Condition Based Abilities

EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,123
I always found it fun to have a creative discussion in regards to class design. As a class designer I typically am always conjuring up interesting ways for class mechanics for any class. (In a general sense, not typically for the sake of wow). I came up with an interesting approach for Conditioned Based Abilities. I'll give a very on the surface description of it and would like your feedback if you believe this could be fun for a potential sub mechanic or a primary mechanic for a class?

The idea of Conditioned Based Abilities came to life from the idea to have a risk vs reward factor for combat. As we look at possible different roles of classes for this combat element, to me, it doesn't make sense for tanks or dps classes to have such a mechanic. In my opinion after pondering on this for quite sometime these Condition Based Abilities would work best for a Support Class. Personally, a class that could Heal and Buff respectively and efficiently. 

What aspect of this "healer/buffer class" should the Conditioned Based Abilities be used for? I think this could make for an interesting approach their buffing role. That way, the entirety of the class isn't based off chance. 

Let's get into the meat of what a Condition Ability might be like and how it would work mechanically. 

Essentially, this class would place this buff on another player. If the player meets a certain condition in the allotted time then they gain access to a powerful buff. 

Here is an example of some potential Conditioned Based Ability. Please note that I am expressing this idea and abilities a very simple form for comprehension and the numbers are simply placeholders.

Apocalypse - If the player critically hits within 7 seconds, then they gain access to "End of Days (increases damage dealt by 35% for 15 seconds)."

Divine Blessing - If the player takes 10% total damage within 7 seconds they gain access too "Divine Hope (for the next 15 seconds the player will mitigate 25% total damage done). 

Rumination - If the player exhausts 10% of their total mana within 7 seconds they gain access to "Mana Well (heals 10% of their mana and then for the next 15 seconds, the mana cost is reduced by 50% on all abilities). 

Let's create more depth for this. 

Let's say this healer/buffer class has access to Prediction Points that can only be used on these Condition Based Abilities. The player can use a Prediction Point to increase the risk vs. reward factor for any Condition Based Ability. Every time this class casts a Condition Based Ability then they use 1 Prediction Point. 3 Prediction Points total. After the player uses all 3 Prediction Points then all Condition Based Abilities go on cooldown. Example Below. 

Apocalypse - If the player critically hits within 7 seconds, then they gain access to "End of Days (increases damage dealt by 35% for 15 seconds)."
1 Prediction Point = Baseline (Above modifiers)
2 Prediction Points = Player has to critically hit twice within 7 seconds to gain a 45% damage buff for 15 seconds
3 Prediction Points = Player has to critically hit three times within 7 seconds to gain a 55% damage buff for 15 seconds.

The same flow would work the same for the other two abilities. The idea is that this class can choose to put all of their Prediction Points in 1 Condition Based Ability, spread each Prediction Point to each Ability or even put 2 Prediction Points in one ability and the last Prediction point in another. Players can freely choose what buffs may be needed on 1 player or several players given situational gameplay.

This potential mechanic could have synergy with other classes that have self buffs to increase their chance to meet a certain condition for a nice buff. 

Thoughts? Do you like the idea of Condition Based Abilities for a sub set for thematic core mechanics for a class?
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Comments

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,131
    LotRO, rune-keeper, Do Not Fall This Day. Puts on a fellowship member, and if s/he is defeated ("condition triggers") will get revived automatically.
    Eronakis said:
    This potential mechanic could have synergy with other classes that have self buffs to increase their chance to meet a certain condition for a nice buff.
    Also LotRO, mini's Song of Aid, for each targeted class in the fellowship it does something different, gives to a (more or less) signature or frequently used skill or state or condition to trigger. (i.e. for song-receiving hunters gives parry response since some of their better skills needs a parry to use, for guardians it gives block response for the same reason, etc.)
    Eronakis
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Cambridge, MAMember UncommonPosts: 1,051
    Seems like an interesting idea. Would be cool to see how it works out. 

    Cryomatrix
    Eronakis
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 1,730
    I've already stated elsewhere that I'm interested in shapeshifts, which function like stances in allowing the player to set a condition which affects their abilities.  I also like the idea of class combinations in Runes of Magic, though I was really frustrated that abilities from your non-primary class were often disabled.  I also like giving the players a new ability limited to a certain location or minigame, whether for something like fishing or pet battling or mount racing, or for a special dungeon or quest.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,659
    This is not new. This is just proc-abilities based on some conditions. Diablo 3 has tons of those. 

    Now I am not saying this is bad .. just not new.
  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,745
    I'm not against such ideas, you are just going to have to be very careful on how you can trigger the conditions. If the trigger is controllable by the player then it's not too bad, but if the trigger relies on RNG (like your crit example) then it could become a frustrating mechanic and not worth the power/mana/energy. 

    My preference for general division of skills:

    Solo
    Solo Situational
    Group
    Group Situational

    So, your solo skills are pretty obvious - can always be used by you and always work. These types of skills are what would form your basic rotation. I am a fan of keeping the number of solo skills fairly low (5-10) because they will, ultimately, just be part of a rotation and it doesn't add much to the game/difficulty if rotations are long. 

    Solo situational are things like health pots, defensive buffs etc. Only useful under certain circumstances. This is where you need to start adding decent cooldowns or heavy resource costs - using these skills should require some thought and have a meaningful effect on the game. Mistime one of these skills and it could spell disaster (this is how you add depth). 

    Group+sit basically the same, but only useful in group situations. Examples of group skills would be health buffs, speed buffs, taunts, enemy debuffs etc. Examples of group situationals would be rezzes, bubbles etc. 



    This sort of setup results in a combat system where players have to actually think about what they're doing.
  • skadadskadad VMember UncommonPosts: 213
    Po_gg said:
    LotRO, rune-keeper, Do Not Fall This Day. Puts on a fellowship member, and if s/he is defeated ("condition triggers") will get revived automatically.
    Eronakis said:
    This potential mechanic could have synergy with other classes that have self buffs to increase their chance to meet a certain condition for a nice buff.
    Also LotRO, mini's Song of Aid, for each targeted class in the fellowship it does something different, gives to a (more or less) signature or frequently used skill or state or condition to trigger. (i.e. for song-receiving hunters gives parry response since some of their better skills needs a parry to use, for guardians it gives block response for the same reason, etc.)
    eq2 raiding was based on abilities like these a few expansions, ie death-blocks :P
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,530
    The issue with going heavy into condition based abilities is skill bloat which makes combat more about juggling with your fingers and a distraction on what happens on the screen.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,280
    Shaigh said:
    The issue with going heavy into condition based abilities is skill bloat which makes combat more about juggling with your fingers and a distraction on what happens on the screen.

    Besides this very important part, I'd so love conditional abilities. While modern abilities are good enough and often do a variety of things, conditionals would be awesome.

    With that said, the worst system I ever saw was Warhammer Online's. Most of skills were just do X and perhaps do Y while you're at it. Very lazy and uninspired.
  • anemoanemo Member UncommonPosts: 1,239
    This is one of the most important aspects of any IronRealms game.  Essentially the game is set up to where the way you normally win is locking your enemy out of the ability to heal status conditions.   Which means that at high level play fights are at a standstill until someone makes a mistake,  or there is a hole found in their strategy. 

    It's fun, but so complex that PvP ends up being closer to an AI contest rather than a player one.   And makes PvE a knowledge check that you know how to heal the dished out conditions (though in my opinion it plays a little better than twitch and muscle memory checks and provides more RPG options).

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 1,730

    So, your solo skills are pretty obvious - can always be used by you and always work. These types of skills are what would form your basic rotation. I am a fan of keeping the number of solo skills fairly low (5-10) because they will, ultimately, just be part of a rotation and it doesn't add much to the game/difficulty if rotations are long. 

    Solo situational are things like health pots, defensive buffs etc. Only useful under certain circumstances. This is where you need to start adding decent cooldowns or heavy resource costs - using these skills should require some thought and have a meaningful effect on the game. Mistime one of these skills and it could spell disaster (this is how you add depth). 

    My favorite solo situational skills are where monsters have different elemental weaknesses or debuff weaknesses, so you have to choose debuffs and attacks, or perhaps summons, of the type that will be effective.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • laxielaxie UK - Leamington SpaMember RarePosts: 903
    This is quite common with healer archetypes, in the form of death prevention. EQ2 had death prevention. It's also incredibly popular in MOBAs (League of Legends, Dota), due to the counter-play.

    The way this works is you give a player a prevention buff. If their health reaches 0 within a certain window, they get a large heal instead. If their health stays above 0, nothing happens. This is interesting in PvP, where the enemy can play around this, intentionally keeping the player with the buff alive.

    On a similar note, Everquest 2 had the Heroic Opportunity system. Each skill you had was associated with a symbol (e.g. chalice, ankh or bow). Some classes lacked specific symbols (chalice would be on healer skills, fire symbol would be on mage skills). A player could then use the Heroic Opportunity skill, which would begin a sequence. If the group then used abilities in a specific order ( ankh -> arrow -> fire), it would trigger a specific buff.

    This tries to reward variation and break up the ability loop, which is a common issue with WoW-style games. The one flaw is the fact that without voice communication, it's extremely difficult to coordinate - you may trigger a Heroic Opportunity, but your group mate is in the middle of an ability sequence that they just complete spontaneously.
    Eronakis
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