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The real history of PlaneShift development and its "business" model

24

Comments

  • 3hundred3hundred Hollywood, CAPosts: 7Member

    This is a new update to my original post.



    The original link to the article of an ex-PlaneShift developer's blog is back up with a July 2007 update:



    rtfm.insomnia.org/~qg/planeshift.html

    Update July 2007: Since I wrote this 3 long years ago the Planeshift project has continued to steam along. Shortly after these events the non-profit organization Atomic Blue was formed. Planeshift contributors are required to sign a copyright assignment document and no contribution from those who haven't signed the document is accepted. This makes it absolutely clear to all contributors that they do not maintain ownership of their work. For making this clear, this is a good practice. Talad, the still leader of the project, has compared Atomic Blue to the Free Software Foundation. I want to stress that, once again, Talad is not only wrong but deliberately trying to mislead. The stated goal of the Free Software Foundation is the promotion of Free Software and the associated ideals. The stated goal of Atomic Blue is to "make good games". Assigning your copyright to the FSF is a good way to protect the freedom of the users of that software. Assigning your copyright to Atomic Blue is not. Of course, if you have no interest in Free Software or the ideals it stands for, this isn't a problem.



    It looks like "QuantumG" has become aware of the recent traffic increase to his PlaneShift article or perhaps someone has notified him by email. Either way, he makes his point clear and stands by his original statements, as well as adding a new one.



    Hopefully this encourages more people to speak out and challenge the blatant lies that the "project leader" is deliberately spreading to the public to hide the game's unethical development.



    I also stand by the statement that the "project leader" is bitter and envious of the commercial successes that other projects have experienced. He keeps stressing that his commercially failed project was "better" than any other similar project at the time. However, the results show the complete opposite.



    If anyone has any doubts about this, feel free to do your own research.

  • TwinchaosTwinchaos Seattle, WAPosts: 13Member

    Interesting update.



    Deliberately trying to mislead people seems to be the main theme of the "project leader" in his public statements. Obviously, he has no respect for the Free Software Foundation and their ideas but tries to use their name in comparison in an attempt to give himself more credibility.



    Assigning your copyright to "Atomic Blue" sounds like a trap for developers out there. It is clearly not the same deal as with the FSF.

  • maveric007maveric007 Crofton, MDPosts: 160Member Uncommon

    makes sense why they won't fully open source the game. Still under false believe that it will one day become commercial. WIth out doing the right thing and moving the project to a full open source model I don't think this game will ever move into a profitable realm.

  • TaladTalad PlaneShift Developer ItalyPosts: 80Member Uncommon

    [I deleted my previous answer..] This thread is made to discredit PlaneShift out of falsity, they don't deserve any answer. This thread contains false/misleading/offensive information. They have no respect for our work, no respect for open source and no respect for small projects.

    Come to play or enhance our game PlaneShift!
  • maveric007maveric007 Crofton, MDPosts: 160Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Talad


    What are you saying? My comparison to FSF was to say that we are a non profit organization like they are. And that's completely true. Stop saying bad things on me without a clue of what you are saying. Go to whine is another place. Your continued insinuation and falsity is just silly and pointless. Developers have the same security about their work, because the code is GPLed.
     

    Heres a question I have. If one wants to setup a full planeshift server "without the art of course", is that possible from the code you have "open sourced"

  • TaladTalad PlaneShift Developer ItalyPosts: 80Member Uncommon

    I will open a new thread on this point, because it's meaningful, and has nothing to do with this silly thread.

    Come to play or enhance our game PlaneShift!
  • TaladTalad PlaneShift Developer ItalyPosts: 80Member Uncommon

    I deleted all my previous answers in this thread. While I originally tried to answer and to give explanations, I realized that this thread is made to discredit PlaneShift out of falsity, and they don't deserve any answer. This thread contains false/misleading/offensive information. They have no respect for our work, no respect for open source and no respect for small projects.

    If you want real information, look at the informative material on our site and our forums, join the game, speak with our devs and fans.

     

    Come to play or enhance our game PlaneShift!
  • 3hundred3hundred Hollywood, CAPosts: 7Member

    The question that everyone should be asking is this - "Is this project/game open-source?"



