I have to say personally I like the thoughts you've wrote on the subjects casual gameplay, the grind, etc. MMOWTF..exactly
I've been wanting to put my 2 cents in on the subject as well. Granted this is 21'st century entertainment, and it is evolving. I've been playing for many years...suffice to say...many years..lol. Ok, I had an Atari pong when it came out and was mid teen years. moved up to Intellivision with the audio adapter for B-17 Bomber. ( bandits...6 o'clock ). Fast forward, to the time of DOS and the PC, and became quite intimate with Sierra games Kings Quest series. I don't personnally know her but know of her, and I must say Roberta Williams probably has an interesting sense of humor add to the games a phrase of " odds bodsskins". Fast forward some more to delve through various other titles like Return of the Mummy and misc other rpg's. Bare with me hear as my quick trip down short term memory lane brings me to some 8 or 10 years ago when my then 12 year old daughter came to me with a horrific story of being killed in a game she was playing by some ruthless daughter slaying PK'r. You can imagine my outrage by this. Retribution was the least of what I had in mind. Someone was going to pay dearly in an unsavory manner for even remotely suggesting my one and only beloved would suffer harm . I was instantly immersed into the wonderous, fantastic world of....Diablo. My mission was clear...I would save her at any and all costs, forsaking anything I might need to go through to learn what it would take to max level and forever in that realm be a true hero and Pallidin. I met some good friends to quickly show me the ropes. I explained I would thwart any and all comers. NO ONE would harm my child ever again. 5 YEARS later, victim of several pk's, body poppings, and countless lost duels I found true love of my first MMORPG. Diablo 2 Lord of Destruction is and always will be part of my history, indulgence in escapism, and investment of entertainment, and at 45 years of age and the current rate of what the industry is become, my most loved game of choice.
I've built up my system to handle anything avialable to date. I anticipate great things from hype, ( thanks alot marketing geniouses ) from the names and titles to come. I've ground ( grind plural ) in L2, DDO, Horizons, Oblivion, Ferentus, RYL, Last Chaos, WOW, GW, Dungeon Siege, paid useless homage to DnL and being subjected to It's bogus billings, fell into the bogus unfinished hype of Vanguard ( lvl 20 orc dreadknight ) , LOTRO ( jury still out, Turbine has progressed since DDO ) and then lastly scored a beta key to try NCSoft's Dungeon Runners...hmm wierd they jacked and plagerized my beloved Diablo in an off sort of way. Go ahead and call me the disgrundled gamer, but as I see it a day late and a dollar short of what they should've done with the potential of L2. ( long live the memory of Hellsfire alliance ) . But I digress... occasionally...
I have a career. I have alot of spare time. I also have cash to throw at 21'st century entertainment, 50" big screens are the shit. When dissatisfied or bored or a good new movie comes along, I find that entertaining as well. The similarity between movies and games is astounding, it's the way our history of entertainment is, and will be going for some time. Both have a mix of interest to the masses, but you cant alway please everyone all the time. You don't have to subject yourself to something you find objectionable. But the classics should get the respect they deserve. The patronage of the following should prove that, and it does. So my long winded point is: During the time we invest / spend for our entertainment / escapism should be reciprocated in the return for it. When I run off to ( fill in the blank, name of world you enjoy ) I DO NOT want to think of car, mortgage, utility, taxes or any other real worldly responsibility. I DO NOT want to remember I work to Iive and choose freely not to live to work! I want to escape, to be alone and conquere or siege opposing wrongdoers with an alliance. I want to be GODLY. I want to have riches beyond imagination. I want to find the mystical magical powerful sword / armor of ludicrous potential . FFS it's a fantasy, let us have it so that is should be just that. I don't know what to tell all the people that want to simulate real world hardships, grind, and mediocrity in there gaming experience...maybe try getting a job?
This is my view on it and I have friends that feel the same way. I miss EQ 1, I do not enjoy being forced to solo and quest in WoW. There is no reason to group up as it would hurt peoples experience points and the stuff is so easy solo only makes since. Grouping up on all quest is an overkill. Questing also makes it feel less like a real world with freedom. In EQ you made your own adventure. You also usaully had a party and didn't have to run all over the freaking world while questing.
You were able to relax and chat with friends and new people a like. WoW has no community because grouping only exist for instances. I hate the immature kids that roam WoW. I see why they are there as the game is easy and you do not need an attention span to play it. The levels fly by and you can solo the whole game. MMORPGs should be about coming together to accomplish things. That was the beauty of EQ. The only ones that hated EQ are the ones that are antisocial or just arrogant jerks that really couldn't handle being in a social environment. EQ was nice as it weeded out these people early on. You are a jerk equals no leveling for you. At higher levels you didn't see too many WoW children.
Quest makes the game feel to mapped out. I prefer a big world where you go out and decide what you are going to kill. I don't need npcs telling me to hunt rats. Just put loot on monsters and chances for decent items to drop off certain creatures and let people group up and decide what monsters die by there swords that day. It is freedom people. For people saying games are grind what do you want? To be max level in a week? Where is the accomplishment in that? Why buy a MMORPG that you blow through in a week? To me it sounds lazy and just like everything else now days ... everyone wants instant gratification. I am sorry the best things in life are things you work for.
A great article that acknowledges the limitations of the business design for MMORPG but also hits the nail on the head - DA GRIND can be a waste of our time on this planet. I loved Guildwars for the very reason that to max level only took a week and so gaining levels was no longer an issue. The game play (playing not grinding) and most important the pvp is 2nd to none. Voted the best game last year i see. However the article does touch on the solution. With spawning and no perma-death DA GRIND is inevitable. Bring in perma-death and leveling will not be the key issue but simply staying alive will. XP will still be important but role playing in a game where life and death is the key aim (i.e. don't die!) will alter the sense of grind - of course it should be perma death for the monsters too - but it does not take a genius to recognise that monsters are respawned but with a new skin.... In other words grinding is inevitably boring because if you die you just respawn just like the monsters/enemy. Imagine if every time you risk gaining experience you also risk losing it all. Not for the faint hearted but certainly will inject the so called GRIND with an infusion of intensity never seen before in an mmorpg. I am not here to labour the point just to say Dan has stumbled across (or deliberatly dropped a hint about) the answer. Lets hope a publisher or games company grows big enough balls to try it because in evolutionary terms it is the next step for mmorpg...gladiator style! lol
has been tryed before.. do you realise what this suppose ?
the answer have already been posted in sevarls posts above... and you point out too the MAIN reason people complain about grinding in your post (oyou reference to GW lvling).
