Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Horizons: Special Report: The EI Catastrophe

13

Comments

  • ValkanisarValkanisar HomeTown, ONPosts: 494Member

    all these problems with billing and hacked server is sickening. this bowman character was always a bit shady.
    looks like this was a quick way to gain some cash fast then worry about the chargebacks later. just this EI's actions and non-actions spell out SCAMMED. It development companies like this that make it really hard for the "little guys" to get any where in the mmorpg business.

    I mean how dumb can people be to know how to program and design the code for a billing system but not know that info is over secure lines only? Such BS if you ask me. "oops lets us bill you 3 times today cause bob forgot to buy donuts for the office."

    Luckily for me i left this game quickly after beta. it was so obvious where this was heading after release and they went bankrupt. To tell you the truth, spite all the bugs and content that was not in release there was still something about this game that i liked. though i would never give out my info to these #*@(*&(
    "thanks for using our unsecure lines, we promise it was criminals who did the hacking, not us."

    Wonder if they went and dumped all that cash into some stocks. what ever it is that was done, no matter what they say, this was all planned in advance. looks too smooth.... cough cough, ya right....
    hmm so this is where most of the guys from age of mourning went to? dave caught a break with his porn sites and decided to pull some new stunts.

    wonder how many times these type of companies can scam people with out any thing being done just cause its a video game in bankruptcy.

  • randprinrandprin kfar sabaPosts: 60Member Common

    i beta tested horizons, and like many thought it showed great promise but did not live to expectations, it's sad to see it goes but it's not such a great loss to the industry.

    i am however suprised by the turn of events as depicted in this article. if even half of the written turn of events is true i think lawsuits will be forthcoming in the future.

    oh and on a final note, lay off the EVE/GW/WoW glorifing/bashing on this thread, not only they're totally out of context here, but they also reek of fanbois worshiping their game and snubbing all the others.

    MMORPG addict since 1995.

  • Holyavenger1Holyavenger1 Montreal, QCPosts: 439Member Uncommon

    Wow, that sucks for the players. I feel bad for them :(

    I can't believe a serious company would do such a retarded thing, this is beyond stupid. What a fraking bunch of noobtards. Please, everyone reminds me to stay clear of anything bearing the name of "Tulga" or "EI".




    Fyrr Deerdan - HolyAvenger
    http://www.therepopulation.com - The Sci-Fi Sandbox.

  • jimmyman99jimmyman99 Toronto, ONPosts: 3,221Member
    I loved Horizons back in the days...good old days... im saddened to hear that it is not faring so well. Im also saddened to read about dubious business practices and farlanism of the owners. When do companies learn not to disrespect their customers? And no excuse just becuase its a low budget company! I work for a low profile telecom comany (3 people crew) and If I miss an email or a customer complaint once, I make sure i dont miss it the second time. Not all issues can be resolved in favor of my customer (as they always expect), but at least I am communicating.

    Bring down the hammer of justice on their bussiness practice!

    PS: great coverage, MMORPG! We gotta expose more companies like these to what they realy are - greedy, incompetent and lying bunch of dirty bluecollar wannabeas.



    I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
    image
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
    imageimage

  • DanaDana Halifax, NSPosts: 2,415Member
    Everyone - While your debate about EVE is a legitimate one, can you please transfer it to the EVE boards and let this thread stay on topic?


    Dana Massey
    Formerly of MMORPG.com
    Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  • UragaMicorUragaMicor VelpPosts: 1Member

    I was a betatester for this game and it ...really really sucked!! There were more then the average beta problems in this game

    Although the testers were in the beginning were very loyal the company never listended to any of the the comments they made. In the end I(and many with me) left the game.

    I'm not suprised that the game is still not working.I'm not even suprised that there are still problems that were around in beta.

     And yes Bowman screwed it up big time

  • snickelsnickel Frankfurt am MainPosts: 41Member

    The critique notwithstanding -- playing horizons even in the state the game is currently in is way better than missing out on it.

    For me and many others (those that like to craft or like to play dragons) it is still the best game on the market.

    I am sorry for everyone who is persuaded by this article and the ensuing discussion not to give it a try. Thats why I detest those people who take a delight in pronouncing it dead.


  • dand3dand3 San Rafael, CAPosts: 241Member

    There was a lot of work done in the last year or so; Dragon Lairs were added, the tutorial/beginner islands and the low level subcontinent Lesser Aradoth received  complete makeovers, and perhaps most important, the Ancient Rite of Passage was added and the whole dragon experience was improved greatly.

    Trial sub retention rates went from effectively zip to better than 50%, a remarkable figure.  The game itself (not counting the Gothic game development expenses) was just becoming profitable due to the increased subscription base.  That's what made the game salable; as soon as it hit breakeven, and could show a rising subscription base, Chris Baker's interest could be liquidated.

    The game servers still run; the improvements of the last year are still there... a new player should get 1-1 1/2 years of good content before hitting the weak endgame.

    EI really didn't know what they didn't know; and they fouled up billing, communications, and failed to even communicate with the devs Tulga fired just before the takeover. (Firing was odd, have not heard the reasons for that. )  On the other paw, EI has pledged to add new content, and to clean up underlying tech and documentation issues first.  They say, correctly that that will take quite a while... They're learning. As a very small beginning, but still a beginning, the Fall Festival from last year was just put back into the game; trick or treating, costumes, masks, etc.

    So, players are playing, and enjoying the game; it is unique in some respects. Billing seems to be working again, and early tech issues are generally improved.  I believe it still has the most mature player base (emotionally and chronologically) of any MMO; these ain't kids playing their first MMO.  It would not have lasted this long, against such odds, if there were nothing there.

  • CeloriaCeloria CasinoPosts: 8Member

    I'm just glad the write up is somewhere extremely visible and nowhere where EII can have it deleted. ;)

  • ZippyZippy NY, NYPosts: 1,412Member

    Excellent article and coverage. :)

    Horizons seemed to be building back a good base and a good reputation the last few years  It is sad to see this happen to game that arguably was the best crfating game ever made.  I neber thought I wiuld be sad to see David Bowman leave Horizons.

  • ArremusArremus PerthPosts: 656Member

    Originally posted by snickel

    The critique notwithstanding -- playing horizons even in the state the game is currently in is way better than missing out on it.

    For me and many others (those that like to craft or like to play dragons) it is still the best game on the market.

    I am sorry for everyone who is persuaded by this article and the ensuing discussion not to give it a try. Thats why I detest those people who take a delight in pronouncing it dead.

    You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".



    But seeing as we are talking about Horizons, and its selling points, I have to say that the crafting in Saga of Ryzom FAR outdoes the mass-produce slider system of Horizons.
    If anyone is thinking of trying out an MMO front a love of crafting standpoint, I would HIGHLY recommend not bothering with the Horizons nightmare and just try out the Ryzom trial.

    I played Horizons for a year or so. Hmm probably 2.5+ years since I left now, and I have only thought about going back, for a day, for ONE reason.
    To see my old friends.
    I wouldn't bother doing that now though because I know they'll all be long gone.

    People talk of the immense promise this game had, or o.O "has", when in reality, everything that's supposedly so good about it has been done 10x better in another MMO since.
    Except for Dragons...

    Well, if you want to play a bug riddled, lag riddled, mobs appearing 20m in front of you riddled game (do they still do this? image) for the sole purpose of playing a Dragon, all the power to you.

    My advice to anyone would be to stay the HELL away though.
    Great crafting + great exploring + great material gathering = Saga of Ryzom, end of story.

    Horizons has failed miserably and has far outlived its use-by date.

    image
    "(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
    Oh. My. God.

  • snickelsnickel Frankfurt am MainPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by Arremus
    Originally posted by snickel

    The critique notwithstanding -- playing horizons even in the state the game is currently in is way better than missing out on it.

    For me and many others (those that like to craft or like to play dragons) it is still the best game on the market.

    I am sorry for everyone who is persuaded by this article and the ensuing discussion not to give it a try. Thats why I detest those people who take a delight in pronouncing it dead.
    You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".

    But seeing as we are talking about Horizons, and its selling points, I have to say that the crafting in Saga of Ryzom FAR outdoes the mass-produce slider system of Horizons.
    If anyone is thinking of trying out an MMO front a love of crafting standpoint, I would HIGHLY recommend not bothering with the Horizons nightmare and just try out the Ryzom trial.

    [...]

    Well, I know Ryzom a little bit and if horizons would finally fall victim to the big bug zapper, I would definitely try to find a home in the Ryzom world. The crafting system in Ryzom is interesting and challenging.

    But I would sure miss the opportunity to learn every craft with time (and on one char), and I would very much miss the chance to own a plot and decide which structures to build there, to embellish it with decoration and even useful things like machines.
    I would miss the player events where we gather from all regions to build a mine, where dragons fly in with building units and me little gnome has the honor to apply them ... the chance to see a building pop into existence that you helped build and that is a boon to the world, like a bridge or a lighthouse...

    I would miss so much in Ryzom, even though it could be called a crafting game as well. There's simply no competition with horizons for some experiences a crafter can have.




  • KlausWKlausW Denver, COPosts: 165Member


    Originally posted by snickel

    I meant the former Tulga employees and their friends who do their very best to harm the game. I have great respect for the work they did for the game while they still were in charge, but I feel they have gone out of their way and still do so to make sure that a game that they aren't involved in any more will fail.

    I have no doubt you'd put me into that category, Snickel, but please understand: I do not under any circumstances want Horizons to fail. What I want is for EI to get its act together, start conducting business in an honest, ethical, legal manner, and invest the time and money it will take for them to be able to add new content and develop new game systems. I'd also be happy if they sold Horizons to an existing, professional development house that would be willing and able to make that investment.

    I want EI to be as committed to the success and growth of Horizons as the players are. Right now, they are not, and that's not good enough.

    Guildleader, Mithril Council, Chaos

  • snickelsnickel Frankfurt am MainPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by KlausW
    Originally posted by snickel

    I meant the former Tulga employees and their friends who do their very best to harm the game. I have great respect for the work they did for the game while they still were in charge, but I feel they have gone out of their way and still do so to make sure that a game that they aren't involved in any more will fail.

    I have no doubt you'd put me into that category, Snickel, but please understand: I do not under any circumstances want Horizons to fail. What I want is for EI to get its act together, start conducting business in an honest, ethical, legal manner, and invest the time and money it will take for them to be able to add new content and develop new game systems. I'd also be happy if they sold Horizons to an existing, professional development house that would be willing and able to make that investment.

    I want EI to be as committed to the success and growth of Horizons as the players are. Right now, they are not, and that's not good enough.


    Then we have a common goal -- horizons should become a success.

    Still I fear we are not in agreement about the means to achieve this -- some TULGA-Fans have gone so far as to advise people to cancel their accounts, as if this could result in any positive development. Maybe they think that this might be a means to convince EII to sell the game to another owner --- I think this cannot and will not work and the only result will be harm to the game due to loss of subscribers and a bleeding out of the communities.

    I think bashing the current owner of a game is not the way to achieve improvement. Like punishment will not make children better human beings, if that analogy bringt my point across.




  • Parsifal57Parsifal57 Hampton, GAPosts: 267Member

    Originally posted by snickel
    Originally posted by KlausW
    Originally posted by snickel

    I meant the former Tulga employees and their friends who do their very best to harm the game. I have great respect for the work they did for the game while they still were in charge, but I feel they have gone out of their way and still do so to make sure that a game that they aren't involved in any more will fail.

    I have no doubt you'd put me into that category, Snickel, but please understand: I do not under any circumstances want Horizons to fail. What I want is for EI to get its act together, start conducting business in an honest, ethical, legal manner, and invest the time and money it will take for them to be able to add new content and develop new game systems. I'd also be happy if they sold Horizons to an existing, professional development house that would be willing and able to make that investment.

    I want EI to be as committed to the success and growth of Horizons as the players are. Right now, they are not, and that's not good enough.


    Then we have a common goal -- horizons should become a success.

    Still I fear we are not in agreement about the means to achieve this -- some TULGA-Fans have gone so far as to advise people to cancel their accounts, as if this could result in any positive development. Maybe they think that this might be a means to convince EII to sell the game to another owner --- I think this cannot and will not work and the only result will be harm to the game due to loss of subscribers and a bleeding out of the communities.

    I think bashing the current owner of a game is not the way to achieve improvement. Like punishment will not make children better human beings, if that analogy bringt my point across.



        With an attitude like that to parenting i'd hate to have any involvment with children or projects of yours.



  • dand3dand3 San Rafael, CAPosts: 241Member


    Originally posted by Arremus
    You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".

    There have been many changes to all aspects of Horizons since release.  Crafting through tier V, with some tier VI, has been added, and Dragon Lairs are a major craft area.  Very well implemented too. 

    It seems a bit presumptuous for someone who has not played for a long time to be commenting on the game as it exists now... 

  • CholaynaCholayna My Boat, FLPosts: 1,604Member
    hmmmm, I think somehow, maybe far back in the line these guys at EI are relatives or even pod buddies of the NP3/Farlan/AD DNL fiasco. Almost mirroring the same actions. image
  • VallenarVallenar Madison, WIPosts: 124Member

    This is so sad it almost becomes funny.

    To quote Homer Simpson "It's funny because I don't know them."

  • ArremusArremus PerthPosts: 656Member

    Originally posted by dand3
    Originally posted by Arremus
    You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".

    There have been many changes to all aspects of Horizons since release.  Crafting through tier V, with some tier VI, has been added, and Dragon Lairs are a major craft area.  Very well implemented too.  It seems a bit presumptuous for someone who has not played for a long time to be commenting on the game as it exists now... 




    I was talking about the system of crafting, not how high you can craft.
    How has the overall system/setup/mechanics of crafting changed since release?

    Gathering up a crapload of resources, pushing a slider all the way to the right, crafting 50 x Generic Sword, then repeating over and over isn't really all that compelling a version of crafting you know..
    Is it still the same as this? Or did the mechanics get revamped too?

    Has there been many (any) new recipes added for all the tiers since release or a year after?

    I am being presumptuous because I think I can safely bet that the setup is exactly the same as when I left the game, bar the ability to craft slightly higher stuff...

    image
    "(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
    Oh. My. God.

  • KassiahKassiah On the Dark Side, MEPosts: 70Member

    Thanks for the great article, it was an interesting read for a former Horizon's player and Im looking forward to part 2. Over the years I have had the urge to give the game another go, and even tried the free trials twice, but never stuck with it. Of all the MMOs out there, Horizons is the one I most wanted to love, yet always ended up disappointing in. I still hang onto a dwindling hope it will one day be the great game it could have and should have been, but I fear that is just wishful thinking.

  • ZorvanZorvan nowhere, CAPosts: 8,912Member


    Originally posted by Arremus

    Originally posted by dand3
    Originally posted by Arremus
    You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".There have been many changes to all aspects of Horizons since release.  Crafting through tier V, with some tier VI, has been added, and Dragon Lairs are a major craft area.  Very well implemented too.  It seems a bit presumptuous for someone who has not played for a long time to be commenting on the game as it exists now... 



    I was talking about the system of crafting, not how high you can craft.
    How has the overall system/setup/mechanics of crafting changed since release?

    Gathering up a crapload of resources, pushing a slider all the way to the right, crafting 50 x Generic Sword, then repeating over and over isn't really all that compelling a version of crafting you know..
    Is it still the same as this? Or did the mechanics get revamped too?

    Has there been many (any) new recipes added for all the tiers since release or a year after?

    I am being presumptuous because I think I can safely bet that the setup is exactly the same as when I left the game, bar the ability to craft slightly higher stuff...


    Still the same bar-slider system. Still can't swim, you just walk along the bottom of the water and out the other side, or drown (except in Pratts Pond, which you can sit at the bottom of with no penalty. Some of the most horrid graphics I've ever seen, and that's at everything maxed. Who the hell wants a seam running down the back of their characters head, beards/hair that disappear into your body, characters that look like they are running with a corncob stuck in some dark place? The novelty of the dragon wears off quickly, so it's not an improvement as such. This game is still in late Alpha/ early beta phase as far as a finished product after all these years. How long can fanboism cause a person to be willing to pay for an unfinished game for years? With all the problems it has, and the state it's in, is it any wonder why a fleabag company like EI would be the only ones willing to touch it? Please. THE GAME IS DEAD. YOU JUST REFUSE TO CLOSE THE CASKET::::12::

  • snickelsnickel Frankfurt am MainPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by Parsifal57
    Originally posted by snickel
    [...]

    I think bashing the current owner of a game is not the way to achieve improvement. Like punishment will not make children better human beings, if that analogy bringt my point across.



        With an attitude like that to parenting i'd hate to have any involvment with children or projects of yours.


    Either you completely misunderstood what I posted (I'm very critical of punishment as a major educational method, thats why I used the analogy to bring my point across that game-owner bashing is useless) or you still think that punishment is the way to go. In that case I hope that you'll take the time to research the effects of educational methods. You'll find that an education that focuses on punishment usually has the opposite results from the ones intended.


  • snickelsnickel Frankfurt am MainPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by Zorvan

    Still the same bar-slider system. Still can't swim, you just walk along the bottom of the water and out the other side, or drown (except in Pratts Pond, which you can sit at the bottom of with no penalty. Some of the most horrid graphics I've ever seen, and that's at everything maxed. Who the hell wants a seam running down the back of their characters head, beards/hair that disappear into your body, characters that look like they are running with a corncob stuck in some dark place? The novelty of the dragon wears off quickly, so it's not an improvement as such. This game is still in late Alpha/ early beta phase as far as a finished product after all these years. How long can fanboism cause a person to be willing to pay for an unfinished game for years? With all the problems it has, and the state it's in, is it any wonder why a fleabag company like EI would be the only ones willing to touch it? Please. THE GAME IS DEAD. YOU JUST REFUSE TO CLOSE THE CASKET::::12::


    image I'm beginning to feel very young, remembering when I played cops and robbers and we children would get into arguments on whether one of us was 'dead' or not.
    You can shout THE GAME IS DEAD all you like, it doesn't change reality. The game is alive as long as people are left who play and enjoy it. Pronouncing it dead is just an indication that it is an urgent wish of you that it should be dead. But thats your problem, not the game's.


  • ZorvanZorvan nowhere, CAPosts: 8,912Member


    Originally posted by snickel

    Originally posted by Zorvan

    Still the same bar-slider system. Still can't swim, you just walk along the bottom of the water and out the other side, or drown (except in Pratts Pond, which you can sit at the bottom of with no penalty. Some of the most horrid graphics I've ever seen, and that's at everything maxed. Who the hell wants a seam running down the back of their characters head, beards/hair that disappear into your body, characters that look like they are running with a corncob stuck in some dark place? The novelty of the dragon wears off quickly, so it's not an improvement as such. This game is still in late Alpha/ early beta phase as far as a finished product after all these years. How long can fanboism cause a person to be willing to pay for an unfinished game for years? With all the problems it has, and the state it's in, is it any wonder why a fleabag company like EI would be the only ones willing to touch it? Please. THE GAME IS DEAD. YOU JUST REFUSE TO CLOSE THE CASKET::::12::


    image I'm beginning to feel very young, remembering when I played cops and robbers and we children would get into arguments on whether one of us was 'dead' or not.
    You can shout THE GAME IS DEAD all you like, it doesn't change reality. The game is alive as long as people are left who play and enjoy it. Pronouncing it dead is just an indication that it is an urgent wish of you that it should be dead. But thats your problem, not the game's.



    On the contrary, I do not "wish it dead". However, as I stated, do you really see anyone buying this franchise after all the trouble it's had and the fact that I'm sure it's lost more money than it's made? Why would anyone want to take a financial gamble on a game that has gone through at least 3 owners and has minimal improvements from the time it was first launched in "beta"? And if you really think EI is going to be the one to turn it around, then yes, you are deluded. I've seen their other game and I'm in no way impressed. They do not have the ability, knowledge, or desire to take the steps necessary to bring this game to it's original goals and standards. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, and I do know how hard it is to let go of a game you love, but when that game is continually being run into the ground by the people who are supposed to be picking it up, I would think that there would have to be a breaking point. you just haven't reached yours. Someone said that the game now has a retention rate of 50% according to the "developers". Well, if only 2 people tried it, and 1 actually stayed, that would make a 50% retention rate, correct? So, to that person, never put all of your faith in numbers, because they are the most easily manipulated aspect of any statistic.

  • snickelsnickel Frankfurt am MainPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by Zorvan
    ...

    On the contrary, I do not "wish it dead". However, as I stated, do you really see anyone buying this franchise after all the trouble it's had and the fact that I'm sure it's lost more money than it's made? Why would anyone want to take a financial gamble on a game that has gone through at least 3 owners and has minimal improvements from the time it was first launched in "beta"? And if you really think EI is going to be the one to turn it around, then yes, you are deluded. I've seen their other game and I'm in no way impressed. They do not have the ability, knowledge, or desire to take the steps necessary to bring this game to it's original goals and standards. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, and I do know how hard it is to let go of a game you love, but when that game is continually being run into the ground by the people who are supposed to be picking it up, I would think that there would have to be a breaking point. you just haven't reached yours. Someone said that the game now has a retention rate of 50% according to the "developers". Well, if only 2 people tried it, and 1 actually stayed, that would make a 50% retention rate, correct? So, to that person, never put all of your faith in numbers, because they are the most easily manipulated aspect of any statistic.


    Zorvan, there is a big difference between saying 'I personally have no hope for this game' and 'this game is dead'. The first is your opinion, backed up by facts that you consider relevant, the latter is a statement that might influence people not to give it a try -- thus effectively reducing the game's chances to pull around.

    This game is still alive. What hopes it has for the future depends on a lot of different variables, one of them is that people find out for themselves if they like what it offers or not.


Sign In or Register to comment.