Could a game with 100% gear progression and 0% level progression work?

2

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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,995
    MMOs have been moving in this direction more and more the last 10 years.

    In the early MMOs gaining level was the main game and where most players spend all their time. Today leveling is more of a quick tutorial for a couple of weeks until you hit the endgame.

    Skipping the levels completelly is the next logical step if the trend continues. Then again, there have been another trend the last 10 years: lower profits. That have gone so far so no larger western publisher actually makes MMORPGs anymore and there is certainly possible that those 2 trends are connected.

    You certainly could make a MMO without levels but if you do you need to improve the endgame. Then again, if you just continue like now you need to improve it anyways, people are rather tired of it by now, it was originally just something to keep anyone who maxed out busy until the next expansion hits but now it is the main part of the games (if they want people to stay longer then 3 weeks that is).

    MMORPGs need some kind of progression and gear progression is just that, if the game is fun enough it will work just as well as the 2-3 weeks to level up most MMOs have by now. Of course you need to improve a bit how gear work and actually put skills on gear as well as buffs but that is easy enough.
    skadad
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,995
    bcbully said:
    TSW tried it but switched before launvh. Reason being was that max level char. could gift BiS to newly created chars,
    You clearly need "bind on pickup" on items if you use them to progress, how could FunCom missed that?
  • MeleconMelecon Member UncommonPosts: 57
    deniter said:
    Maurgrim said:
    Yes it would work but I don't see any difference compare to level based progression.

    Your first gear is +1, to get a +2 gear set you need to do +2 dungeons and to get +3 gear set you need to do +3 dungeons in your +2 set because if you have your +1 set you will get one shotted..

    Later in game you have +15 set with 4 different stats, you need your +15 set to do a +15 dungeon to get your 5th stat so you can do that epic ++16 raid.

    Well if it would be a theme based MMO that is.

    If it were a sandbox setting you need to progress skills to enhance your character and better gear and you need different skills to be unlocked via quests, guilds, time, money or whatever to obtain better gear, or you can throw out skills altogether and just get better gear via grinding mobs for gold and gear all day long, perhaps quests also but some quests you still need better gear or you die horrible.


    What you just described here was the gear based progression, and that's the way it should be in my opinion.

    In level based progression you could get the +1 gear set and then grind some easy content until you out level both +2 and +3 gear set and are ready to get the +4 gear set.

    That's why the end game is the only part that usually matters - you can't out level content anymore, and the progression becomes gear based only.
    Yeah you can, you just have to look a bit deeper. Pick on Vanilla WoW for instance, as a warrior tank when you got into BWL and started to replace your T1 set with the shiny T2 set you couldn't effectively tank MC anymore.. This would mean you out leveled the content. There is also the fact that you can do it over and over and over to the point that you are done with it. I would classify that as out leveling also please see Diablo 3.
    Kyleran
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIMember RarePosts: 9,153
    Loke666 said:
    bcbully said:
    TSW tried it but switched before launvh. Reason being was that max level char. could gift BiS to newly created chars,
    You clearly need "bind on pickup" on items if you use them to progress, how could FunCom missed that?
    If i remember correctly dungeon nor mobs dropped loot. everything was crafted.
  • PhryPhry OxfordshireMember EpicPosts: 9,025
    Games without levels are not a new idea, its been done before after all, but it would be a mistake to shift the progression over to being strictly gear based as it would likely be abused by RMT'ers etc. in a spectacular fashion, the only way to prevent this would likely be to prevent player to player trading on any level and that is before you get into where you put in the level caps of gear to prevent things spiralling out of control in the first place. :/
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,827
    xonedl said:
    Of course, yes.

    But... Most modern MMOs are insulting player's intelligence by making the gear system so linear and easy.
    Actually it seems many games these days are tying their gear systems (and progression) to their cash shops.

    Which is still insulting of course..


    ConstantineMerusPhry

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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,827
    Loke666 said:
    bcbully said:
    TSW tried it but switched before launvh. Reason being was that max level char. could gift BiS to newly created chars,
    You clearly need "bind on pickup" on items if you use them to progress, how could FunCom missed that?
    Which is a big reason why I don't care for gear based progression,  I abhor BOP mechanics, damages trading and the economy too much IMO.




    ConstantineMerus

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,827
    zanfire said:
    Most modern MMOs make character leveling super short these days and focus on a gear ladder so its pretty much that right now. This would have been an interesting conversation back in the early 2000s, but nowadays it would work and is almost what we have.
    As I generally dislike gear based progression, and quit playing once the "leveling" stops, what you are saying pretty much explains why I'm currently not playing any MMORPG right now.

