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The real history of PlaneShift development and its "business" model

13

Comments

  • SkjaldSkjald OlsztynPosts: 5Member


    Originally posted by UtMoon
    Not bad for a single server start-up project built by people in their spare time over the last three years.

    But I've been playing it for over four years :o
  • maveric007maveric007 Crofton, MDPosts: 160Member Uncommon

    Editing wikipedia to fit your needs is about as low as you can go. I mean come on what the heck are you thinking, at least use an alias lol.

     

    And brining up that you started your own wikiproject is very weak.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

     

    Originally posted by UtMoon


    I question the motives of someone who seems to be hiding behind an identity created just for the sole purpose of desperatly trying to cause harm to someone else and his project.

    Spoken like a true pundit! :) I don't see 3hundred's post as an attack on Talad. 3hundred simply believes that Talad is being disengenous with people. If someone said something that you thought was a lie, wouldn't you get the urge to make noise about it? (Yes, that's an attempt at humor, given that your post is an attempt at exactly that.) I actually think you and 3hundred agree more than you disagree, you just spin it differently.

      

    Originally posted by maveric007


    Editing wikipedia to fit your needs is about as low as you can go. I mean come on what the heck are you thinking, at least use an alias lol.

    In all fairness, Tuxide simply thinks he's editting the wiki entry to be his idea of "correct". But yes, it was distasteful that Tuxide's defense was to brag about being an "established editor", whatever that really means in the world of wiki. Isn't wiki supposed to be non-authoritarian?

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    I have indeed read the entire thread, though I don't have it all dedicated to memory. Gee golly, do you folks ever like to accuse me of things. :)

    If Talad is in fact being called names, you have to admit that he set himself up for it.

  • TwinchaosTwinchaos Seattle, WAPosts: 13Member

    In order to preserve/archive the relevant information in this thread, I'd like to post the excellent rebuttal made by "Bristn" against "Tuxide" on Wikipedia, just in case it isn't accessible at a later point. As per Wikipedia's policy, the Burden of Proof falls on "Tuxide" for many of the unsupported claims he makes in regards to the definition of open source games, and because he can't prove his "burden" for it to remain as the article's content, he is desperately petitioning for the article's deletion. Here is the excellent rebuttal as has been posted by "Bristn":



    Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2007_September_25#Open_source_games



    *********************QUOTE**************************



    The definition of open source has evolved to be more than just a program's source code. It is a common misconception to claim that open source refers strictly to software. It is now a set of principles and practices. See open source and open source (disambiguation) articles for more details and examples. The following is from the latter:

    Open content, another term for open source, when the distinction between source and product is less clear.



    And the following is from the article's discussion:

    There is still confusion with "open source" that newbies think it means software, which is not only what it means. We should not give a definition that only includes software and excludes all other products. That would be npov. Here is the definition by Pengo:

    denotes that a product includes permission to use its source code, design documents, or origins.
    Note that "source code" is a form of "origins," so it is redundant.



    Here is the broader npov version:

    denotes that the origins of a product are publicly accessible in part or in whole

    --- Mr. Ballard 20:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)



    If open source is the origins, then content is part of those origins and must be open, as least in "part", if not in "whole". Quake 3 Arena's content was never open, neither in part nor in whole.



    Indeed, we need an NPOV on this. Implying that "open source games" can exclusively refer to "open source code", disregarding the content is not an NPOV. Why should it suddenly be any different when applied to open source games compared to open source film, open source journalism, open source politics or open source culture? While the open source may be commonly applied to source code, such application is not exclusive, as has been proven by open source article.



    The article/definition in question is, in fact, verifiable with a reliable source. The specific example given in the article lists Quake 3 Arena, which can only be acquired via a retail(or online) purchase as a game. Therefore, as a game, Quake 3 Arena cannot be freely published and distributed as open source game due to copyrighted content. The distinction is important, since definition of a video game or computer game confirms that it requires more than just a source code or an engine to qualify for being called a game. Creating an open content to replace the proprietary one and publishing it as open source game qualifies for a distinctly new game, which can no longer be called Quake 3 Arena. Such a project has, in fact, qualified and has been published as an open source game OpenArena.



    The Open Source Definition by Open Source Initiative states the following:

    Open source doesn't just mean access to the source code.



