Is "Pay for convenience" the new pay to win?

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  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 151
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    If it's really for convenience, it can't be for win.
    A cosmetic pet never helped you to win any PvE or PvP fight.
    The operative unspoken issue here is envy anyway. All of these rants lately lack a serious degree of self honesty. I'm not saying there aren't a few serious problems either, but between a lack of self-honesty and what I call "plank-eye" syndrome (referring to the Biblical parable) we, as a community, miss the point time and again.
    Jeezus! lol.
    Gamers want actual games worth paying for, but you Dev types insist that's not a real desire.
    It's little wonder that we're stuck in this declining spiral of uninspired MMO's.
    With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.

    No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.

    Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
    While we watch this spiralling down, you have the guts to make such claims?
    I'm mad because you all have screwed the MMO scene by selling out to the base desires, instead of being inspired to make better MMO's.

    Yeah, there are happy gamers in your sphere.
    IT'S DECLINING!
    Wake up. Read the tea leaves.
    Well, never mind, it doesn't matter. You'll be out anyways. You've got no future.
    (I can't believe I have to spell that out for you.)
    I"m seriously laughing at you right now. For one, I'm not a game developer. I'm not sure why you thought that because I've never claimed to be one. I move data between medical systems and databases using SQL, Javascript, C#, and some other ETL scripting tools and engines.


    I'm cringing at you right now. Clearly he meant 'game dev type' in a sarcastic way, but you had to go into such detail about your fringe tech job cause why? Ugh.

    Anyways, you're happy with pay for convenience options in games, Im willing to tolerate it, and other dude really doesn't like it. Those are all valid opinions about where the genre is heading, it's a contentious issue because we all have different expectations, and those expectations mostly seem reasonable. Yours are being met, great. But let's not pretend like MMO vets aren't heading off to play single player titles because the difficulty level and accomplishment culture is not there in MMO's right now. It's not like we're not gaming, we're just not content to play that ultra casual shit that you apparently like. 

    You're right though, there's never been more options in gaming, the casuals will only stick around to keep you afloat for so long. Without real innovation in this genre it will be phased out, just like serious gamers are being phased out. MMO's are still a niche market, one that is barren of noteworthy development and has been for several years. I'm really puzzled why you think it's flourishing. With nothing new and pretty to keep the 'horde' pleased and buttered up, you have no where to go but down.
    timtrack
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member UncommonPosts: 492
    Yes, and you can't really complain about it, cause it doesn't affect your ability to compete directly...

    It's a bit of a hack to avoid people labeling games P2W out of the gate.  The reason why it seems new, is because the newer games being released are designed with this as a business model - unlike older games that got cash shops bolted onto them.

    So get used to paying for things like Inventory Space, Crafting Material Bags, etc.
  • sayuusayuu glendale, AZMember RarePosts: 572
    edited December 3
    barasawa said:
    Stupid car analogy:
    Indy Race - 500 laps to finish (Don't care how many laps the real one is)

    Pay to win - $$$ Engine upgrade makes car 30% faster
    Pay for Convenience - $$$ You start at lap 400 
    Microtransaction Cosmetics - Cool flaming rabbit paint job (Fosters reference)

    ... To me P2W and P4C are pretty much the same thing, just with a slight twist ...
    yes you are right that is a stupid analogy. . .


    paying for a better engine or less laps are BOTH pay for advantage.


    a convenience example would be: Pay to have someone else drive your car for 499 laps so you dont have to. . . ( if every car is equal in speed and driver capability, meaning everyone wins after the same amount of time)

    the car is the same as everyone else's so no advantage, but you dont have to go through the grind of 499 laps to "win" at the same time as everyone else.
    Post edited by sayuu on
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 204
    4507 said:
    Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
    I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.

    Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy? 

    The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
    'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'

    They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.

    As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer. 
    I was going to use drugs as the analogy, but I figured with the legalization movement gaining significant traction around the world, it would not have been as effective as it would have been, say, 30 years ago. Conversely to drugs, the trafficking of illegal arms is something that most reasonable people would agree is not a good thing and should be not done by either criminals nor the government. In this respect, it's irrelevant what real-world governments may or may not do - it's happening, therefore it's bad. If it helps, substituting illegal arms for slaves yields the same result.

