Is "Pay for convenience" the new pay to win?

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  • RexKushmanRexKushman lake como, NJMember RarePosts: 404
    xonedl said:
    As title says. Is pay for convenience the new pay to win? Many MMOs are offering advantages to skipping content, easier leveling, access to endgame year, great items/vehicles/ships/mounts etc.

    Generally, yes. But that short answer isn't accurate presenting what I'm thinking.

    I don't care about P2W. If people can burn $$$$$$ into a game, good for them. In fact I encourage them to do that, so I can play the game for free.

    The problem comes, when developer decide to lock game mechanism & contents behind paywall. For example skill reset, inventory slot, costume, etc, AND not giving any alternative to acquire them in-game with in-game currency. Basically screwing free-players. That's what happening for most MMOs nowadays.

    If those cash shop items can be reasonably acquired by just playing the game, and cash shop don't invade the game too much, I generally don't mind about it. But cash shop nowadays pretty much invade every possible game aspect... which is annoying.
    Do you believe that games should be totally free? That is what your post sounds like, and I wonder how you think games can be financed with a system like that. I'm all for F2P players being able to access all the content in the game, zones, levels, dungeons, gear etc... but things like skill resets, inventory slots, costumes and the like are perfectly reasonable to be behind a paywall in a F2P game.

    Maybe I am misunderstanding you.
    Torval

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW New York, NYMember UncommonPosts: 503
    xonedl said:
    As title says. Is pay for convenience the new pay to win? Many MMOs are offering advantages to skipping content, easier leveling, access to endgame year, great items/vehicles/ships/mounts etc.

    Generally, yes. But that short answer isn't accurate presenting what I'm thinking.

    I don't care about P2W. If people can burn $$$$$$ into a game, good for them. In fact I encourage them to do that, so I can play the game for free.

    The problem comes, when developer decide to lock game mechanism & contents behind paywall. For example skill reset, inventory slot, costume, etc, AND not giving any alternative to acquire them in-game with in-game currency. Basically screwing free-players. That's what happening for most MMOs nowadays.

    If those cash shop items can be reasonably acquired by just playing the game, and cash shop don't invade the game too much, I generally don't mind about it. But cash shop nowadays pretty much invade every possible game aspect... which is annoying.
    I find that contradictory.  P2W basically means predatory cash shop.  So how can a game be P2W and have non invasive cashshop.

    I didn't play many mmorpg but almost all of them I played give you a way to buy cash shop item with in game currency.  You just have to grind it or buy from another player.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioMember UncommonPosts: 2,956
    Torval said:
    I have always said that I work in development. I have also always made it clear that I am not a game developer and have never been employed as a game developer, engineer, or tester. I have been invited to private testing before the whole EA/crowd-funding thing kicked off and I've been privy to NDA info from that perspective. I have friends and relatives that work in game development, mostly in art and design. I hope that clarifies any misconception I might have created or given in any past post.
    Thank you, sir. That was a polite and upstanding reply (this is sincere).
    I appreciate this very much.
    Torval

    Once upon a time....

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,724
    barasawa said:
    Stupid car analogy:
    Indy Race - 500 laps to finish (Don't care how many laps the real one is)

    Pay to win - $$$ Engine upgrade makes car 30% faster
    Pay for Convenience - $$$ You start at lap 400 
    Microtransaction Cosmetics - Cool flaming rabbit paint job (Fosters reference)

    ... To me P2W and P4C are pretty much the same thing, just with a slight twist ...

    I can't agree with this analogy. P4C would be more like you can get that same 30% upgrade but with a boost so it doesn't take as long to get as someone who doesn't pay at all. Keepin it real. Paying to start at lap 400 in a race to 500 is no different than p2w. 
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    xonedl said:
    As title says. Is pay for convenience the new pay to win? Many MMOs are offering advantages to skipping content, easier leveling, access to endgame year, great items/vehicles/ships/mounts etc.

    Generally, yes. But that short answer isn't accurate presenting what I'm thinking.

    I don't care about P2W. If people can burn $$$$$$ into a game, good for them. In fact I encourage them to do that, so I can play the game for free.

    The problem comes, when developer decide to lock game mechanism & contents behind paywall. For example skill reset, inventory slot, costume, etc, AND not giving any alternative to acquire them in-game with in-game currency. Basically screwing free-players. That's what happening for most MMOs nowadays.

    If those cash shop items can be reasonably acquired by just playing the game, and cash shop don't invade the game too much, I generally don't mind about it. But cash shop nowadays pretty much invade every possible game aspect... which is annoying.
    This isn't a problem in my opinion either. Studios want to get paid and relying solely on whales is a flawed business strategy.

    I'm not a big fan of paid reset either and I think there are better things to sell in a game. However, something needs to be sold and I'm not supportive of the idea that everything in a game should be obtainable for free.

    I'm a huge fan of the box fee with optional additions like cash shop, subscription, and rmt conversion. I don't support totally free play or that "Free to Play" must mean totally free. I'm old and old school. F2P, to me, just means a subscription isn't mandatory. That's it.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651

    What's really aggravating in the MMO arena is the absolute stickiness of the adherence to what got them in this downward trend. 


    What downward trend? Isn't overwatch doing well? Isn't warframe doing well? Even Destiny 2, which has end-game problems, seem to be dong well.
    Where have you been? This board has been spouting about how the industry is collapsing, and failing since the early 2000's (?)

