Can loot boxes be used for good? EA and others could use this idea and make loot boxes loved by all

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  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,629
    edited December 7
    It does not matter what icing you put on it, gambling should not be in gaming. If EA or their players want to donate to charity there are countless ways to do so.

    We should judge organisations according to the rules they play by, not by whether they give to charities or offset their carbon emissions. What is the organisation doing, what are their practices? And throw in a pinch of realism, we can not expect them to be non-profitmaking avatars of social justice. But we can expect them to treat their customers fairly, that has not happened here.
    Post edited by Scot on

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  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILMember RarePosts: 3,067
    Nothing is loved by all!  
    Amaranthar

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Xodic said:
    No.

    /thread

    "Good" is subjective. If i bet EA shareholders find loot boxes pretty "good". Heck, may be i should buy some EA stocks to get in on the action. 
    You mean this stock?


    Yes. It went from $14.46 in 2013 to $104.37 in 2017. 

    https://www.google.com/search?q=electronic+arts+stock+history&oq=electronic+arts+stock+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.7447j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    Wouldn't you say a great mid-term (4 years) investment?

    Sure you can look at 3 month fluctuation but i think you are not dumb enough to think that stock investment should be judged by a quarter, do you?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Scot said:
    It does not matter what icing you put on it, gambling should not be in gaming. 
    why?

    If adult gamers want gambling in their gaming .. is there a problem? Is there any different than those who went to vegas to flush their hard earned money down the toilet so that the casino shareholders can be happy?
  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,629
    Scot said:
    It does not matter what icing you put on it, gambling should not be in gaming. 
    why?

    If adult gamers want gambling in their gaming .. is there a problem? Is there any different than those who went to vegas to flush their hard earned money down the toilet so that the casino shareholders can be happy?
    They did not ask for it to be there. Do I really have to explain this?

     25 Agrees

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  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAMember UncommonPosts: 5,445
    edited December 8
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    It does not matter what icing you put on it, gambling should not be in gaming. 
    why?

    If adult gamers want gambling in their gaming .. is there a problem? Is there any different than those who went to vegas to flush their hard earned money down the toilet so that the casino shareholders can be happy?
    They did not ask for it to be there. Do I really have to explain this?

    They may not have vocalized the desire but they certainly approved the decision. They bought the loot boxes.  You're trying to make an emotional argument against a financial reality. The market decides and we are the market. It's not a case of some minute fraction of gamers buying all the loot boxes it's a plurality  with a few small purchases here and there that makes it work. 

    As for charity give to the charity of your choice don't outsource it to someone else and pretend you're virtuous. Especially while trying to ensnare other people's money in your scheme. That's not charity it's corruption. It's corrupt when governments do it. It's corrupt when corporations do it. It's corrupt when charities become wasteful fund raising conglomerates run by corporate foundations. 
    Post edited by zymurgeist on

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,629
    edited December 8
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    It does not matter what icing you put on it, gambling should not be in gaming. 
    why?

    If adult gamers want gambling in their gaming .. is there a problem? Is there any different than those who went to vegas to flush their hard earned money down the toilet so that the casino shareholders can be happy?
    They did not ask for it to be there. Do I really have to explain this?

    They may not have vocalized the desire but they certainly approved the decision. They bought the loot boxes.  You're trying to make an emotional argument against a financial reality. The market decides and we are the market. It's not a case of some minute fraction of gamers buying all the loot boxes it's a plurality  with a few small purchases here and there that makes it work. 

    As for charity give to the charity of your choice don't outsource it to someone else and pretend you're virtuous. Especially while trying to ensnare other people's money in your scheme. That's not charity it's corruption. It's corrupt when governments do it. It's corrupt when corporations do it. It's corrupt when charities become wasteful fund raising conglomerates run by corporate foundations. 

    Well we agree on charity anyway; I would not call it corrupt, but they are for us to give to, organisations are looking to make themselves seem virtuous by doing so. However if they wish to do so it is not a bad thing just not an overly virtuous one.

    It is certainly a financial reality, but this is not an emotional argument. Nari was comparing Vegas to gaming in gambling. You go to Vegas to gamble, players want to play a game and got scammed with gambling mechanisms. The fact that this has been spoken out against from the beginning to the Reddit backlash shows it is not what players want. Putting up with something is not the same as wanting it.

    This has been about gaming companies seeing what they can get away with and they have got away with it up to now and still will in some form for years to come. In fact for so many of them that is their financial strategy, lets see what we can get away with charging for.

    Game design has changed to incorporate an every-which-way charge them for whatever you can approach. From pre-order to selling "land", from cash shops to gambling; from hidden xp scaling systems to paring players to entice them to buy items. This is trying to wring every penny you can out of players. They have to make a profit per game but as I mentioned elsewhere, how much? A million, a billion, 10 billion? Enough is never enough.


    Post edited by Scot on

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  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,741
    Imagine if EA kept the loot boxes as they are...but used them for good. For every 5 dollars spent on loot boxes, they donate 1 dollar of that to charity.