    The "Atomic Blue" website makes a deliberately misleading statement that it is. Go to www.atomicblue.org and click on the "Atomic Blue" menu link. This is what you'll see:



    web archive backup link for www.atomicblue.org

    Atomic.Blue is a Non Profit Corporation, built by a group of game development enthusiasts, to protect and promote the free and Open Source game, PlaneShift.



    In reality, only the engine code is open-source, which is a license requirement of the free Crystal Space 3D engine that they've been using for PlaneShift development. The rest (art, music etc) falls under a proprietary PlaneShift license, which is NOT open-source. The proprietary PlaneShift license can be viewed here:



    www.planeshift.it/license.html

    Code is under GPL license, this means you can get all our source code, study it and reuse it as soon as you keep it open and give back to us your changes.



    All artwork, musics, dialogues, stories, names, 3d models, etc... are under a proprietary license. This means you cannot reuse those in any way. If you plan to create another game based on our source code, remember you will have to redo all art,music,models,stories,etc...



    You cannot host another server where PlaneShift Clients connects to, because our license on assets forbits it.



    As for the "Bad English" claims that the apologists make for the "project leader", note that the statements he makes in the video presentation are confirmed by the .PDF file he uses for it (the link to it has been posted earlier in this thread), which he had plenty of time to prepare (same goes for his forum posts).



    Also, note that "Atomic Blue" board of directors includes three people. They are "Andrew Craig", "Keith Fulton" and "Luca Pancallo". In other words, two native English speakers. This can be confirmed at www.atomicblue.org website by clicking on the "Members" menu link. Additionally, "commercial standards" translates to "commerciale standard" in Italian, so you'd have to try really hard to mess that one up. Last but not least, the "project leader" also chose to be the PR manager, which can be confirmed on this web site:



    www.planeshift.it/team.html



    Their "Public Relation Department" member requirements can be found here:



    www.planeshift.it/recruitment.html

    Will talk to press giving information about PlaneShift. Will create new opportunities for PlaneShift to be present on the major sites.

    Will provide interviews with devs, on-line events, and others to increase the popularity of PlaneShift.



    Skills:



        * Must be heavily present on-line in terms of hours/day.

        * Knowlegde of Net sites related to RPG, multiplayer, communities.

        * ICQ, IRC channels, Newsgroups.



    Insert your application here.



    Please insert this information:

    - Previous experiences on public relations (press, magazines, ...).

    - Previous experiences on RPGs. Which tabletop games you played. If you have been DM and for how much time. Which RPG computer games you played.

    - Include info on 3 sites you know where we can promote PlaneShift. 3 sites where we can find new developers for any of the departments.



    It's rather amusing that the "project leaders" are so interested in promoting PlaneShift on 3 major sites (apparently, this site is now one of them) but do not want you to participate on those sites' forums or believe anything that is posted there, as was stated by the "project leader" in his replies on this forum. Luckily, most people here have been able to call the "project leader" on his blatant PR spin and lack of professionalism.



    If at any point the posted links stop working, you can always check their archives at waybackmachine.org. It is also a good reference for comparison, in case the content of those links ever changes.

  • Marcus79Marcus79 Toronto, ONPosts: 24Member

    Hey, are you joking or what? Planeshift looks like one of the most interesting free games out there.

    Your comments are just stupid and show your ignorance of the gaming scene. Your discussion on licenses is emblematic, did you check crystal space license? it's LGPL, not GPL. And this means PlaneShift could have choosen any other license option.

    I've read the "findings" and "accuses", but all look very weak, being a series of bad mouthing made by ex-developers which have personal reasons to post such things, but this has zero impacts on the players and on the game itself.

    What are you trying to accomplish with this silly and useless thread? If you are trying to demonstrate your wit, you failed. If you tried to demonstrate the project is bad, I think none is interested in your rants, I just checked the game and looks nice.

    About yours comments on the project leader, I think you just try put his words in a bad light, and the result is very pathetic. Your "burn the heretic" approach is pointless with the evidences you show. Comparing words and concepts taken our of context is very silly.

    If you think this game is so bad, go and make one yourself, and be sure to keep me posted on the progresses, so then we will compare Planeshift with your products.

    Stop making this forum a trash, and post meaningful reviews.