The grind, in most of the games, is an issue BECAUSE people aim for the last lvl and dont take time to even enjoy the world between lvl 1 and whatever lvl max is. for instance take WoW ( since it kinda became the mmo "reference" ) how many people dont even know why they have to kill XX spiders.. how many people just quest-grind to get to 60 ( 70 now) withotu even bothering reading the quests ? yet the same people complain about the quest grind but they have no idea why they been asked to do so.
its jsut a matter of play style , and people whilling to rush the max lvl right ahead but yet complain because its too muhc of a grind while they didnt even bothered with what the game have to offert are jsut not playing the right game imo.
most of the mmorpg's out ther give options , you are not forced to grind.. you decide to do so.. the only one that doesnt give you much of an option that come to my mind (P2P) is lineage 2 most of others dont have that. ( i played a lot of different but not EVERYONE so might have a few more)
sorry! Are you defending Da Grind because gamers should be more imaginative when they grind? i.e. if one plays in a style that makes grinding fun it will be????It is acknowledged by most people here that Da Grind is one of the worst aspects of mmorpging and any one who says take WoW for instance is like saying well if you eat food, Macdonalds is a really good example of eating food....it is poor game design - pure and simple. WE know why - due to the limitations of the games industry and market forces. So what if WoW is popular. It does not justify grind. Macdonalds is popular but I would not take a date there unless she was retarded. (YES..i am saying playing WoW is for retards by the way! }:). Good gaming..online or other wise is about having agonistic, aleactic, ilinx and hopefully mimicry entertainment (I quote my games lecturer here!) I can't tell games designers to stop making easy money off of the 6 trillion idiots who grind to level 60 (i got to 15 before recognizing what a turd WoW is) but as a paying customer I would like the games designers to recognise that they have to stay one yard in front of the herd to keep making money - pioneers such as myself and my illustrious scriber Dan are suggesting at a higher echelon of gaming experience and remedies to the malady that is DA GRIND. N.B. I loved the guildwars journey to level 20 because there was a point to the story line....ascending among one of them and did it with about 6 characters -although the first time was the best. Sadly I spend most of my time grinding on D&D online so I am as big a bitch as any one for sucking up DA GRIND. so point taken I have stylized my play to enjoy the grind some what! But i still think perma death would take it to the next level - e.g. give more meaning to the gaining of experience points/staying alive is the chief goal and not hiting a certain level be it 20 or 70! make killing x number of monkey spiders a seriously worthy experience as your charcter's life is on the line (mimicry)
Nice way to mispell "The".....columnist.. Anways, Most games involve a grind. You either accept it or you don't. Get over it and be a man for a damn change. My god, how many columns do we need on this crap? The old days are gone.. no used complaining about it. And for your information, WoW has always been a grind. Guess the weed helps with that huh? No more comments!
I get it now! WoW is a stoners' game! cool 'cept i gave up weed 20 years ago - "the brain is a terrible thing to waste!" - who said that?
I think MMORPGs will always take time to max out your character. I really don't even like how fast you max a character out in WoW but it at least takes a little time. I really hope people on here are not calling WoW a grind because it isnt at all. If a game feels like a grind to you at any point you should quit it. I honestly would not play a game I wasn not enjoying. I myself enjoy character development which sadly many MMORPGs don't allow much of. WoW does a little with talent points which is okay. I enjoy more freedom myself.
If anyone has played Rubies of Eventide you would know they have some awesome ideas there but also some major issues. Let me just extract what they are doing right. Rubies have wonderful character development. This is because you as the player do it. They give you the points from leveling and you place them where you want. Sure you can really gimp yourself but it is all up to you. You have complete freedom. You can create a pure melee character and give him all points in magic if you wanted. Would it be a good idea? Heck no, but you can do it!
I love this freedom and I wish it would be mimicked out there in the MMORPG world. Unfortunately Rubies is also plagued with a original battle system which is horrid and limited content. For the people talking about grind, think about what a MMORPG is. The game is about interacting with people. You guys are losing yourself in trying to be the best or have the best gear, be top level the fastest. All these things is why you feel the grind. Quest and solo are removing why EQ was such a fun game. It didn't have all those quest to remove the freedom to choose what to do. The players socialized, they talked about what monsters they were going to hunt. They hunted in parties mainly and it was the most fun I have ever had in a game. Was it because of the awesome content and flashy graphics thrown at me? No. It was about the community and the fun I had playing with them. The players made thier own content and it was better than anything WoW could offer. WoW feels like they are leading you through a stale static game. EQ felt like a breathing living world where you could do anything.
I say less content and more socializing. Throw us a world out there with creatures and secrets, let us find them not some quest giver. Make each class have seperate skills that complete a party to kill monsters. It requires coming together to take down the baddies. People are missing what made this genre.
Blaam you have a good point but Guild Wars absolutely does not have grind. You must not have played it. You can create a max level character from the start and jump right into pvp! Please, please play Guild Wars people before you try to diss it lol If you choose to go PvE route you can stick to the main RPG storyline complete with cutscenes. You hit level 20 automatically upon completion. No grind whatsoever. I know, I did it with 3 toons.
i actually did played during beta.. didnt like it.. bought nightfall and had lot of fun with my heros.. so i bought the 2 first addon and did all campains
i was jsut pointing at what was said about getting to lvl 20 in a week and have fun, too me it reflects well what happen in mmorpg's in general i means rush themax lvl like if only the high lvl content was worth it and THATs what takes away lot of fun un a MMORPG imo
ps : i ll jsut add that nightfall has lot of grinds farming titles is a pain and you have to od it if you whillling to lvl up some important titles that give you a huge hedge in the elite areas (spent a month grinding it off jsut to have the pleasure to be able to do it with my derviche and my heros )
my bad I just reread your post and I see what you were trying to say my bad
I think MMORPGs will always take time to max out your character. I really don't even like how fast you max a character out in WoW but it at least takes a little time. I really hope people on here are not calling WoW a grind because it isnt at all. If a game feels like a grind to you at any point you should quit it. I honestly would not play a game I wasn not enjoying. I myself enjoy character development which sadly many MMORPGs don't allow much of. WoW does a little with talent points which is okay. I enjoy more freedom myself.
If anyone has played Rubies of Eventide you would know they have some awesome ideas there but also some major issues. Let me just extract what they are doing right. Rubies have wonderful character development. This is because you as the player do it. They give you the points from leveling and you place them where you want. Sure you can really gimp yourself but it is all up to you. You have complete freedom. You can create a pure melee character and give him all points in magic if you wanted. Would it be a good idea? Heck no, but you can do it!
I love this freedom and I wish it would be mimicked out there in the MMORPG world. Unfortunately Rubies is also plagued with a original battle system which is horrid and limited content. For the people talking about grind, think about what a MMORPG is. The game is about interacting with people. You guys are losing yourself in trying to be the best or have the best gear, be top level the fastest. All these things is why you feel the grind. Quest and solo are removing why EQ was such a fun game. It didn't have all those quest to remove the freedom to choose what to do. The players socialized, they talked about what monsters they were going to hunt. They hunted in parties mainly and it was the most fun I have ever had in a game. Was it because of the awesome content and flashy graphics thrown at me? No. It was about the community and the fun I had playing with them. The players made thier own content and it was better than anything WoW could offer. WoW feels like they are leading you through a stale static game. EQ felt like a breathing living world where you could do anything.
I say less content and more socializing. Throw us a world out there with creatures and secrets, let us find them not some quest giver. Make each class have seperate skills that complete a party to kill monsters. It requires coming together to take down the baddies. People are missing what made this genre.
