anything up to and including raising the dead for party members.  They also can use sneak attack to out damage almost any other class in the game if they know how to manage aggro.
     
    Unfortunately, a lot of people have no idea how to play a rogue well in DDO.



    It may not be what it was back in the day, but I'll go ahead and say it pretty much still is. The game has changed, but the players haven't. You can still do what I described above in D&D (with any class, really... though thief/rogue types are better at it), thoug in no MMO is such a thing possible.

     

     

    I didn't say I had played DDO very much, I don't believe. And, this thread is not about DDO except for the single point that DDO rogues are not true "thieves", so please don't get all up on my case for not being a pwnzor leet DDO rogue. In my experience with the game, a rogue is far from the thief that I am imagining. Stealth in DDO is not used to be a thief, it's used to be a spelunker and a scout and perhaps to allow for sneak attacks... not quite the way a "thief" would make use of stealth.

     

    I fail to see the relevance of the D&D rogue abilities you mentioned, especially use magical device. What, exactly, does that have to do with my post asking about whether there are any REAL "thief" classes in MMOs today?

  • bleyzwunbleyzwun West Orange, NJPosts: 1,100Member Common
    Originally posted by fischsemmel



    who does not fight unless absolutely forced to because he pretty much sucks at it, but who doesn't need to fight, because he has the skills necessary to avoid it and to reach his true objective... whatever it is he's going to steal.

    I dunno about that part...  I would agree that thieves avoid fighting, but I'm sure there are many thieves that know how to fight.

  • VincenzVincenz Columbus, OHPosts: 1,498Member

     

    Originally posted by fischsemmel
    I fail to see the relevance of the D&D rogue abilities you mentioned, especially use magical device. What, exactly, does that have to do with my post asking about whether there are any REAL "thief" classes in MMOs today?
     

    The point was, rogues in D&D...not just DDO...aren't what you have in mind for the most part.  Rogues are about versatility, the ability to do many things as a skill based character.  I do understand what you want a thief to be, but I don't think it's realistic outside of either an entirely thief based MMO or a SP game.

     

     

    That said, if they ever based an MMO on the Thief IP, I'd play it.

     

    p.s. As the post above just stated, one of your points was that a thief should be able to avoid combat to steal whatever he plans on stealing...I think if you watch the Youtube video I posted, you'll see rogues in DDO doing exactly that.

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by paulscott


    as if sneak was overpowered enough

    Thousands of posts. I would have thought you'd know how to contribute to a thread by now.

     

    Sneak being "overpowered" has absolutely nothing to do with a game where rogue/thief types actually do some thieving. It is ESPECIALLY irrelevant in a game where the focus is on thieves and thieving. Bringing up how allegedly overpowered stealth is, in a game that is all about thieving, would be like bringing up how "overpowered" doing DPS is in a game like WoW... completely stupid.

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by page


    Are you talking about a Thief or a Rogue, Rogue's use stealth and yes backstab, and dps more if they are wise with there stealth. Rogues also have sub features such as lock pic, poisons, they can even do intel in rooms and Thief ablities such as pic pocket.
    Most games there called Rogues and can do some thief abilities, WOW , D&D. They do what they say in fact WoW can pic pocket npc's and players, what else would you like them to do.
    I love Rogues !!

    Thief/rogue, whatever you want to call them. I know what they are in typical MMOs, but that is not what I consider to be a real thief. My first post went into this in some detail, I felt.

     

    What else would I like a thief/rogue to do? Go (re-)read my first post...

  • WickershamWickersham Mississauga, ONPosts: 2,379Member

    How about this for a thief in MMORPGs:

    If a player quits the game or does not have enough maintenance fees put into his/her structure, then the thief should be able to break in and steal everything including the structure itself.  This would clean up the servers of those abandoned houses and give thieves something to do everyday they log in.

    The thief gets tef'd (for a few minutes) as an outlaw if spotted picking a lock and is at odds with NPC guards on a PvE server and player guards on a PvP server.  If a thief becomes too notorious then bounty hunters PvE/PvP can hunt him down.   The thief can become less notorious over time or pay a large fee to reduce their notorious level, or do a series of long drawn out thief quest (Steal 20 of X for NPC Y quests as punishment).