    To Planeshift developers: Go on, you are doing a wonderful job!!!!!!

     

  • goofy3kgoofy3k warminsterPosts: 249Member Uncommon

    Wow, your dissing a free game? I dont understand? I didnt even know planeshift was still around. Your post was nothing more than a bunch of insults threaded neatly with good wording, but still it comes down to that simple point....you're going on about how crap this game is or whatever when its free? And the people that make it are making it for free with their own time, the same time that u spend in the toilet looking at womans lingerie magazines.

    You are pathetic, seriously..so what about whatever the past of it is, its free now, you cant insult it and expect all these things to be perfect when no one is getting money for it. Jeez this is why the world is so f***ed, idiots like you swarming around. ITS A FREE GAME DUDE, A F***ING FREE GAME.

     

    EDIT - oh yea, and we are talking about programming a game here as open source, not arts/music/texture files u idiot, what has that got to do with open source? Of course only the damn engine is open source i dont understand what you expected? What are you trying to get across here?????

    Also the developers are exactly that, DEVELOPERS, they are not PR executives or somthing, damn are you stupid or what? Most companies hire pr people, but since this game is FREE, obviously the PR isnt going to be close to the ELITENESS of what you expect. Now go pour gasoline on yourself and light up a match dude.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • 3hundred3hundred Hollywood, CAPosts: 7Member

    Here is some additional information about more misleading statements and blatant lies made by PlaneShift's "project leader" Luca "Talad" Pancallo on BlenderNation. He is apparently trying to solicit 3D art and animation help from the Blender community. This is an excerpt from his statement:



    www.blendernation.com/2007/04/05/planeshift-project-recruiting-blender-artists/

    […]PlaneShift is a Free Open Source 3D MMORPG in Development, created by a talented and dedicated team, which has a high level of professionalism within its ranks. Our target goal is to be the biggest free MMORPG available, with a growing community of developers that can expand the virtual world into experimental directions where no commercial product can dare.



    [...]A separate license for art ensures all graphical assets can be used only in PlaneShift.



    And why exactly would the artists, who aren't going to be paid for this work and may be looking for true open-source projects to contribute to, want to "ensure" such a restriction in the first place? This is a blatant PR spin in an attempt to make this sound good, as if it is for your own benefit, when clearly it is not.



    He also clearly calls the whole project as "open source" just like on Atomic Blue website, when clearly it is not. It is mostly a proprietary license with only the engine code being open. The open-source engine code does not make the whole game "open-source". The engine code is open-source because they are using a free Crystal Space 3D engine, which has a license requirement for its code to be kept open, so Atomic Blue and PlaneShift development team doesn't have a choice in the matter.



    Many comments below the announcement show that Blender artists aren't fools and see Luca's statement exactly for what it is - a blatant PR lie. Here are some examples:

    Any other work (such as 2D graphics, 3D models, music and sounds, character descriptions or fantasy world histories) will be the property of Atomic Blue once you submit it, but you will continue to have the right to display the work as part of a personal portfolio. You are not allowed to display or use the work in another game or application and you are not allowed to use derivative works owned by Atomic Blue.

     

    When will people learn that we need a free database of objects, under free licenses, such as the GPL such that game projects can pick and choose from a variety and still contribute back.



    Does each game need to create every **** object, even a phonebooth 20 times over?.



    Free software games would start popping up if we had a good library to select from and contribute to, now that we got a free game engine, such as Crystal Space.

     



    "…but you will continue to have the right to display the work as part of a personal portfolio…"

    Oh, many thanks, guys, I was afraid my contribute could be erased from my mind, like in Pay Check!

    I think that such a restrictive licence is the main reason for planeshift still being at an early developement state. When wanting others to work on a common project, you're looking for contributors, when wanting others to work on something that will be yours and yours only, then you're looking for slaves!

    No matter what are the reasons, that's what one perceives by reading their conditions… Artists are not encouraged to partecipate.



     

    Esben makes a good point in that freely available 3D resources shorten the amount of volunteers needed to reach each milestone and they help all of us as a community. Granted it may not look exactly the way you want the phone booth to be but it's easier to change 5% of a model then start from scratch. Plus reuse can test ideas before spending lots of time refining models, textures, animation, etc.

