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Nice Raph Koster comment

DistilerDistiler BarcelonaMember Posts: 416
I always read his blog. Even if you agree or not with him, this man is doing great from the educational point of view, I feel I'm learning a lot from his reading. There are not so many developers writing theirs ideas so openly.

Some nice thing digged from last article:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/18/use-based-systems/

"A fun little story for those who think SWG was still too grindy: three
days before the game launched, the designer in charge of advancement
rates went through them and made them all ten times slower. His concern
was that players would max out the game in a matter of weeks, and then
quit. This actually hit the live beta servers, and I reverted it back
out as soon as I saw how excruciatingly slow it was: making literally
thousands of blaster bolts to advance one skill box. I felt that I’d
rather people exit the game having had fun, than stay and not have fun,
or quit because it was too grindy."

Comments

  • RekrulRekrul N/A, ALMember Posts: 2,961
    It's also a very clear indication of why SWG was a disaster since before it even started.

    Two people making such radical changes swinging from one side to another. I mean, a 5% change in a balanced environment can break it. 10x?

    And people complain in GW when one skill has 2% bonus over another since such drastic imbalance is considered gamebreaking.

    But regardless, this has always been the case. All the changes that were ever made went from one extreme to another, and that's not even counting the CU and NGE. SWG is just a bowl of mashed potatos. There's even some lettuce in there, some beans, a 2 pound steak, a milk shake and a frankfurter. But hey, if you mash it hard enough, it's good enough to call it mashed potatos.


  • RekrulRekrul N/A, ALMember Posts: 2,961


    Originally posted by Rekrul
    It's also a very clear indication of why SWG was a disaster since before it even started.

    Two people making such radical changes swinging from one side to another. I mean, a 5% change in a balanced environment can break it. 10x?

    And people complain in GW when one skill has 2% bonus over another since such drastic imbalance is considered gamebreaking.

    But regardless, this has always been the case. All the changes that were ever made went from one extreme to another, and that's not even counting the CU and NGE. SWG is just a bowl of mashed potatos. There's even some lettuce in there, some beans, a 2 pound steak, a milk shake and a frankfurter. But hey, if you mash it hard enough, it's good enough to call it mashed potatos.



    And since I brought up GW again, reading Raph's comments made me chuckle on this:



    Personally, if I were doing UO or SWG again, I’d let you learn every
    skill, but say that you needed to have certain tools to be able to do
    skills — and then just limit your inventory of tools. People would
    decide “who they want to be today” and grab what they need, and swap
    when they felt ready to.



    Because that's what GW is all about. Have all skills, then decide which you want to use. A concept that is extremly apealing to me.

    Seriously, someone get Raph a job at PlayNC, get him together with Lord British for business aspects, have ArenaNet code the whole thing and you have another hit game (even if not WoW killer, at least you get WoW antithesis)
  • iskareotiskareot Crown Point, INMember Posts: 2,143

    Alot of you guys really missed out on some neat things though, Beta was neat for a few reasons:

    They were making headway and chaning gaming as we knew it... EQ had some input sure, but it still was different.

    Raph and a few others did put us through some odd tests at times thats for sure, but no matter what upon launch it was more fun then now... no matter what the bugs were I would take them all back in a nano-second vs what the NGE did to the game.

    Pretty much, that SWG is gone... I am not sure why they even use the name SWG still, it's not the same game at all.   In fact, they should have told us at the NGE launch that nothing would be the same and everyting was being taken out... THIS WAY it would not have been such a farce or bullshit way to make people stay.

    SWG Lite -- or  SW a New Flock of Sheep... somthing, if they did this at least alot of us would not have tried to fool ourselves into thinking the game would work or even try it.

    I gave the NGE a month of play -- it was horrid and in hindsight the worst game experience I have ever had -- EVER, I had games for my Ti-99 that were better then that version.   How we went from somthing fun and that I loved to somthing so bad that thousands of people leave and friends lists clear is beyond me at this point.  

    The type of person that enjoys the NGE is not or even close to the type of gamer I am.. I understand that now more so then ever.   This is where the adults and the SIM game lovers were pushed out of SWG.

    We went from a more realistic type SIM, (all things considered) to a bad dummied down multiplayer game with little or none MMO qualities.     This is why alot of friends lists cleared out, alot of us were the same with that respect, we liked things hard and complex, we liked goals and diversity, we liked people in the game older then 14 and we each had our own little corner.

    Nancy Mcntyre thought different, she insisted on making us all 12 and simple minded, I considered that pretty much a insult and as a business man or someone with self respect could not pay these people any longer.