    Since summer I've been playing only single player RPGs (i.e. Fallout 4) with solid progression systems which are a mixture of levels as well as gear.

    In fact EVE is one of the few MMORPGs I've played for any length beyond a month or so in the past 10 years, largely due to its nearly endless progression system.



    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,329
    Kyleran said:
    xonedl said:
    Of course, yes.

    But... Most modern MMOs are insulting player's intelligence by making the gear system so linear and easy.
    Actually it seems many games these days are tying their gear systems (and progression) to their cash shops.

    Which is still insulting of course..


    Well mate I'd take an insult to my intelligence over an insult to my wallet any day! ;)
    Kyleran
    Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,128
    edited December 4
    So much misinformations about poor TSW...  and yep, that was no level progression and all gear, without skipping the journey part, so OP the answer is yes, it totally could work. That's a whole different question what the hordes of new gamer kidz want, however... :smiley:

    Xiaoki said:
    For an MMO, having progression based entirely on your gear means that itis based on gear drops which is random, so progression would be based on RNG. People already hate RNG enough.
    Except in TSW you made your own gear down to the smallest details (and on a sidenote that pile of shit Legends is totally RNG-based, even the quest rewards are lootbags :wink: ).
    Sure it also had random drops from mobs (missions had fixed rewards but in many cases still offered a pick from several different pieces), but you could disassemble them any time you wanted, and made a piece of your liking from them.
    And when you got to the "endgame" it was all about the custom gear you made for yourself. Kinda like -surprise- Monster Hunter you mentioned. (without MH's random dropped crafting materials, everything was built from the same basic ingredients. It was an amazing system)

    TSW always had a hidden character level [...]
    in SWL [...] maximum character level is typically reached midway through the second region).
    TSW only had a limit on how powerful gear you can equip at a time, never had anything like levels, with restrictions on areas, quests you can take, and such.
    And even SL was only there because gear was everything, and there was no restrictions on anything, so without a mechanic like SL a new character could've made himself purples right in Kingsmouth if someone provides them the materials and the kits.
    Btw. the "max level" of SL could be reached before getting to BM.

    Loke666 said:
    bcbully said:
    TSW tried it but switched before launvh. Reason being was that max level char. could gift BiS to newly created chars,
    You clearly need "bind on pickup" on items if you use them to progress, how could FunCom missed that?
    Nope, you couldn't "gift BiS to newly created chars", that's why the SL was there. You couldn't even do it after that newly created char rushed ahead and quickly reached SL9 (from where they could equip all the endgame gear), an endgame friend or alt still only could provide them the money and the mats for creating an "ok" gear - the similar which they could buy from the AH themselves anyways.

    And that was definitely not BiS, in TSW anything beyond the common dungeon and raid drops were crafted by yourself, and required non-transferable barter currencies beyond the mats you could purchase.

    That's why there was no need for bind on pickup restrictions, Loke. Those items you made for yourself, and after that you couldn't hand it over anymore.
    bcbully said:
    If i remember correctly dungeon nor mobs dropped loot. everything was crafted.
    The contrary, dungeons and mobs dropped loot, which were pretty decent and in use during your journey through the story - but of course you could "edit" those pieces too, any time, if you wanted to replace a stat in them for example. Or you could make a better one from scratch if you wanted.
    After the story, at the so-called endgame, yes, everything was crafted.
    Post edited by Po_gg on
  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebMember RarePosts: 5,662
    Only problem is that someone would simply give you top gear and make you instant top level.
    Phry



  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAMember UncommonPosts: 5,445
    edited December 4
    Only problem is that someone would simply give you top gear and make you instant top level.

    Unless they couldn't. Also a system could be set up to have requirements to use gear that didn't involve a standard stat/level progression. Your game economy could also be based on raw materials if finished items could not be gifted or traded. If you could not craft higher quality gear until you had completed a gear based progression you could not short circuit the progression system. Such as you could not use a sword until you had mastered clubs. You could not use daggers until you had mastered hand to hand combat. You could not use the best dagger until you had mastered all the others. There are answers but it's up to the players if they find them enjoyable. 
    Post edited by zymurgeist on

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  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne UKMember RarePosts: 3,515
    edited December 4
    Definitely can. Most MMOs are already all about gear progression, that's why there's such a rush to level cap.. because once you hit that cap it's just gear progression all the way. That's where the game really starts.