    For enforcement and punishment, it really wouldn't be that hard to use an automated detection system to look for value imbalances in trades, mailboxes, etc and flag accounts for review by a human specialist. Depending on how far the developer wanted to go with it, they could also retain trade logs going back several months and potentially ban entire RWT networks by having the human specialist trace the movement of items/gold back through the intermediary accounts from the flagged account.

    Perhaps there could even be a reward to players who bring forward information on RWTers (e.g. free week of subscription if your information leads to a ban), which could conceivably spawn entire anti-RWT guilds specializing in conducting sting operations and gathering intelligence for the developers.

    In terns of punishment, it would also be relatively easy to issue IP bans (rather than account bans) to accounts that are caught and prevent players from connecting through proxies. You wouldn't even really have to go that far, though, because just a simple account ban would be incredibly damaging to RWTers' profit margin in subscription games, since the developers could simply wait until one day after the month's subscription is paid before banning the account and not refunding the owner.

    Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioMember UncommonPosts: 2,956
    edited December 3
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    If it's really for convenience, it can't be for win.
    A cosmetic pet never helped you to win any PvE or PvP fight.
    The operative unspoken issue here is envy anyway. All of these rants lately lack a serious degree of self honesty. I'm not saying there aren't a few serious problems either, but between a lack of self-honesty and what I call "plank-eye" syndrome (referring to the Biblical parable) we, as a community, miss the point time and again.
    Jeezus! lol.
    Gamers want actual games worth paying for, but you Dev types insist that's not a real desire.
    It's little wonder that we're stuck in this declining spiral of uninspired MMO's.
    With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.

    No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.

    Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
    While we watch this spiralling down, you have the guts to make such claims?
    I'm mad because you all have screwed the MMO scene by selling out to the base desires, instead of being inspired to make better MMO's.

    Yeah, there are happy gamers in your sphere.
    IT'S DECLINING!
    Wake up. Read the tea leaves.
    Well, never mind, it doesn't matter. You'll be out anyways. You've got no future.
    (I can't believe I have to spell that out for you.)
    I"m seriously laughing at you right now. For one, I'm not a game developer. I'm not sure why you thought that because I've never claimed to be one. I move data between medical systems and databases using SQL, Javascript, C#, and some other ETL scripting tools and engines.


    I'm cringing at you right now. Clearly he meant 'game dev type' in a sarcastic way, but you had to go into such detail about your fringe tech job cause why? Ugh.

    Anyways, you're happy with pay for convenience options in games, Im willing to tolerate it, and other dude really doesn't like it. Those are all valid opinions about where the genre is heading, it's a contentious issue because we all have different expectations, and those expectations mostly seem reasonable. Yours are being met, great. But let's not pretend like MMO vets aren't heading off to play single player titles because the difficulty level and accomplishment culture is not there in MMO's right now. It's not like we're not gaming, we're just not content to play that ultra casual shit that you apparently like. 

    You're right though, there's never been more options in gaming, the casuals will only stick around to keep you afloat for so long. Without real innovation in this genre it will be phased out, just like serious gamers are being phased out. MMO's are still a niche market, one that is barren of noteworthy development and has been for several years. I'm really puzzled why you think it's flourishing. With nothing new and pretty to keep the 'horde' pleased and buttered up, you have no where to go but down.
    No, I assumed he is in fact a Dev because he said he was. That was some time ago and before they changed the forums over here, so between that and the time lapse I don't think I have a chance of finding it.
    The games here never change.

    Laugh all you want, Torval. Doesn't bother me at all.
    You know I'll have the last laugh when things go south for the Devs like you.
    (But I won't really, I think it's a very sad situation.)
    They're already bad because of the choices made. And getting worse because you all are sticking strong to the only, unimaginative, things you know.
    Post edited by Amaranthar on

    Once upon a time....

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    I have always said that I work in development. I have also always made it clear that I am not a game developer and have never been employed as a game developer, engineer, or tester. I have been invited to private testing before the whole EA/crowd-funding thing kicked off and I've been privy to NDA info from that perspective. I have friends and relatives that work in game development, mostly in art and design. I hope that clarifies any misconception I might have created or given in any past post.
    Amaranthar
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  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 151
    4507 said:
    4507 said:
    Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
    I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.

    Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy? 

    The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
    'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'

    They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.

    As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer. 


    Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
    It's not my way of thinking that's encouraging the practice at all, I can only rationalize a design decision someone else is making. I already touched on this earlier in the thread. Are you the kind of person who rushes to end game at ludicrous speed? Answer yourself honestly. If the answer is yes, and there's a very high chance that is the case on average, then you're the problem. You're creating the climate where this kind of practice is highly desirable and profitable. It's really as simple as that tbh. I mostly just play Dark Souls type games these days. In these games the fights are urgent and impactful from the first stage on, and there is as much a sense of accomplishment from killing the third boss as there is the last. 

    That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh? 

    Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 204
    4507 said:
    4507 said:
    Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
    I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.

    Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy? 

    The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
    'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'

    They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.

    As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer. 


    Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
    It's not my way of thinking that's encouraging the practice at all, I can only rationalize a design decision someone else is making. I already touched on this earlier in the thread. Are you the kind of person who rushes to end game at ludicrous speed? Answer yourself honestly. If the answer is yes, and there's a very high chance that is the case on average, then you're the problem. You're creating the climate where this kind of practice is highly desirable and profitable. It's really as simple as that tbh. I mostly just play Dark Souls type games these days. In these games the fights are urgent and impactful from the first stage on, and there is as much a sense of accomplishment from killing the third boss as there is the last. 

    That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh? 

    Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
    It seems like you meant to respond to someone else - we were arguing about whether selling gold/items in the cash shop is a good thing. We were never talking about progression systems and playstyles.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001

    I'm cringing at you right now. Clearly he meant 'game dev type' in a sarcastic way, but you had to go into such detail about your fringe tech job cause why? Ugh.

    Anyways, you're happy with pay for convenience options in games, Im willing to tolerate it, and other dude really doesn't like it. Those are all valid opinions about where the genre is heading, it's a contentious issue because we all have different expectations, and those expectations mostly seem reasonable. Yours are being met, great. But let's not pretend like MMO vets aren't heading off to play single player titles because the difficulty level and accomplishment culture is not there in MMO's right now. It's not like we're not gaming, we're just not content to play that ultra casual shit that you apparently like. 

    You're right though, there's never been more options in gaming, the casuals will only stick around to keep you afloat for so long. Without real innovation in this genre it will be phased out, just like serious gamers are being phased out. MMO's are still a niche market, one that is barren of noteworthy development and has been for several years. I'm really puzzled why you think it's flourishing. With nothing new and pretty to keep the 'horde' pleased and buttered up, you have no where to go but down.
    Who cares what "vets" are doing. If people think being a "vet" means a thing, then I think it's time for a reality check.

    If you had read the posts after you'd have seen I don't use level boots (except GW2 because I don't really play it) and I rarely use xp boosts. Leveling is one of my favorite things. I never said I was happy with convenience items. I don't think I expressed feeling about them at all. You did.

    I think your perspective is out of whack because my "needs" aren't being met. If the gaming landscape were being developed around my needs it would look a lot different. And if I were going to make games they would be about what I want to do in a game. I'm not interested in making games that other people want to play how they want to play.

    I like to game and I can find a lot of fun gaming out there. Am I supposed to feel bad about that because you can't or won't or don't want to? Maybe create a friendlier community and other people will start caring. That's what fans of cult niche games have done over the decades. I'll say the same thing I told Amaranthar, make people want to join your cause not try to punish them for not sharing your specific interests.
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001

    No, I assumed he is in fact a Dev because he said he was. That was some time ago and before they changed the forums over here, so between that and the time lapse I don't think I have a chance of finding it.
    The games here never change.

    Laugh all you want, Torval. Doesn't bother me at all.
    You know I'll have the last laugh when things go south for the Devs like you.
    (But I won't really, I think it's a very sad situation.)
    They're already bad because of the choices made. And getting worse because you all are sticking strong to the only, unimaginative, things you know.
    I'm not really laughing at you, but at the attitude and position you're asserting in this thread along with a couple weird assumptions.

    Why do I have to justify my gaming interests to you or anyone? Why does what I find interesting about gaming have to matter or be significant to anyone but me? That's what these debates are boiling down to. It's not just that people won't play games that have this stuff in it. They don't want other people playing those games and that's crazy talk.