     

    By the way Planetshift managers do not return emails.

     

    I have to agree with everyone, I'd jump on board if it wasn't for that darn license. :/



    Only reason I would contribute to a free project like this is so everyone can have access and freedom to use what I produced, but with this I would have to worry about using it myself.

     

    I was about to complain about the license for all the art, but it seems like everyone else did that already. No way I'm going to just give away all the rights for my work. But if there was some kind of Open Source license for the art too…



    Overwhelming majority...



    It looks like the "project leader" eventually responded there with more disgusting PR spam, capitalizing the the word "FREE" and not even mentioning the words "OPEN SOURCE". Luckily, no one has bought that lie. Not everything "free" equals good. As has been stated before - you wouldn't eat a rotten sandwich, if it was free, would you? Didn't think so. Additionally, Luca never bothered to respond to someone's repeated questions on needing more feedback about rigging and animating models in PlaneShift.



    Would anyone like to count how many people from Blender community spoke against PlaneShift's license just on that site alone? According to the "project leader" and his fanbois, they must all be "just trying to hurt the project" or "dissing" it.



    I've only provided verifiable information. Draw your own conclusions.

  • TaladTalad PlaneShift Developer ItalyPosts: 80Member Uncommon

    3hundred, just three comments:

    1) You never met me, you never spoke to me, you never participated to PS development, you have no clue apart from what you read from the web.

    2) If PlaneShift was my real life job, I would have already filed a lawsuit against you and all the insults and falsities you are saying.

    3) When you will produce something free for the others to use, please let me know. Until that time, any argument on your side is just pathetic. We are producing a nice free game, you are just producing negative moods. We are giving our time for others to enjoy, you are just fighting windmills and trying to spit on our work.

    Do as you prefer, but your actions are disgusting and pointless, I hope you will find something better in your life than going against a free service.

     

    Come to play or enhance our game PlaneShift!
  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • DracusDracus The Bay Area, CAPosts: 1,449Member
    Originally posted by Talad



    2) If PlaneShift was my real life job, I would have already filed a lawsuit against you and all the insults and falsities you are saying.

    Oh grow up.

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • TwinchaosTwinchaos Seattle, WAPosts: 13Member

    I'd like to post an addition to 3hundred's latest post.



    What is the definition of open-source games? From this excellent article at Wiki:



    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_games



    Open source games are video games which are open-source software and use open content.



    It then proceeds to give a specific example:

    One example from 1999 is Quake 3 Arena, which was a completely proprietary game with closed source code/engine and everything in the game (graphics, sounds, music, computer models) was copyrighted by and property of the developers, id Software. In 2005, id Software released both the game and graphics engine of Quake 3 Arena under an open source license. Although the code done by the programmers was open source (a so called open source engine) the content (done by graphics artists, music composers etc.) is not, so one still must buy Quake 3 Arena to play it. The gaming community on the internet took the code and rebuilt most of the content of the original game with open content. This way, the game, renamed to OpenArena, could be published as an open source game.



    Therefore, PlaneShift "leaders" and developers have been lying to the public about PlaneShift being an "open-source game".



    I'm posting this after I saw a thread on the official PlaneShift forum that covers the same topic. Not surprisingly, the thread has now been deleted. Moreover, someone immediately went to Wikipedia and butchered ("edited") the whole article to hide the original content and to lie about the official definition of open-source games - disgusting. They tried to pass it off as "free games" or that having an "open-source engine" is enough to call it an "open-source game" (it isn't). However, when it comes to the definition of "open-source games", then "open content" is part of it. It is a widely accepted definition that has persisted for years.



    Luckily, someone has restored the original article by now. You can click on "History" tab to see what's been going on. This shows how dishonest and desperate PlaneShift team and its cultists are.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

     

     

     

    Originally posted by Twinchaos


    I'm posting this after I saw a thread on the official PlaneShift forum that covers the same topic. Not surprisingly, the thread has now been deleted. Moreover, someone immediately went to Wikipedia and butchered ("edited") the whole article to hide the original content and to lie about the official definition of open-source games - disgusting. They tried to pass it off as "free games" or that having an "open-source engine" is enough to call it an "open-source game" (it isn't). However, when it comes to the definition of "open-source games", then "open content" is part of it. It is a widely accepted definition that has persisted for years.