They have already made it. It is called Dungeons and Dragons Stormreach online. Still as it has been mentioned in this thread it is not currently an option to avoid DA GRIND - except in certain experimental games like Real Life and possibly skills based games like Project Entropia (you can actually travel to a nightclub on a satalite planet and dance to real djs (who own the satalite planet and charge you accordingly but it is possible to play the game with no attempt at enhancing character skills=no grind just pure pleasure). EQ is on a par with the monstrosity that is WoW...solo grind fest brought to us by Gary Gygax and the Asians! I only say this because I don't need/want/like to work and grinding is an experience closely related to that other human pastime called "a job". These are my personal opinions and I actually don't really mind if people want to play grindy games that mimic their grindy jobs - although I thought EQ was an online game for housewives and kids with ASBOs?
Someone above posted that a "grind" in any game can be defined as being forced to repeat the same activity over and over again when it is no longer fun to advance at some goal. I think that's a pretty good definition.
"Fun" is pretty subjective, but whenever I get to the point in a game where I don't se any way to advance besides doing activities that I consider to be a "grind" I put it down, MMO or offline RPG. If you aren't having fun in any game, or any hobby for that matter, it's time to move one.
And I don't know how the hell some posters got the idea that if you don't like "grinding" you secretly want an offline RPG, but that's completely bogus. First of all tons of offline RPGs have "grinds" that I've never been able to get past. Dragon Quest is a perfect example. Never made it more than a third of the way into any of them. Having 90% of your playtime consist of mindlessly killing over and over again for no other reason than to see some skills improve or a level bar move a bit is an archaic and lazy design convention. It shouldn't be tolerated in any game, online or off imo.
Quests tend to make the grind a lot more palatable to me. A deep engaging plot even more so, but that may be a standard MMOs may never be able to reach (although many games have chains of quests that together do tell an interesting story). You can argue that questing (or fighting your way to the bottom of a puzzle filled dungeon to get your next cut scene, for that matter) is merely a candy coated grind (a turd with wax on it, in the words of the OP). But I am pretty damn sure that it takes a hell of a lot more skill and planning to fill a game with quests than it does to fill a empty field with monsters and say "here you go, kill these guys until your butch enough to take down those slightly stronger guys over there."
There are other ways of making the grind more entertaining. For example, leveling via PvP. I have leveled toons entirely via PvP before, and it's a very nice change of pace. There are also some games that give you alternate advancement routes. For example leveling purely as a crafter in EQ II. I'd love to see developers do better than this, but so far it seems like quests, PvP, and alternate adavancement routes are about as good as it gets.
Conversly, For everyone that thinks "being forced to grind" = totally sweet MMORPG....there's this free MMOPRG called MANGband.
There is literally nothing to do in the game but kill stuff, get loot, and chat. You'd probably really like it. It also has all ASCII graphics, so you can also get a big hardon about detailed graphics being a crutch for those that lack imagination. As for me, I'll do the best I can with my current "waxed turd" of choice, and hope that something better comes along eventually.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
The problem I see is that the MMO's forget why we are playing online. Interaction with other players is the key.
People are willing to spend insane amounts of time and energy in these games because the pay-off is bigger. All the other players can see the results, and benefit from them or even die by them. Hardcore and PVP players are the extreme proof of that. But casual players like me start asking questions after a while. Why am I spending so much time on this? What's the point? What am I getting out of this? The fun factor starts slipping away. Being online with people around the world to kill rats for X hours a week gets old.
The game that has the right mix of leveling mobs, content, sandbox activities, immersive story, and social elements will be the next gen MMO A game we can "play" and not "try to level".
I'm keeping my eye on "Fallen Earth".
And Yeebo, great post! Also love your Turtletamer Avatar, I'm currently an Accordian Thief.
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination!
The problem I see is that the MMO's forget why we are playing online. Interaction with other players is the key. People are willing to spend insane amounts of time and energy in these games because the pay-off is bigger. All the other players can see the results, and benefit from them or even die by them. Hardcore and PVP players are the extreme proof of that. But casual players like me start asking questions after a while. Why am I spending so much time on this? What's the point? What am I getting out of this? The fun factor starts slipping away. Being online with people around the world to kill rats for X hours a week gets old. The game that has the right mix of leveling mobs, content, sandbox activities, immersive story, and social elements will be the next gen MMO A game we can "play" and not "try to level". I'm keeping my eye on "Fallen Earth".
I think you bring up a lot of good points. I would say even the hardcore pvpers feel that way. I love to play pvp games, but I also like to have a good story in the games that I play. It doesn't have to be a story in the traditional sense though. Think of it as a reason for the existence of my character. Ultimately the thing that many people try to find is a purpose for their own existence. In real life it is not so easy to figure out what that is, if there even is such a thing. In a virtual world it should be very easy, and one of the key elements of any mmorpg. Every player's character must have purpose. Otherwise people will leave the game. I think social aspects can help create a purpose to play the game, but they can't be the sole purpose, as many mmorpgs have tried to make them, and are failing miserably with such a shallow reason for the characters to exist. It must be something that is truly compelling, at least in the game world. Of course when all else fails simply making the game really fun to play is usually enough to keep people playing for a while.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
I like grinding, it separates the men from the boys. Boys just lack endurance.
Either that or have jobs, girlfriend, kids, a social life, etc. Grinding is something that is currently being tolerated by the MMO public simply because the novelty factor of the MMO hasn't quite worn off yet. It's getting there though, the genre is becoming saturated and there is ALOT of garbage out there. RF Online is a key example of a publisher that just didn't give a damn. I played it for 3 months (for an essay I was doing) and though I thought playing a game as homework would be great, it was more tiring than doing the research.
I'm one of those players that hates the idea of XP in general. The whole reason XP exists in pen and paper RPGs is that there is no objective way to test a players skill. In chess, checkers, go, action games, FPSs, sports, you simply get better with time. Because pen and paper RPGs exist largely in the heads of players, that skill progression has to be emulated. There is no reason (apart from tech restrictions and now, force of habit) to include any kind of leveling system in any RPG. Live combat people. Non fetch-quests that are Zelda and puzzle like in nature, well designed dungeons that make you think. Skills that require player interaction rather than randomly generated output with a few modifiers tacked on. A REAL STORY.
Teh Grind is just about designer laziness. And I get that MMOs require alot of time, money and resources to put together and current technical limitations don't make everything listed above plausible. But at least some of it is.
Of course, players share the blame here. You're the one paying the subscription fees. Speak with your wallet. /agree I've thought for a long time now that mmorpgs should be leveless. and puzzle like quests, and stories etc. all good ideas. what i don't need is a boss that is 100 levels higher than my 10 man raid and casts ridiculous spells, and has too many hit points etc. in fact being limited as to the number of people you can bring into a dungeon is stupid.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
Mmos cost a huge amount of money to make, so there just isn't enough to go around cuts need to be made somewhere.
You can make the world smaller (but add pathing to make it seem bigging), you can limit the number of races and classes, you can have limited customization or you can use kill X mob and fed-ex quests and grinding. The point being a dev has to make cuts somewhere or they risk running out of money and releasing a half done game or selling off their game engine to bring in some cash.
Maybe in time as the idea of game modules become more popular, overhead cost will lower and the grind will fade away. Of course all games will look and play sorta the same, but you can't have everything.