    I saw a tagline under someone in chat the other day. It said, "Playing whatever the fuck I want." Kind of blunt, a bit rude, and apparently inappropriate for polite company, work, and children under 13, but totally awesome. To me, that distills how I feel about gaming. I found it liberating.
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  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 151
    4507 said:
    4507 said:
    4507 said:
    Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
    I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.

    Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy? 

    The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
    'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'

    They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.

    As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer. 


    Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
    It's not my way of thinking that's encouraging the practice at all, I can only rationalize a design decision someone else is making. I already touched on this earlier in the thread. Are you the kind of person who rushes to end game at ludicrous speed? Answer yourself honestly. If the answer is yes, and there's a very high chance that is the case on average, then you're the problem. You're creating the climate where this kind of practice is highly desirable and profitable. It's really as simple as that tbh. I mostly just play Dark Souls type games these days. In these games the fights are urgent and impactful from the first stage on, and there is as much a sense of accomplishment from killing the third boss as there is the last. 

    That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh? 

    Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
    It seems like you meant to respond to someone else - we were arguing about whether selling gold/items in the cash shop is a good thing. We were never talking about progression systems and playstyles.
    You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content. 

    You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place. 
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    Well, did you ever ask yourself whether locking progression behind a paywall was a good or bad thing in the first place? You wouldn't be disgruntled about convenience items if you weren't paying to progress in the first place. Maybe, that is the wrong way to monetize gaming.
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  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 151

    Torval said:

    I'm cringing at you right now. Clearly he meant 'game dev type' in a sarcastic way, but you had to go into such detail about your fringe tech job cause why? Ugh.

    Anyways, you're happy with pay for convenience options in games, Im willing to tolerate it, and other dude really doesn't like it. Those are all valid opinions about where the genre is heading, it's a contentious issue because we all have different expectations, and those expectations mostly seem reasonable. Yours are being met, great. But let's not pretend like MMO vets aren't heading off to play single player titles because the difficulty level and accomplishment culture is not there in MMO's right now. It's not like we're not gaming, we're just not content to play that ultra casual shit that you apparently like. 

    You're right though, there's never been more options in gaming, the casuals will only stick around to keep you afloat for so long. Without real innovation in this genre it will be phased out, just like serious gamers are being phased out. MMO's are still a niche market, one that is barren of noteworthy development and has been for several years. I'm really puzzled why you think it's flourishing. With nothing new and pretty to keep the 'horde' pleased and buttered up, you have no where to go but down.
    Who cares what "vets" are doing. If people think being a "vet" means a thing, then I think it's time for a reality check.

    If you had read the posts after you'd have seen I don't use level boots (except GW2 because I don't really play it) and I rarely use xp boosts. Leveling is one of my favorite things. I never said I was happy with convenience items. I don't think I expressed feeling about them at all. You did.

    I think your perspective is out of whack because my "needs" aren't being met. If the gaming landscape were being developed around my needs it would look a lot different. And if I were going to make games they would be about what I want to do in a game. I'm not interested in making games that other people want to play how they want to play.

    I like to game and I can find a lot of fun gaming out there. Am I supposed to feel bad about that because you can't or won't or don't want to? Maybe create a friendlier community and other people will start caring. That's what fans of cult niche games have done over the decades. I'll say the same thing I told Amaranthar, make people want to join your cause not try to punish them for not sharing your specific interests.
    You don't have to care that vets reject the casual market, you've already said you're perfectly fine in today's market, so why would you? As long as casuals still care about the games then you'll be okay, until they move on to something else because the MMORPG genre isn't producing anything, then what? It seems like you're trying to have both things at once. You want to project the notion that you're happy with today's MMO roster and also at the same time that you desire some kind of sophistication. Yeah I call bullshit. You can't really have it both ways. You either enjoy vapid F2P spankfest's or you expect more. I expect more so you can have that. It's that simple. Enjoy. 