    I won't argue we need the Obriks in this world and people that are more accepting then others, by all means we do, but what I cannot understand is at what age do you grab your balls and actually ask questions or stand up to someone shiting on you.    No matter if it's just a game or a gumball machine, if your being ripped off-- your being ripped off.   You have to wonder if some people can actually see it as well.

    As I have said before, also told by a Dev to my face in front of people (Boy I bet Tim Timmerman wishes he did not say this out of frustration to me that day) -- "Mike, Ignorance is bliss right now in the game." ---  "I agreed with him as well."...   Kinda hard not to.

    ______________________________
    I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
    SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
    Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1

  • MX13MX13 Chicago, ILMember Posts: 2,489


    Originally posted by Rekrul

    Originally posted by Rekrul
    It's also a very clear indication of why SWG was a disaster since before it even started.

    Two people making such radical changes swinging from one side to another. I mean, a 5% change in a balanced environment can break it. 10x?

    And people complain in GW when one skill has 2% bonus over another since such drastic imbalance is considered gamebreaking.

    But regardless, this has always been the case. All the changes that were ever made went from one extreme to another, and that's not even counting the CU and NGE. SWG is just a bowl of mashed potatos. There's even some lettuce in there, some beans, a 2 pound steak, a milk shake and a frankfurter. But hey, if you mash it hard enough, it's good enough to call it mashed potatos.

    And since I brought up GW again, reading Raph's comments made me chuckle on this:



    Personally, if I were doing UO or SWG again, I’d let you learn every skill, but say that you needed to have certain tools to be able to do skills — and then just limit your inventory of tools. People would decide “who they want to be today” and grab what they need, and swap when they felt ready to.



    Because that's what GW is all about. Have all skills, then decide which you want to use. A concept that is extremly apealing to me.

    Seriously, someone get Raph a job at PlayNC, get him together with Lord British for business aspects, have ArenaNet code the whole thing and you have another hit game (even if not WoW killer, at least you get WoW antithesis)


    Well, if you're looking for a non-fantasy game, try MxO. That's EXACTLY what it is, just not fantasy.

    I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!

    In fact, forget the SWG!!!!

    image
    image
    image

  • MX13MX13 Chicago, ILMember Posts: 2,489


    Originally posted by Rekrul
    It's also a very clear indication of why SWG was a disaster since before it even started.

    Two people making such radical changes swinging from one side to another. I mean, a 5% change in a balanced environment can break it. 10x?

    And people complain in GW when one skill has 2% bonus over another since such drastic imbalance is considered gamebreaking.

    But regardless, this has always been the case. All the changes that were ever made went from one extreme to another, and that's not even counting the CU and NGE. SWG is just a bowl of mashed potatos. There's even some lettuce in there, some beans, a 2 pound steak, a milk shake and a frankfurter. But hey, if you mash it hard enough, it's good enough to call it mashed potatos.

    Regardless of it's flaws, the original SWG was a Groundbreaking Game. Personally, I would have liked to see that game with DDO's/FoM's combat style (that's basiclly where the NGE combat system is slowly going, VERY poorly). If the NGE wouldn't have touched the Professions (eliminating them) or the Skill Box system, and focused on the Combat engine, there wouldn't have been nearly as much of a backlash. I'm not advocating that, just observing where the real anger comes from from a majority of players.

    I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!

    In fact, forget the SWG!!!!

    image
    image
    image

  • RekrulRekrul N/A, ALMember Posts: 2,961


    Originally posted by MX13



    Well, if you're looking for a non-fantasy game, try MxO. That's EXACTLY what it is, just not fantasy.




    Yea... I did... I consider that game worse than NGE. I hope that says something. And when I played that, I couldn't figure out the interlock combat. That was probably the most unintuitive concept I've ever seen. But whatever, people have said that a lot about SWG before, so I see no point in going there.

    Through all this, I've only learned one thing. I'll be playing good games and personally apealing in the future. Setting, publisher, cost are all irrelevant. if the game suits me, I'm in, regardless of public opinion.
  • LaterisLateris Phoenix, AZMember Posts: 1,758 Uncommon









    They had plenty of years to get it right. But it is great to
    get the inside info straight from the source.






     
    Looking back I think SWG should have waited another year and
    finished including vehicles and space. We all know t he issues with deadlines.
    But sometimes to launch a quality product one must make a tough call and not
    underestimate the Star Wars fan by thinking they will accept a less than level
    quality of product. There really are no excuses for SOESWGand LA’s for
    screwing up.