Seems like most development teams don't build their own engine's anymore. There's plenty of good technology nowadays that's easy to get. And there's tons of modules too. In fact the mmorpg genre has been moduled to death. There are so many different crafting modules out there it's disgusting. I really don't think technology, at least software is limiting the genre at this point. It's really the minds of developers, and really players to some extent, because that's who the devs are as well.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
Every MMORPG needs at least a little grinding, otherwise everyone would be max level within a month, and then the game would be incredibly boring. On the other hand, certain games could use a lot less of a grind(*cough*Maplestory*cough*Conquer Online*cough). I think there should multiple options for leveling. In one game I play there are multiple options for a player to level, starting at 15, then even more options at higher levels(although most of the time there's only one really good option with the others giving a bit less exp).
I want to know why you think that everyone being the same, maxxed level, would make the game more boring, than having a few people at max level and the majority spread out along the levels. In my mind if the game is boring having everyone at lvl 100, then it is just as boring having everyone at lvl 1. That seems logical to me. The element of fun shouldn't spring forth from having a nice even spread of levels between all of the pcs on your servers. It should probably be built into the game itself. And the game shouldn't stop being fun when you reach max level. Which is why levels are useless and should be removed. Some natural time based progression should be used. I like EvE's system somewhat, but I wouldn't duplicate it.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
i was jsut pointing at what was said about getting to lvl 20 in a week and have fun, too me it reflects well what happen in mmorpg's in general i means rush themax lvl like if only the high lvl content was worth it and THATs what takes away lot of fun un a MMORPG imo
Many mmorpgs don't have anything worth taking your time on, and the more interesting things, like raiding, or the various forms of pvp can't be done until max level. Since the concept of "endgame" is such a focus for developers they tend to not do a very good job of making the experience from lvl 1 to w/e max level is very interesting or compelling. The quests are extremely shallow, they lack continuity, or something that might tie them all together. The focus tends to be on the rewards that a player can gain from the quests, such as items, money, exp, instead of focusing on how the player can affect the world in which they exist in depending on what choices he/she makes from the very beginning of his/her life.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
Just to add my 2 cents, I think that if you want to get rid of the 'grind' then you have to get rid of what drives it, namely the entire focus of the game being on acquiring successively more powerful levels, skills, or loot. Most games, no matter what other features they have, mainly have one thing to do, and that is to kill mobs or run quests to acquire the xp or loot to be able to do the same thing against nastier mobs.
We have to say goodbye to this sort of thing if we ever want to see something different. If ever there could be a game where there was no such thing as a level 60 thief, but simply a guy with some training and skills and items that are not uber in any way, who tries to steal stuff using his basic skills and items and MAINLY his ability to assess situations, find an opening, and think on his feet. But of course what would the guy be stealing? There would have to be a real economy in place based on private player property in the larger context of player controlled political factions, etc. etc. etc.
In other words, a game where the goals were set by the players, opening up countless situations and things to do OTHER than grinding against mobs for arbitrary returns of xp and loot. If such things didn't exist, there would be no grid.
Fear not those that enjoy the grind and the shiny loot. There is NO shortage of such game mechanics, so I'm not sure why you'd even waste your time in a discussion about something different.
I dont need to grind mobs/quests/reputation to be good.
Just fly around all day, pirate/pvp fun alone, go hang with my m8s on abit of hunting or mining escorting and get nice cash or equipment without feeling its like a JOB.
It still has the best economy, graphics, comunity and content of any game out there.
You want to trade or build or handle diplomatic relations or PVP or just PVE and have fun doing it.. its the game for you.
Its a game for the smart and more mature people i could say and those who HAVE the most free time wont get the best things like in most MMOs out there.
Sure alot of peeps say its a difficult game and they dont understand it. But if u have patience and give it a week then you will discover the greatest MMO out there.
Well sure if u want a BIG SWORD and endless beating on mobs this isnt the game for ya.
Although we got the HUGE ships and the BIG cannons and the biggest virtual world out there. Everything is on one server and everyone is in there. FUN.
Great article btw. and its very true that most MMOS feel like a job .. you need to play alot to be GOOD and the fun factor goes away.
EVE success is that there is no leveling. and the skills u need to train can be trained in time you dont have to be online. smartest thing i saw yet in a game.
I just have high hopes for Star Trek online. hopefully it will deliver. but if S.F. isnt your thing you'll have to wait for another game and hope it doesnt have DRAGONS in it AGAIN.
People grind missions or grind NPCs or grind PvP for isk in EVE. You may not consider those things grinding,it's all subjective. I don't consider killing NPCs constantly in a fantasy based MMOG grinding either.
Sure they do but I was saying you dont have to. You dont have to grind anything and you can still have great fun without worring you wont have enough money or great equipment. You dont have to constantly do anything in particular to be great and have the most of fun.
I couldn't agree more that MMO's are now becoming peoples second jobs. However I don't mind grinding under the right circumstances, hell I love it. Before and after the release of SI for DAoC(pre-Moderngrav) I had so much fun grinding with groups, it didn't feel like a grind mainly because there was always people around to group with and the community was amazing so I never focused on the amount of XP I was getting. There where also many places to level in DAoC, we could kills some mobs in a camp then run to a dungeon. Not to mention DAoC used a forced grouping model for there game, so grouping was the fastest way to level.
I prefer a forced group grinding system to WoW's solo/group quest system. All I ever do is focus on my exp, WoW's system is just forced grinding and feels more like grinding then DAoC did.
Everything the article covered I would have say is exactly correct. It was even very cleverly put with his 'grinding him in the forums'. Very clever...
Anyway, I hate admitting that I've accepted the grind of an unfinished game. I feel ashamed almost. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 12 times, shame on me. But I guess if these developers could at least disguise this grind in unique ways (such as questing). DISGUISE YOUR GRIND BETTER!! PLEASE!! And I believe that more and more people are starting to not play these unfinished games at their release. There are a lot of games that head for the toilet like StarWars and Matrix cause they truly are unfinished and they expect people to pay for this. I play WoW and I know there are gliches in the world but at least they are not anything extreme. I think it really only has graphical unfinished business.
But I'm getting off topic here...if there is someone out there that can create a new game style for the MMORPG then I tip my hat to thee. And count me in for your game title!
MMOg's are all about developing a character, making it stronger so that you can explore more areas and aquire more wealth in game. Unfortunately this is considered a grind because more often than not the game design is such that it is, indeed a grind.
Level games have made grinding an accepted part of gameplay. Leveled zones, where you grind out quests and critters so that you can level and proceed to the next zone to grind. Each time going back to the trainer to get your abilities, and turning in quests, to be led to your next destination by new quests and a new grind. Usually with spare critters there to kill just to make up any points you may need to get your next level in that zone.
So that's the level game, and the level games have defined the grind.
Skill progression can also be considered a grind, but not usually the same way. In fact in skill progression games you don't call it a grind, you call it training (or at least I do). Mainly because you are developing a particular skill, and not your overall level. It's fine tuning character development, or developing your character in a more realistic process.
It's not neccesary to design zones of advancement where quests and critters have an overall value designed for level progression and world exploration, but one where critters can be more widely dispersed in difficulty, and quests alone can insure content consumption by design (the trail of breadcrumbs).