    Just lol, it's a really pretentious notion that me or anyone else on this forum has some kind of 'cause'. I already told you, I game just fine I just don't like the games you like. I don't have to be 'friendly' about it, I don't need you or anyone else to 'care' about anything, you're looking out for your own interests and I'm looking out for mine. I don't know why you'd feel to tell him that or much less repeat it to someone else, were not looking to shut down your games, we just don't like them, why so threatened? You really feel like you're being 'punished' for liking something because we don't like it? Good god man, who gives a shit?
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,128
    Torval said:
    I always figured it was for people that don't play the game regularly but want to do the latest xpac with their gaming friends and run raids till they bore of it. They'll pop back in when a new xpac is out. There's nothing wrong with that imo.
    I usually babble against it due to the overall effect, not the option itself. As a story player I'm more with Loke, the journey is what matters, not the goal at the end, and while personally I believe it is stupid to pay just to skip all of it, I'm all about options: if someone wants that, who am I to say otherwise? (the very first thing you learn in the mmo healing school, you can't outheal stupid :smiley: )

    My problem is not the (non-existing) "win" in it, or that they get there quicker, etc. my problem is how it effects the game, or games overall. That's what I raised voice about years ago (I guess around 2010, since the first time I met this option was in AoC), and you can already see on the newer games how it turned out... since there's an option for jump ahead, and there's an incentive with it for the devs to sell that option, the journey became irrevelant. You see games with very short or even ignorable leveling part (which one promoted "endgame starts right after the character creation", I wonder? :wink: ) when there's no boosts, or from the other side you have artifically boring and tedious and grindy leveling just to sell more jump-ahead options.

    Either way, the focus shifted from the world to the endgame grind, and since I never was a "life start at level cap" kind of a player, I don't like it. But since I can't change anything about it... I mostly just ignore it.
  • RexKushmanRexKushman lake como, NJMember RarePosts: 404
    Torval said:

    With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.

    No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.

    Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
    I wish I could make this whole post my forum signature. You're a champ.
    Oh look.
    A devotee of this stale fish tank industry.

    Look Torval, you got a friend. Another sniper that doesn't like to be faced with the truth.
    Or maybe the rest of us are just full of "envy", as you put it.

    Envious of...exactly what? What do we call it?
    Failed mimicry?
    Stagnated whale hunting?
    Burnt toast?
    Thrice baked taters?
    Refried beano?
    lol
    U mad bro? Cuz you seem mad.

    Seriously though, me buying an xp scroll in ESO to try out a class I haven't tried before affects you in ZERO ways. I work 50 - 70 hrs a week so my limited time in game is valuable to me. You play the games that cater to what you like and I'll play the ones that cater to things I like, thats the whole point of @Torval post.  
    Jean-Luc_PicardTorvalConstantineMerus

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Yeah buddy I think the whole thread is about people complaining about a particular playstyle being catered to over their own. The difference is most people here dont talk about their playstyle on every freaking thread on this site like you do. This thread is actually about that this time, hence why were talking about it. 


    Of course they do. In fact, you just mentioned that people are complaining their playstyle not being catered too. 

    and isn't it fair game to point out that no one has to cater to them? After this is also a free world to post whatever opinion we have on the industry. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651

    What's really aggravating in the MMO arena is the absolute stickiness of the adherence to what got them in this downward trend. 


    What downward trend? Isn't overwatch doing well? Isn't warframe doing well? Even Destiny 2, which has end-game problems, seem to be dong well.
  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAMember RarePosts: 2,005
    edited December 3

    What's really aggravating in the MMO arena is the absolute stickiness of the adherence to what got them in this downward trend. 


    What downward trend? Isn't overwatch doing well? Isn't warframe doing well? Even Destiny 2, which has end-game problems, seem to be dong well.
    Where have you been? This board has been spouting about how the industry is collapsing, and failing since the early 2000's (?)
    Post edited by Superman0X on
    TorvalRexKushmanConstantineMerus
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    In perspective these are only problems because of progression raiding and pvp and players insatiable desire to be first and win. How raiding and pvp work in MMO has completely gamified, in a tawdry arcade styled manner, the RPG environment.

    It's hard to believe people value the journey when the goal is still a gamey arcade fest. I'm not buying that deep RPG adventures are important to all that effort can be dumped for a completely different play style and game.

    So if those people don't really care about the journey but are still mad that people can skip, then they're mad about the skipping for a different reason. I suspect, since we're talking about the PvP and raiding crowds, that this has to do with their dislike for other people competing with them without having to spend all the time it takes, time that gives the established players advantage over new arrivals. Being able to buy past that time sink removes the "vets" advantage and that makes them salty. And unless they too want to fork over money they'll have to grind even harder.

    So this is a situation where people jealously guard their advantage and are too greed to spend more money to stay competitive. And on the other hand we have studios capitalizing on this greed and envy in a manner that is itself motivated by greed.