    So you mean the board is missing all these successful games I mentioned? And how is the industry "collapsing" when it is actually growing?

    http://www.texyon.com/newscorp/global-mmorpg-market

    and i quote "Emerging markets take free-to-play MMO revenue up to a CAGR1 of 7.8% from 2016E to 2018E."

    Is the market even close to $16.9B of f2p segment in 2000?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Torval said:

    This isn't a problem in my opinion either. Studios want to get paid and relying solely on whales is a flawed business strategy.


    Flawed? There are plenty of successful f2p games. What is the flaw? Are you disputing that whales exists and they pay their nose? In fact, Star Citizen got whales to pay up to $150M even WITHOUT a finished game.
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 204
    4507 said:
    4507 said:

    It is unpreventable, period. The only thing you've said thus far that's anywhere close to addressing the issue is when you said that as long as their is trading in the game, there will be RMT. Eliminating trading still doesn't get it entirely out of the way or anything, people can still sell accounts, but it eliminates most of what people would bitch about at least.

    Guess what, you just drove a massive truck through your own analogy that according to you I'm having so much trouble getting around. We have police, we have laws, and crime sprees still happen......just lol. Just like you can do both against RMT in an MMO and they both will still happen. The reason why I'm ignoring your reasoning, like I've already said, is not because it's rock solid, it's because you're deluded and I feel sorry for you. Present a better argument if you want me to acknowledge it, your reasoning thus far isn't even worth my time. 

    I never contradicted myself. RMT will always happen. I've never really said otherwise. What I've said is the environment in MMO design encourages it, and that design is based around the way people largely play the games. Gamers are obsessed with the idea of progression rather than depth. So you get what you wanted and the games are designed around that. If you want to foster an environment that does not actively encourage RMT, then focus more on the experience rather than having the latest and greatest as quickly and easily as possible. You've cultivated that environment for years through your gameplay, and you reap what you sow.

    It's not possible for a 3rd party to sell you an experience outside the game, they can only sell you virtual posessions. By focusing more on the gameplay itself as the reward rather than the materialistic reward, you've already rendered most RMT redundant. Simple. And in my view also done your part to encourage meaningful game design. 

     I've never condracited that, you've never shown how that is wrong, you've just acted like a child without an argument and said repeatedly that I apparently know how wrong I am. lol Who are you trying to convince? I just defeated your paragraphs of ill advised analogies and tangents with one sentence earlier, if my reasoning is so bad you should be able to do the same I'd say. But you can't because to even consider that as a possibility already takes your blame game off of developers and forces you to examine your own behaviour. You can't do it because that's too uncomfortable, and that's fine. But next time you want to say that I believe I'm wrong, it'd be helpful if you'd at least go through the trouble of showing how I'm wrong first yourself, rather than cowering out of that and claiming to know the other person's thoughts like you're omnipotent, despite the fact you don't have an argument.

    /waits for the massive amount of projection that will inevitably come as a response.
    1. Look at the difference in crime levels between a normal Monday evening and that same evening with a blackout. Just like in MMOs, there will still be a small minority of people who commit crimes (i.e. engage in RWT) regardlessly, but when you fail to properly enforce your laws a much larger amount of people will engage in crime because they cease fearing punishment.

    2. So you're doing the exact same thing you go on to accuse me of doing. You lack a counterargument, so are just yelling 'deluded!' and hoping that gets you out of this. Don't think I didn't notice that you snipped out the entire portion of my reply in which I explain in detail a system that would significantly lower RWT rates because you had no response.

    3. The problem is that you're acting like your solution is the only solution to the problem. Yes, what you're proposing would work for some people, but by shifting the focus of the game you're excluding the very large amount of MMO players for whom achievement is the most fun part of the game. There's a whole archetype of this player in Bartle's taxonomy: The Achiever. Your response to reducing RWT in a mainstream MMO is "can't be done. P2W only for achievers".

    4. This entire argument started because you said that developers should sell items, gold, accounts, etc on the cash shop because unsanctioned RWTers are going to sell all that anyway and it's inevitable and unpreventable. I disagreed, saying that I would prefer developers to instead work on reducing RWT rather than partaking in RWT themselves. You said that this was impossible, I gave you a concrete suggestion for a possible RWT reduction mechanic. You ignored this and instead started blathering about how the only way to reduce RWT and its effects is shifting the design focus away from achievement. This is where you moved the goalposts. 

    5. You've shown yourself unable to properly conduct an argument, repeatedly nitpicking analogies rather than addressing the actual argument, in addition to moving the goalposts of the original argument out of simple pride. Reply to this if you need to for your ego, but know that I'm done with you.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651

    Do you believe that games should be totally free? That is what your post sounds like, and I wonder how you think games can be financed with a system like that. I'm all for F2P players being able to access all the content in the game, zones, levels, dungeons, gear etc... but things like skill resets, inventory slots, costumes and the like are perfectly reasonable to be behind a paywall in a F2P game.

    Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

    I believe devs have the freedom to charge , or not charge, as they see fit. It is a free market after all.

    So if devs want to fund their games with money from whales, and give the game away to most players, i don't see a problem. And it is also a free market so I can decide whether to play free or not.
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