MMORPG.com : General : Hawaii's Chris Lee: 'Step Up' to Changing Predatory Gaming Practices

SystemSystem Member UncommonPosts: 1,715
edited December 6 in Videos Discussion

imageMMORPG.com : General : Hawaii's Chris Lee: 'Step Up' to Changing Predatory Gaming Practices

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timxfiedler
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  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,649
    I have not had a chance to read the template, but he seems to be spot on with the term "gambling mechanisms". By making this illegal for those who are under 21, gaming companies will sit up and take notice. No doubt they will fight this, I understand EA earns billions just from FIFA using gambling mechanisms.

    Early days, but some hope for those who consider gambling in gaming as a shameful aberration from gaming ethos.
    Slapshot1188timxfiedlerCoolitHeraseGobstopper3DGdemamiYashaXCazrielRaven322Rhoklawand 1 other.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,527

    Scot said:

    I have not had a chance to read the template, but he seems to be spot on with the term "gambling mechanisms". By making this illegal for those who are under 21, gaming companies will sit up and take notice. No doubt they will fight this, I understand EA earns billions just from FIFA using gambling mechanisms.



    Early days, but some hope for those who consider gambling in gaming as a shameful aberration from gaming ethos.



    Yeah I'll have to watch the video but there are just a few things I'd ask for:

    1. Full disclosure at purchase of the true cost of all content in the game and whether it includes gambling to access it.
    2. Posted odds for all lootbox gambling

    Then people can make informed decisions.

    CoolitGdemamiYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SMember UncommonPosts: 1,434
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most
    YashaX

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,649
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.

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  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDMember RarePosts: 3,722
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    If they were worried about the kids they would work to ban them from the bigger addiction of the internet, gaming, and social media.
    YashaX
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?
    YashaX

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,411
    edited December 6
    I am personally for this because I am sick of companies like Nexon and other game companies making games with loot boxes plus pay 2 enjoy which means things like cosmetics, storage and character customizations not only cost for the costume but also cost for each edit of a character skin, clothing color changes.
    Post edited by Renoaku on
  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,649
    edited December 7
    SEANMCAD said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?

    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 

    Post edited by Scot on
    Gdemami

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,888
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?

    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 



    Cool link, thanks, but I don't think it's as relevant as you think it is, since it's dealing with ACTUAL gambling. However, there is lots of interesting information in it. For one, the percentage of problem gamblers is 0.4% which aligns pretty closely with what it is for adults. They also identified that 1.2% are considered "at risk". So this study actually supports pretty much what people have said all along, that this really isn't a problem. Sure, publish odds or something like that, but as far as gambling mechanics go, there are 99 problems and games ain't one. Considering that 75% of these kids were apparently exposed to gambling advertising via television on a weekly basis, and there's no legislation against that? Gaming is the molehill that's been made into a mountain. Just read the report. If you can't pick out 5 issues that are considerably larger issues (like 16 year-olds being legally able to gamble) then your perspective is obviously skewed. 
    GdemamiTorvalConstantineMerus

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,649
    CrazKanuk said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?

    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 



    Cool link, thanks, but I don't think it's as relevant as you think it is, since it's dealing with ACTUAL gambling. However, there is lots of interesting information in it. For one, the percentage of problem gamblers is 0.4% which aligns pretty closely with what it is for adults. They also identified that 1.2% are considered "at risk". So this study actually supports pretty much what people have said all along, that this really isn't a problem. Sure, publish odds or something like that, but as far as gambling mechanics go, there are 99 problems and games ain't one. Considering that 75% of these kids were apparently exposed to gambling advertising via television on a weekly basis, and there's no legislation against that? Gaming is the molehill that's been made into a mountain. Just read the report. If you can't pick out 5 issues that are considerably larger issues (like 16 year-olds being legally able to gamble) then your perspective is obviously skewed. 
    Indeed it is deals with actual gambling. I think the like of paid for loot boxes are just that, it seems others are now waking up to that fact. That's why you don't have loads of studies on gambling in gaming, it has gone under the radar.

    How many children need to be at risk before this is an issue for you? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000? It is an issue for kids, that's good enough for me. The other gambling you mentioned on TV does not involve them actually betting money.