    The complaints from the players aren't about ruining game design. They're about having to pay money and being on top. In my opinion, that's the result and consequences, intended or not, of designing games around monetizing progression. It's cute that some people thought that it would stay a cheap subscription forever, but it's not realistic and I have little sympathy.

    I do have fun and MMOs are fine because I don't need to have my wants and expectations fully met to enjoy gaming. There will always be something and some way to enjoy it even if it's now how I prefer it.
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: Howard Blake, Peter Auty (vocalist)
    Album: The Snowman
    Featured Tracks: Walking in the Air
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,995
    Torval said:
    I always figured it was for people that don't play the game regularly but want to do the latest xpac with their gaming friends and run raids till they bore of it. They'll pop back in when a new xpac is out. There's nothing wrong with that imo. It's not my thing, but visitors are good for revenue and the community.

    I supposed I could use it on an alt if I didn't plan on leveling it all the way or it was casual side character. The only time I use level boosts are in Guild Wars 2. I get them on my character birthdays and bump up my alts with them. Levels don't feel like levels in GW2. It's more about unlocking points and stuff.

    I don't think I've used them in any other mmo I've played that I remember anyway. I don't even typically use my XP boosts because that means my thing is done that much sooner. I do use crafting xp pots in games that have them because I can never keep my crafting level up and useful with my adventure level.
    While that probably is true, most people that jump in each new expansion to play a couple of weeks with old friends already have a max level character since last time and even if they skipped the last time they could start a few days before the new expansion and quickly be into the action.

    If friends recruit a new person they want to play with it would make more sense but it still kinda stupid since most of us that recruit a friend actually make a new toon and play it with him/her so he/she actually can play the toon right. Learni§ng up someone new with a max level char is a pain and they miss a lot of the best part of the game that way, particularly since leveling the 5 or at best 10 levels a new expansion have it usually done in days and having a noob in the endgame is painful for everyone involved.

    I used my char ups in GW2 as well but since I already had one 80 in each class before even HoT released (I actually had 2 warriors and 2 rangers) it just gave me 2 different max level alts, and I would have skipped it altogether if it wasn't free and just played up the Rev. 
    Po_gg
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 204
    4507 said:
    4507 said:
    4507 said:
    Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
    I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.

    Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy? 

    The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
    'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'

    They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.

    As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer. 


    Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
    It's not my way of thinking that's encouraging the practice at all, I can only rationalize a design decision someone else is making. I already touched on this earlier in the thread. Are you the kind of person who rushes to end game at ludicrous speed? Answer yourself honestly. If the answer is yes, and there's a very high chance that is the case on average, then you're the problem. You're creating the climate where this kind of practice is highly desirable and profitable. It's really as simple as that tbh. I mostly just play Dark Souls type games these days. In these games the fights are urgent and impactful from the first stage on, and there is as much a sense of accomplishment from killing the third boss as there is the last. 

    That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh? 

    Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
    It seems like you meant to respond to someone else - we were arguing about whether selling gold/items in the cash shop is a good thing. We were never talking about progression systems and playstyles.
    You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content. 

    You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place. 
    Wow, way to move the goal post. You've realized that you were wrong but are refusing to admit it and instead starting a completely different argument. This is why I hate arguing on forums...

    Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics). 
    Torval
  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 151
    edited December 3
    4507 said:

    You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content. 

    You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place. 
    Wow, way to move the goal post. You've realized that you were wrong but are refusing to admit it and instead starting a completely different argument. This is why I hate arguing on forums...

    Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics). 
    It's hilarious that you're saying I was wrong, and your second paragraph here not only restates my initial point, that you can't stop people from RMT, I only went on to say that I don't blame developers for embracing it to a certain extent, but also renders your prior argument about 'enforcement and punishment' irrelevant because you're conceding that it's going to happen anyways as long as there is trading in the game.

     I haven't moved the goal posts, I just have no interest in debating the merits of your idea that developers can in fact shut that shit down if they just put the effort into it. Because it's not realistic and I would prefer to not even acknowledge that argument because it's pretty embarassing to even talk about. It's like a 3 year olds reasoning that wars would just stop happening if people sat down and talked about things. Because it fundamentally ignores what we know about human beings and the subject matter, it's not worth talking about. So I shifted my focus from the effect to the cause, because that is something we actually can control to a certain extent.

