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Which RPG raid boss is the toughest? (post screenshots)

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  • SycondamanSycondaman Member Posts: 262


    Originally posted by Sheista
    I would definitely have to say EQ has the toughest bosses.  There are still some raid boss mobs in EQ of which only a few guilds in all of EQ have killed.  I still remember how much of an acheivment it always was to be in the guild that had managed to down one of the big mobs of the game.



    I'd have to say EQ has always had the hardest raid bosses.  There was at one point a raid boss that took about 60-100 well equipped max level, alternate advanced characters to take down.   Of course, I think the level cap was raised and now a 20-man group could probably take him :P  But often they have bosses that require more than 1 full raid group to take down.
  • lomillerlomiller Member Posts: 1,810



    Originally posted by volcom69_er

    naxx - 40man  no one has cleard it yet and its been out for a good month



    That long? ;) In EQ2 the Djinn Master Prism was defeated just once before the game’s level cap was raised from 60 to 70 and there may still be some servers where it hasn’t been defeated 6 months after the level cap was raised.  


     

    For the level 70 raids the Direvine Matron still hasn’t been defeated.  She is set to have her critical hits taken away in the near future so she should be killed before the next expansion arrives.


     

    Nagafen (Level 100 dragon) is designed to be unkillable and probably has no loot table, but you can die fighting him if you want.  To be fair, he’s a quest mob/NPC not a raid mob and as I said isn’t meant to be killed and in 2 years he hasn't been.

  • JaziaJazia Member Posts: 584


    Originally posted by xplororor
    You keep mentioning private servers. What is the difference between a private L2 server, and a regular, public L2 server?


    Offical servers are "normal". Run by the NCsoft who made the game.

    Private servers suppose to be illegal. Run by individual players. And there, they have everything different. A weapon can be made to kill the top boss in 1 hit if they want.

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204

    Are there any raid bosses that really require thinking on your feet and not just repeating some pattern like 'run over here if you get this effect' 'stop attacking for X seconds when he does the special move'?

  • SycondamanSycondaman Member Posts: 262


    Originally posted by Pantastic

    Are there any raid bosses that really require thinking on your feet and not just repeating some pattern like 'run over here if you get this effect' 'stop attacking for X seconds when he does the special move'?


    Not yet.
  • MouserqMouserq Member Posts: 68



    Originally posted by Pantastic

    Are there any raid bosses that really require thinking on your feet and not just repeating some pattern like 'run over here if you get this effect' 'stop attacking for X seconds when he does the special move'?


    Unfortunately not exactly. Some fights are broken up into phases that change the battle dramatically, but they are more or less scripted. There is, however, the random effect that still keeps you thinking many times. Once you learn an encounter, you may know what all can happen, but you won't know when certain things will and happen and to whom. So fights can really play out differently each time. One terrible example is Vael. If your raid 'randomly' has too many healers getting Burning Adrenaline early on in the fight, then you're pretty much ensured of a wipe. But it's all random.

    I'm not really sure how advanced AI is atm in terms of what devs can add to raid encounters. It just seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to create a 'truly' dynamic fight that wasn't at least partly scripted. I mean, even 'random' in computer terms isn't really random. But I would love to see these encounters at that level though.
  • bananbanan Member UncommonPosts: 9
  • bananbanan Member UncommonPosts: 9
  • aphoniamuteaphoniamute Member UncommonPosts: 42
    .
  • ViolentYViolentY Member Posts: 1,458


    Originally posted by xplororor

    I do thank you for posting that link showing L2 in action. After watching that video I WILL agree with you that is no baby dragon heh. I will have to say that now, L2 is easily equal to WoW when it comes to top bosses.

    Equal? Are you kidding me? Those 200 players in the screenshot probably couldn't even fit inside the sprite of Antharas... it looks like Ysondre could be filled with a small raid group.

    An uber monster doesn't necessarily mean it must have 1,000 or 500 or 200 players to bring it down. For example in WoW a regular instance is limited to 5 players maximum. If the boss gives those 5 players an insane run for their money, some would say it is the same as a boss giving 500 players an insane run for their money.

    Except this discussion is what raid is, essentially, the biggest and baddest raid. I could say me fighting a skeleton warrior at level 5 was epic, because compared to my level the skeleton was a crazy fight... but we're not going by how intense it was per person there, we're going for how intense it is PERIOD. ;)


    Like the 2 last bosses in Deadmines (DM) dungeon in WoW. 1 of them automatically stuns the entire group, while he takes his time to go back to his chest to get a new and different set of weapons. His DPS (damage per second) obviously changes. Then he comes back, and HE chooses who he will start attacking. And there is NOTHING the group can do about it, because everyone is stunned. (Can't move, can't run, can't cast, can't swing, litterally can't do a single thing except watch your screen and hope.) The stun does eventually wear off.

    The very last DM boss has a surprise of his own. He is on the top deck of a giant ship. He starts out with 2 bodyguards. When he is near death, he calls more bodyguards who come out of nowhere. (There is no way to find them beforehand, no way to see where they are ahead of time.) The group has to instantly decide what to do, how to deal with it. If 1 member is not paying attention, everyone gets wiped.

    The ironic thing... I've done VC roughly 20 times in the past few weeks trying to get a cruel barb. That's not even including the other times I've run VC on my other characters... needless to say, I know everything there is to know about Deadmines. VC is no big deal (not just Edwin... the entire instance is no big deal.).

    [Skip if you don't want to read about an annoying rant about WoW]

    Rhak'Zhor, pat, Sneed's Shredder + Sneed (possible place for a treasure chest /random), pat, check for Minor Johnson, open doors to the smelting room (possible place for a treasure chest, /random), make way down to Gilned (which will probably drop those God-damned smelting pants), open door, pat from way behind, either get the defias powder or have rogue unlock door to docks, either take the quick way through the water to Smite's island or wipe the dock, sap/sheep one of Smite's adds, kill his adds before you kill him, start dps'ing Smite (the stun + switching his weapons are nothing...), after he drops loot him for either the thief's blade or smite's axe or some other weapon, pretend to /random on the chest, make way up to VC (REMEMBER THE WHEEL!), kill Captain Greenskin (Emberstone staff or some spear thing) and his adds, then you can use the cannon glitch with VC or you can just all-out dps him, HE'LL DROP THE GOD-DAMN CORSAIR'S SHIRT OR ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THE CRUEL BARB, and then you can jump down and kill Cookie for the tenderizer, or maybe the stirring stick wand thingie.

    [End skip]

    Lineage 2 FTW.


    _____________________________________
    "Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
    Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."

    -Machiavelli

  • MouserqMouserq Member Posts: 68
    It's still an artificial way of making something more difficult. They could make a dragon with 10 btrillion hp that required everyone who's ever played an MMO to defeat...doesn't mean you really make it harder. That's like saying a car is better because it costs more money. Using the same lame tactics of tank and spank also doesn't make anything more difficult. There's no time spent 'learning' the encounter, just the same tactics with more people.

    Also, VC is nothing to relate end game raid encounters to.

    WoW hands down.


  • XvKillJoyvXXvKillJoyvX Member Posts: 39


    Originally posted by ViolentY

    Ysondre? This Ysondre? That's supposed to "make the dragon in that L2 screenshot look like a little baby...."?

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=MFJsnJjeVXA&search=valakas [Obviously a private server].

    Skip about halfway through, when he finally zooms out and you can see how big he is...

    And Valakas is actually smaller than Antharas is. [A "less cheating", yet still private server].

    L2 wins this competition.





    Quarm

    I think Quarm from EQ1 Plane of Time might have those lineage 2 dragons beat in terms of size but I dont know about the difficulty.

     I remember for the longest time The Sleeper (EQ1 again) was considered unkillable but I think it was done eventually by using exploits but dont quote me on that. It's been a long time.

  • aphoniamuteaphoniamute Member UncommonPosts: 42
    After level 40, I'd say almost every Lineage 2 boss would be incredibly
    hard to beat and would need 100's of people if not for the fact that
    you can spam healing potions, soulshots and blessed spiritshots. Think
    about not having those and it would practically be heckaroonie trying
    to kill any boss.

    One of the problems I had with Lineage 2 and
    the Valakas raid was that everytime we got one organized with about 150
    people +, you'd find out that some of the people in the smaller groups
    weren't there to fight the raid boss, but to get as many drops from
    palyer deaths.  I was in one group where about 20 people sat there just
    attacking it without using any special techniques, spells, spiritshots,
    etc... (if you've played you know what I'm talking about) and waited
    for people to die and picked up their armor and weapons and never
    returned it. 

    So yes killing Valakas on one hand is impressive
    since getting enough people organized to do it is amazing feat in
    itself.  But on the other hand it could probably done a lot more ofter
    if problems like that didn't occur as often as they do.  I don't think
    the bosses are terribly hard in Lineage 2, like most mmo's you
    basically sit in a pattern and do the samething until it's dead.  If
    you have warriors that can't hold the aggro then all heckaroonie breaks
    loose.

    I remember just recently during the Seven Spirits of
    Mischief escaped raid bosses that A LOT of groups had problems killing
    some of the level 40 to 50 raid bosses because of raid thieves (the one
    north of dion in cruma area with the two healer raid minions).  Pain in
    the buttocks, once someone takes someone's equipment... people forget
    about the monster and start yelling for their equipment back.

    Anyway
    that's my two cents on the whole subject.  Sorry if I made lineage 2
    fans mad by the statements I made.  I still play it off an on.  Luckily
    here in california compusa sells the 2 month gamecards for 5 to 10
    dollars (they call them manager specials) every once in awhile.


    BTW
    unrelated question.... is the company who made RYL going out of
    business soon or something. Because I was at Compusa the other day and
    the game was on sale for 7 dollars a couple of weekends ago (and now is
    back up to a whopping 10 dollars) and the 60 day card has been on sale
    for the past 6 months for 10 bucks.  I was gonna try it but my bf won't
    go on to play with me.  I don't want to play alone... SO SCARED!

    BTW BTW, sorry for this long post.  Sorry!!!

  • XvKillJoyvXXvKillJoyvX Member Posts: 39
      RYL was never very popular because it's a crappy game (imo). The only reason it got as much attention as it did was the whole "Chance to win $1,000,000 in PvP contest" thing. Not sure if anyone ended up getting paid.
  • XzaroXzaro Member UncommonPosts: 1,719


    Originally posted by Mouserq
    It's still an artificial way of making something more difficult. They could make a dragon with 10 btrillion hp that required everyone who's ever played an MMO to defeat...doesn't mean you really make it harder. That's like saying a car is better because it costs more money. Using the same lame tactics of tank and spank also doesn't make anything more difficult. There's no time spent 'learning' the encounter, just the same tactics with more people.

    Also, VC is nothing to relate end game raid encounters to.

    WoW hands down.




    It most definately is harder. Organizing several alliances (which consists of a few top guilds each alliance) who may already hate each other just to beat a raid boss, is most definately harder than organizing just one guild. It's an amazing feat just to get several alliances to work together. Not to mention that the process and time it takes to even allow you to attempt the raid bosses (Antharas and Valakas) takes a lot of time. It takes about a year for enough players to get to the minimum level to even think about attempting antharas/valakas. Then it takes at least a few months to plan and organize it. This is assuming you can get the alliances to even attempt to work together, which takes good leaders. Also, they can't just go in and zerg over and over again until they beat it, either. It's not a mindless zergfest. The penalty for dieing in Lineage 2 is...well, lets just say its a few weeks work lost just for dieing once for the average player.

    image

  • naldricnaldric Member UncommonPosts: 909


    Originally posted by XvKillJoyvX
      RYL was never very popular because it's a crappy game (imo). The only reason it got as much attention as it did was the whole "Chance to win $1,000,000 in PvP contest" thing. Not sure if anyone ended up getting paid.


    OOT No, it was called off because supposedly ppl cheated, so they got a reason to call it off...
  • aphoniamuteaphoniamute Member UncommonPosts: 42
    It most definately is harder. Organizing several alliances (which consists of a few top guilds each alliance) who may already hate each other just to beat a raid boss, is most definately harder than organizing just one guild. It's an amazing feat just to get several alliances to work together. Not to mention that the process and time it takes to even allow you to attempt the raid bosses (Antharas and Valakas) takes a lot of time. It takes about a year for enough players to get to the minimum level to even think about attempting antharas/valakas. Then it takes at least a few months to plan and organize it. This is assuming you can get the alliances to even attempt to work together, which takes good leaders. Also, they can't just go in and zerg over and over again until they beat it, either. It's not a mindless zergfest. The penalty for dieing in Lineage 2 is...well, lets just say its a few weeks work lost just for dieing once for the average player.



    With that statement and what I said earlier, I don't think the bosses are terribly hard in Lineage 2.  I think organizing the party is harder than the actual boss.  If you have a great group then you don't have an issue on any raid boss.  If you have a few people that have no intention of helping and are there to cause problem then Lineage 2 raids can be vicious. 

    Just thinking of another horror story now about Lineage 2 Raid Bosses... I remember fighting Timak Seer Ragth or Ragoth (sounds about right, a level 50+ raid boss... maybe 55??).  ANYWHOT!  We started fighting and everyone was doing fine and someone died because agro didn't stick on one of the warriors in the group and attacked a healer.  Anyway this healer started complaining about dying and when he was revived (didn't lose any equipment)  started healing and buffing the boss.  It disrupted and ruined the entire raid.  Never got to complete it and had to disperse back into town.  Then we were never able to form another group to kill it. 

    BTW my friend just made a joke saying "I'm sure the bots could automate an easy script to kill Valakas if they decided to go after it... There's just not enough profit in it for them though"

    I chuckled!


  • MouserqMouserq Member Posts: 68

    Like I said, I agree it IS hard to organize 200 people, but once you have them it appears to be a fairly straightforward battle with no real tactics. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that if the hardest part of taking down an enemy is getting the people together, then that is just really piss poor design IMO. That is organizing outside of the game mechanics. A really well designed raid encounter puts all that raid planning and whatnot aside and concentrates on making the encounter dynamic and challenging WITHIN the game mechanics without artificially inflating it by adding 0s to the hp or whatever. It's just a lazy cheat code for devs to make you think it's hard. This is why I say that the only thing WoW does well is raid encounters. You have to really spend time on the latest encounters wiping numerous times trying to figure out what the fight is all about and learning what to expect and what different tactics will work before you ever defeat it. Already having the right number of people and the gear and THEN spending 1 month+ trying to figure out how to kill it is the REAL challenge.


  • aphoniamuteaphoniamute Member UncommonPosts: 42
    Sorry I'm typing so much btw... I'm in a typing mood!

    The thing that frustrates me the most on Lineage 2 is that they have a Party Matching tool in the game (/partymatching). BUT NOOOOOOOOOO one uses it.  Basically a little LOOKING FOR PARTY pops up over your head, and anyone else who types or clicks the /partymatching button then gets a new window with all the people looking for groups. And you don't even have to be in the same town/village/cave/etc... to see who's looking for a group.  You can be in the middle of a battle, type /partymatching and see who's looking to form parties.  But again NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO one uses it. You think people would use that more often but they don't.

    Now the creators of the game said they are making improvements to the partymatching service (i think they are going to allow you to set more parameters like what type of characters you're looking for).  In theory I think that sounds great.  Heck I think it's ok for what it is right now, but I think just cause they add this feature I don't think people are going to start using the /partymatching service because they add a new feature to it.  People are so used to going to town and doing !SHOUTS for groups.  I really don't understand why people are so brain washed into shouting in town instead of using the party matching tool.  I constantly use the partymatching tool in Lineage 2, and sometimes on the Kain server I still get people who are level 50+ and have been playing for awhile asking me... "HEY, how'd you get that LOOKING FOR PARTY over you're head?"

