This is part of the reason loot boxes will never go away

TillerTiller Member RarePosts: 6,234
edited December 6 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM




Big money maker, and people seem to have no issue with getting 90% of the crap they don't want, just to get the one item they do want. I would rather just buy the item outright then subject myself to a game of chance. To each his own I guess but I really feel like we on the verge of this getting even more out of control, and many folks don't seem to mind it.

Keep in mind in GW2 you can can do the gold conversion which works out to be around 2300 gold in this case, but someone had to purchase that 9000 gems with cash at some point. I can now see why more and more companies have moved away from the sub based model. This seems way more lucrative. Back in the day that would buy you a years worth of gaming to a subscription based game.  Can't say I see an increase in quality on the flip side either. They still charge you for expansions either way. 





Post edited by Tiller on
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Comments

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    completely depends on the game you are playing.

    if you are playing a game that is targeted toward the young and highly impressionable adults then yeah.

    otherwise you have options :)

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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,266
    There's a difference between paying for skins and dyes versus paying for a loot box with random rewards that CAN affect game play. I'm sure most people don't care about cosmetics, even if they were in a loot box. It's the crap that equates to P2W like what SW Battlefront 2 has that is the problem.
    RexKushmanLoke666

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    Rhoklaw said:
    There's a difference between paying for skins and dyes versus paying for a loot box with random rewards that CAN affect game play. I'm sure most people don't care about cosmetics, even if they were in a loot box. It's the crap that equates to P2W like what SW Battlefront 2 has that is the problem.
    true BUT..

    doesnt one have to kinda sorta admit that Battlefront even without the lootboxes is a bit of scam of sorts anyway...I mean there really isnt anything we havent seen before so why act like its the second coming of christ?

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  • TillerTiller Member RarePosts: 6,234
    Rhoklaw said:
    There's a difference between paying for skins and dyes versus paying for a loot box with random rewards that CAN affect game play. I'm sure most people don't care about cosmetics, even if they were in a loot box. It's the crap that equates to P2W like what SW Battlefront 2 has that is the problem.
    I hear you on BF2, though cosmetics are part of the problem in my opinion. I just wish we could be back to simpler times when you bought a game, paid a subscription fee and you knew you had access to everything the game had to offer and that was it. In 10 years I imagine people will be paying $1000 just to customize their own avatar beyond the default model.
    Rhoklaw





  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    Tiller said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    There's a difference between paying for skins and dyes versus paying for a loot box with random rewards that CAN affect game play. I'm sure most people don't care about cosmetics, even if they were in a loot box. It's the crap that equates to P2W like what SW Battlefront 2 has that is the problem.
    I hear you on BF2, though cosmetics are part of the problem in my opinion. I just wish we could be back to simpler times when you bought a game, paid a subscription fee and you knew you had access to everything the game had to offer and that was it. In 10 years I imagine people will be paying $1000 just to customize their own avatar beyond the default model.
    those days are gone.

    however good games are not gone, they are just not in the MMO space.
    Its best to just accept it, find a clan and play some of these private server type games.
    RexKushmanThupli

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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,737
    edited December 6
    Most people aren't calling for the removal of all loot boxes.  just progression based loot boxes.  i.e. pay for power.

    I support cosmetic only loot boxes
    Post edited by FrodoFragins on
    k61977Nithir
  • roalandroaland Findlay, OHMember UncommonPosts: 180
    I always like to point out EQ1 days as an example. Loot from mobs didn't look nearly as good as something that dropped from a raid or a quest line or that rare piece of armor that just dropped because it had like a 0.0003% chance and you got lucky. It looked so much better then other gear and had better colors then the crap gear. It made you stand out and it made others want the same gear. I saw no reason to leave that behind and go to these dumbass lootboxes and coins for dyes and shit. sucks the fun right out of the game. why farm mobs and join a group or join a raid when you can spend $$$ and get cool looking shit without doing anything for it.

    "Oh well I got coins left over after i bought every cosmetic item in the store so I'll buy some exp pots, hmm need a few more coins...MOM can I use your CC again? its just $10!"