    My perspective was skewed by limited time, I picked the first thing I saw. The 16 year old thing is a separate issue, you seem to trying to find other things to argue about and point at them as if they prove what I agree with is wrong. You may well be right, that could well be more important issue, but it does not change what I said.


    Gdemami

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 3,018
    Scot said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?

    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 



    Cool link, thanks, but I don't think it's as relevant as you think it is, since it's dealing with ACTUAL gambling. However, there is lots of interesting information in it. For one, the percentage of problem gamblers is 0.4% which aligns pretty closely with what it is for adults. They also identified that 1.2% are considered "at risk". So this study actually supports pretty much what people have said all along, that this really isn't a problem. Sure, publish odds or something like that, but as far as gambling mechanics go, there are 99 problems and games ain't one. Considering that 75% of these kids were apparently exposed to gambling advertising via television on a weekly basis, and there's no legislation against that? Gaming is the molehill that's been made into a mountain. Just read the report. If you can't pick out 5 issues that are considerably larger issues (like 16 year-olds being legally able to gamble) then your perspective is obviously skewed. 
    Indeed it is deals with actual gambling. I think the like of paid for loot boxes are just that, it seems others are now waking up to that fact. That's why you don't have loads of studies on gambling in gaming, it has gone under the radar.

    How many children need to be at risk before this is an issue for you? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000? It is an issue for kids, that's good enough for me. The other gambling you mentioned on TV does not involve them actually betting money.

    My perspective was skewed by limited time, I picked the first thing I saw. The 16 year old thing is a separate issue, you seem to trying to find other things to argue about and point at them as if they prove what I agree with is wrong. You may well be right, that could well be more important issue, but it does not change what I said.


    The "there are more important issues" argument is a red herring.
    Gdemami

    image
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,017
    Scot said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?

    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 



    Cool link, thanks, but I don't think it's as relevant as you think it is, since it's dealing with ACTUAL gambling. However, there is lots of interesting information in it. For one, the percentage of problem gamblers is 0.4% which aligns pretty closely with what it is for adults. They also identified that 1.2% are considered "at risk". So this study actually supports pretty much what people have said all along, that this really isn't a problem. Sure, publish odds or something like that, but as far as gambling mechanics go, there are 99 problems and games ain't one. Considering that 75% of these kids were apparently exposed to gambling advertising via television on a weekly basis, and there's no legislation against that? Gaming is the molehill that's been made into a mountain. Just read the report. If you can't pick out 5 issues that are considerably larger issues (like 16 year-olds being legally able to gamble) then your perspective is obviously skewed. 
    Indeed it is deals with actual gambling. I think the like of paid for loot boxes are just that, it seems others are now waking up to that fact. That's why you don't have loads of studies on gambling in gaming, it has gone under the radar.

    How many children need to be at risk before this is an issue for you? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000? It is an issue for kids, that's good enough for me. The other gambling you mentioned on TV does not involve them actually betting money.

    My perspective was skewed by limited time, I picked the first thing I saw. The 16 year old thing is a separate issue, you seem to trying to find other things to argue about and point at them as if they prove what I agree with is wrong. You may well be right, that could well be more important issue, but it does not change what I said.


    The "there are more important issues" argument is a red herring.
    If that were true then there are no more important issues than gambling in games. Is that true?
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  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAMember UncommonPosts: 5,449
    edited December 7
    When people start trying to protect me from myself I get suspicious. Not only are loot boxes legally not gambling, gambling is in fact legal in many places. So maybe put your good intentions where the sun don't shine and let me look out for myself and my family. I'm the best informed and capable person to do it. I don't need your agenda. 
    Post edited by zymurgeist on
    zimike

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • TillerTiller Member RarePosts: 6,234
    While they are at it they should get rid of those claw grab games and plastic egg machines as well.
    zimike





  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,017
    Scot said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?

    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 



    Cool link, thanks, but I don't think it's as relevant as you think it is, since it's dealing with ACTUAL gambling. However, there is lots of interesting information in it. For one, the percentage of problem gamblers is 0.4% which aligns pretty closely with what it is for adults. They also identified that 1.2% are considered "at risk". So this study actually supports pretty much what people have said all along, that this really isn't a problem. Sure, publish odds or something like that, but as far as gambling mechanics go, there are 99 problems and games ain't one. Considering that 75% of these kids were apparently exposed to gambling advertising via television on a weekly basis, and there's no legislation against that? Gaming is the molehill that's been made into a mountain. Just read the report. If you can't pick out 5 issues that are considerably larger issues (like 16 year-olds being legally able to gamble) then your perspective is obviously skewed. 
    Indeed it is deals with actual gambling. I think the like of paid for loot boxes are just that, it seems others are now waking up to that fact. That's why you don't have loads of studies on gambling in gaming, it has gone under the radar.

    How many children need to be at risk before this is an issue for you? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000? It is an issue for kids, that's good enough for me. The other gambling you mentioned on TV does not involve them actually betting money.

    My perspective was skewed by limited time, I picked the first thing I saw. The 16 year old thing is a separate issue, you seem to trying to find other things to argue about and point at them as if they prove what I agree with is wrong. You may well be right, that could well be more important issue, but it does not change what I said.


    You're trying to associate your subjective opinion "I think loot boxes constitute gambling" with the factual results found in that survey. The opinion or premise that loot boxes constitute the exact same sort of gambling as in the report needs to stand on its own facts. Evidence can only be borrowed from something else and used in an argument if the two things exactly the same. They are not. If it can be proved that loot boxes are exactly the same sort of gambling then those survey results could be used in argument for supporting the same conclusions as drawn in the survey.

    The 16 year old argument is not irrelevant in the context of establishing regulation and concern about minor gambling. The argument of "concern" is hollow if there are more obvious egregious examples being overlooked to cherry pick personal favorites.

    People are at risk for many adverse events at all times. Using that argument broadly is a scare tactic used as an emotional appeal carrying no factual weight. Again, you must establish the exact risk and it needs to be supported with real data not some emotional propaganda scare tactics.

    The Crazy Canadian is trying to establish that this agenda of yours exists in a bigger and broader context that your arguments have ignored so far.
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 3,018
    Torval said:
    Scot said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?

    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 



    Cool link, thanks, but I don't think it's as relevant as you think it is, since it's dealing with ACTUAL gambling. However, there is lots of interesting information in it. For one, the percentage of problem gamblers is 0.4% which aligns pretty closely with what it is for adults. They also identified that 1.2% are considered "at risk". So this study actually supports pretty much what people have said all along, that this really isn't a problem. Sure, publish odds or something like that, but as far as gambling mechanics go, there are 99 problems and games ain't one. Considering that 75% of these kids were apparently exposed to gambling advertising via television on a weekly basis, and there's no legislation against that? Gaming is the molehill that's been made into a mountain. Just read the report. If you can't pick out 5 issues that are considerably larger issues (like 16 year-olds being legally able to gamble) then your perspective is obviously skewed. 
    Indeed it is deals with actual gambling. I think the like of paid for loot boxes are just that, it seems others are now waking up to that fact. That's why you don't have loads of studies on gambling in gaming, it has gone under the radar.

    How many children need to be at risk before this is an issue for you? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000? It is an issue for kids, that's good enough for me. The other gambling you mentioned on TV does not involve them actually betting money.

    My perspective was skewed by limited time, I picked the first thing I saw. The 16 year old thing is a separate issue, you seem to trying to find other things to argue about and point at them as if they prove what I agree with is wrong. You may well be right, that could well be more important issue, but it does not change what I said.


    The "there are more important issues" argument is a red herring.
    If that were true then there are no more important issues than gambling in games. Is that true?
    Why misrepresent the argument as a false dichotomy?  C'mon, Torval.

    We can't work to reduce rape because "there are more important issues" like murder.  See how silly that sounds?
    GdemamiCazriel

    image
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    edited December 7
    Torval said:
    Scot said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Scot said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded
    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most

    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.
    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?

    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 



    Cool link, thanks, but I don't think it's as relevant as you think it is, since it's dealing with ACTUAL gambling. However, there is lots of interesting information in it. For one, the percentage of problem gamblers is 0.4% which aligns pretty closely with what it is for adults. They also identified that 1.2% are considered "at risk". So this study actually supports pretty much what people have said all along, that this really isn't a problem. Sure, publish odds or something like that, but as far as gambling mechanics go, there are 99 problems and games ain't one. Considering that 75% of these kids were apparently exposed to gambling advertising via television on a weekly basis, and there's no legislation against that? Gaming is the molehill that's been made into a mountain. Just read the report. If you can't pick out 5 issues that are considerably larger issues (like 16 year-olds being legally able to gamble) then your perspective is obviously skewed. 
    Indeed it is deals with actual gambling. I think the like of paid for loot boxes are just that, it seems others are now waking up to that fact. That's why you don't have loads of studies on gambling in gaming, it has gone under the radar.

    How many children need to be at risk before this is an issue for you? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000? It is an issue for kids, that's good enough for me. The other gambling you mentioned on TV does not involve them actually betting money.

    My perspective was skewed by limited time, I picked the first thing I saw. The 16 year old thing is a separate issue, you seem to trying to find other things to argue about and point at them as if they prove what I agree with is wrong. You may well be right, that could well be more important issue, but it does not change what I said.


    The "there are more important issues" argument is a red herring.
    If that were true then there are no more important issues than gambling in games. Is that true?
    Why misrepresent the argument as a false dichotomy?  C'mon, Torval.

    We can't work to reduce rape because "there are more important issues" like murder.  See how silly that sounds?
    ALL of you could stop being evasive and just get to fucking point.

    just an idea

    lets not talk metaphor on top of metaphor 
    Post edited by SEANMCAD on

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TillerTiller Member RarePosts: 6,234
    edited December 7
    Post edited by Tiller on
    Scot





  • CazrielCazriel San Francisco, CAMember UncommonPosts: 246
    edited December 7

    SEANMCAD said:




    Torval said:




    Scot said:


    CrazKanuk said:


    Scot said:


    SEANMCAD said:


    Scot said:


    SEANMCAD said:



    actually io you put the barrier of M or adult only tags on games with MT will make company think again before doing this, I remember game company make several changes on localization of games to prevent these tags who would make then a restrited sale zone, like wallmart not letting then sell it and so on, with also could get then to lose the whole cash cards they sell in these places, but then again that article is kinda old so I don't know if would hold true today on most games are downloaded


    so this really isnt about the childern but rather a stradegy to get it out for most


    I don't think gambling should be in gaming, but I realise that it may be impossible to stop for adults. Arcade games were never fruit machine games, but that's the way they are now going. If it can only be stopped for minors so be it. But if the knock on effect of that is that it goes completely all the better.


    what about violence, maybe if we put in rules on violence around kids maybe we will get lucky and adults will not be exposed to violence as well.

    see why I find this 'its all about the kids' a pile of horseshit?


    Studies have shown that violence in TV shows and games do not produce youngsters more likely to commit violence.

    Whereas gambling does cause problems, such as children stealing from their parents. The PDF below goes into some such issues.

    http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-people-and-gambling-2016.pdf 





    Cool link, thanks, but I don't think it's as relevant as you think it is, since it's dealing with ACTUAL gambling. However, there is lots of interesting information in it. For one, the percentage of problem gamblers is 0.4% which aligns pretty closely with what it is for adults. They also identified that 1.2% are considered "at risk". So this study actually supports pretty much what people have said all along, that this really isn't a problem. Sure, publish odds or something like that, but as far as gambling mechanics go, there are 99 problems and games ain't one. Considering that 75% of these kids were apparently exposed to gambling advertising via television on a weekly basis, and there's no legislation against that? Gaming is the molehill that's been made into a mountain. Just read the report. If you can't pick out 5 issues that are considerably larger issues (like 16 year-olds being legally able to gamble) then your perspective is obviously skewed. 

    Indeed it is deals with actual gambling. I think the like of paid for loot boxes are just that, it seems others are now waking up to that fact. That's why you don't have loads of studies on gambling in gaming, it has gone under the radar.