In this way the "grind" is disguised as something else. Yes it is still a grind in skills, but one that has much more variety and does not seem so repetitive as in level games. If it does resemble repetition, then the developer is to blame for a lack of imagination.
In skills you choose what to grind, where to grind, and when to grind... and in having that freedom. It really does'nt seem like much of a grind at all. More like farming out your choices in loot and experience from spawns. A freedom of choices in areas to go to, and quests to pursue, that meet your specific needs in character development, or the template you have chosen to pursue. Usually many choices that offer the same experience, but with different tactics and adventure. So much less like a grind.
UO was like this, it was a skills game, and without the feeling of a grind at any point in character progression. It was a constant adventure. I think when UO became more of a grind is when too much control was given to players in skill gains with locks and arrows. Prior to that, there was more motivation to develop characters naturally.
Grinds are more associated with level games, because that is the nature of the beast. You must grind to progress. Can it be done in more creative ways? Can zones not be designated for particular character levels and offer more variety and random events? I feel they can, and feel this would remove much of the grind I associate with level progression.
I just feel level games make grinds more apparent or noticeable. Make playing more like work and less like fun. Unfortunately most designers have chosen the level formula AKA EQ/WoW, as it evolved from pen and paper. Rather than computing skill gain as per activity, it's computed mainly by a combination of skill + level, your activity is restricted by class choice and what weapons and abilities are available. Again Less freedom, or fewer options, making it more repetitive, more of a grind.
I've given up on level MMOg's I'm sick and Tired of the grind...
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game What I listen to
Grinding doesn't seem quite as bad in D&D because if you pay attention the story and world is tailored more towards you being a hero and if you have a good DM you should feel closer to your character. Each level is like a birthday and each level is remembered as something important like the Vast Infinite Dungeon of Doom where the party killed the Great Dragon of Blah blah blah. Too often, most MMORPGs fail to give "life" to their creations like a DM would for PnP D&D. I am 21st lvl in Vanguard. In those levels I enjoyed infiltrating an enemy camp and doing a test to prove my worthiness to my tribe in a dungeon that was more than just random mobs. That's less than two levels worth of quests out of 21. Everything else has been kill 20 Hobgoblins or kill 15 Ants or collect 20 Halfling hearts or just for a little variety, Take this letter/sack of potatoes to someone in the next town etc. Very little story is conveyed and even quests become so monotonous after a while that you end up grinding just so you don't have to figure out where 20 Fire Beetle testacles are.
A DM only has a voice as a tool and good ones tend to do so much more than an entire company does with visuals, sound, and technology. Quests are a viable way to hide the grind but it's pretty obvious to see the shallow kill and delivery quests as being as big of a time sink as grinding mobs. Dungeons also become a cave of ants, a castle of skeletons, a cave of rogues, a castle of rogue knights with very little lore or thought put into most of it. Most games definitely feel like the developers always bit off more than they should and sometime in beta 4 they woke up and shoved 20 more trash mobs of various levels in the game, 10 more dungeons with no lore, and 200 more quests of kill 10-20 "insert random trash mobs" here and deliver this to "point A".
By definition, my idea of a 3rd generation game is to break this pattern.
SWG was mentioned so I need to add that Pre-NGE Galaxies was kinda dependent on Grinding. It had multiple xp pools to feed the varied skill based professions. Scouting xp was different from Pistol xp, though earned simularly. Why was grinding acceptable (to a degree) in SWG? Large groups made for interesting conversations. The odds were high for it with groups up to 20 players. Most of the time, the Loot/Resources gathered had a value and there was always a chance to score something useful (i.e. Legedary Weapons). The intensity to grind was high also when xp was traded for Jedi xp during the Village Unlock period for Jedi. I found grinding most fun when there was a quest goal attached such as the Padwan or Knight Trials. The only grind in SWG that about killed me was the Crafting Grind. Grinding for (Force Sensitive) Master Crafter just about did me in. Why was this tolarble? These were forms of Achievement that were very rewarding for gameplay. This would still be true if Jedi was not a starting profession and a alpha class in the NGE.
The public has spoken, however, and Sandbox MMO gameplay do not make the big bucks. In truth, what MMO is a 2nd rate smash hit compared to WOW? Nobody else has come close to hitting those numbers. I think the question is more than what did Blizzard do right but why hasn't anyone repeated Blizzards success?
I agree that grinding is much of a solution to content when enough can't be developed. I would also say that any content in (payed for) expansions that award high xp is a built in mechanic to sell the product. There is good and bad with grinding and having alternatives to any system or sub-system can't be bad. Variety is the spice of life. Though the game has troubles, I think Vanguard did something great to add the Negoiation (Political) system in as an alternative to fighting.
You forgot to mention the jedi grind itself.. the mother of all grinds. (A finished jedi template was about 11millon xp) For me in PreCU days it was worth it even tho it was hard as hell, it was the path leading to the alpha class and most respected by my opinion. U had to stay "hidden" from NPC and Players or else ud get on the bounty hunter terminal and if killed ud loose up to a weeks worth of grinding xp. At preCU launch i lost 2 million jedi xp cuz of bug when gaining only about 500-1000xp i per kill it kinda hurt a bit.
Alas playing as Bounty Hunter myself most of the time I had it coming
A way to lessen the feel of grind I think would be to make battles more fluid like a movie battle. Right now when you fight something in a game your either fighting 1 at a time or you have an AOE move. One thing The Matrix Online tried to do is make all the moves fluid so it looks like your going from one to another in a constant fluid motion instead (they tried but it still didn't look that fluid...atleast when I played the beta). In movies and also in FPS games the fighting seems more realistic so when your playing and killing things for hours and hours it doesn't seem like a grind. With most current MMO's though you make a move and that single move you make is the same move over and over and over again. On top of that you have several of those type of moves that are the same, and on top of that there is a slight delay between moves that makes it seem less fluid. As MMO's get more mature you'll see more fluid moves and you'll also see counter moves.. Right now most MMO's you have a percentage to dodge, but you don't actually duck, dodge and you can't fight around cover. The reason I'm bringing all this is because I think in our minds when we play MMO's we want to feel like we're in a movie epic and its not quite there yet. We're still limited in moves and what we can do so as we go out and fight and kill the 100th rat it just seems like a grind. As you kill monsters of the same type they all look the same so it looks like we're killing 100 cloned rats. Plus we walk around and we see clones of ourselves (except COH and COV did an awsome job of making everyone unique looking). All these things are in our head and it seems like a grind. I think with Direct X 10 and 64 bit, and faster processors and better graphics and more people having faster broadband, we'll see a change. A lot of it has to do with technology, what can the devs do with what they have to make us have fun. Sure maybe they could do some things to make the grind seem less of a grind, but there will always be grind its just how its masked. I don't think less killing is it, we all love playing games where we can kill things, I think its options and look and feel that will take away the feel of the grind.