    Moreover, the term open content has been derived from open source, as has been mentioned before. In fact, the following article at OpenContent refers to open content as open source content as an alternative and acceptable definition.



    If open source games definition simply does not exist and is unverifiable, then no game can legitimately claim to be "open source". Any game found to make such a claim would, therefore, be deliberately misleading in its description. Open source has never been about proprietary dependence or deliberate obfuscation.



    In addition, the suggestion to remove the link to The Linux Game Tome is completely baseless, since the site does not have to cover open source games exclusively to be a great example of one that does cover them extensively, especially because it clearly states the licenses involved with every game listed, so it is not misleading in any way.



    I also get a distinct impression from the nominator that his motives are less than sincere. He is making unprofessional and baseless accusations and is drawing personal conclusions without any proof whatsoever, which are completely irrelevant to this discussion in the first place. Contrary to his claims, a "competitor's PR spin" is what seems to be prevalent in his line of reasoning.



    And that is all I'm going to say for my part.



    --Bristn 18:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)



    *********************UNQUOTE************************



    "Tuxide" has, in turn, posted his weak "rebuttal" that "Bristn" has only "a few edits on Wikipedia" in attempt to discredit the response, which is completely irrelevant to the rebuttal's content or "Bristn's" personal character. Another editor's comment to "Tuxide" calls it a "Weak delete Going with WP:RUBBISH." Meaning that he sees "Tuxide's" argument as weak and rubbish. Hence, why I stated earlier that "Tuxide" cannot prove the contrary, so he is desperately petitioning for the article's deletion. If there is no article/definition of open source games that is verifiable, then no game can legitimately advertise itself an an open source game. Therefore, the statement that PlaneShift is being falsely advertised as an open source game or open source MMORPG still stands as valid.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • TwinchaosTwinchaos Seattle, WAPosts: 13Member
  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • UtMoonUtMoon Aniwa, WIPosts: 99Member

    I'll keep this short for those of you with low attention spans or ADD.

    Skald: You may have been playing for four years, but CB (Crystal Blue), the current engine, code, models, art, and much of the new content has only been out since early 2005. So, in fact, the current code has only been out for less than three years. 3hundred and Co. are taking the entire span of the 3D project, and trying to claim that this is all they have done in that time. The fact is, the first four years of the project had to be scrapped because of an engine change. They had to start over.

    So: The current game/testbed you play is only THREE years old. And, as I have said, it has come far in those three years, with minimal folks working on it. Do not try to bandy words with me.

    3hundred/Twinchaos's main and only semi-valid complaint seems to be that the code is open, but the content is not, and therefor does not fall under the popular definition of the phrase "Open source game". Congrats. You now qualify for the World Nitpicking Championship. I'll ask Talad to change the description of the game to Open Source/Closed Content MMORPG next time I talk to him.

    They/he then branch off from that to try to say how bad the game is, given that it has had seven full years to develop. Those would be opinions, not fact. The rest of the crap they spew is twisted facts and innuendo to support his/their point of view. I have detailed each of which in my previous post, if anyone had taken the time to read it all.

    As to the Wiki tangent, I would say a reasonable discussion needs to be had about it, and where PS actually belongs. But not from anyone who has personal intrest in supporting or denouncing the project. Just the facts.

    pstruth: I have issues with the project at times, yes. And I am very vocal about them. But I do not tell half truths or spin information to give myself an imaginary leg to stand on. As a person who knows the actual details of much of what 3 and twin are babbling about, I can see how dishonest they are being. If they had used more integrity in presenting their 'facts', I would likely have even agreed with what they had to say. But, as I said, this thread is a witchhunt, not a well intentioned deed.

    I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    Originally posted by UtMoon


    3hundred and Co. are taking the entire span of the 3D project, and trying to claim that this is all they have done in that time. The fact is, the first four years of the project had to be scrapped because of an engine change. They had to start over.
    I believe 3hundred simply compared a statement Talad made to the record and he found a mismatch.