    If you make meaningful and permanent choices during levelling, then levelling matters. If you can re-spec and basically have access to all options at max level then what came before it is just fluff.

    In most MMOs levelling only serves to restrict you gear progression.
    Post edited by TheDarkrayne on
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,425
    World of Warcraft imho already works like that.
    and that was the reason why I left it at end game.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    'Could a game with 100% gear progression and 0% level progression work?'
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/470074/could-a-game-with-100-gear-progression-and-0-level-progression-work/p2#dpAYqspyEQhF6x2F.99



    YES
    4507

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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTMember RarePosts: 4,170
    Progression of character is usually more fun to me than a progression of equipment.  Especially in a modern game where equipment is upgraded almost non stop.  This ties in with quests as well.  When something becomes used so much it is devalued then it starts to feel like it isn't a reward anymore and becomes more of a chore.  Nice items and quests are lost in the fold of a billion more than you need to get and complete.

    My opinion is to have quality over quantity.  Make a few good items and a few good quests.  I would say this even if the items and quests were well designed as you feel more attached to things when they are not lost amongst a slew of other things. 

    Character progression is generally to make you feel like your character is advancing in the game world even if they really aren't that much due to monsters becoming stronger and having more abilities.  It is more an RPG mechanic than anything else.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    Flyte27 said:
    Progression of character is usually more fun to me than a progression of equipment.  Especially in a modern game where equipment is upgraded almost non stop.  This ties in with quests as well.  When something becomes used so much it is devalued then it starts to feel like it isn't a reward anymore and becomes more of a chore.  Nice items and quests are lost in the fold of a billion more than you need to get and complete.

    My opinion is to have quality over quantity.  Make a few good items and a few good quests.  I would say this even if the items and quests were well designed as you feel more attached to things when they are not lost amongst a slew of other things. 

    Character progression is generally to make you feel like your character is advancing in the game world even if they really aren't that much due to monsters becoming stronger and having more abilities.  It is more an RPG mechanic than anything else.
    Different tasks, different gear.

    so the entire need for multiple characters is not needed. Put on your wizard outfit to be a wizard, rouge outfit to be a rouge or combination to make a multiclass

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • deniterdeniter KouvolaMember UncommonPosts: 1,128
    Melecon said:
    deniter said:
    Maurgrim said:
    Yes it would work but I don't see any difference compare to level based progression.

    Your first gear is +1, to get a +2 gear set you need to do +2 dungeons and to get +3 gear set you need to do +3 dungeons in your +2 set because if you have your +1 set you will get one shotted..

    Later in game you have +15 set with 4 different stats, you need your +15 set to do a +15 dungeon to get your 5th stat so you can do that epic ++16 raid.

    Well if it would be a theme based MMO that is.

    If it were a sandbox setting you need to progress skills to enhance your character and better gear and you need different skills to be unlocked via quests, guilds, time, money or whatever to obtain better gear, or you can throw out skills altogether and just get better gear via grinding mobs for gold and gear all day long, perhaps quests also but some quests you still need better gear or you die horrible.


    What you just described here was the gear based progression, and that's the way it should be in my opinion.

    In level based progression you could get the +1 gear set and then grind some easy content until you out level both +2 and +3 gear set and are ready to get the +4 gear set.

    That's why the end game is the only part that usually matters - you can't out level content anymore, and the progression becomes gear based only.
    Yeah you can, you just have to look a bit deeper. Pick on Vanilla WoW for instance, as a warrior tank when you got into BWL and started to replace your T1 set with the shiny T2 set you couldn't effectively tank MC anymore.. This would mean you out leveled the content. There is also the fact that you can do it over and over and over to the point that you are done with it. I would classify that as out leveling also please see Diablo 3.
    Well, the difference is that after a certain point tanking MC over and over again won't help you in any way to get that shiny T2 set, the only way is to run BWL.

    If you compare that to some lower level content, you can run Deadmines over and over again until you're level 25-26 and can skip both SFK and BFD and get ready for Gnomeregan and RFK. In pure gear based progression there's no way you could tank those lvl 30'ish dungeons in your Deadmines gear.
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Huntington Beach, CAMember UncommonPosts: 327
    edited December 4
    xonedl said:
    Of course, yes.

    But... Most modern MMOs are insulting player's intelligence by making the gear system so linear and easy.
    Wait, what? Insulting players intelligence because of the gear system in said game?  Is this a joke?  On one hand, the PLAYERS  are what's wrong with the current mmo generation.  They want everything so easily, so quickly else they cry like 2 yr old babies and the devs cater to it. So, I blame the players for  whats wrong in the current generation of MMO's. On the other hand, Its partially the devs fault for catering to it but since its a business, it makes sense because they'd lose money if they didn't.