Comments
I have to say personally I like the thoughts you've wrote on the subjects casual gameplay, the grind, etc. MMOWTF..exactly
I've been wanting to put my 2 cents in on the subject as well. Granted this is 21'st century entertainment, and it is evolving. I've been playing for many years...suffice to say...many years..lol. Ok, I had an Atari pong when it came out and was mid teen years. moved up to Intellivision with the audio adapter for B-17 Bomber. ( bandits...6 o'clock ). Fast forward, to the time of DOS and the PC, and became quite intimate with Sierra games Kings Quest series. I don't personnally know her but know of her, and I must say Roberta Williams probably has an interesting sense of humor add to the games a phrase of " odds bodsskins". Fast forward some more to delve through various other titles like Return of the Mummy and misc other rpg's. Bare with me hear as my quick trip down short term memory lane brings me to some 8 or 10 years ago when my then 12 year old daughter came to me with a horrific story of being killed in a game she was playing by some ruthless daughter slaying PK'r. You can imagine my outrage by this. Retribution was the least of what I had in mind. Someone was going to pay dearly in an unsavory manner for even remotely suggesting my one and only beloved would suffer harm . I was instantly immersed into the wonderous, fantastic world of....Diablo. My mission was clear...I would save her at any and all costs, forsaking anything I might need to go through to learn what it would take to max level and forever in that realm be a true hero and Pallidin. I met some good friends to quickly show me the ropes. I explained I would thwart any and all comers. NO ONE would harm my child ever again. 5 YEARS later, victim of several pk's, body poppings, and countless lost duels I found true love of my first MMORPG. Diablo 2 Lord of Destruction is and always will be part of my history, indulgence in escapism, and investment of entertainment, and at 45 years of age and the current rate of what the industry is become, my most loved game of choice.
I've built up my system to handle anything avialable to date. I anticipate great things from hype, ( thanks alot marketing geniouses ) from the names and titles to come. I've ground ( grind plural ) in L2, DDO, Horizons, Oblivion, Ferentus, RYL, Last Chaos, WOW, GW, Dungeon Siege, paid useless homage to DnL and being subjected to It's bogus billings, fell into the bogus unfinished hype of Vanguard ( lvl 20 orc dreadknight ) , LOTRO ( jury still out, Turbine has progressed since DDO ) and then lastly scored a beta key to try NCSoft's Dungeon Runners...hmm wierd they jacked and plagerized my beloved Diablo in an off sort of way. Go ahead and call me the disgrundled gamer, but as I see it a day late and a dollar short of what they should've done with the potential of L2. ( long live the memory of Hellsfire alliance ) . But I digress... occasionally...
I have a career. I have alot of spare time. I also have cash to throw at 21'st century entertainment, 50" big screens are the shit. When dissatisfied or bored or a good new movie comes along, I find that entertaining as well. The similarity between movies and games is astounding, it's the way our history of entertainment is, and will be going for some time. Both have a mix of interest to the masses, but you cant alway please everyone all the time. You don't have to subject yourself to something you find objectionable. But the classics should get the respect they deserve. The patronage of the following should prove that, and it does. So my long winded point is: During the time we invest / spend for our entertainment / escapism should be reciprocated in the return for it. When I run off to ( fill in the blank, name of world you enjoy ) I DO NOT want to think of car, mortgage, utility, taxes or any other real worldly responsibility. I DO NOT want to remember I work to Iive and choose freely not to live to work! I want to escape, to be alone and conquere or siege opposing wrongdoers with an alliance. I want to be GODLY. I want to have riches beyond imagination. I want to find the mystical magical powerful sword / armor of ludicrous potential . FFS it's a fantasy, let us have it so that is should be just that. I don't know what to tell all the people that want to simulate real world hardships, grind, and mediocrity in there gaming experience...maybe try getting a job?
You were able to relax and chat with friends and new people a like. WoW has no community because grouping only exist for instances. I hate the immature kids that roam WoW. I see why they are there as the game is easy and you do not need an attention span to play it. The levels fly by and you can solo the whole game. MMORPGs should be about coming together to accomplish things. That was the beauty of EQ. The only ones that hated EQ are the ones that are antisocial or just arrogant jerks that really couldn't handle being in a social environment. EQ was nice as it weeded out these people early on. You are a jerk equals no leveling for you. At higher levels you didn't see too many WoW children.
Quest makes the game feel to mapped out. I prefer a big world where you go out and decide what you are going to kill. I don't need npcs telling me to hunt rats. Just put loot on monsters and chances for decent items to drop off certain creatures and let people group up and decide what monsters die by there swords that day. It is freedom people. For people saying games are grind what do you want? To be max level in a week? Where is the accomplishment in that? Why buy a MMORPG that you blow through in a week? To me it sounds lazy and just like everything else now days ... everyone wants instant gratification. I am sorry the best things in life are things you work for.
the answer have already been posted in sevarls posts above... and you point out too the MAIN reason people complain about grinding in your post (oyou reference to GW lvling).
The grind, in most of the games, is an issue BECAUSE people aim for the last lvl and dont take time to even enjoy the world between lvl 1 and whatever lvl max is. for instance take WoW ( since it kinda became the mmo "reference"
its jsut a matter of play style , and people whilling to rush the max lvl right ahead but yet complain because its too muhc of a grind while they didnt even bothered with what the game have to offert are jsut not playing the right game imo.
most of the mmorpg's out ther give options , you are not forced to grind.. you decide to do so.. the only one that doesnt give you much of an option that come to my mind (P2P) is lineage 2 most of others dont have that. ( i played a lot of different but not EVERYONE so might have a few more)
sorry! Are you defending Da Grind because gamers should be more imaginative when they grind? i.e. if one plays in a style that makes grinding fun it will be????It is acknowledged by most people here that Da Grind is one of the worst aspects of mmorpging and any one who says take WoW for instance is like saying well if you eat food, Macdonalds is a really good example of eating food....it is poor game design - pure and simple. WE know why - due to the limitations of the games industry and market forces. So what if WoW is popular. It does not justify grind. Macdonalds is popular but I would not take a date there unless she was retarded. (YES..i am saying playing WoW is for retards by the way! }:). Good gaming..online or other wise is about having agonistic, aleactic, ilinx and hopefully mimicry entertainment (I quote my games lecturer here!) I can't tell games designers to stop making easy money off of the 6 trillion idiots who grind to level 60 (i got to 15 before recognizing what a turd WoW is) but as a paying customer I would like the games designers to recognise that they have to stay one yard in front of the herd to keep making money - pioneers such as myself and my illustrious scriber Dan are suggesting at a higher echelon of gaming experience and remedies to the malady that is DA GRIND. N.B. I loved the guildwars journey to level 20 because there was a point to the story line....ascending among one of them and did it with about 6 characters -although the first time was the best. Sadly I spend most of my time grinding on D&D online so I am as big a bitch as any one for sucking up DA GRIND. so point taken I have stylized my play to enjoy the grind some what! But i still think perma death would take it to the next level - e.g. give more meaning to the gaining of experience points/staying alive is the chief goal and not hiting a certain level be it 20 or 70! make killing x number of monkey spiders a seriously worthy experience as your charcter's life is on the line (mimicry)
If anyone has played Rubies of Eventide you would know they have some awesome ideas there but also some major issues. Let me just extract what they are doing right. Rubies have wonderful character development. This is because you as the player do it. They give you the points from leveling and you place them where you want. Sure you can really gimp yourself but it is all up to you. You have complete freedom. You can create a pure melee character and give him all points in magic if you wanted. Would it be a good idea? Heck no, but you can do it!