    Who is really at fault, the useless kid or the parents who are enablers and allow them to be useless? Gamers are the useless kid and developers are the enablers. You can feign ignorance all you want and avoid taking responsibility for your actions, as gamers, and just blame developers because they're supposed to know better than offer RMT when you're perfectly willing to pay for it. But that's bullshit, you know it's bullshit, and until you acknowledge that there isn't much to discuss. 

    Also, I don't see how people shifting focus in topics is a problem specific to game forums, like it's easier to get away with that tactic here or something. It's actually the opposite, it's much easier to put up that kind of a smoke screen in a verbal debate than it is a written one. Here there is a record of everything that's been said, it's pretty easy to go back and point that out, if that's the case, which it isn't. So I'm not really seeing your point.
    Post edited by holdenfive on
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 204
    4507 said:

    You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content. 

    You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place. 
    Wow, way to move the goal post. You've realized that you were wrong but are refusing to admit it and instead starting a completely different argument. This is why I hate arguing on forums...

    Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics). 
    It's hilarious that you're saying I was wrong, and your second paragraph here not only restates my initial point, that you can't stop people from RMT, I only went on to say that I don't blame developers for embracing it to a certain extent, but also renders your prior argument about 'enforcement and punishment' irrelevant because you're conceding that it's going to happen anyways as long as there is trading in the game.

     I haven't moved the goal posts, I just have no interest in debating the merits of your idea that developers can in fact shut that shit down if they just put the effort into it. Because it's not realistic and I would prefer to not even acknowledge that argument because it's pretty embarassing to even talk about. It's like a 3 year olds reasoning that wars would just stop happening if people sat down and talked about things. Because it fundamentally ignores what we know about human beings and the subject matter, it's not worth talking about. So I shifted my focus from the effect to the cause, because that is something we actually can control to a certain extent.

    Who is really at fault, the useless kid or the parents who are enablers and allow them to be useless? Gamers are the useless kid and developers are the enablers. You can feign ignorance all you want and avoid taking responsibility for your actions, as gamers, and just blame developers because they're supposed to know better than offer RMT when you're perfectly willing to pay for it. But that's bullshit, you know it's bullshit, and until you acknowledge that there isn't much to discuss. 
    No, I'm saying that there will always be people willing to engage in RWT, not that it's unpreventable. It's the same way that there will always be people willing to go on a crime spree, but if you offer sufficient enforcement and punishment for such actions, crime sprees are preventable as long as the enforcement does not lapse (during a riot or blackout, for example).

    You, however, have just contradicted yourself in saying that RWT will happen regardless of progression system. What happened to vertical progression being the great evil behind all RWT? Oh, that's right - you realized it was an indefensible position so you abandoned it.

    No, you couldn't think of a counter-argument when you realized that you were wrong about enforcement and punishment being unfeasible.

    You need to spend a few minutes sorting out your argument, because your incoherence and cognitive dissonance is frankly shocking.
    holdenfive
  • xonedlxonedl KuchingMember UncommonPosts: 17
    edited December 3
    As title says. Is pay for convenience the new pay to win? Many MMOs are offering advantages to skipping content, easier leveling, access to endgame year, great items/vehicles/ships/mounts etc.

    Generally, yes. But that short answer isn't accurate presenting what I'm thinking.

    I don't care about P2W. If people can burn $$$$$$ into a game, good for them. In fact I encourage them to do that, so I can play the game for free.

    The problem comes, when developer decide to lock game mechanism & contents behind paywall. For example skill reset, inventory slot, costume, etc, AND not giving any alternative to acquire them in-game with in-game currency. Basically screwing free-players. That's what happening for most MMOs nowadays.

    If those cash shop items can be reasonably acquired by just playing the game, and cash shop don't invade the game too much, I generally don't mind about it. But cash shop nowadays pretty much invade every possible game aspect... which is annoying.
    Post edited by xonedl on
    Daakkon
  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 151
    edited December 3
    4507 said:
    4507 said:

    You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content. 

    You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place. 
    Wow, way to move the goal post. You've realized that you were wrong but are refusing to admit it and instead starting a completely different argument. This is why I hate arguing on forums...

    Regardlessly though, you're wrong again with this. As long as a game has trading, there will be people willing to pay real money for gold/items in-game. It doesn't matter if the game has vertical progression (where they'll buy raw power), horizontal progression (where they'll buy flexibility), or even no progression (where they'll buy cosmetics). 
    It's hilarious that you're saying I was wrong, and your second paragraph here not only restates my initial point, that you can't stop people from RMT, I only went on to say that I don't blame developers for embracing it to a certain extent, but also renders your prior argument about 'enforcement and punishment' irrelevant because you're conceding that it's going to happen anyways as long as there is trading in the game.

     I haven't moved the goal posts, I just have no interest in debating the merits of your idea that developers can in fact shut that shit down if they just put the effort into it. Because it's not realistic and I would prefer to not even acknowledge that argument because it's pretty embarassing to even talk about. It's like a 3 year olds reasoning that wars would just stop happening if people sat down and talked about things. Because it fundamentally ignores what we know about human beings and the subject matter, it's not worth talking about. So I shifted my focus from the effect to the cause, because that is something we actually can control to a certain extent.

    Who is really at fault, the useless kid or the parents who are enablers and allow them to be useless? Gamers are the useless kid and developers are the enablers. You can feign ignorance all you want and avoid taking responsibility for your actions, as gamers, and just blame developers because they're supposed to know better than offer RMT when you're perfectly willing to pay for it. But that's bullshit, you know it's bullshit, and until you acknowledge that there isn't much to discuss. 
    No, I'm saying that there will always be people willing to engage in RWT, not that it's unpreventable. It's the same way that there will always be people willing to go on a crime spree, but if you offer sufficient enforcement and punishment for such actions, crime sprees are preventable as long as the enforcement does not lapse (during a riot or blackout, for example).

    You, however, have just contradicted yourself in saying that RWT will happen regardless of progression system. What happened to vertical progression being the great evil behind all RWT? Oh, that's right - you realized it was an indefensible position so you abandoned it.

    No, you couldn't think of a counter-argument when you realized that you were wrong about enforcement and punishment being unfeasible.

    You need to spend a few minutes sorting out your argument, because your incoherence and cognitive dissonance is frankly shocking.
    It is unpreventable, period. The only thing you've said thus far that's anywhere close to addressing the issue is when you said that as long as their is trading in the game, there will be RMT. Eliminating trading still doesn't get it entirely out of the way or anything, people can still sell accounts, but it eliminates most of what people would bitch about at least.

    Guess what, you just drove a massive truck through your own analogy that according to you I'm having so much trouble getting around. We have police, we have laws, and crime sprees still happen......just lol. Just like you can do both against RMT in an MMO and they both will still happen. The reason why I'm ignoring your reasoning, like I've already said, is not because it's rock solid, it's because you're deluded and I feel sorry for you. Present a better argument if you want me to acknowledge it, your reasoning thus far isn't even worth my time. 

    I never contradicted myself. RMT will always happen. I've never really said otherwise. What I've said is the environment in MMO design encourages it, and that design is based around the way people largely play the games. Gamers are obsessed with the idea of progression rather than depth. So you get what you wanted and the games are designed around that. If you want to foster an environment that does not actively encourage RMT, then focus more on the experience rather than having the latest and greatest as quickly and easily as possible. You've cultivated that environment for years through your gameplay, and you reap what you sow.

    It's not possible for a 3rd party to sell you an experience outside the game, they can only sell you virtual posessions. By focusing more on the gameplay itself as the reward rather than the materialistic reward, you've already rendered most RMT redundant. Simple. And in my view also done your part to encourage meaningful game design. 

     I've never condracited that, you've never shown how that is wrong, you've just acted like a child without an argument and said repeatedly that I apparently know how wrong I am. lol Who are you trying to convince? I just defeated your paragraphs of ill advised analogies and tangents with one sentence earlier, if my reasoning is so bad you should be able to do the same I'd say. But you can't because to even consider that as a possibility already takes your blame game off of developers and forces you to examine your own behaviour. You can't do it because that's too uncomfortable, and that's fine. But next time you want to say that I believe I'm wrong, it'd be helpful if you'd at least go through the trouble of showing how I'm wrong first yourself, rather than cowering out of that and claiming to know the other person's thoughts like you're omnipotent, despite the fact you don't have an argument.

    /waits for the massive amount of projection that will inevitably come as a response.
    Post edited by holdenfive on
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