    If caught the thief goes to jail (a jail themed dungeon) and must serve out his penalty time, break out, or have friends raid the jail and set him free.

    Would you play this game?

     

     

    "The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Ok, I watched the video and that is more like what I think of whe I hear the word thief, or rogue, than what the class typically is in most MMOs today.

     

    But, given that, does DDO really cater to that style of play? Are you rewarded equally at the end of a mission if you stealth through and swipe some loot, but leave boxes unbroken and NPCs unslain? And, even if you are, is there a significant portion of the game that makes this kind of play worthwhile?

     

    And bah, humbug on you for being able to sneak around 2 feet from NPCs with a shield strapped to one arm and a fiery, flowing sword wielded in your right hand. Stealthy, indeed :)  

  • TesinatoTesinato Berlin, NJPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    I don't think there are any games that actually play out like that.  It is sad, but it may be too complex to program into a game, or it may make it unbalanced, as a thief would have access to a ton of things no one else would have access too.  Granted, in WoW for instance, only rogues can unlock chests, which makes them special in that, but I can understand what you want.  I honestly would love to play a game like that too.

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by Wickersham


    How about this for a thief in MMORPGs:
    If a player quits the game or does not have enough maintenance fees put into his/her structure, then the thief should be able to break in and steal everything including the structure itself.  This would clean up the servers of those abandoned houses and give thieves something to do everyday they log in.
    The thief gets tef'd (for a few minutes) as an outlaw if spotted picking a lock and is at odds with NPC guards on a PvE server and player guards on a PvP server.  If a thief becomes too notorious then bounty hunters PvE/PvP can hunt him down.   The thief can become less notorious over time or pay a large fee to reduce their notorious level, or do a series of long drawn out thief quest (Steal 20 of X for NPC Y quests as punishment).
    If caught the thief goes to jail (a jail themed dungeon) and must serve out his penalty time, break out, or have friends raid the jail and set him free.
    Would you play this game?
     
     
    A game flushed out with the same sort of ideas as you've outline here twould be sensational.

     

    These are the kinds of things I think of when I am talking to myself, saying "Gee, I wish there was a thief-y MMO out there." and then I go off and think of all the great things that should be possible in that game.

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

     

    Originally posted by Shadowlord10


    I don't think there are any games that actually play out like that.  It is sad, but it may be too complex to program into a game, or it may make it unbalanced, as a thief would have access to a ton of things no one else would have access too.  Granted, in WoW for instance, only rogues can unlock chests, which makes them special in that, but I can understand what you want.  I honestly would love to play a game like that too.

     

    I can certainly see how it would be an issue to allow a thief class this kind of power in an MMO like, say, EQ2 or WoW. But at the same time, there are plenty of creative ways to deal with that. Simply, just increase the risks involved with thieving to mitigate the net rewards of the activity, with in-game measures.

     

    NPC detectives or bounty hunters come after you, players can use divination or NPCs who can use divination to find out who robbed them, there are ways to be granted permission to have your way with a thief after you obtain a bit of evidence against him, etc.

     

    Of course, in a game focused on thief-types and thieving, subtrefuge, assassination, etc, it wouldn't be so much of a problem as in a typical MMO. Everyone expects it and even wants it.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by fischsemmel


     
    Originally posted by Shadowlord10


    I don't think there are any games that actually play out like that.  It is sad, but it may be too complex to program into a game, or it may make it unbalanced, as a thief would have access to a ton of things no one else would have access too.  Granted, in WoW for instance, only rogues can unlock chests, which makes them special in that, but I can understand what you want.  I honestly would love to play a game like that too.

     

    I can certainly see how it would be an issue to allow a thief class this kind of power in an MMO like, say, EQ2 or WoW. But at the same time, there are plenty of creative ways to deal with that. Simply, just increase the risks involved with thieving to mitigate the net rewards of the activity, with in-game measures.

     

    NPC detectives or bounty hunters come after you, players can use divination or NPCs who can use divination to find out who robbed them, there are ways to be granted permission to have your way with a thief after you obtain a bit of evidence against him, etc.

     

    Of course, in a game focused on thief-types and thieving, subtrefuge, assassination, etc, it wouldn't be so much of a problem as in a typical MMO. Everyone expects it and even wants it.