I love this freedom and I wish it would be mimicked out there in the MMORPG world. Unfortunately Rubies is also plagued with a original battle system which is horrid and limited content. For the people talking about grind, think about what a MMORPG is. The game is about interacting with people. You guys are losing yourself in trying to be the best or have the best gear, be top level the fastest. All these things is why you feel the grind. Quest and solo are removing why EQ was such a fun game. It didn't have all those quest to remove the freedom to choose what to do. The players socialized, they talked about what monsters they were going to hunt. They hunted in parties mainly and it was the most fun I have ever had in a game. Was it because of the awesome content and flashy graphics thrown at me? No. It was about the community and the fun I had playing with them. The players made thier own content and it was better than anything WoW could offer. WoW feels like they are leading you through a stale static game. EQ felt like a breathing living world where you could do anything.
I say less content and more socializing. Throw us a world out there with creatures and secrets, let us find them not some quest giver. Make each class have seperate skills that complete a party to kill monsters. It requires coming together to take down the baddies. People are missing what made this genre.
i actually did
i was jsut pointing at what was said about getting to lvl 20 in a week and have fun, too me it reflects well what happen in mmorpg's in general i means rush themax lvl like if only the high lvl content was worth it and THATs what takes away lot of fun un a MMORPG imo
ps : i ll jsut add that nightfall has lot of grinds farming titles is a pain and you have to od it if you whillling to lvl up some important titles that give you a huge hedge in the elite areas (spent a month grinding it off jsut to have the pleasure to be able to do it with my derviche and my heros
)
my bad I just reread your post and I see what you were trying to say my bad"Fun" is pretty subjective, but whenever I get to the point in a game where I don't se any way to advance besides doing activities that I consider to be a "grind" I put it down, MMO or offline RPG. If you aren't having fun in any game, or any hobby for that matter, it's time to move one.
And I don't know how the hell some posters got the idea that if you don't like "grinding" you secretly want an offline RPG, but that's completely bogus. First of all tons of offline RPGs have "grinds" that I've never been able to get past. Dragon Quest is a perfect example. Never made it more than a third of the way into any of them. Having 90% of your playtime consist of mindlessly killing over and over again for no other reason than to see some skills improve or a level bar move a bit is an archaic and lazy design convention. It shouldn't be tolerated in any game, online or off imo.
Quests tend to make the grind a lot more palatable to me. A deep engaging plot even more so, but that may be a standard MMOs may never be able to reach (although many games have chains of quests that together do tell an interesting story). You can argue that questing (or fighting your way to the bottom of a puzzle filled dungeon to get your next cut scene, for that matter) is merely a candy coated grind (a turd with wax on it, in the words of the OP). But I am pretty damn sure that it takes a hell of a lot more skill and planning to fill a game with quests than it does to fill a empty field with monsters and say "here you go, kill these guys until your butch enough to take down those slightly stronger guys over there."
There are other ways of making the grind more entertaining. For example, leveling via PvP. I have leveled toons entirely via PvP before, and it's a very nice change of pace. There are also some games that give you alternate advancement routes. For example leveling purely as a crafter in EQ II. I'd love to see developers do better than this, but so far it seems like quests, PvP, and alternate adavancement routes are about as good as it gets.
Conversly, For everyone that thinks "being forced to grind" = totally sweet MMORPG....there's this free MMOPRG called MANGband.
mangband.org/
There is literally nothing to do in the game but kill stuff, get loot, and chat. You'd probably really like it. It also has all ASCII graphics, so you can also get a big hardon about detailed graphics being a crutch for those that lack imagination. As for me, I'll do the best I can with my current "waxed turd" of choice, and hope that something better comes along eventually.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
The problem I see is that the MMO's forget why we are playing online. Interaction with other players is the key.
People are willing to spend insane amounts of time and energy in these games because the pay-off is bigger. All the other players can see the results, and benefit from them or even die by them. Hardcore and PVP players are the extreme proof of that. But casual players like me start asking questions after a while. Why am I spending so much time on this? What's the point? What am I getting out of this? The fun factor starts slipping away. Being online with people around the world to kill rats for X hours a week gets old.
The game that has the right mix of leveling mobs, content, sandbox activities, immersive story, and social elements will be the next gen MMO
A game we can "play" and not "try to level".
I'm keeping my eye on "Fallen Earth".
And Yeebo, great post! Also love your Turtletamer Avatar, I'm currently an Accordian Thief.
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It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche
I'm one of those players that hates the idea of XP in general. The whole reason XP exists in pen and paper RPGs is that there is no objective way to test a players skill. In chess, checkers, go, action games, FPSs, sports, you simply get better with time. Because pen and paper RPGs exist largely in the heads of players, that skill progression has to be emulated. There is no reason (apart from tech restrictions and now, force of habit) to include any kind of leveling system in any RPG. Live combat people. Non fetch-quests that are Zelda and puzzle like in nature, well designed dungeons that make you think. Skills that require player interaction rather than randomly generated output with a few modifiers tacked on. A REAL STORY.
Teh Grind is just about designer laziness. And I get that MMOs require alot of time, money and resources to put together and current technical limitations don't make everything listed above plausible. But at least some of it is.
Of course, players share the blame here. You're the one paying the subscription fees. Speak with your wallet. /agree I've thought for a long time now that mmorpgs should be leveless. and puzzle like quests, and stories etc. all good ideas. what i don't need is a boss that is 100 levels higher than my 10 man raid and casts ridiculous spells, and has too many hit points etc. in fact being limited as to the number of people you can bring into a dungeon is stupid.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche
Many mmorpgs don't have anything worth taking your time on, and the more interesting things, like raiding, or the various forms of pvp can't be done until max level. Since the concept of "endgame" is such a focus for developers they tend to not do a very good job of making the experience from lvl 1 to w/e max level is very interesting or compelling. The quests are extremely shallow, they lack continuity, or something that might tie them all together. The focus tends to be on the rewards that a player can gain from the quests, such as items, money, exp, instead of focusing on how the player can affect the world in which they exist in depending on what choices he/she makes from the very beginning of his/her life.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche
We have to say goodbye to this sort of thing if we ever want to see something different. If ever there could be a game where there was no such thing as a level 60 thief, but simply a guy with some training and skills and items that are not uber in any way, who tries to steal stuff using his basic skills and items and MAINLY his ability to assess situations, find an opening, and think on his feet. But of course what would the guy be stealing? There would have to be a real economy in place based on private player property in the larger context of player controlled political factions, etc. etc. etc.
In other words, a game where the goals were set by the players, opening up countless situations and things to do OTHER than grinding against mobs for arbitrary returns of xp and loot. If such things didn't exist, there would be no grid.
Fear not those that enjoy the grind and the shiny loot. There is NO shortage of such game mechanics, so I'm not sure why you'd even waste your time in a discussion about something different.
IronOre - Forging the Future
Thats why i play EVE online.
I dont need to grind mobs/quests/reputation to be good.
Just fly around all day, pirate/pvp fun alone, go hang with my m8s on abit of hunting or mining escorting and get nice cash or equipment without feeling its like a JOB.