    I guess I just don't get it. Shouting is the way of man I guess.


    HEY IS ANYONE HERE LOOKING FOR A PARTY.


    And since I'm on a typing tangent.  That's another weird thing about people spamming in the chat channels looking for groups.  After they send like 5 to 6 message in a row to try and organize a party (for those of you who don't know they have to compete over shout with the people selling stuff) they get chat banned (can't type any regular, private or trade channel shouts [which hardly anyone uses, there are a few that do and I love em])  So one time a person is shouting that he needs 1 more person to fill his group to go on a low level raid.  Unfortunately he's gotten himself chat banned so when I go to message him saying I would like to join, he can't respond because he's got to wait 1 to 5 minute(s) (depending on how much he's spammed) before he can answer me back.

    I'm actually playing Lineage 2 right now since I've got some downtime, but I tells ya... Some of the things in this game drive me nuts.

    I JUST WANT TO GET TO THE WAREHOUSE TO GET MY STUFF (in giran starting from the gatekeeper).

    **Anyone who plays Lineage 2 understands how short of a distance that is but how much of a pain it can be sometimes.

  • kahnzkahnz Member Posts: 244


    Originally posted by Pantastic

    Are there any raid bosses that really require thinking on your feet and not just repeating some pattern like 'run over here if you get this effect' 'stop attacking for X seconds when he does the special move'?



    no because a raid boss has so much firepower and so much HP that players have to learn his patterns then find the weakness. The firepower of the players zerg can't compare to that of the raid boss or it will just be a tank and spank.   Good raid bosses take multiple attempts before they are beaten.  I would like to see some bosses who have a little more complex AI.  Maybe if they even changed their attack patterns every time they die.

    Either way, I am not a big supporter of the 200 man raid.  I prefer a few small groups with a specific job to do.  Those raids and those bosses are much more fun.  I think the 200 man raids should be reserved for when the giant dragon attacks town.  Let the dragons farm the players for a change.

  • aphoniamuteaphoniamute Member UncommonPosts: 42



    Either way, I am not a big supporter of the 200 man raid.  I prefer a few small groups with a specific job to do.  Those raids and those bosses are much more fun.  I think the 200 man raids should be reserved for when the giant dragon attacks town.  Let the dragons farm the players for a change.


    OH MY GOD, That would be so awesome for Lineage 2 in Giran... That would keep everyone on their toes.  THAT WOULD BE SOOOOOO COOL.  No more Bot Shops in Giran!

    I Vote for DO IT Lineage 2 people!

  • Originally posted by kahnz


    Originally posted by Pantastic

    Are there any raid bosses that really require thinking on your feet and not just repeating some pattern like 'run over here if you get this effect' 'stop attacking for X seconds when he does the special move'?


    no because a raid boss has so much firepower and so much HP that players have to learn his patterns then find the weakness. The firepower of the players zerg can't compare to that of the raid boss or it will just be a tank and spank.   Good raid bosses take multiple attempts before they are beaten.  I would like to see some bosses who have a little more complex AI.  Maybe if they even changed their attack patterns every time they die.

    Either way, I am not a big supporter of the 200 man raid.  I prefer a few small groups with a specific job to do.  Those raids and those bosses are much more fun.  I think the 200 man raids should be reserved for when the giant dragon attacks town.  Let the dragons farm the players for a change.



    It is intresting that you said this. One of the things (out of many...) that makes WoW intresting and unique, is that they do have something like this. In the area of Duskwood there is another boss monster that every once in a while spawns, and then travels around killing everyone in his path. He's roughly the height of 3-4 players, a giant. Paleish skin, and very ugly. Looks like something that a plastic surgeon worked on while drunk. He kills all players, AND all NPC guards. He then travels to town, and slaughters everything! Most players are too used to roads, and/or towns being safe in most mmorpgs. Blizzard shows their unique humor by putting this in their game WoW. Players need to travel this road, and need to use this town lol.