    /facepalm* :'(  oh the good old days.....
    ThupliRhoklaw
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,659
    Tiller said:

    I hear you on BF2, though cosmetics are part of the problem in my opinion. I just wish we could be back to simpler times when you bought a game, paid a subscription fee and you knew you had access to everything the game had to offer and that was it. In 10 years I imagine people will be paying $1000 just to customize their own avatar beyond the default model.

    So? Why is it a problem if some whales want to pour $1000 down the drain buying virtual clothing. It is not like you are forced to buy anything.

    And if some whales pay through the roof for some virtual stuff, and i got my game subsidized ... so much the better. 
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 21,002
    While GW2s random mount skins is annoying comparing them to the new loot boxes seems a bit unfair. For one thing can't you get the same skin twice, secondly do they have zero impact on the game and thirdly are they all pretty bland.

    If that was the worst we got we should be happy but it isn't. There are plenty of games selling lootboxes that actually matters.

    However: Forever is a long time. While it is hard to close Pandoras box once it is opened there is the chance that the customers eventually tire of all the crap and stop buying games like that. Right now some but far from enough people are doing that but 5-10 years in the future that might very well change.

    As long as it is profitable (and legal) to sell lootboxes many companies will. If it sells so many fewer games that actually skipping them will earn you more they will be gone.

    I think they eventually will disappear but that make take a long time.
    natpick
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,659
    Loke666 said:

    I think they eventually will disappear but that make take a long time.
    Why? I doubt the whales are going anywhere. And lootbox is a good way to fleece them. 
  • btdtbtdt Member UncommonPosts: 151
    Tiller said:




    Big money maker, and people seem to have no issue with getting 90% of the crap they don't want, just to get the one item they do want. I would rather just buy the item outright then subject myself to a game of chance. To each his own I guess but I really feel like we on the verge of this getting even more out of control, and many folks don't seem to mind it.

    Keep in mind in GW2 you can can do the gold conversion which works out to be around 2300 gold in this case, but someone had to purchase that 9000 gems with cash at some point. I can now see why more and more companies have moved away from the sub based model. This seems way more lucrative. Back in the day that would buy you a years worth of gaming to a subscription based game.  Can't say I see an increase in quality on the flip side either. They still charge you for expansions either way. 
    Game companies have moved away from the subscription model because players don't actually live, breathe, and die for a single game anymore.  They have 4-5 games that they hop in and out of.  If you're not playing game X, why pay a subscription for it?  Players more inclined to do an impulse purchase than commit to anything for any length of time.  Hence the success of loot boxes and the like... spend less time actually playing yet still acquire the things you would have had you actually played the game endlessly.

    WoW wouldn't be subscription based if it started today, it only gets away with that model because it's been using it for so long and the players have a long time invested in the game.  Compare that to say Rift or any one of the other ones and you have about zero time invested in those by comparison, so you're more apt to drop the game if you had to keep paying in order to play.

    Reality is, none of these games have any real staying power over the long haul... just short spurts here and there.
  • roalandroaland Findlay, OHMember UncommonPosts: 180
    btdt said:



    Reality is, none of these games have any real staying power over the long haul... just short spurts here and there.
    the reason they don't have any staying power is because they put more time into setting up the damn store then they do the gameplay. People play 4-5 games because not a single one of them has enough actual gameplay to scratch that preverbal gaming itch. Instead they give us a bunch of shit games people play for 6 months to a year of total gameplay before moving on to the next round of releases. The problem we have now is they have released nothing but shit for games this year and people are sick of playing the same boring shit because they've had every game on the market installed and uninstalled from their comp 2 or 3 times by now.

    Pantheon, Star CItizen, Chronicles of Elyria and the like, while as of now some have a store because the big companies are still trying to sell us shit games while these people are small groups of devs or privately funded dev groups trying to push out actual games instead of the same old tired store F2P shit some of us are just sick as shit of....oyi....don't mean to rant at ya btdt lol just releasing some tension lol
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,659
    roaland said:

    People play 4-5 games because not a single one of them has enough actual gameplay to scratch that preverbal gaming itch. 
    Nah .. there are tons of games I have not finished on my steam account. I don't jump around because games are short. I jump around because .. let's face it .. there is so much varieties and there is no reasons not to have some fun with them. 
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW New York, NYMember UncommonPosts: 503
    I dont' think many people have problem with GW2 cash shop anyway.  The problem isn't the loot box but how invasive the loot box is.