    The balance issues should have stayed in beta where they could
    have been worked out before release.  I can remember reading post that was
    numbering in the hundreds that stated:” we love what you have done! It is just
    not ready”.  And the DEV’s responded
    defensively. And the sad thing is that we were educating them on RPG stats. We
    were educating them on Star Wars continuity. I felt like a Star Wars consultant hired for free. it was awful.




    So it is 3 years later and here we are with no AT AT walkers
    and 3 combat changes. It is utterly ridiculous to try to save a sinking ship.
    The only positive thing I have seen is the fact that we finally got to see a YT
    2400 land and be able to walk around inside pf that beautiful ship. If only there was a true gamer
    running the show for SWG who knew Star Wars and knew MMORPG. The same goes for the
    head of Luca Arts.




     




    And finally I really like your thread. He does say a lot of
    good things. But actions speak louder than words.   Myself and 100 others have designed a better Star Wars MMO> seriously.







  • ElnatorElnator Chesapeake, VAMember Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by MX13

    Originally posted by Rekrul
    It's also a very clear indication of why SWG was a disaster since before it even started.

    Two people making such radical changes swinging from one side to another. I mean, a 5% change in a balanced environment can break it. 10x?

    And people complain in GW when one skill has 2% bonus over another since such drastic imbalance is considered gamebreaking.

    But regardless, this has always been the case. All the changes that were ever made went from one extreme to another, and that's not even counting the CU and NGE. SWG is just a bowl of mashed potatos. There's even some lettuce in there, some beans, a 2 pound steak, a milk shake and a frankfurter. But hey, if you mash it hard enough, it's good enough to call it mashed potatos.

    Regardless of it's flaws, the original SWG was a Groundbreaking Game. Personally, I would have liked to see that game with DDO's/FoM's combat style (that's basiclly where the NGE combat system is slowly going, VERY poorly). If the NGE wouldn't have touched the Professions (eliminating them) or the Skill Box system, and focused on the Combat engine, there wouldn't have been nearly as much of a backlash. I'm not advocating that, just observing where the real anger comes from from a majority of players.


    Very true... if the NGE had only added the storyline content and changed the combat to the current method it would not have been nearly as badly received.  The big killer for most was the absolute elimination of the skill system and the destruction of the crafting classes.  If they'd just stuck to combat style it would have gone over a LOT better.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • FignarFignar LondonMember Posts: 417 Common


    Originally posted by Elnator

    Originally posted by MX13

    Originally posted by Rekrul
    It's also a very clear indication of why SWG was a disaster since before it even started.

    Two people making such radical changes swinging from one side to another. I mean, a 5% change in a balanced environment can break it. 10x?

    And people complain in GW when one skill has 2% bonus over another since such drastic imbalance is considered gamebreaking.

    But regardless, this has always been the case. All the changes that were ever made went from one extreme to another, and that's not even counting the CU and NGE. SWG is just a bowl of mashed potatos. There's even some lettuce in there, some beans, a 2 pound steak, a milk shake and a frankfurter. But hey, if you mash it hard enough, it's good enough to call it mashed potatos.

    Regardless of it's flaws, the original SWG was a Groundbreaking Game. Personally, I would have liked to see that game with DDO's/FoM's combat style (that's basiclly where the NGE combat system is slowly going, VERY poorly). If the NGE wouldn't have touched the Professions (eliminating them) or the Skill Box system, and focused on the Combat engine, there wouldn't have been nearly as much of a backlash. I'm not advocating that, just observing where the real anger comes from from a majority of players.


    Very true... if the NGE had only added the storyline content and changed the combat to the current method it would not have been nearly as badly received.  The big killer for most was the absolute elimination of the skill system and the destruction of the crafting classes.  If they'd just stuck to combat style it would have gone over a LOT better.


    QFE Totally agree.

    Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200

  • SpathotanSpathotan chesapeake, VAMember Posts: 3,928


    Originally posted by Elnator

    Originally posted by MX13

    Originally posted by Rekrul
    It's also a very clear indication of why SWG was a disaster since before it even started.

    Two people making such radical changes swinging from one side to another. I mean, a 5% change in a balanced environment can break it. 10x?

    And people complain in GW when one skill has 2% bonus over another since such drastic imbalance is considered gamebreaking.

    But regardless, this has always been the case. All the changes that were ever made went from one extreme to another, and that's not even counting the CU and NGE. SWG is just a bowl of mashed potatos. There's even some lettuce in there, some beans, a 2 pound steak, a milk shake and a frankfurter. But hey, if you mash it hard enough, it's good enough to call it mashed potatos.