    Luckily, someone has restored the original article by now. You can click on "History" tab to see what's been going on. This shows how dishonest and desperate PlaneShift team and its cultists are.



    The forums get a bit ridiclous, but it's mostly the fault of the egos and personalities you find among the moderators and devs. It makes you wonder why certain individuals say that criticisms should only be posted on their official forum. 

    I don't know why Talad continues to push Planeshift's image as an open-source game.  It quite obviously isn't, and I don't understand why that's such a big deal.  The big deal is lying to people about it. Or perhaps it's just a difference of opinion? Talad told me once (actually, it might not have been him but another dev, it's been a while) that he had art and music under a closed liscense because he wanted to protect the game in the event that a developer left the team and decided to take his or her contributions with them.

     

     

    Edit:  I just looked at the wikipedia entry for Planeshift. It very strongly reads like an advertisement.

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • pstruthpstruth Santa Fe, NMPosts: 233Member

    I see no need to elaborate - there or here.

  • ZorvanZorvan nowhere, CAPosts: 8,912Member Common

    Originally posted by Dracus

    Originally posted by Talad



    2) If PlaneShift was my real life job, I would have already filed a lawsuit against you and all the insults and falsities you are saying.

    Oh grow up.

    My sentiments exactly. In the earlier part of this thread, I tried to allow some leeway to Talad and his posts, in the thought that maybe he was just having trouble adjusting to a forum. However, I now revert to my originally stated opinion. Talad should not be allowed anywhere near a forum if anyone on that "dev" team ever wants to see that game published.

    Going back through the thread, deleting your arguments, and replacing them with "this thread is bad" whines like a 6 year old throwing a tantrum?

    Showing total ignorance of even simple law. Tthere is no way in hell anyone could sue the OP or others that are here making their arguments, as from what I have seen they are all backing them up with posts from other sites including the Planeshift site that already existed and were already fully within the public view before being reprinted here.

    Talad has had this entire thread to successfully rebuke and discredit anything that was untruthful, if it is or was possible to do so. And even if there were some good counter arguments in his past posts in this thread ( which I don't believe there were ), his little re-write tantrum removed those to be replaced with the equivalent of "you're a big meanie doo-doo head" posts.

    I think there is more than enough in this thread even at this point to show there are at the least very good reasons to be wary and skeptical of this game and it's developers.

  • TwinchaosTwinchaos Seattle, WAPosts: 13Member

    Here is an interesting update on the Wikipedia situation. Apparently, after I posted a link to the Wikipedia article in this thread about the definition of Open Source Games, "Tuxide" (under the same alias as on this forum) has started a petition on Wikipedia to delete the article entirely because he can't prove the contrary:



    Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2007_September_25#Open_source_games



    Interestingly, he is also trying to remove the link to The Linux Game Tome, which is referenced in open source games and a few other articles on Wiki that have to do with open source games (such as "The List of Open Source Games"). The LGT link has recently been posted on this forum by "pstruth" with a direct link to its PlaneShift discussion, where a lot of people (some are ex-regulars from PS forums) speak out against the game, its license, its unethical development, and its egoistic and dishonest leaders/devs/gms/mods/shills and where the "project leader" basically shows his true colors.



    I have also noticed the same two people (possibly one person under different alias) edit several open source games related articles on Wiki, to change its definition, and also to remove the links to LGT. Some of the edits have been restored to the original articles but who knows for how long. All of the initial edits happened on or around September 16th - exactly when the thread discussing and citing the Wiki's articles appeared (and subsequently deleted) on the official PlaneShift forum.



    Someone has already provided an excellent rebuttal to "Tuxide's" petition. Personally, I think that "Tuxide" has shot himself in a foot because he claims that the definition of open source games is "impossible to verify", and that according to his argument the definition and the article shouldn't exist. The problem with that statement is if it happens to be true (if there is no definition of open source games), then no game can legitimately claim to be an open source game. Therefore, any claims that PlaneShift is an "open source game" or an "open source MMORPG" are illegitimate and are still a false advertising.



    Moreover, "The Linux Game Tome" does not have to cover open source games exclusively to be a great example of covering such games extensively, as has been stated in the Wiki's rebuttal.



    In the end, I don't think it really matters what remains on Wikipedia or what kind of lies and PR spam PlaneShift shills attempt to spin next because the active player numbers speak for themselves. If the game was great, it wouldn't matter what anyone said anywhere, criticism or not. No matter how many times you write "fresh" on a rotten sandwich label, no one's going to eat it.

  • Marcus79Marcus79 Toronto, ONPosts: 24Member

    What you are saying is simply ridiculous! The devs are spending their time making this game and you are trying to put it a bad light using very weak points. None of those points is comparable to the game they built. Also your personal attacks are just mean. There is nothing bad in a developer defending his own product.

    Your discussion about open source is an endless one, and has nothing to do with PlaneShift. For what I read on their web site they have stated very clearly which licenses they use and why. Also in all materials you posted, the devs are always giving proper definition of the open source and their licensing.

    I really think you failing to demonstrate any of your arguments and you are making the developers angry for no reason. I hope they will listen to all the players which enjoy the game and think PlaneShift is a nice game.

    I support this game, and after seeing your bad arguments, now I support it even more.

    Go PlaneShift team! Continue to improve the game!

  • TuxideTuxide Omaha, NEPosts: 213Member Uncommon
  • UtMoonUtMoon Aniwa, WIPosts: 99Member

     

    "After making the same original post on the official PlaneShift forum some time ago, it was almost immediately locked after a few spiteful remarks, which failed to refute any specific points in my post."



    I question the motives of someone who seems to be hiding behind an identity created just for the sole purpose of desperatly trying to cause harm to someone else and his project. What are you hiding, Mr. 3hundred? Why did you create an account on the PS forum just to post this well written , though only somewhat accurate text full of misleading 'facts'? This says it best: hydlaa.com/smf/index.php



    Point one from the original post: The original idea for the game failed. Yes. I question what your point is here. Many things have failed, and most do not come back. Planeshift is one of the later that have come back.



    Point two: "it doesn't look at all innovative".... from a review of the -old- client from 2001. The game has gone through a complete engine change since then, and has been completely rebuilt from ground up. We'll come back to that in a bit. First, I would like to ask you what MMORPG does look innovative? Well, it certainly is not the 'big' pay games, nor the add-per play. Cookie cutter games all. I would suggest you do not use that argument when it can describe just about every other game out there. Truly innovative games are few and far between. PS is not innovative in it's code or graphics, but in what it is attempting to do. It is innovative in the fact that it is ignoring or downplaying many of the facets that bring throngs of paying slash junkies to most other 'RPGs'. But, you were just looking for any random thing to try to discredit the project.



    Point three: The famous QuantomG... Actually never heard of him until I saw that blog/whatever.  You come off rather confused as to what he actually contributed. Another quandary is why he was copywriting works going into an open SOURCE (not content) project in the first place. Now, you seem to like to quote folks who are indignant and bitchy about PS, but I have yet to see one quote from anyone who is, and has been on the team for years. Although, that would stand to reason, since this thread is intended to be a witch hunt, and not an intelligent debate.



    Which brings us to your point four, being nothing more than your self-righteous opinion. You are starting to sound very much like someone I know who thought every opinion out of his mouth was da truth, and therefor everything else was a lie, or wrong.  A troll, he was, who use 'we' instead of 'I' all the time, as if pretending he was the voice of the community. Let's get to those opinions of yours.



    "The rest of PlaneShift development history is a winding down path of failure..."



    Well, you said it, so it must be true. Odd that their has been no 'failure' since the original project went bust. Setbacks, yes. Delays? Of course. Name off one game that has not had both. Well, that is not so easy, though, seeings how PS is open to public view as it is being made, and most other games are close to finished when they go into open/closed Beta. PS is bigger now than it ever was, in span and playerbase. There is no 'winding down' about it. So, start telling the truth, instead of making it up.



    "...filled with slow updates, numerous bugs..."



    And what to you expect from a project done in folk's spare time? Oh yes. If you are like the person I know, you "want it fixed, and we want it now." The more I read from you (incuding all your following posts, yes, all of them), the more I see you are a disgruntled person who did not get what he wanted, and is now grasping at straws to hurt a bunch of people. And once again, I ask you to name ONE game that was not full of bugs at PS's stage. I give you from now till forever to come up with a good answer.



    "unprofessionally designed content (quests, levels, missing character models etc)"



    Last time I checked, there are no 'professionals' working full time on the project. Some come close, robbing a great deal from their free time. Yes, free time. You know, that little tiny span of time between work and sleep you are supposed to be spending with your friends and family? Yes, the -maps- (levels are for hack-N-slashers) are messy and incomplete. Yes, the quest system is basic. And yes, some of the character models are missing and/or rough around the edges. And finally, yes, that is all being worked on, one day at a time as folks can in their FREE time. Oh yes, and let me remind you that most games are still locked up from prying eyes on locked company systems when they are at PS's stage. Or did you think games are born with complete maps, quest, and a full set of characters? Don't be naive. When a crafter is building a piano and you come in when it is half done, are you going to start bawling that it has no strings, and that all other pianos you have seen had strings? Are you going to cry because you can't drive on the bridge the fifth day of construction? Grow up, as another poster said, who I gather has done zero research into the matter himself.



    "...with quite a few developers, contributors and community figures leaving the project."



    I had to laugh when I saw this. You try to give them impression that everyone who left was leaving because they had YOUR issues. For one thing, 'quite a few devs' is as vague as it is full of crap. In the last three years, I have only known two longtime devs to have left. One had nothing to do with your 'boo hoo open source' complaint, and the other left because the -community- was (in this person's opinion) turning to crap, and it was no longer worth dealing with them (and I mean 'you' by that). It is funny how the select loud and bitchy try to set themselves up as the 'leaders' and 'voice' of the community. And then you include 'community leaders' in people who have left the project. Pardon, but we never took a vote. You were never a 'leader', and neither was anyone else. Most people did not even agree with you. The few who did do not give you the right to represent everyone. I'll reiterate something for you here. PS is a Hobby/obsession for Devs and players alike. Sometimes, life does not allow a person to have the time to continue their hobbies. Personal matters take precedence over a silly game. Some people did leave in a huff, but those were the people that everyone else, players and devs, were glad to see go. I hope the door didn't hit you too hard on the way out.



    "The proof is in the game credits, forum history and the game (or shall I say "Beta") itself."



    For one, no, you should not say Beta. A Beta is a nearly finish project that needs to be tested for final bugs (as I define it). In PS, they are still creating bugs, and will be for some time. PS is more of a feature testbed. They add a feature, you test it, you report what bugs you find. That is the way it works. It is a game in the same way two pieces of odd shaped cardboard are an entire 1000 part puzzle. Not to mention they have to cut each piece by hand. Secondly, you are using the old statistic trick of using misleading data to prove your point. People come, stay, and move on. That is life. It is not limited to PS. I could say by looking at a company's records that over 90% of their workforce left. Nice of me to leave out the fact that they have been in business for 100 years, isn't it? Vague numbers and twisted statistics are great in an argument... if the person listening is gullible or daft. I have to ask the rest of the people agreeing with the OP without doing research of their own on which of the two they would like to fall under.



    “The project leader claims inflated figures of over 400,000 registered accounts in game now. However, ask him how many of those are active and inactive, how many have been registered but never used, how many have been abandoned after a single use and how many are unique and didn't come from the same IP. Ask him if the PlaneShift account page offers an option for each user to delete their account (the answer is "No"). The real picture is much less misleading. There are only barely ~100 people active at any given time."



    Ahhhh. The wonders of twisted math. First, let me say that yes, there have been over 400,000 accounts registered. Let me also say McDonalds claims Billions served. I have yet to walk into a McD's and see over a Billion people.  And, I bet they have not even taken into account how many of those were repeat customers. And how about the one lady who sued them for spilling hot coffee (might have been another chain), did they count her as well? I got food poison twice at McD's, yet they do not let me take my number off the Billions served, plus, they count me twice in their data! Get a grip. Registered account's means registered accounts. If he said active accounts, then yes, you would have had something to whine about. As for the rest of those numbers, they are easy to get. In fact, when the 340,000 regged accounts was posted, I did exactly that.



    Total PS accounts:  340,000 or so.