     

    Originally posted by UtMoon


    3hundred/Twinchaos's main and only semi-valid complaint seems to be that the code is open, but the content is not, and therefor does not fall under the popular definition of the phrase "Open source game". Congrats. You now qualify for the World Nitpicking Championship. I'll ask Talad to change the description of the game to Open Source/Closed Content MMORPG next time I talk to him.
    From what's been posted, it seems that people have already asked him to do that. Unless you're someone mighty special, I doubt you'll change anything. Do you have some sort of special relationship with Talad? (Just curious.)

    I'm glad you see that you and 3hundred actually agree on something.

     

    Originally posted by UtMoon


    pstruth: I have issues with the project at times, yes. And I am very vocal about them. But I do not tell half truths or spin information to give myself an imaginary leg to stand on. As a person who knows the actual details of much of what 3 and twin are babbling about, I can see how dishonest they are being. If they had used more integrity in presenting their 'facts', I would likely have even agreed with what they had to say. But, as I said, this thread is a witchhunt, not a well intentioned deed.

    Given what's in front of me, I don't understand how you arrived at that understanding. Then again, you're claiming to be an individual of great influence in the Planeshift world with special insights that others here do not have. Are you at liberty to share some of those insights with the rest of us?

    As far as "witchhunts" go, this is something all sides are guilty of.

  • UtMoonUtMoon Aniwa, WIPosts: 99Member

    There is a large difference in 'simply pointing something out' and an all out attack. There is such a thing as tone of writing, and his was hostile from the very start. I admit mine was as well toward him. Not to mention that most of the facts he used were either outdated, misconstrued, or vague. Even had I known nothing about the project, I would have still seen that. If you want to prove someone else Wrong, best to not leave holes in your own arguments.

    Honestly, some folks do see me a someone mighty special. That is their opinion, not mine. But I am good at talking and listening, and seeing things from all sides. If I actually wanted Talad to change what he classifies the project as, I might have a good chance of it. No, I am not close with him, or even talk to him much. But when I do, it is in a reasonable manner...well, somewhat. I am as good as the next guy at butting heads. I said 'if' I wanted him to change it. I sometimes forget sarcasm does not come across very well in text. I would much rather have the definition of 'open source game' changed, or have a subcategory added to it to include games/programs with open source, but closed content. If you read closely, you will see that 'Open Source Game' evolved to include the content, but did not start out that way. Therefore, there are grounds for creating a sub category.

    So no, I do not agree with 3hundred at all.

    Finally, there is no flaw in my understanding. If you read my first post, you will see how each and every one of his claims were either misleading, or could be said about most other projects. What he was doing is holding up an apple to folks who have never seen an apple before, and trying to convince them that it is bad for it to be red. His claims about slow progress. True. As with countless other projects out there, including the commercial ones. Full of bugs? True. As the same is true for countless other programs at this stage. Bad content? Opinion, and therefore not valid without a counterpoint, or at least stating it as his opinion.

    I have claimed nothing of having special insights in my posts, as you somehow implied. Yes, I do have some insights into the project some here do not. But given the way 3 and twin talk, I am sure they both have some of those same insights, but chose not to include them. That would have made their posts a lot less dire in mood.

    My 'insights' are simple. I have been around the project for a few years. I talk to people. I listen to people. I have had conversations with those at the very top of the project to the very buttom. I ahve agreed with some complaints, and seen others as nothing but sillyness. I look things up that I I have questioned, and draw my conclusions from that. I never assume that what one person tells me is the entire story. If someone tells me something, I try to confirm it for myself before I pass it on. And, I never assume I am always right. My insight is nothing more than common sense, and a good ear.

    As with all good stories, 3hundred's only starts with a seed of truth. The rest is spin.

    And please, do not try to spin my own words against me again, or put words in my mouth I never wrote. I answered them kindly this time, but will start taking offence if it happens again.

    I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    I'm glad that you recognize the tone of your posts. Though this post was thankfully more civil, the one you made after it was not. (www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1637461#1637461)

    Your suggestion that the definition of 'open source game' should be changed so that Planeshift can be put in that category is not something I would have thought of. My guess is that you'll have a hard time selling it, especially since the crystal space client is open source because Talad doesn't own it and so has no legal ability to change its status.