    Regardless of it's flaws, the original SWG was a Groundbreaking Game. Personally, I would have liked to see that game with DDO's/FoM's combat style (that's basiclly where the NGE combat system is slowly going, VERY poorly). If the NGE wouldn't have touched the Professions (eliminating them) or the Skill Box system, and focused on the Combat engine, there wouldn't have been nearly as much of a backlash. I'm not advocating that, just observing where the real anger comes from from a majority of players.


    Very true... if the NGE had only added the storyline content and changed the combat to the current method it would not have been nearly as badly received.  The big killer for most was the absolute elimination of the skill system and the destruction of the crafting classes.  If they'd just stuck to combat style it would have gone over a LOT better.


    What? Come on....why do people need crafting and a strong community when they have catchy little things like prequel expansions/planets in a post episode 3 game, cool particle effects, ph47 l3w7z, Mandolorian armor for everybody 1000 years after the Mandolorians basically went extinct, and Jedi Starfighters? You fail for not agreeing with SoE, you are just the minority.

    "There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
    — Boba Fett

  • SpathotanSpathotan chesapeake, VAMember Posts: 3,928
    Wow...the sarcasm in my above post is almost unbearable, I think my eyes are starting to bleed. Yay post count up.

    "There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
    — Boba Fett

  • KenshuAniKenshuAni Casper, WYMember Posts: 851 Common


    Originally posted by iskareot

    I gave the NGE a month of play -- it was horrid and in hindsight the worst game experience I have ever had -- EVER, I had games for my Ti-99 that were better then that version.   How we went from somthing fun and that I loved to somthing so bad that thousands of people leave and friends lists clear is beyond me at this point.  


    Worst game experience ever?  If you just include game experience and don't limit it to MMORPG game experience then I can top the NGE easily.

    In fact, I can think of another game that came out based on a hit movie.  E.T. for the Atari 2600.

    I don't remember how long I played it, but I do remember tossing it in the garbage on Christmas day.

  • RekrulRekrul N/A, ALMember Posts: 2,961


    Originally posted by KenshuAni




    In fact, I can think of another game that came out based on a hit movie.  E.T. for the Atari 2600.



    After reading the demise of those games, I'm starting to think, that perhaps someone should check these landfills again. I mean, plenty of SOE developers went abruptly missing.
  • SpathotanSpathotan chesapeake, VAMember Posts: 3,928


    Originally posted by KenshuAni

    Originally posted by iskareot

    I gave the NGE a month of play -- it was horrid and in hindsight the worst game experience I have ever had -- EVER, I had games for my Ti-99 that were better then that version.   How we went from somthing fun and that I loved to somthing so bad that thousands of people leave and friends lists clear is beyond me at this point.  


    Worst game experience ever?  If you just include game experience and don't limit it to MMORPG game experience then I can top the NGE easily.

    In fact, I can think of another game that came out based on a hit movie.  E.T. for the Atari 2600.

    I don't remember how long I played it, but I do remember tossing it in the garbage on Christmas day.


    That game was so bad they never could get rid of them, so Atari took them and burried them out in the desert in Nevada, was like a million copys of it I think. It was basically the "fall" of Atari, they spent basically every dime on getting the license and well...lets just say the game didnt do as good as the movie.

    "There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
    — Boba Fett

  • KenshuAniKenshuAni Casper, WYMember Posts: 851 Common


    Originally posted by Spathotan
    That game was so bad they never could get rid of them, so Atari took them and burried them out in the desert in Nevada, was like a million copys of it I think. It was basically the "fall" of Atari, they spent basically every dime on getting the license and well...lets just say the game didnt do as good as the movie.


    In the link above, they state that 5 million copies were returned to Atari from the distributors that couldn't sell the game.

    My favorite quote from the article:

    Some other video game manufacturers attempted to rid themselves of excess inventory by selling it at sharply reduced prices, but Atari, stuck with millions of games and consoles that were largely unsellable at any price, sent fourteen truckloads of merchandise from their plant in El Paso, Texas, to be dumped in a city landfill in Alamogordo, New Mexico in late September 1983. In order to keep the site from being looted, steamrollers crushed and flattened the games, and a concrete slab was poured over the remains.

  • SpathotanSpathotan chesapeake, VAMember Posts: 3,928


    Originally posted by KenshuAni


    Originally posted by Spathotan

    That game was so bad they never could get rid of them, so Atari took them and burried them out in the desert in Nevada, was like a million copys of it I think. It was basically the "fall" of Atari, they spent basically every dime on getting the license and well...lets just say the game didnt do as good as the movie.