    Anyone complaining of loot boxes at that pointwould be quickly shut down because most people would have no issue with money going to charity...it would in fact be a negative to be against it.

    Easy work around that would make EA loved, keep their loot boxes, still make money but also donate a lot of the money to charity.

    Could that work in other games and MMOs in general? Pay to win MMOs would then be accepted as amazing if the developers donated a percentage of the money to charity and no one could be against it without being called trolls. Its an easy problem to solve, and would make any game company loved by all. Like if Trion did this with ArcheAge, suddenly they'd have one of the most popular MMOs because so much money would be going to charity.

    Blizzard does this sometimes with their cosmetic pets, donating a portion of the funds to charity. But its only very limited times...imagine if it was constant and they always donated that money to charity. People get amazing cash shop items AND supporting charities.

    What do you guys think of this idea?
    I would still be 100% against it. 

    It's still a shit game mechanic
    It's still shit value for money for the buyer
    It's still predatory if it's attached to progression
    It's still gambling, which I am against in all forms, but especially when targeting children

    Also, this already happens. It is generally labelled as "corporate social responsibility" and companies spend a lot of money on it. For some companies, it is a genuine desire to improve the community they live and work in, but for most companies, especially the big ones, it is done as a PR thing to help improve the image of the company. 


    Most of us can see right through it though. Whilst I do care where my money is going, it is what my money is buying me that is more important. Giving a portion of my spending money to charity will not ever affect my purchasing decision. 

    (in actual fact, I'll probably think worse of the company. I don't agree with most charities and think most are run really badly so generally avoid giving to any of them. I also deeply resent the guilt trips they try force on me - fuck off! its not my fault there is a famine half way round the world! Instead, I just try to be a nicer person on a day-to-day basis and help those around me. Its far more effective). 
  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAMember UncommonPosts: 2,341
    No. And loot boxes aren't good or evil, they're a tool. How they are used can be good/evil, and most publishers enforce them in ways that are predatory. That's the issue. Loot boxes should be earned through in-game means only. Not only is that more fair, it's also far more fun. I'm so sick of games forcing me to buy things to unlock them, I miss having to WORK for it to unlock it. I miss secret characters, and super hard quests for amazing gear, etc. Now, you just buy it. It's terrible. Games have become a shell.
    Flyte27

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    It does not matter what icing you put on it, gambling should not be in gaming. 
    why?

    If adult gamers want gambling in their gaming .. is there a problem? Is there any different than those who went to vegas to flush their hard earned money down the toilet so that the casino shareholders can be happy?
    They did not ask for it to be there. Do I really have to explain this?
    If they did not reject it .. and use it .. it is the same as they want it, right?

    Isn't that you say gamers don't know what they want until it is shown to them?
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,995
    Donating part of what you gain through something immoral doesn't make it right, If someone steals nuclear secrets and sell them to some mad dictator but donates 25% of his profits to charity does not make him a good guy.

    Yeah, that is taking it rather too far but the point is valid: you don't make something bad good by donating part of the earnings and since we know EA they would trick people into buying even more lootboxes so they actually would earn more money on it.

    Making a vanity cash shop item and donating all earnings to charity is good, do that instead.
  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAMember UncommonPosts: 5,445
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    It does not matter what icing you put on it, gambling should not be in gaming. 
    why?

    If adult gamers want gambling in their gaming .. is there a problem? Is there any different than those who went to vegas to flush their hard earned money down the toilet so that the casino shareholders can be happy?
    They did not ask for it to be there. Do I really have to explain this?

    They may not have vocalized the desire but they certainly approved the decision. They bought the loot boxes.  You're trying to make an emotional argument against a financial reality. The market decides and we are the market. It's not a case of some minute fraction of gamers buying all the loot boxes it's a plurality  with a few small purchases here and there that makes it work. 

    As for charity give to the charity of your choice don't outsource it to someone else and pretend you're virtuous. Especially while trying to ensnare other people's money in your scheme. That's not charity it's corruption. It's corrupt when governments do it. It's corrupt when corporations do it. It's corrupt when charities become wasteful fund raising conglomerates run by corporate foundations. 

    Well we agree on charity anyway; I would not call it corrupt, but they are for us to give to, organisations are looking to make themselves seem virtuous by doing so. However if they wish to do so it is not a bad thing just not an overly virtuous one.

    It is certainly a financial reality, but this is not an emotional argument. Nari was comparing Vegas to gaming in gambling. You go to Vegas to gamble, players want to play a game and got scammed with gambling mechanisms. The fact that this has been spoken out against from the beginning to the Reddit backlash shows it is not what players want. Putting up with something is not the same as wanting it.

    This has been about gaming companies seeing what they can get away with and they have got away with it up to now and still will in some form for years to come. In fact for so many of them that is their financial strategy, lets see what we can get away with charging for.

    Game design has changed to incorporate an every-which-way charge them for whatever you can approach. From pre-order to selling "land", from cash shops to gambling; from hidden xp scaling systems to paring players to entice them to buy items. This is trying to wring every penny you can out of players. They have to make a profit per game but as I mentioned elsewhere, how much? A million, a billion, 10 billion? Enough is never enough.