  • TwinchaosTwinchaos Seattle, WAPosts: 13Member

    Here is more evidence from the Blender community. This time someone mistakingly (or falsely) advertised PlaneShift on BlenderArtists as "Help needed for PlaneShift (GPL MMORPG)":



    blenderartists.org:Help needed for PlaneShift (GPL MMORPG)

    Not surprising, since the game falsely advertises itself as an "open source game". After a few replies in the thread, someone has posted a strong warning to the artists:

    I would discourage ANYONE from contributing their artwork to Planeshift.



    Most people don't realize it, but planeshift has a terrible art liecense which literally enslaves your artwork. It is not free (as in free speech) like the GPL, or the MIT license, or anything... it is far worse than most proprietary licenses either. Let me make this very clear:



    Planeshift's art license is an agreement that you give exclusive rights to Planeshift. You are agreeing that you may never use the art for any purpose again.



    Don't believe me? Go here and read the license for yourself. The code might be GPL (a noble license) but the art and content license is pure tyranny. (It is even illegal in some parts of Europe.)



    The person who posted the warning has joined the BlenderArtists community in 2004 and has 721 posts (as of the time of this posting), in case someone decides to accuse him of registering just to post the warning. After the warning has been posted, the thread was immediately closed.



    Why do you think that Atomic Blue and PlaneShift team so desperately want PlaneShift to be referred to as an "open source game"? It gets you listed on many open source community sites, it's free advertising. The post on BlenderArtists is a perfect example of how misleading and false that advertising is. The whole thing stinks of dishonesty and pettiness - something that open source has never been about.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • maveric007maveric007 Crofton, MDPosts: 160Member Uncommon

    Pretty sure this thread is long from dead. Second note I have nothing to do with any other person posting in this thread. Thanks for the accusation though ;)

  • DracusDracus The Bay Area, CAPosts: 1,449Member

     

    Originally posted by Zorvan


     
    Originally posted by Dracus

    Originally posted by Talad



    2) If PlaneShift was my real life job, I would have already filed a lawsuit against you and all the insults and falsities you are saying.

    Oh grow up.

    My sentiments exactly. In the earlier part of this thread, I tried to allow some leeway to Talad and his posts, in the thought that maybe he was just having trouble adjusting to a forum. However, I now revert to my originally stated opinion. Talad should not be allowed anywhere near a forum if anyone on that "dev" team ever wants to see that game published.

    Indeed.  Though I find this entertaining at the self-inflecting damage that Talad is doing to his own title and creditability.

     

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • TaeraTaera Community Manager Austin, TXPosts: 1,078Member

    Hey guys!

    MMORPG.com encourages users to share opinions, ideas, and news on MMOs; please remember, though, that this does not entitle anyone to person attacks on players, posters, devs, etc.  If you disagree with someone's post, please make sure that you are refuting the concept of the post - not the poster him/herself.  This goes for all of you ;)

    Laura "Taera" Genender
    Community Manager
    MMORPG.com

  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

     

    Originally posted by Taera


    Hey guys!
    MMORPG.com encourages users to share opinions, ideas, and news on MMOs; please remember, though, that this does not entitle anyone to person attacks on players, posters, devs, etc.  If you disagree with someone's post, please make sure that you are refuting the concept of the post - not the poster him/herself.  This goes for all of you ;)

    This post is a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

  • TaeraTaera Community Manager Austin, TXPosts: 1,078Member

    Please, guys :) I mean it.  No insulting other people.  Talk smack on plants, computer programs, fire hydrants, but not people.

    Laura "Taera" Genender
    Community Manager
    MMORPG.com

  • DracusDracus The Bay Area, CAPosts: 1,449Member

    Some helpful links to get started to hopefully avoid this kind of situation again:

    Public Relations: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations

    Viral Marketing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_marketing

    Customer Engagement: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_engagement

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • DracusDracus The Bay Area, CAPosts: 1,449Member

    Hummm... things are still getting moderated.

    Things to remember, developers are also sales and customer representatives.  When talking/typing about the title in public, always be professional.  People do judge a title by the actions of its owners and employees.

    Perception cannot be underestimated.

     

    Before hitting the "Post Message" button, think, breath and re-read the post.  Ask, "Would my post adversely alter the perception of my title from someone who has not been reading the news?" If yes, the edit the post, if not then send.

    When personal attacks occur, either be witty and funny or just ignore it.

    Players have nothing to loose when posting.  Developers on the other hand do.  Put the title first.

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

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