    I think that's the ultimate solution, design a game around something like the old Thief IP, where everyone in the game is some sort of thief, (or perhaps you could make the opposing faction the side of law and order) and then it would all work.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • EbonHawkEbonHawk Somewhere, ILPosts: 545Member

    I too love to play a Thief/Rogue type character.  And I gotta agree with most of the OP statements about this class in MMO's today.  Sometimes I basically feel like a glorified spongy warrior who can only make his kills from behind.  Unless there is a trap to disarm or lock that needs picking we are all but forgotten from an MMO grouping standpoint.

    I wish there was more of an emphasis placed on this class in MMO's  You know, like specific quests that highlight the Thief/Rogue skills....  i.e. sneak into the Temple of the High Priest to steal that one artifact that our group needs to get into the dungeon.  Or assassinate said High Priest without alerting others.  Or sneak into the Duke's mansion and steal "x" amount of g.p.'s worth of valuables without any bloodshed in order to get that awesome "Dagger of Death".

    There are a couple older fps type of games out that I highly recommend the OP get if  he hasn't already, that really makes one feel like how a Thief character should be played.  I believe the first of the series was called simply "Thief: The Dark Project" and the second was "Thief: Deadly Shadows".  I wish MMO designers would take a look at these games and try and incorporate the feel of them into their Thief/Rogue archetypes.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents.

  • VincenzVincenz Columbus, OHPosts: 1,498Member

    Originally posted by fischsemmel



    But, given that, does DDO really cater to that style of play? Are you rewarded equally at the end of a mission if you stealth through and swipe some loot, but leave boxes unbroken and NPCs unslain? And, even if you are, is there a significant portion of the game that makes this kind of play worthwhile?
     


    Absolutely!  In fact, if you complete the quest (still the requirement for exp in any case) you are given BONUS experience for killing no or few monsters.  You're also given bonus exp for spotting secret doors and disabling traps.  That's all in addition to the same base exp you'd get for completing it in any fashion.

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    I notice we keep coming back the the Thief games. I never really played them, I dabbled around with them back in the day, but something building upon that would certainly make a nice MMO in my opinion.

  • fischsemmelfischsemmel Auburn, MIPosts: 365Member

    Originally posted by Vincenz


     
     
    Absolutely!  In fact, if you complete the quest (still the requirement for exp in any case) you are given BONUS experience for killing no or few monsters.  You're also given bonus exp for spotting secret doors and disabling traps.  That's all in addition to the same base exp you'd get for completing it in any fashion.

    I owe DDO a bit of an apology then. Their rogues can be more like the thieves I imagine than I thought.

     

    When I played DDO (I never got above level 4 I think), I knew you got experience bonuses for genocides and mayhem, so I tended to ensure that everythign died and every crate was at least overturned, if not smashed to bits.

  • CoralisCoralis Ocala, FLPosts: 31Member

    Until mmorg's are written to be more like pen and paper worlds ( where you can do things like sack some rich guys house or if you are a mage go to a tower of sorcery and research a totally new spell )  instead of  shallow hack and slash shadows of such worlds we are going to be left wanting. 

  • ZtyXZtyX BjerringbroPosts: 371Member Uncommon

    Fischsemmel.. We share a lot of the same wishes. What a coincidence. You should come to http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=2675

    An mmo in developmen and read that thread I made. It is about thieving. You will enjoy reading it and you will really feel like it is possible for thieving to be in a game meaningfully. Maybe you can come with more ideas. I haven't touched structure stealing and such very much.. Anyways, just thought I would tell you that you are not the only person out there who wants to steal.

     

    Also.. Something which woke me up. What is this about Shadowbane. can you really be a real thief in that game? And about DDO... Bah. Humbug.

  • CzzarreCzzarre Cleveland, OHPosts: 3,742Member

    I feel the one thing about thief class is that they are rarely allowed to actually steal. When they do, they get like 2 copper and stackable pocket lint ...worthless. I understand the balance and economy implications is actually having A class able to steal for a living ..but still its just a shame. Little wonder that Thief is no longer used in MMOs and have largly been replaced by the "rogue' designation

     

    Torrential

  • PraetorianiPraetoriani AmsterdamPosts: 1,147Member

    Thieves in ye olde Ultima Online used to be amazing.

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