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PK's. How should they be dealt with?And the ppl they killed?

PhilPhil DublinPosts: 7Member
Hello there! Im new to mmorpgs and havent played any,yet. Im a student studying computer games design and over the past week have been reading up on mmorpgs.
The area of PK's and the ppl they have killed is something which really caught my attention. Some of the solutions applied by some games are terrible! From one game where players had to ask,"may i kill/attack you?"(this one had me in stitches) too others where PK's were running riot due to there being no consequences for thier actions at all!
What about the player which has been killed, what should happen to them? Currently games allow the killed to re-appear with everything at a set point in the game-world. Their items, their stats and health all unchanged! Come on, they just died!
As i said im just getting to know mmorpgs and am looking for peoples opinion on this area from both avid players and anyone who has one.

Phil

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Comments

  • TMcCTMcC Columbia, PAPosts: 218Member
    The best "pk situation" that I ever witnessed was old school UO. Pkers could attack anybody that was outside guarded towns and if they did kill the other player there was a free for all on looting. After 5 pks in a certain amount of time{40 hours with out another kill to put it in a short description} the players name became red and others could attack him on site without the chance of becoming grey or a criminal. What you commented on about the "may I attack you" bs is a joke and anybody that likes this game play isnt really a role player IMO. Look up Dragon Empires and Darkfall. Hopefully these games wont sell out like the other MMOS and have consensual pvp. They are promising that they arent going to......we'll have to wait and see. O and by the way Horizons sucks and so does WOW. image

    PS. When you die you should lose everything and when you are resurrected you should have one  hit point and therefore you should be able to be "rez killed" over and over again. But your actual skills should not be changed IMO.

  • DesperadoDesperado Irving, TXPosts: 467Member

    Good post Phil.  Personally I've always liked the idea of pk's being able to kill other pks anywhere, any time, w/out any worry of negative game enforced backlash.  At the same time I also believe that the game should still offer some type of aspect for those who don't want to participate in the kill or be killed aspect of pking.  (Ex: pks can only kill other pks or pks can only kill in pk designated areas).  This way the carebears... er the people who don't like pkin' can still be happy.

    I truelly believe pking should be controlled and policed only by the rules of revenge and redemption.  Going up to another pk'r and politely asking to deul should be an option, not the rule.  A land where players can kill other players should seem dangerous and fearsome.  People should get pissed off when they're ambushed or attacked out of nowhere.  Finally, yes, if I kill you or you kill me I believe the right to loot your fallen foe should be available.  To me, his defines the world of the player killer.  

    This is just my opinion and I'm very interested in hearing everyone elses.    

    "A good man knows his limits, a Great man knows he has none...."

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    "A good man knows his limits, a Great man knows he has none...."

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  • PhilPhil DublinPosts: 7Member

      I seemed to have picked the right web-site anyway! Didint expect to get a repley let alone two within a couple of hours of posting. Good stuff!!!  Ill post a longer reply later. Just wanna let the discussion develop further. Thanx and keepem comming!

     Phil

     

  • Clever_GloveClever_Glove Columbus, OHPosts: 996Member

    SB had a good start on the idea.

    Personal I think anyone that PK's you should be placed on a list in your client. And then there should be a different color on your screen. (so if you see them 8 months later you know what to do ;)

    Pkers should be auto-placed KoS on buildings you own.

    You should be able to put a bounty on any character in the game for any reason. You deposited the money the local station or bank. When someone kills that person they can collect the fee from any other bank. People that piss you off, you can keep but bounties on there heads making nearly impossible for them to log-in.

    Only allow one character per server. This would cut down on harassment alts.

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  • RavenStolRavenStol Windermere, FLPosts: 20Member

    The first game that I have played where I had to deal or the Company had to deal with PKers in UO. Some of you that have ever played the game from the very beginning may know how the first Ultima Online had problems with Pkers. In fact many times I would get in fights with them which was actually enjoyable (well unless I died of course). UO made it so good would be blue, people are were truly evil would be red and in between was grey if they attacked someone. Many times you would go into a dungeon seeing bodies laying all over the place because of some crazy pker trying to load up on items. (In UO if you died a player could loot you). Many times I killed these pkers and looted them, then you have to decide, hmm should I keep all his stuff or maybe give it back to the people I need to rez.

    Well anyway the evil people who killed many people had slow respawn, they lost there items, death points I think they were called (or is that Horizons, heh). And of course if they wanted to be good again they had to wait 8 hours or so for every person they killed (or something like that).