  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 21,002
    btdt said:
    Game companies have moved away from the subscription model because players don't actually live, breathe, and die for a single game anymore.  They have 4-5 games that they hop in and out of.  If you're not playing game X, why pay a subscription for it?  Players more inclined to do an impulse purchase than commit to anything for any length of time.  Hence the success of loot boxes and the like... spend less time actually playing yet still acquire the things you would have had you actually played the game endlessly.

    WoW wouldn't be subscription based if it started today, it only gets away with that model because it's been using it for so long and the players have a long time invested in the game.  Compare that to say Rift or any one of the other ones and you have about zero time invested in those by comparison, so you're more apt to drop the game if you had to keep paying in order to play.

    Reality is, none of these games have any real staying power over the long haul... just short spurts here and there.
    And why does people not play a single game anymore? I doubt it is fear of commitment that really is the problem there.

    Modern MMOs are made so you max out your character in 2-3 weeks and only have to collect raid gear after that, there is no way you could spend as much time in them as Wow 2005 or EQ 1999, you will have so much less to do that only the superfans stay for more then a couple of months.

    If you want to make a game people play for years instead for a month after each expansion you need to make playing long term fun again. The problem as I see it is that most devs want a quick profit, that you actually make more money long term with the old model matters little since most Ceos are gone long before the development time + 10 years are gone anyways so they rather have 300 mils 6 months after release then 100 mil each year for 10 years.

    Short term fun is important too hook players but it is long term fun take actually made the genre a hit from the beginning and the lack of it is bleeding the genre rather badly. There were a lot of crap with the old P2P model as well, many games had rather bad and boring timesinks to keep the players busy but wee need a middle thing between EQ 1999 and todays game. Funny enough did Wow hit rather well there in 2004 but as soon as it started with expansions it started to loose that balance.
    esc-joconnorBruceYeeKyleran
  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor TokyoMember UncommonPosts: 517
    Loke666 said:

    If you want to make a game people play for years instead for a month after each expansion you need to make playing long term fun again. The problem as I see it is that most devs want a quick profit, that you actually make more money long term with the old model matters little since most Ceos are gone long before the development time + 10 years are gone anyways so they rather have 300 mils 6 months after release then 100 mil each year for 10 years.

    Short term fun is important too hook players but it is long term fun take actually made the genre a hit from the beginning and the lack of it is bleeding the genre rather badly. There were a lot of crap with the old P2P model as well, many games had rather bad and boring timesinks to keep the players busy but wee need a middle thing between EQ 1999 and todays game. Funny enough did Wow hit rather well there in 2004 but as soon as it started with expansions it started to loose that balance.
    That is exactly the idea I'm trying to sell. I think a quality game made well can get those loyal players in with their wallets long term.
    BruceYeeLoke666
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,431
    Tiller said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    There's a difference between paying for skins and dyes versus paying for a loot box with random rewards that CAN affect game play. I'm sure most people don't care about cosmetics, even if they were in a loot box. It's the crap that equates to P2W like what SW Battlefront 2 has that is the problem.
    I hear you on BF2, though cosmetics are part of the problem in my opinion. I just wish we could be back to simpler times when you bought a game, paid a subscription fee and you knew you had access to everything the game had to offer and that was it. In 10 years I imagine people will be paying $1000 just to customize their own avatar beyond the default model.
    Yes but in 10 years that P2P game would have cost you over $1800 in sub fees and that isnt counting expansions or downloadable content......
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,086
    Tiller said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    There's a difference between paying for skins and dyes versus paying for a loot box with random rewards that CAN affect game play. I'm sure most people don't care about cosmetics, even if they were in a loot box. It's the crap that equates to P2W like what SW Battlefront 2 has that is the problem.
    I hear you on BF2, though cosmetics are part of the problem in my opinion. I just wish we could be back to simpler times when you bought a game, paid a subscription fee and you knew you had access to everything the game had to offer and that was it. In 10 years I imagine people will be paying $1000 just to customize their own avatar beyond the default model.
    Yes but in 10 years that P2P game would have cost you over $1800 in sub fees and that isnt counting expansions or downloadable content......
    10 years of entertainment for $1800 by today's standards is a great deal.
  • anemoanemo Member UncommonPosts: 1,239
    Someday well have raid/story resets in loot boxes, that hardcore guilds will want their members to have.  That feeds into raids that have loot boxes for their raid level crafting materials.   That feeds into gear that have "random" stats.  All while controlled by an AI that modifies the odds of every step of the process based on your activity,  your guild, Facebook status, LinkedIn status,  and time of year.
    Thupli