    Accounts never used:  112114



    Total characters used less than an hour : 141557



    Total characters active more than ten hours:  9416



    Accounts active in the last 30 days: 14787



    Accounts created in the last 30 days: 18103



    Accounts created in the last 30 days never used: 7614



    Active accounts older than 30 days (repeat players, I like to call them):  4297



    Accounts active in the last week: 3632



    Active accounts in the last day: 1021



    Well, shoot me in the foot and call me Gimpy. Actual facts, not smoke in the wind. Not bad for a single server start-up project built by people in their spare time over the last three years. So, my little whiny friend, yes, all you had to do is ask. Not to mention I see over 200 folks on the server quite often of late. Not to say there have not been times where I will only see 90 on a low usage time. But, unlike you, I look at both the good and the bad. Learn to do so, and you will not look so stupid to folks who know both sides of the story. I happen to think fewer people means less morons and script kiddies playing.



    Now, on to your next point. The 'Myth'. I am not going to give this point a number, as I really see no point in it. You are once again tossing up some fast talker's 'truth' (read opinion) as fact. Sad, really.



    "This project is no longer "only a tech demo", it is officially called a "Beta", and if anyone tells you otherwise, point them to this presentation where the project's leader states that it is a "Beta":"



    I simply love it when folks hang their entire arguments on one single quote, over even a single word.  It makes it easier to make others see how foolish they are. For one thing, perhaps it is a 'Beta' in Talad's mind. In fact, a great many people define PS as a Beta. What exactly does that mean? Look it up. By some definitions, yes, PS is a Beta. By others, it is most certainly not. Have you the mental powers to look into Talad's head and see what definition he was going by? Myself, I do not consider it to be a full Beta, nor do most of the people working on it. But, it is Talad's project, and therefore falls under his definition.



    "Draw your own conclusions."



    Yes, I bid you good folks to do so. If you are not intelligent enough to see past the smoke and mirrors of the OP, and do some -recent- research of your own, then I do believe you are not worth talking to.



    Which brings me to Twinchaos. Consummate lackey of trickery, repeating the same things that have been said already, and another disgruntled PS reject. In his first post, he acts like this is the first time he has ever heard of the project. He won't even say 'Talad', thinking that the ignorant will assume he does not already know all about the project. Classic move. It might have even worked if he did not come right out in a later post and say, "From my personal experience, this game has...". By your wordiness and stating personal opinion as fact, I have a pretty good idea of who you are. Follow on 3hundered's coat tails, or did he ask you over here to give him support? Another tactic of trickery: The same info from two sources MUST be the truth. I almost have to wonder if the two people are one and the same. The tactic has been used before.



    I see absolutely no 'proof' at all in either of these 'concerned' folks posts that PS is failing terribly, and should not be played by anyone... ever.



    As for the continued whining about PS not being open source because the content in not open as well, this is a thin argument. You quote Wiki as if it is gospel. Someone up and decided what an open-source game was, and stuck it on the net. A second guy comes along and agrees with it. Magic thing and sparkly fairies happen, and suddenly it is fact. There is a reason Wiki is editable. If is often inaccurate, opinionated, and sometimes just wrong. Open Source Game is a relatively new term, so who is to say what the final authority is on it?



    The source is completely open. Go and DL it right now. Modify it until your heart is content. Use it elsewhere, or send it back if the team could use it. The content, meaning story, quests, art, and music are -not- source. It does not even come with the source code. PS makes and keeps its own art. It also does not use art from public archives. I really don't see what the huge problem is with that. The art and settings teams have both been growing very quickly of late. They know very well their works will belong to PS, yet still they do it. Are you accusing them of being wrong in wanting to help in a project they love working on? You're 'facts' mean nothing to them.



    The game will continue to grow in span, features, size, Devs, and Players, despite anything you may cry wolf about. It will be slow in doing so. It will be plagued with bugs. Folks will come and go. Mistakes will be made, then fixed. Tempers will flare. Whiners will whine. And in the end, you will eat crow.

    Next time you are going to make a thread like this, get your facts from both sides, then post it with integrity. And don't do it from behind a newnick mask.

    "Those who shoot from the shadows are often the ones who fear to be in the light."

    I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.

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