    How many children need to be at risk before this is an issue for you? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000? It is an issue for kids, that's good enough for me. The other gambling you mentioned on TV does not involve them actually betting money.

    My perspective was skewed by limited time, I picked the first thing I saw. The 16 year old thing is a separate issue, you seem to trying to find other things to argue about and point at them as if they prove what I agree with is wrong. You may well be right, that could well be more important issue, but it does not change what I said.




    The "there are more important issues" argument is a red herring.


    If that were true then there are no more important issues than gambling in games. Is that true?


    Why misrepresent the argument as a false dichotomy?  C'mon, Torval.

    We can't work to reduce rape because "there are more important issues" like murder.  See how silly that sounds?


    ALL of you could stop being evasive and just get to fucking point.

    just an idea



    Says he who threw in the "what about violence" canard to derail the discussion.
    Post edited by Cazriel on
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    Tiller said:
    that is a cool game! how do I cash out my winnings? does it apply to my credit card somehow?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    edited December 7
    Cazriel said:




    Says he who threw in the "what about violence" canard to derail the discussion.
    lol...

    yeah reading the exchange there about whatever they were talking about was like watching Mr. Robot and wanting to scream get to the fucking point! and stop being evasive. you know what evasive means right? because its different from derailing

    anyway...just dropped in a second I will be on my way or maybe not
    Post edited by SEANMCAD on

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 3,018
    SEANMCAD said:
    Cazriel said:




    Says he who threw in the "what about violence" canard to derail the discussion.
    lol...

    yeah reading the exchange there about whatever they were talking about was like watching Mr. Robot and wanting to scream get to the fucking point! and stop being evasive. you know what evasive means right? because its different from derailing

    anyway...just dropped in a second I will be on my way or maybe not
    You happen to be the only one who is having a hard time finding the point in the back and forth posts.

    image
  • CazrielCazriel San Francisco, CAMember UncommonPosts: 246
    "Gambling mechanisms", an excellent phrase. Call it what it is rather than the innocuous terms like MT, lock box or loot box.



    When people start trying to protect me from myself I get suspicious. Not only are loot boxes legally not gambling, gambling is in fact legal in many places. So maybe put your good intentions where the sun don't shine and let me look out for myself and my family. I'm the best informed and capable person to do it. I don't need your agenda. 



    I agree, if you're an adult. There's a reason children don't come of age legally at 8 or 9, but rather 18 or 21. The brains of children are not fully cooked earlier than that and there's an argument to be made that males don't reach adulthood until their early 20s.

    There's nothing wrong with making parents aware that gambling mechanisms are an integral part of a game. Then the parent can decide whether to expose their children and their wallet to same. Developers have successfully hidden what they are doing for quite some time. Now the cat is out of the bag and it's time for reasonable action to control a multi-billion dollar industry that is sucking off children.
  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAMember RarePosts: 2,009
    Scot said:
    I have not had a chance to read the template, but he seems to be spot on with the term "gambling mechanisms". By making this illegal for those who are under 21, gaming companies will sit up and take notice. No doubt they will fight this, I understand EA earns billions just from FIFA using gambling mechanisms.

    Early days, but some hope for those who consider gambling in gaming as a shameful aberration from gaming ethos.
    Here are the key action points:

    1. Ensure that games employing loot boxes or similar variable reward mechanisms which can be purchased receive a 21 years of age and older “Adults Only” rating to warn consumers before they purchase or download a new game.
     2. Consider prohibiting the sale of games employing loot boxes or similar variable reward mechanisms which can be purchased to those under 21 years of age.
     3. Expand the mission of regulatory oversight bodies such as gaming commissions—which already oversee slot machines—to encompass loot boxes or similar variable reward mechanisms which can be purchased in video games.
     4. Require the clear disclosure of the odds of winning items in loot boxes or similar variable reward mechanisms which can be purchased on screen at the time of purchase.
     5. Enable regulators to audit the game mechanics of loot boxes or similar variable reward mechanisms which can be purchased to ensure consumers are treated fairly.

    I believe that these are things that publishers can work with. Some of them (age verification) may require government assistance.


    MadFrenchieScotTorvallaserit
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