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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTMember RarePosts: 4,177
    I never thought I would be done with gaming, but I'm getting there.  Between progressively cutting down on violence and sex in games, making female characters that are rather dull to me, and making everything in the games revolve around selling virtual items I'm pretty much done.  Once single player games become completely dull and start selling virtual items as you progress through the game I'm out.  There is nothing I can really do about it as people keep paying money.  I haven't paid for an MMO in ages.  I've only supported the single player games I enjoyed like the Mass Effect, Dark Souls, and Witcher series.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member UncommonPosts: 492
    Tiller said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    There's a difference between paying for skins and dyes versus paying for a loot box with random rewards that CAN affect game play. I'm sure most people don't care about cosmetics, even if they were in a loot box. It's the crap that equates to P2W like what SW Battlefront 2 has that is the problem.
    I hear you on BF2, though cosmetics are part of the problem in my opinion. I just wish we could be back to simpler times when you bought a game, paid a subscription fee and you knew you had access to everything the game had to offer and that was it. In 10 years I imagine people will be paying $1000 just to customize their own avatar beyond the default model.

    Because Subsscription games die when forums like this don't like it...  People see a price tag and balk unless the game has gotten glowing reviews from practically everyone.

    With a F2P game, the developer can lull players in with a $0 price tag, then lock them in via their own progression or time investment...  At that point, they can ramp up their monetization aggressiveness by introducing more and more things that competitive players want via the store.

    This is basically what NCSoft did when Lineage II went "Truly Free."

    I think people are confusing things a bit.

    The goal of these game companies is to make the most amount of money possible.  That's their priority, and they will develop suitable business models to make this happen.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member UncommonPosts: 492
    Flyte27 said:
    I never thought I would be done with gaming, but I'm getting there.  Between progressively cutting down on violence and sex in games, making female characters that are rather dull to me, and making everything in the games revolve around selling virtual items I'm pretty much done.  Once single player games become completely dull and start selling virtual items as you progress through the game I'm out.  There is nothing I can really do about it as people keep paying money.  I haven't paid for an MMO in ages.  I've only supported the single player games I enjoyed like the Mass Effect, Dark Souls, and Witcher series.

    Expansion Packs (always available on Day One, cause they intentionally don't finish the game to make sure you have to pay more for the other parts).

    Tons of  weapons, cosmetics, skins, etc. in cash shops.

    Single Player Games are already there - particularly RPGs and Shooter-type games.

    ARPGs are there as well - Path of Exile charges you for stash tabs.

    What MMORPG doesn't charge you for character slots, these days.

    The sad thing is that MMORPGs tend to have the worst F2P models - so restrictive, that they're more of a deterrent than an attraction; though some are changing this.  Age of Conan's gold limit for Free Accounts comes to mind.  I think even EQ2 is veering towards F2P at this point.  I know I quit playing once they started chopping up content and putting it in the store (Age of Discovery), and never looked back.

    Just let me buy the game, pay my subscription, and buy the expansions when they release... TYVM.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,659
    BruceYee said:

    10 years of entertainment for $1800 by today's standards is a great deal.
    But $0 will be a BETTER deal.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,659
    Darksworm said:


    The sad thing is that MMORPGs tend to have the worst F2P models - so restrictive, that they're more of a deterrent than an attraction; though some are changing this.  
    nah .. there are plenty of games that are fun (to me) free. Warframe. The now defunct marvel heroes. Star Control for may be an hour.

    I think our problem is you "need" everything. Think of it this way, if i only get a level of a single player game for free, that is some free entertainment i would not otherwise have. So why complain?

    Just enjoy the free part and move on. 
  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILMember UncommonPosts: 2,393
    edited December 8
    The reason it won't go away is because the publishers can earn 10 times the money for 10% of the work designing new stuff, simply by giving you a 1 in 100 chance of winning it in a loot raffle, rather than offering it up for purchase outright.
    Post edited by Beatnik59 on

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