    In the link above, they state that 5 million copies were returned to Atari from the distributors that couldn't sell the game.

    My favorite quote from the article:

    Some other video game manufacturers attempted to rid themselves of excess inventory by selling it at sharply reduced prices, but Atari, stuck with millions of games and consoles that were largely unsellable at any price, sent fourteen truckloads of merchandise from their plant in El Paso, Texas, to be dumped in a city landfill in Alamogordo, New Mexico in late September 1983. In order to keep the site from being looted, steamrollers crushed and flattened the games, and a concrete slab was poured over the remains.


    Damn, I didnt even notice your link, sorry about that.

    "There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
    — Boba Fett

  • CasualMakerCasualMaker Somerset, NJMember Posts: 862 Uncommon


    Originally posted by MX13

    If the NGE wouldn't have touched the Professions (eliminating them) or the Skill Box system, and focused on the Combat engine, there wouldn't have been nearly as much of a backlash. I'm not advocating that, just observing where the real anger comes from from a majority of players.

    Umm, they did do that: changing the combat engine while (largely) leaving the professions and skills alone. That was the CU and it had a huge backlash too. Probably one reason the backlash against NGE was so much worse was the people had already been burned, and were feeling wary of SOE's "wonderful new ideas".
  • iskareotiskareot Crown Point, INMember Posts: 2,143


    Originally posted by KenshuAni

    Originally posted by iskareot

    I gave the NGE a month of play -- it was horrid and in hindsight the worst game experience I have ever had -- EVER, I had games for my Ti-99 that were better then that version.   How we went from somthing fun and that I loved to somthing so bad that thousands of people leave and friends lists clear is beyond me at this point.  


    Worst game experience ever?  If you just include game experience and don't limit it to MMORPG game experience then I can top the NGE easily.

    In fact, I can think of another game that came out based on a hit movie.  E.T. for the Atari 2600.

    I don't remember how long I played it, but I do remember tossing it in the garbage on Christmas day.


    ROFL Hey I used that one before -- lol I will say MMO but -- I want to say that E T was right there, so your right sorry lol.

    Again, I always use that... man it was so bad.   I remember playing it too and REMEMBER WHAT HAPPEND IF YOU DID NOT GET HIM TO THE SHIP ??   The damn thing would leave as you got there and you would have to find out where it landed all over again.

    Man I hated that thing.   

    ______________________________
    I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
    SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
    Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1

  • MX13MX13 Chicago, ILMember Posts: 2,489


    Originally posted by CasualMaker

    Originally posted by MX13

    If the NGE wouldn't have touched the Professions (eliminating them) or the Skill Box system, and focused on the Combat engine, there wouldn't have been nearly as much of a backlash. I'm not advocating that, just observing where the real anger comes from from a majority of players.

    Umm, they did do that: changing the combat engine while (largely) leaving the professions and skills alone. That was the CU and it had a huge backlash too. Probably one reason the backlash against NGE was so much worse was the people had already been burned, and were feeling wary of SOE's "wonderful new ideas".


    Like I said, I don't Advocate changing the combat system, that's just asking for trouble, but the Main Backlash came from one main thing: They Destroyed Player Accomplishments.

    That's a Golden Rule of MMO'ing, you just don't take away peoples accomplishments, and SOE has NEVER gotten that. I think they've done that in most of their games.

    I lost:

    • Perfect Stun Comp, 5 Sets- Worthless
    • Mando Helmet- Worthless
    • Exceptional Rifle with 33% Slice- Worthless
    • Geo Pistol w/ strong Mind Fire- Worthless
    • Perfect RIS set- Worthless
    • Power Hammer w/ Desiese- Worthless
    • Perfect Ackley Power Hammer w/ 33% Slice- Worthless
    • Hundreds of Millions of Various Loot, Modifiers & Equipment- Worthless
    • And I could keep going...

    If they would have changed the combat system, but taken their time and only capped/balanced all of the other items, people would have left, but many would have come back... after all, all they had worked for would have still been there, and special.

    I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!

    In fact, forget the SWG!!!!

    image
    image
    image

  • VastarVastar Lincoln, NEMember Posts: 176


    Originally posted by CasualMaker

    Umm, they did do that: changing the combat engine while (largely) leaving the professions and skills alone.

     
    I suppose things were somewhat similar if you wern't an Armorsmith.
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