    So, blame the players for the current issues with mmo's.  Blame the "now" generation for the shit thats going on. 
    Post edited by Mackaveli44 on
    deniter
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTMember RarePosts: 4,170
    xonedl said:
    Of course, yes.

    But... Most modern MMOs are insulting player's intelligence by making the gear system so linear and easy.
    Wait, what? Insulting players intelligence because of the gear system in said game?  Is this a joke?  On one hand, the PLAYERS  are what's wrong with the current mmo generation.  They want everything so easily, so quickly else they cry like 2 yr old babies and the devs cater to it. So, I blame the players for  whats wrong in the current generation of MMO's. On the other hand, Its partially the devs fault for catering to it but since its a business, it makes sense because they'd lose money if they didn't.

    So, blame the players for the current issues with mmo's.  Blame the "now" generation for the shit thats going on. 
    I don't think it's the new generation.  It's more the mainstream people who they have been able to bring in that want games the way they are.  Even going back to games like Ultima Online, AC, DAOC, and Everquest it was a small group of players that wanted to spend lots of time on games.  I'm sure there is still a small niche that wouldn't mind doing this, but companies usually don't feel it's worth catering to them it appears since the mainstream group is easier to get money out of and doesn't complain as much since gaming is just a side attraction to them that they jump in and play for a small amount of time when they are really bored.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651

    Wait, what? Insulting players intelligence because of the gear system in said game?  Is this a joke?  On one hand, the PLAYERS  are what's wrong with the current mmo generation.  They want everything so easily, so quickly else they cry like 2 yr old babies and the devs cater to it. So, I blame the players for  whats wrong in the current generation of MMO's. On the other hand, Its partially the devs fault for catering to it but since its a business, it makes sense because they'd lose money if they didn't.

    So, blame the players for the current issues with mmo's.  Blame the "now" generation for the shit thats going on. 
    lol .. blame the audience? Sounds like you just like to belittle others because they want different entertainment. Devs have no obligations to cater to you. 

    And what is wrong with wanting quick entertainment? It is entertainment we are talking about, right? If i have any patience, it goes to my work. 
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,867
    Yes but what's the point? How is leveling and permanent gear progression really that different? It's just two ways of achieving the same end.

    Unless you are talking a game like EVE or even better Darkfall where all gear degrades via useage and is lost upon death.

    Then of course the difference would be dramatic and (IMO) awesome as it would entirely kill the idea of linear progression in your game. No advantage could be gained that couldn't be lost.
    4507
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    Eldurian said:
    Yes but what's the point? How is leveling and permanent gear progression really that different? It's just two ways of achieving the same end.

    Unless you are talking a game like EVE or even better Darkfall where all gear degrades via useage and is lost upon death.

    Then of course the difference would be dramatic and (IMO) awesome as it would entirely kill the idea of linear progression in your game. No advantage could be gained that couldn't be lost.
    because you can custom fit for the task at hand.

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  • Gobstopper3DGobstopper3D Member UncommonPosts: 528
    Rhoklaw said:
    If you want my honest opinion, progression is progression, no matter what you label it. So in essence, just because an MMO has level progression, you have people that automatically assume the only thing worth doing is end-game content. Too many people think all that matters is racing to the end, skipping content, skipping lore and stories. So in reality, what you want has nothing to do with RPG. Which is what most level progression MMOs are based on. I really don't see how grinding for end-game gear is any more enjoyable then the adventure to get to that point.
    I agree with you.  The only reason I play any mmo is for the story.  For me it's about the journey,  not what happens once I get there.  I typically stop playing the toon I have once I reach the end game, unless I'm trying to do achievements or something.  If I want to continue to play, I will roll another toon.

    I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    SEANMCAD said:
    Eldurian said:
    Yes but what's the point? How is leveling and permanent gear progression really that different? It's just two ways of achieving the same end.

    Unless you are talking a game like EVE or even better Darkfall where all gear degrades via useage and is lost upon death.

    Then of course the difference would be dramatic and (IMO) awesome as it would entirely kill the idea of linear progression in your game. No advantage could be gained that couldn't be lost.
    because you can custom fit for the task at hand.

    you can either way. You have not played Diablo 3? You can pick & choose your "skill" loadout once you level up enough to unlock the skills. 
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