    Another game that comes to mind of course more recent is Dark Age of Camelot, which has more of a area where the different realms can fight each other to gain territory or relics to increase there own realms melee attacks or mana/power damage. This is more organized because there is no penatly and it is encouraged and rewarded to go out and fight for your realm. It is kind of nice change in the fact you get a choice and do not have to be worried about being killed if you don't want too.

    A lot of other online games seem to have pking, but everyone is given a choice in it. EQ is a big one where you can choose to be a pker or play only on a pking server. Since the mass of people usually don't want to pk most games are doing this now or not putting in pking at all.

    Here's the final word, pkers shouldn't be punished harshly but of course there should be some penatly and of course bigger rewards (there's a risk of course). Several vendors for pkers or evil types, a place where they hang out together. Just because your pker doesn't mean your evil however.

    image That's all for now, Raven

    "Look Ma, I have no internet"

    * I forgot ShadowBane, I really never played the game however, heard it was no good *

  • Negative71Negative71 Port Charlotte, FLPosts: 162Member

    Personally, I'd like to see code made where they're immediately ejected into Counter-Suck for killing another player. image

    Seriously, though.. I find MMOG-PvP to be such an insult to the kind of PvP I like, from Battlefield: 1942 and Tribes 2 and Ghost Recon and Firearms for Half-Life and some other places.. not much skill involved, just all about who has the best equipment.. then when I see some dork kill some other dork, (mainly in SWG, in E&B I put the people who spouted off about arena PvP on /ignore) they sit there and brag acting as if their skill in telling their 3 Rancors and an AT-ST to "A" "A" "A" somehow made them uber. I just wait for the days when the PvPers in those MMOGs annoy the rest of the population to the point where there's a general call for PvP's removal.. or at least a call for serious restriction.

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  • TMcCTMcC Columbia, PAPosts: 218Member
    The only MMOG worth playin is pvp. If i wanna kill monsters all day with my buddies Ill go get Everqueer or Horizons. Anybody tired of the no pvp or consensual pvp....I wish we could all get our own site going and try to make a go of "our" style of gameplay.

  • ChuckaChucka BrisbanePosts: 109Member

    OMG OMG OMG OMG OMFG TmC or What eva ur name is ur entitled to ur opinion but i suggest u rethink the statment "WoW sucks:", cause it doesnt and even if u dont like the game u can at least say its good cause of the grafix and all the other awesome stuff init that woulda taken solong to do.....

    and u just come along and say it sucks.... it my books UR going to hellimage

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    Cheers, Dedicated WoW Fan
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  • ianubisiianubisi Morgan Hill, CAPosts: 4,201Member


    Originally posted by TMcC
    The only MMOG worth playin is pvp. If i wanna kill monsters all day with my buddies Ill go get Everqueer or Horizons. Anybody tired of the no pvp or consensual pvp....I wish we could all get our own site going and try to make a go of "our" style of gameplay.

    You have Shadowbane, and other games by which to play "your" style of gameplay. It's not like you're lacking options here.

  • Billius8Billius8 Rockwall, TXPosts: 574Member

    Most people don't like to be PK'd.  PK'ing someone is only a brief thrill.  So one person has a brief thrill at the expense of three, for example.  This is why PK-based games have problems with subscribership.

    Incidentally, what made UO popular was not its PK, but its crafting and other skill systems.  And they changed some of the PK rules in that game because it was hurting business.  Shadowbane, a pure PK game, is hurting bad and may not last out 2004 (is my guess).  In mainstream games that allow PK, ususally this is confined to one or two servers out of a pool of 20.  Such is the small proportion of MMORPG gamers who are PK'ers.  Don't be fooled by those who say a game has to have P vs. P.  PK'ers are a small portion of the gaming population, just overly vocal is all.

     

     

     

  • RasukeRasuke Hendersonville, NCPosts: 362Member

    please note that I didn't take the time to read all of everyone's post so excuse me if I repeat anything that's been said but...

    There's a reason for consensual PvP.  It's simply because there's a GREAT number of asses out there who would abuse the ability to kill anyone.  If someone who just started walks out of town and get's killed then that's going to piss them off and they're not going to like the game.  Which means they won't want to keep playing it, which also means the company won't be getting any money.  Now I know a lot of people would say "now those wusses shouldn't be so whiney" but, the fact that you can't even do anything in a game because  you can't level up because every time you walk out of town you get slaughtered, would tick off pretty much anyone.  Also I would estimate for about every 1 person who would abuse the non-consent PvP there's prolly 5 people who would quit the game for it.  Now like I said, a GREAT number would abuse this kind of system (I have seen it myself in action many times) and this would simply make so many people not want to play the game for this.

    Now of course, the problem with this is a lot of people who support the non-consent (which I might note are usually the ones who would abuse it) would be mad if they had to ask everytime they felt like fighting someone... So what's a game to do?

    The only solution I will stand by to reccomend is that you have multiple servers, some with consent PvP, and some without.

    Of course, you could also set the game so that people below a certain level can't be PKed (IE:  Diablo 2, where you must be level 9 to become hostile or have anyone hostile against you.)

    And just in case anyone's wondering, I support consent pvp more just because I'm more of a socializer and explorer than a fighter and power leveler for games, so I don't like people being able to kick my ass at any given moment.

    -------------------------------------------
    Some people sit at think about all the wonderful things that could have been. I no longer believe in that. I believe that instead of wishing you could change what's in the past to make what could have been into what is, you should work to make sure that your future is what is, and not what could have been.

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  • ChuckaChucka BrisbanePosts: 109Member

    ya i agree wit u rasuke but instead of servers which is still a good idea i recon putting a section in every server/world where u pk so all the servers r cool. if u put it on some servers then poeple would only go to those servers if they wanna pk and there isnt that biga number of ppl to make a few servers jut to pk. so u do it on ecvery server so ppl r like im gonna pk now... and other people who dont feel like it dont have to go into the section (eg. runescape... not a egsact replica to what im talking bout but close)

     

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    Cheers, Dedicated WoW Fan
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  • RasukeRasuke Hendersonville, NCPosts: 362Member



    Originally posted by Chucka

    ya i agree wit u rasuke but instead of servers which is still a good idea i recon putting a section in every server/world where u pk so all the servers r cool. if u put it on some servers then poeple would only go to those servers if they wanna pk and there isnt that biga number of ppl to make a few servers jut to pk. so u do it on ecvery server so ppl r like im gonna pk now... and other people who dont feel like it dont have to go into the section (eg. runescape... not a egsact replica to what im talking bout but close)



    Not to say that this is a bad idea, it's great in it's own merit, but that also would mean the lower level people that like exploring *points to self* more than leveling would be limited, the thought behind MMORPGs lately has been to limit you as little as possible, or so it seems to me. (of course that would require non-consent pvp, wouldn't it? Freedom to kill right? hah)  If there were places like that they should be meant for higher levels once again, like in Runescape as you pointed out, the PvP area is far north, where the hard enemies are.  That's a good setup, but probably not quite as easy as just making two seperate servers, one for consent pk, and one for non-consent.

    -------------------------------------------
    Some people sit at think about all the wonderful things that could have been. I no longer believe in that. I believe that instead of wishing you could change what's in the past to make what could have been into what is, you should work to make sure that your future is what is, and not what could have been.

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  • CamaalisCamaalis London, ONPosts: 44Member

    My personal favourite response to this problem is old skool UO style as well.  I the idea of a karma/soul light tracker that keeps track of pkers.  If you pk too many newbs or weaker/good chars you get negative karma and can be killed or attacked by NPCs.  Ad a real rp sense to the whole pking.  I've always been a fan of RPK.  I agree that pvp should be anywhere anytime.  The karma/soul light (whatever you want to call it) system should defend those not interested in pking.  The only part I don't like is the whole being able to loot everything off of a person corpse.  I believe this causes people to not use their best equipment due to fear of griefers.  I also think that the loot then also promotes griefing.  I think a pker should be able to loot the inventory of the killed and maybe one equiped item drops at random(1 at max).  I saw people mention Darkfall and DE however no one mentioned RoT.  RoT I think will be much cooler due to the bloodlines, and with the bloodlines the faction negatives passes onto the new character (you can tell who their the offspring of).  

    ===================
    Bartle Test #234954
    SKE
    Socializer: 66 %
    Explorer: 60%
    Killer: 60%
    Achiever: 13%

  • CamaalisCamaalis London, ONPosts: 44Member



    Originally posted by Billius8

    Most people don't like to be PK'd.  PK'ing someone is only a brief thrill.  So one person has a brief thrill at the expense of three, for example.  This is why PK-based games have problems with subscribership.
    Incidentally, what made UO popular was not its PK, but its crafting and other skill systems.  And they changed some of the PK rules in that game because it was hurting business.  Shadowbane, a pure PK game, is hurting bad and may not last out 2004 (is my guess).  In mainstream games that allow PK, ususally this is confined to one or two servers out of a pool of 20.  Such is the small proportion of MMORPG gamers who are PK'ers.  Don't be fooled by those who say a game has to have P vs. P.  PK'ers are a small portion of the gaming population, just overly vocal is all.
     
     
     



    Whoa wait a minute here.. last time I checked DAoC was doing quite well for itself.  UO, during its good pvp days, was doing quite well.  The new pvp games are struggling, like SB, cause their buggy crap.

    ===================
    Bartle Test #234954
    SKE
    Socializer: 66 %
    Explorer: 60%
    Killer: 60%
    Achiever: 13%

  • PhilPhil DublinPosts: 7Member
      It looks like its gonna be a great challange to accomidate both PKs and and the people who want to be able to move about a world without fear of being slaughtered!!! I can see so far that ppl believe there should be the right to loot a persons items if they have been killed. I agree with this one totaly. Although this may not please everyone. If youve got your best items on your character and you happen to get killed by a PK, he/she gets all youre stuff. Now id pe pissed off! Very miffed!!!           But id take as being just part of the game. Now i wouldnt if it happened often or i started off again at a very basic level or point to where i was.

      Compare it to real life. People do not go around killing one another for fun or to get places in life,well most of the time anyway. The consequences are just way too high for it to be worth while. Jail/The death penalty/living life being hunted...and so on.Then the morals get involved. Morals come into it in a very small way when playing games. So unless a game can make you feel like you just took a real life, the consequences will be the only thing to prevent and discourage people from being PK's. How far would be too far?Jail the character?Make them hunted?Take away stats/items?...post youre ideas, things that have been done and even throw a few ideas in!

      The PK's who only play on-line games for the sole purpose of PKing will not be happy with the above paragraph. I dont think they would even play current mmorpgs if some of the rules above were applied. But would you(the PK's) play an mmorpg if there were many other things to do in the world???Is it that your bored with the worlds or do you not care and only play the game to kill other players..? Id like to hear from hard-core PK's on this one.

     Anyway,theres a good bit here to chew on so chew away!!!

    Phil

  • TMcCTMcC Columbia, PAPosts: 218Member
    Graphics dont mean squat to me and most hard core gamers agree. And just because WoW took so long to come out also means squat, the game sucks. Also IMO the reason that 95% of people that play pvp games dont like to be pked is cuz there lives suck so bad they cant even take a loss in a game let alone their lives. So as I said before.....all out pvp is the only way or take a hike into Everqueer or Horizons u noobies....hope u kill alot of liches today and get alot of gold while theres absolutely no chance of losin any of ur equiptment seeing theres 20 other a@@$%^% healing ur pathetic backs. I OWN YOU CHUCKA. image

  • FallenDeaconFallenDeacon El Cajon, CAPosts: 5Member

    Well I signed up JUST to reply to this post, lol...

    Here's the deal, I've played all ends of the MMO universe. The fact is you don't want to create a world that can accomodate both PKer's and non-PK's, The worlds NEED conflict. Hunting boring and repetitive without the risk of PK's. And with out non-consent PvP Griefing INCREASES in areas such as rare spawn and quests. I don't know about you but if some d00d were keeping me from having fun I'd like to be able to kill him.

    I prefer to be a PK simply because its always fun and always fast paced/challenging, it also boosts player community by forcing people to make alliances, Like the old days of UO... You always hunted with others because it was SAFER. Some of the more immature players abuse the ability to kill others, so yes there should be something done to prevent this. How about Adam Ant's (from UO) suggestion? Angel Island, If you kill someone with a High reputation or Neutral Reputation (innocent) you run a risk of being sent to an Island/Jail Players in this area must earn their freedom either by working for the better of the community (example: you must collect XX Amount of ore and XX amount of lumber for the war cause against the Orcs) or attempt to escape by paying a group of pirates for voyage on a boat. Another possibility is making the character flagged to all other players after killing X amount of innocents, This character will have NPC Bounty hunters/Guards after him as well as Players.

    However those are just a few theories... and they all have holes in them, Truth is I can't see any other solution except for players to unite and assist the new players like they did in the old days of UO.

  • aLeX666aLeX666 Quebec City, QCPosts: 153Member
    The only right way to deal with PKs without the whining process is to make items easy to acquire. Nobody would like to lose their Super Sword of U3e|2 DragonSlaying they camped for 100 hours! If you had not MUCH to lose but just enough to reward PKers and just enough to piss off the dead onea little. Of course, you had some penalities to PKing and it's all balanced.

    "I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."

  • paradymeparadyme kitchener, ONPosts: 238Member

    www.meridian59.com has the best open PvP system thats y its the only one still around left untouched.  It's also prolly the only game where the PvP servers r more populated then the PvE servers.

     

    http://www.gilcon.net/meridian/ is a great site for info on the game.  All hardcore PvPer's need to play this game its gonna own with the new graphics update and rebindable keys and mouselook.

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Quebec, QCPosts: 7,433Member

    Any MMORPG that allow PK on anyone not working on PvP stuff should be banned, period. image

     

    If all you want is to solo in your little corner and become the best soloer, nobody should be able to PK you. :)

    Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • AdrealAdreal NorwayPosts: 2,087Member
    I say have a community like old-school GemstoneIII's. You've got perma-death but clerics can raise you and you also can get points, deeds, credits, or whatever else to gain a second life for your character if you do truely die and decay. In this case PvP, as I read from someone else's post, would be intense, however there would be few that would go around PKing newbies otherwise if someone else witnessed it and rivaled them in level then they would have a problem on their hands (unless of course they just made a lvl 1 character to go out and be an idiot and try to slay as many newbies as they could before they died). A RP aspect also contributes to lowering the amount of PK activity within games if the main story line is geared toward fighting traditional AI monsters. However, I did witness quite a few fights in GS3 and in fact died from one (not permanently), but it was usually if someone stole from another or angered another in some similar way.

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  • TMcCTMcC Columbia, PAPosts: 218Member



    Originally posted by Anofalye

    Any MMORPG that allow PK on anyone not working on PvP stuff should be banned, period. image
     
    If all you want is to solo in your little corner and become the best soloer, nobody should be able to PK you. :)

    Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!



    I was gonna post about this message but i dont even think i have to. You know i mean.

  • horridhorrid PerthPosts: 129Member

    The problem I have found is you can NEVER make a panalty that would stop PKers doing it.  What they find fun in killing someone who never had a chance (otherwise its PvP and thats a different story).  You can throw them in prison, have perma death or whatever.  None mean anything to them.  They just load up another character on another account.  Perma death means nothing, it just turns it into a game of how many people can I perma kill before someone takes me out.  They would get an even bigger thrill knowing that the people they kill are perma dead.

    While playing Shadowbane there was a group of pkers who would level as a group then go out ganking everyone, they got off over killing newbies.  The best you could ever do was grab a few friends and go get revenge, problem was they didn't care if you killed them back, they expected it.  The person ganked didn't enjoy it or find it fun, they could do nothing about it.  The penalty for the pker was 0.  It didn't add a fear element, its added an anger and frustration element. 

    PKing is not PvP, its killing people who are not able to defend themselves, its a sad sorry ego boost at the expense of other people and thats just pathetic.  Real PvP can be great fun, ganking is only fun for the ganker.

    Given the downsides don't discourage pkers (and in many cases does the opposite, they want the reputation) I think the solution is to remove the unable to defend yourself factor.  No levels, no killing monsters for xp.  The entire game is PvP, kill or be killed, you no longer have PKing, you only have PvP. 

     

     

  • EnticoEntico LondonPosts: 107Member

    I wish we could all get our own site going and try to make a go of "our" style of gameplay.

    There is lots of "PK" sites on the net, realy easy to find them, I'm suprised you havent found one, obviously never tried to look for one.

    Looks like syndrom of "Only gay in the village" to me.

    ==============================
    And besides, like it or not, people do try to "win" massively multiplayer RPGs. The rules of engagement are something like this:
    * If there is a status bar, make it grow bigger
    * If there is a number, make it higher
    * If it moves, either get a mission from it or kill it

    ==============================
    And besides, like it or not, people do try to "win" massively multiplayer RPGs. The rules of engagement are something like this:
    * If there is a status bar, make it grow bigger
    * If there is a number, make it higher
    * If it moves, either get a mission from it or kill it

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