    The boss is killable, if a group of high level players got together, and paid attention. I've seen this boss once, and ran. I panned the camera as I ran, and saw it leave the road, sniff a player Dwarf who wasn't sure what to do, then go back to the road.


    It's not a "dragon farming players". But still is a npc monster "farming players" lol.


    Also in other areas of WoW, big bosses will spawn and kill players, and NPCs, until an army of NPC guards finally do their thing. Like in Stormwind (one of the capital alliance cities). A boss named Onyxia and her henchmen will lay waste to where the king is at. Usually players are ok because most players do not need to be in those areas.

  • JaziaJazia Member Posts: 584


    Originally posted by xplororor
    Originally posted by kahnz
    Originally posted by Pantastic Are there any raid bosses that really require thinking on your feet and not just repeating some pattern like 'run over here if you get this effect' 'stop attacking for X seconds when he does the special move'?
    no because a raid boss has so much firepower and so much HP that players have to learn his patterns then find the weakness. The firepower of the players zerg can't compare to that of the raid boss or it will just be a tank and spank.   Good raid bosses take multiple attempts before they are beaten.  I would like to see some bosses who have a little more complex AI.  Maybe if they even changed their attack patterns every time they die.
    Either way, I am not a big supporter of the 200 man raid.  I prefer a few small groups with a specific job to do.  Those raids and those bosses are much more fun.  I think the 200 man raids should be reserved for when the giant dragon attacks town.  Let the dragons farm the players for a change.
    It is intresting that you said this. One of the things (out of many...) that makes WoW intresting and unique, is that they do have something like this. In the area of Duskwood there is another boss monster that every once in a while spawns, and then travels around killing everyone in his path. He's roughly the height of 3-4 players, a giant. Paleish skin, and very ugly. Looks like something that a plastic surgeon worked on while drunk. He kills all players, AND all NPC guards. He then travels to town, and slaughters everything! Most players are too used to roads, and/or towns being safe in most mmorpgs. Blizzard shows their unique humor by putting this in their game WoW. Players need to travel this road, and need to use this town lol.The boss is killable, if a group of high level players got together, and paid attention. I've seen this boss once, and ran. I panned the camera as I ran, and saw it leave the road, sniff a player Dwarf who wasn't sure what to do, then go back to the road.It's not a "dragon farming players". But still is a npc monster "farming players" lol.
    Also in other areas of WoW, big bosses will spawn and kill players, and NPCs, until an army of NPC guards finally do their thing. Like in Stormwind (one of the capital alliance cities). A boss named Onyxia and her henchmen will lay waste to where the king is at. Usually players are ok because most players do not need to be in those areas.

    That works in wow because there is NO real penalty for death. So when you players get killed by that random traveilling boss, you would just say "haha". Thus I doubt WOW players really think that much in the fight. Since there is no penalty...


    L2 on the other hand, if you die to a mob, not only you will lose 4% XP if you don't get a % rez from healer, you will have a chance to drop gears. And high level gears don't come easy in L2. I agree this kind of penalty is a bit harsh, but it force players think a lot more about how to not dying. It's not just for PvE, as L2 is a war game.

    Well obivously random traveling boss will not work in L2 under this kind of heavy penalty.

  • logangregorlogangregor Member Posts: 1,524

    bleh you pve guys make me sick

    Go get your gear bloobs

    image

  • JaziaJazia Member Posts: 584


    Originally posted by logangregor


    bleh you pve guys make me sick

    Go get your gear bloobs


    Not true for L2.

    Raid in L2 is nothing like in many other games, you do NOT form random parties to go for boss, because you will never know if your random party members would steal the loot of even steal your gears when you drop them upon death. In L2 all the raids are done by clans, alliances

    so basicly in L2 the raid is for

    1. Better your clan's/alliance's organization. You will need that in war with other clans/alliances. Specially huge Castle Siege.

    2. Bosses drop good items. You can never have too much money in L2. Having better gears and being rich will give you advantage in PvP.

    3. Another important fact. Quite some wars in L2 were caused by two alliances try to get the same boss. Thus boss raids also create wars in L2 for more PvP.

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