    Purchase is explicit approval. Both in Vegas and with loot boxes. Reddit can speak out against anything, and does, but if it can't back it up with logic and evidence it's just opinion.  All voluntary transactions are about seeing what you can get away with. More properly all voluntary transactions are about seeing what is agreeable to all parties. Unless there is a misrepresentation of fact, if all parties have informed consent, and there is no demonstrable violation of the public interest it's a valid transaction. If artists can sell a painting that looks like a ketchup smear for fifty million dollars who's to say when enough is enough for a gaming company? The market decides. I don't buy that gamers are just too stupid to take care of themselves and the government needs to step in. 

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Loke666 said:
    Donating part of what you gain through something immoral doesn't make it right.

    Are you the authority of what is "right"? There is a reason why we have a legal system, and elected representative to write/change the laws.

    Homosexuality was deemed "wrong" about 100 years ago .. i am sure that is not the feeling of society now. 

    So morality changes. All that matters is consequences. So again, if some dude want to flush their money down the toilet, i say let them .. as long as I am a choice of not doing the same.

    Gambling is legal.

    Booze is legal.

    Now pot is legal. 

    It is really about how most people feel about it ... not some arbitrary right or wrong in your head. 
  • WellspringWellspring Charlotte, NCMember RarePosts: 483
    Loke666 said:
    Donating part of what you gain through something immoral doesn't make it right.

    Are you the authority of what is "right"? There is a reason why we have a legal system, and elected representative to write/change the laws.

    Homosexuality was deemed "wrong" about 100 years ago .. i am sure that is not the feeling of society now. 

    So morality changes. All that matters is consequences. So again, if some dude want to flush their money down the toilet, i say let them .. as long as I am a choice of not doing the same.

    Gambling is legal.

    Booze is legal.

    Now pot is legal. 

    It is really about how most people feel about it ... not some arbitrary right or wrong in your head. 
    Just because it's legal, doesn't make it right.

    And as is evident with the Net Neutrality vote coming up, the law isn't based off of "how most people feel about it". 
    --------------------------------------------
  • chronoss2015chronoss2015 peterborough, ONMember UncommonPosts: 195
    NEVER
    unless its a not for profit that gives all profit to charity ...NO NEVER and ill add in this case everything should be 100% transparent including the rng or drop rates and what...


  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,262
    People get amazing cash shop items...
    I'd rather have amazing games. Fuck the cash shop items.
    You say you never compromise
    With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
    He's not selling any alibis
    As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
    And say "Do you want to make a deal?"
  • IceAgeIceAge SomeWhere In .. RomaniaMember RarePosts: 1,694
    Imagine if EA kept the loot boxes as they are...but used them for good. For every 5 dollars spent on loot boxes, they donate 1 dollar of that to charity.

    Anyone complaining of loot boxes at that pointwould be quickly shut down because most people would have no issue with money going to charity...it would in fact be a negative to be against it.

    Easy work around that would make EA loved, keep their loot boxes, still make money but also donate a lot of the money to charity.

    Could that work in other games and MMOs in general? Pay to win MMOs would then be accepted as amazing if the developers donated a percentage of the money to charity and no one could be against it without being called trolls. Its an easy problem to solve, and would make any game company loved by all. Like if Trion did this with ArcheAge, suddenly they'd have one of the most popular MMOs because so much money would be going to charity.

    Blizzard does this sometimes with their cosmetic pets, donating a portion of the funds to charity. But its only very limited times...imagine if it was constant and they always donated that money to charity. People get amazing cash shop items AND supporting charities.

    What do you guys think of this idea?
    Wow this guys :))

    I mean sure. Let us allow illegal gambling , if the said company is ... donating some money, and then call it legit. 

    It's like this guy is stealing from a bank , donating 10% and then, we all shall see him as 'Robin Hood' , right ?

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Loke666 said:
    Donating part of what you gain through something immoral doesn't make it right.

    Are you the authority of what is "right"? There is a reason why we have a legal system, and elected representative to write/change the laws.

    Homosexuality was deemed "wrong" about 100 years ago .. i am sure that is not the feeling of society now. 

    So morality changes. All that matters is consequences. So again, if some dude want to flush their money down the toilet, i say let them .. as long as I am a choice of not doing the same.

    Gambling is legal.

    Booze is legal.

    Now pot is legal. 

    It is really about how most people feel about it ... not some arbitrary right or wrong in your head. 
    Just because it's legal, doesn't make it right.

    And as is evident with the Net Neutrality vote coming up, the law isn't based off of "how most people feel about it". 

    and if it's legal, it does not make it wrong either. The point is there is no absolute right or wrong.

    And that is why i disagree with the net neutrality vote. But you can't say that the legalization of pot is not what most people want (cause it passes proposition votes in many states).

    As long as most people think loot boxes are ok and they are legal, what is the problem? Except you don't like it?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    IceAge said:


    I mean sure. Let us allow illegal gambling 
    That is an oxymoron. If the law allows it, it is not illegal.
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