It still has the best economy, graphics, comunity and content of any game out there.
You want to trade or build or handle diplomatic relations or PVP or just PVE and have fun doing it.. its the game for you.
Its a game for the smart and more mature people i could say and those who HAVE the most free time wont get the best things like in most MMOs out there.
Sure alot of peeps say its a difficult game and they dont understand it. But if u have patience and give it a week then you will discover the greatest MMO out there.
Well sure if u want a BIG SWORD and endless beating on mobs this isnt the game for ya.
Although we got the HUGE ships and the BIG cannons
and the biggest virtual world out there. Everything is on one server and everyone is in there. FUN.
Great article btw. and its very true that most MMOS feel like a job .. you need to play alot to be GOOD and the fun factor goes away.
EVE success is that there is no leveling. and the skills u need to train can be trained in time you dont have to be online. smartest thing i saw yet in a game.
I just have high hopes for Star Trek online. hopefully it will deliver. but if S.F. isnt your thing you'll have to wait for another game and hope it doesnt have DRAGONS in it AGAIN.
I couldn't agree more that MMO's are now becoming peoples second jobs. However I don't mind grinding under the right circumstances, hell I love it. Before and after the release of SI for DAoC(pre-Moderngrav) I had so much fun grinding with groups, it didn't feel like a grind mainly because there was always people around to group with and the community was amazing so I never focused on the amount of XP I was getting. There where also many places to level in DAoC, we could kills some mobs in a camp then run to a dungeon. Not to mention DAoC used a forced grouping model for there game, so grouping was the fastest way to level.
I prefer a forced group grinding system to WoW's solo/group quest system. All I ever do is focus on my exp, WoW's system is just forced grinding and feels more like grinding then DAoC did.
Thepwnblog.com - MMORPG blog
Anyway, I hate admitting that I've accepted the grind of an unfinished game. I feel ashamed almost. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 12 times, shame on me. But I guess if these developers could at least disguise this grind in unique ways (such as questing). DISGUISE YOUR GRIND BETTER!! PLEASE!! And I believe that more and more people are starting to not play these unfinished games at their release. There are a lot of games that head for the toilet like StarWars and Matrix cause they truly are unfinished and they expect people to pay for this. I play WoW and I know there are gliches in the world but at least they are not anything extreme. I think it really only has graphical unfinished business.
But I'm getting off topic here...if there is someone out there that can create a new game style for the MMORPG then I tip my hat to thee. And count me in for your game title!
Is it a grind or not?
MMOg's are all about developing a character, making it stronger so that you can explore more areas and aquire more wealth in game. Unfortunately this is considered a grind because more often than not the game design is such that it is, indeed a grind.
Level games have made grinding an accepted part of gameplay. Leveled zones, where you grind out quests and critters so that you can level and proceed to the next zone to grind. Each time going back to the trainer to get your abilities, and turning in quests, to be led to your next destination by new quests and a new grind. Usually with spare critters there to kill just to make up any points you may need to get your next level in that zone.
So that's the level game, and the level games have defined the grind.
Skill progression can also be considered a grind, but not usually the same way. In fact in skill progression games you don't call it a grind, you call it training (or at least I do). Mainly because you are developing a particular skill, and not your overall level. It's fine tuning character development, or developing your character in a more realistic process.
It's not neccesary to design zones of advancement where quests and critters have an overall value designed for level progression and world exploration, but one where critters can be more widely dispersed in difficulty, and quests alone can insure content consumption by design (the trail of breadcrumbs).
In this way the "grind" is disguised as something else. Yes it is still a grind in skills, but one that has much more variety and does not seem so repetitive as in level games. If it does resemble repetition, then the developer is to blame for a lack of imagination.
In skills you choose what to grind, where to grind, and when to grind... and in having that freedom. It really does'nt seem like much of a grind at all. More like farming out your choices in loot and experience from spawns. A freedom of choices in areas to go to, and quests to pursue, that meet your specific needs in character development, or the template you have chosen to pursue. Usually many choices that offer the same experience, but with different tactics and adventure. So much less like a grind.
UO was like this, it was a skills game, and without the feeling of a grind at any point in character progression. It was a constant adventure. I think when UO became more of a grind is when too much control was given to players in skill gains with locks and arrows. Prior to that, there was more motivation to develop characters naturally.
Grinds are more associated with level games, because that is the nature of the beast. You must grind to progress. Can it be done in more creative ways? Can zones not be designated for particular character levels and offer more variety and random events? I feel they can, and feel this would remove much of the grind I associate with level progression.
I just feel level games make grinds more apparent or noticeable. Make playing more like work and less like fun. Unfortunately most designers have chosen the level formula AKA EQ/WoW, as it evolved from pen and paper. Rather than computing skill gain as per activity, it's computed mainly by a combination of skill + level, your activity is restricted by class choice and what weapons and abilities are available. Again Less freedom, or fewer options, making it more repetitive, more of a grind.
I've given up on level MMOg's
I'm sick and Tired of the grind...
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game
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Grinding doesn't seem quite as bad in D&D because if you pay attention the story and world is tailored more towards you being a hero and if you have a good DM you should feel closer to your character. Each level is like a birthday and each level is remembered as something important like the Vast Infinite Dungeon of Doom where the party killed the Great Dragon of Blah blah blah. Too often, most MMORPGs fail to give "life" to their creations like a DM would for PnP D&D. I am 21st lvl in Vanguard. In those levels I enjoyed infiltrating an enemy camp and doing a test to prove my worthiness to my tribe in a dungeon that was more than just random mobs. That's less than two levels worth of quests out of 21. Everything else has been kill 20 Hobgoblins or kill 15 Ants or collect 20 Halfling hearts or just for a little variety, Take this letter/sack of potatoes to someone in the next town etc. Very little story is conveyed and even quests become so monotonous after a while that you end up grinding just so you don't have to figure out where 20 Fire Beetle testacles are.
A DM only has a voice as a tool and good ones tend to do so much more than an entire company does with visuals, sound, and technology. Quests are a viable way to hide the grind but it's pretty obvious to see the shallow kill and delivery quests as being as big of a time sink as grinding mobs. Dungeons also become a cave of ants, a castle of skeletons, a cave of rogues, a castle of rogue knights with very little lore or thought put into most of it. Most games definitely feel like the developers always bit off more than they should and sometime in beta 4 they woke up and shoved 20 more trash mobs of various levels in the game, 10 more dungeons with no lore, and 200 more quests of kill 10-20 "insert random trash mobs" here and deliver this to "point A".
By definition, my idea of a 3rd generation game is to break this pattern.
You forgot to mention the jedi grind itself.. the mother of all grinds. (A finished jedi template was about 11millon xp) For me in PreCU days it was worth it even tho it was hard as hell, it was the path leading to the alpha class and most respected by my opinion. U had to stay "hidden" from NPC and Players or else ud get on the bounty hunter terminal and if killed ud loose up to a weeks worth of grinding xp. At preCU launch i lost 2 million jedi xp cuz of bug when gaining only about 500-1000xp i per kill it kinda hurt a bit.
Alas playing as Bounty Hunter myself most of the time I had it coming
Wumi - PreCU Bloodfin
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled