So you are happy with the direction It's going?

123457

Comments

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    Flyte27 said:

    I actually agree with you about something!

    I too thought Stranger Things was overrated, still a good watch but nothing particularly special. But then, I don't really like the 80s, so the nostalgia didn't touch me. 


    Man in the High Castle was definitely superior, but like a lot of big budget productions it suffered from really slow pacing. I found that when I tried to watch it one episode at a time, I was constantly waiting for things to actually happen, but when I binge watched it I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more. 
    Just reading the description of Man in High Castle makes me feel like I don't want to watch it.  It sounds too serious for escapism.  If I am going to watch something serious it might as well be a documentary about something of that nature.  At least the story and information are usually real. 

    I often do that for the same reason (documentaries)

    That said Man in the High Castle is exceptionally good. 

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001

    I think I've gained some of my ability to be persuasive, funny, and aware of body language from tv and movies.  Certainly tv has a huge impact on what people dress like.  But you're talking to a woman who has dressed like a hippie, goth, or punk at various points in high school and college.  ;)  I've had my hair black, red, blue-green, purple, in a mohawk, down to my hips...

    wow .. now i have more respect for you. I have never dressed beyond the narrow parameters of "business casual" for decades :(
    So you were influenced Alex P. Keaton in Family Ties. You didn't even know it.
    cheyaneKyleranbartoni33
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,867
    The only difference in Total War that disqualifies it under your description is that units are recruited directly through the general/commander as opposed to through a building.  Still requires buildings to recruit units, including advanced units.

    That doesn't seem like a huge difference to me.  The way battles play out seems to be a much larger difference between Total War and other RTSs.
    Not really the point I was going for. The point I was going for is with any Age of Empires / Starcraft clone style RTS I can describe a general process they all follow from the start to the end of a match and be fairly specific about it at points, and you won't know if I'm describing an Age of Empires Game, StarCraft, Command and Conquer, Empire Earth etc. because they all play out the same general way from start to finish. They are clone titles.

    Sure there are some differences. For instance in Age of Empires you advance through ages while in StarCraft upgrades to your command center / hive / nexus are the closest things and aren't nearly as big of a deal. In Age of Empires you have a large amount of civilizations with only a few key differences while in Starcraft you have 3 very unique races that all play very differently.

    But the features which unite these titles are greater than the ones that divide them.

    WoW, ESO, SWTOR etc. all play out the same way. They are games built on the same basic framework that follow the same basic model from start to finish with a few key differences.

    I simply used that example because is the first feature in a long list of processes that are different for Total War games and Age of Empires, and the same for Age of Empires and other titles that are clones. (Reluctant to say Age of Empires Clone because I'm not sure if Warcraft or AoE came first or if they ripped the model off something else entirely, and unlike with WoW no single title has really made itself the single undisputable king of that series of clones.)
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 1,723
    centkin said:
    What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster.  There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now. 

    We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
    Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help.  We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed.  We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
    Mendel
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,870
    centkin said:
    What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster.  There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now. 

    We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
    Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help.  We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed.  We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
    Very true, @sunandshadow.  There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt.  The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate.  Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 16,435
    edited December 7
    Mendel said:
    centkin said:
    What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster.  There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now. 

    We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
    Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help.  We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed.  We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
    Very true, @sunandshadow.  There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt.  The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate.  Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?
    actually games are, just not in the AAA market. I hate to sound like a broken record but its true.
    yes the graphics are generally not the same but believe me, the feature list blows the fuck away AAA
    Post edited by SEANMCAD on

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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,827
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Kyleran said:


    lol .. are we talking about entertainment here? I am glad they don't "influence much more of our lives". 
    For those of us who grew up in the 80s and 90s, TV influenced our lives a ton.  Entertainment shapes culture.

    But is that a good thing? Do you talk like a tv character? Or dress like one? Don't get me wrong, i do enjoy a good tv show. But i was not going to start befriending 13 years old girls and hide them in a cabin just because that seems cool on The Stranger Things season 2. 
    While Stranger Things is great and all, can't say I would be adverse to befriending a few hot female prison inmates

    "I'll be back" c'mon who doesn't love quoting famous movie lines

    "Not even in the face of Armageddon"

    B)
    Stranger Things is far over rated. 
    Its not bad...but it doesnt rise to the quality of its fame by a long shot. All my personal friends (yes its true I have them) agree
    Reminds me those guys who were like "I don't understand all my relatives and friends voted for Clinton, how could Trump have won?" ;)
    wat?

    no I was just pointing out that I am not the only person on the planet who thinks its over rated and all my friends thought the same thing independently which is EXTREEMLY statically unlikely to happen in a micro-vacuum.

    regardless. yes the majority of people love it, but the reality is the plot and story line is really not that amazing.

    if you want something more intresting let me know I have a good list :)
    I don't watch it myself, tried a couple of episodes and got bored.
    I was just pointing out that the fact your relatives don't like (or like) something rarely makes it a generality.

    I personally prefer series like Game of Thrones, Frontier, The Last Kingdom, Outlander, Westworld, Star Trek Discovery, etc...
    Where you lived growing up instead of riding around on BMX bikes and battling evil aliens and government agents like we did children were probably seiging castles and battling evil religious orders like the Dark Templars.

    ;)
    TorvalJean-Luc_Picard

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,827
    edited December 7
    SEANMCAD said:
    Mendel said:
    centkin said:
    What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster.  There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now. 

    We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
    Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help.  We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed.  We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
    Very true, @sunandshadow.  There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt.  The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate.  Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?
    actually games are, just not in the AAA market. I hate to sound like a broken record but its true.
    yes the graphics are generally not the same but believe me, the feature list blows the fuck away AAA
    Indie market have anything like Fallout NV or Fallout 4?

    Might need a new game soon.
    Post edited by Kyleran on

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Torval said:

    wow .. now i have more respect for you. I have never dressed beyond the narrow parameters of "business casual" for decades :(
    So you were influenced Alex P. Keaton in Family Ties. You didn't even know it.
    lol .. of course you assume I watched Family Ties. May be i only watched star trek TNG and figured that has little to do with real life. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    SEANMCAD said:

    your love for the show (as well as most people) is not because of the plot or story but rather because of nostalgia for what feels now like a better time.

    Wrong assumption .. at least about me. I love the show because of good characters, and cool moments like eleven can snap necks with just a flick of her head. The show can be set in 2017 or 1950, and I probably will still love it.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    Torval said:

    wow .. now i have more respect for you. I have never dressed beyond the narrow parameters of "business casual" for decades :(
    So you were influenced Alex P. Keaton in Family Ties. You didn't even know it.
    lol .. of course you assume I watched Family Ties. May be i only watched star trek TNG and figured that has little to do with real life. 
    It's okay. I was trying to give you a semi complement there because it was a good show. I could have used Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons instead. :lol: Even I'm not that mean. :innocent:
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Torval said:
    Torval said:

    wow .. now i have more respect for you. I have never dressed beyond the narrow parameters of "business casual" for decades :(
    So you were influenced Alex P. Keaton in Family Ties. You didn't even know it.
    lol .. of course you assume I watched Family Ties. May be i only watched star trek TNG and figured that has little to do with real life. 
    It's okay. I was trying to give you a semi complement there because it was a good show. I could have used Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons instead. :lol: Even I'm not that mean. :innocent:

    haha .. thank you! Actually to be honest, i *did* watch Family Ties and love the Alex Keaton character. So you may actually be right.

    Silver spoons .. not so much. Now i am to admit that while i don't dress up as Picard, i did have a Picard action figure in my collection. I will vehemently deny that is a "strong influence" on my life though ... lol. 
    Torval
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,908
    Robokapp said:


    And those are also games classified as MMOs on the gamelist of this site. Sure, we can add online poker if you define them as MMOs too.
    not by us as players so it makes no difference.
    who are "us"? Players do not agree. Just go back and read some of the "MMO classification" topics.

    If you go by the players, there is no consensus definition, unless by "us players", you mean "you". 
    this thread proves otherwise.
    Kyleran

    image

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,827
    Robokapp said:
    Robokapp said:


    And those are also games classified as MMOs on the gamelist of this site. Sure, we can add online poker if you define them as MMOs too.
    not by us as players so it makes no difference.
    who are "us"? Players do not agree. Just go back and read some of the "MMO classification" topics.

    If you go by the players, there is no consensus definition, unless by "us players", you mean "you". 
    this thread proves otherwise.
    Nari doesn't know language as well as "us."

    He mistakes it for "everyone" when in fact it is defined as:

    "Used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people as the object of a verb or preposition."

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us

    Clearly your views represent more than just yourself, so the usage of "us" is correct.


    MaurgrimJean-Luc_Picard

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,741
    Mendel said:
    centkin said:
    What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster.  There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now. 

    We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
    Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help.  We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed.  We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
    Very true, @sunandshadow.  There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt.  The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate.  Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?
    I disagree. 

    I am a software developer. I have worked on everything from large defence contracts through to small websites. I have also worked for a good games company, admittedly in QA rather than dev, but I hung out with the devs a lot. 


    Hardware is still a very real limitation. You would probably be shocked at just how many calculations are going on every second when playing a game. It is staggering! Not only is the volume staggering, but it all has to be perfectly timed otherwise everything falls apart. 


    The real barrier to improvement is on the software end. Not in terms of designing interesting things, there are plenty of capable devs for that, but in terms of how we do the fundamentals. I'll give you an example. 

    Games are sequential - one thing follows another - so timing is extremely crucial to a game running properly. I cannot calculate whether I have shot you before I have calculated where I am aiming, then where you are moving, then whether there is a collision or not. It is thus vitally important that calculations happen in the right order. 

    What this means is that most games still only utilise a single core on your processor. This is the easiest way to ensure the correct order is followed. Multi-threading (calculations being done on different cores) is an extremely complicated thing to get correct - not due to the hardware, but due to writing the software properly. So, I have a quad-core processor, but most games only use one core. That one core typically sits at 90-95% load whilst the other 3 idle at 20-30%. The software is causing me to hit a hardware limitation. 

    This gives us the illusion that buying new processors means we're getting more performance, but for gaming that isn't true. We are still hitting hardware limitations on a per-core basis and will continue to do so until game engines improve. This is obviously a generalisation - some games do utilise multi-threading.



  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTMember RarePosts: 4,170
    Mendel said:
    centkin said:
    What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster.  There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now. 

    We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
    Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help.  We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed.  We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
    Very true, @sunandshadow.  There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt.  The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate.  Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?
    I disagree. 

    I am a software developer. I have worked on everything from large defence contracts through to small websites. I have also worked for a good games company, admittedly in QA rather than dev, but I hung out with the devs a lot. 


    Hardware is still a very real limitation. You would probably be shocked at just how many calculations are going on every second when playing a game. It is staggering! Not only is the volume staggering, but it all has to be perfectly timed otherwise everything falls apart. 


    The real barrier to improvement is on the software end. Not in terms of designing interesting things, there are plenty of capable devs for that, but in terms of how we do the fundamentals. I'll give you an example. 

    Games are sequential - one thing follows another - so timing is extremely crucial to a game running properly. I cannot calculate whether I have shot you before I have calculated where I am aiming, then where you are moving, then whether there is a collision or not. It is thus vitally important that calculations happen in the right order. 

    What this means is that most games still only utilise a single core on your processor. This is the easiest way to ensure the correct order is followed. Multi-threading (calculations being done on different cores) is an extremely complicated thing to get correct - not due to the hardware, but due to writing the software properly. So, I have a quad-core processor, but most games only use one core. That one core typically sits at 90-95% load whilst the other 3 idle at 20-30%. The software is causing me to hit a hardware limitation. 

    This gives us the illusion that buying new processors means we're getting more performance, but for gaming that isn't true. We are still hitting hardware limitations on a per-core basis and will continue to do so until game engines improve. This is obviously a generalisation - some games do utilise multi-threading.



    CPU intensive calculations seem to be apparent in a game like Civilization.  As you progress through the game it can take quite a while to get to the next turn even with a powerful CPU.

    I've tried some multithreading myself in Windows via both the Windows API and.NET.  I find it fairly confusing.  Especially when you need to move data between threads.  To me, some things in programming appear to be made overly complex.  Timing things is confusing as well.  It seems odd that you can tie up the main message loop in an application if something takes a while for the CPU to finish processing.  I find it is almost required for doing anything regarding connecting to remote computers.  If you try retrieving data on a remote computer with WMI in .NET and don't use a thread your application will freeze for a while there is an error connecting or retrieving the data.
    Kyleran
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Robokapp said:
    Robokapp said:


    And those are also games classified as MMOs on the gamelist of this site. Sure, we can add online poker if you define them as MMOs too.
    not by us as players so it makes no difference.
    who are "us"? Players do not agree. Just go back and read some of the "MMO classification" topics.

    If you go by the players, there is no consensus definition, unless by "us players", you mean "you". 
    this thread proves otherwise.
    What consensus .. in fact, didn't many of you disagree of how MMO is defined by THIS SITE?
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,995
    I disagree. 

    I am a software developer. I have worked on everything from large defence contracts through to small websites. I have also worked for a good games company, admittedly in QA rather than dev, but I hung out with the devs a lot. 


    Hardware is still a very real limitation. You would probably be shocked at just how many calculations are going on every second when playing a game. It is staggering! Not only is the volume staggering, but it all has to be perfectly timed otherwise everything falls apart. 


    The real barrier to improvement is on the software end. Not in terms of designing interesting things, there are plenty of capable devs for that, but in terms of how we do the fundamentals. I'll give you an example. 

    Games are sequential - one thing follows another - so timing is extremely crucial to a game running properly. I cannot calculate whether I have shot you before I have calculated where I am aiming, then where you are moving, then whether there is a collision or not. It is thus vitally important that calculations happen in the right order. 

    What this means is that most games still only utilise a single core on your processor. This is the easiest way to ensure the correct order is followed. Multi-threading (calculations being done on different cores) is an extremely complicated thing to get correct - not due to the hardware, but due to writing the software properly. So, I have a quad-core processor, but most games only use one core. That one core typically sits at 90-95% load whilst the other 3 idle at 20-30%. The software is causing me to hit a hardware limitation. 

    This gives us the illusion that buying new processors means we're getting more performance, but for gaming that isn't true. We are still hitting hardware limitations on a per-core basis and will continue to do so until game engines improve. This is obviously a generalisation - some games do utilise multi-threading.
    Some games are CPU heavier then others but you certainly have a point, even though the CPUs are far more powerful we can't use all that power in the same way as we did when we just had a single core.

    The graphics card is another matter but since games tend to improve the graphics as the cards improve it limits what can be done.

    In any case does most devs aim for a game that can run on most computers (not just on a few state of the art) since they want to maximize their potential playerbase and that means they will technologicalla speaking not use that much resources.

    Now, If VR actually becomes something people feel they must have (with good enough games) enough of the gamers would likely upgrade so their computers can run far better looking games just like many gamers got 3D graphics cards rather fast after they came out but we still would get a lot of limitations.

    What we really need to break all this is nano, or even better quark scale computers. Something that makes modern computers as obsolete as the microship did to vacuum tubes way back.

    Of course there is a lot more you could get out of modern computers, at least in theory. The Commodore 64 certainly used a lot higher percentage of it's power but I fear we would need a far better OS for that, something custom made for games. And yes, that is incredible hard and expensive or someone would already have done it.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    edited December 9
    Flyte27 said:
    Mendel said:
    centkin said:
    What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster.  There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now. 

    We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
    Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help.  We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed.  We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
    Very true, @sunandshadow.  There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt.  The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate.  Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?
    I disagree. 

    I am a software developer. I have worked on everything from large defence contracts through to small websites. I have also worked for a good games company, admittedly in QA rather than dev, but I hung out with the devs a lot. 


    Hardware is still a very real limitation. You would probably be shocked at just how many calculations are going on every second when playing a game. It is staggering! Not only is the volume staggering, but it all has to be perfectly timed otherwise everything falls apart. 


    The real barrier to improvement is on the software end. Not in terms of designing interesting things, there are plenty of capable devs for that, but in terms of how we do the fundamentals. I'll give you an example. 

    Games are sequential - one thing follows another - so timing is extremely crucial to a game running properly. I cannot calculate whether I have shot you before I have calculated where I am aiming, then where you are moving, then whether there is a collision or not. It is thus vitally important that calculations happen in the right order. 

    What this means is that most games still only utilise a single core on your processor. This is the easiest way to ensure the correct order is followed. Multi-threading (calculations being done on different cores) is an extremely complicated thing to get correct - not due to the hardware, but due to writing the software properly. So, I have a quad-core processor, but most games only use one core. That one core typically sits at 90-95% load whilst the other 3 idle at 20-30%. The software is causing me to hit a hardware limitation. 

    This gives us the illusion that buying new processors means we're getting more performance, but for gaming that isn't true. We are still hitting hardware limitations on a per-core basis and will continue to do so until game engines improve. This is obviously a generalisation - some games do utilise multi-threading.



    CPU intensive calculations seem to be apparent in a game like Civilization.  As you progress through the game it can take quite a while to get to the next turn even with a powerful CPU.

    I've tried some multithreading myself in Windows via both the Windows API and.NET.  I find it fairly confusing.  Especially when you need to move data between threads.  To me, some things in programming appear to be made overly complex.  Timing things is confusing as well.  It seems odd that you can tie up the main message loop in an application if something takes a while for the CPU to finish processing.  I find it is almost required for doing anything regarding connecting to remote computers.  If you try retrieving data on a remote computer with WMI in .NET and don't use a thread your application will freeze for a while there is an error connecting or retrieving the data.
    A key trick to parallelization. in my opinion, is understanding the problem and if resolving it in parallel will help. It makes sense that if you're single threaded and do a lot of work in that thread that the other elements will wait for their own timeslice. Put your work in another thread.

    It just illustrates how complicated doing simple things can be and how many fringe cases need to be handled gracefully so your app doesn't suck. :smiley: There is a difference between a software engineer and a programmer in my opinion. I'm a programmer, not a software engineer. I don't want to be a software engineer *shudder*.

    Games and MMOs in particular are probably some of the most complex software systems. The amount of synchronization and what it takes to pull that kind of thing off amazes me. If I ever got into that end of development (which I'm too old for now) I'd want to do world building, quest, and story scripting. I'd want nothing to do with engine work or trying to hammer out the most efficient SQL execution plans.
    Post edited by Torval on
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  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 13,175
    I am tired so the word i seek is elusive...hmm

    Well the opposite of a pessimist,i had high hopes for the market and how much they would evolve.

    I guess what nobody figured was the high cost of inflation,i mean i remember 30 cents a gallon let alone 1.15 a litre for gas and a choco bar was a nickle.
    Point being,most of the big studios have the knowledge ,the people but either don't have the money or won't commit that much money so instead look for designs that are cost effective.

    I see 99% are cheap cost effective games,so i obviously get miffed when i see some BS scores and reviews handing out 8's or 9's for HALF ASSED corner cutting work.

    The industry is capable of giving us that absolutely drop dead gorgeous ,amazing full of content game but they won't.So do we continue to pay PRO money for amateur game design,i guess seeing the market of late,we do keep paying for sub par game design because nobody is pushing the market.

    Too bad really,i had very high hopes,back in the early 80's.. 90's.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 2,525
    laxie said:
    I miss the social aspect and the longevity of the communities. Gone are the days where you could play one MMO with the same people for 5+ years.


    Good. I don't play games for community and people. I treat most other players as NPCs anyway. If i want to make friends, i have plenty in real life. 
    and this is exactly why the genre is where it is today, and why we have no AAA MMOs being made anymore.
    What are you talking about? Wasn't Destiny 2 just got released? Don't tell me it is not AAA.

    And yeah .. the genre is exactly where i like it to be today. More fun, less grind, no dependency on others for fun. 
    Their aren't MMORPGs being made anymore is what he is meaning. 

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,649
    Mendel said:
    centkin said:
    What has mostly happened to the progression of MMORPGs is that computers stopped getting faster.  There were a lot of good ideas, that were implausible back in the day and still implausible now. 

    We won't see much improvement until computers actually make a leap in something more meaningful than graphics.
    Things besides graphics aren't dependant on hardware speed though, so I'm not sure why you think more would help.  We've got enough hardware for good physics simulation, or for better AI if that existed.  We've got more than enough hardware for interactive story, intricate game mechanics, voice chat, deeply developed NPCs, less predictable monsters...
    Very true, @sunandshadow.  There is plenty of hardware on the client end to do much more elaborate things than games attempt.  The problem, in my view, is that games aren't attempting to do anything more elaborate.  Processing power is adequate for much more difficult applications, why haven't we seen game developers attempt anything that can't be reproduced with analog dice?
    I disagree. 

    I am a software developer. I have worked on everything from large defence contracts through to small websites. I have also worked for a good games company, admittedly in QA rather than dev, but I hung out with the devs a lot. 


    Hardware is still a very real limitation. You would probably be shocked at just how many calculations are going on every second when playing a game. It is staggering! Not only is the volume staggering, but it all has to be perfectly timed otherwise everything falls apart. 


    The real barrier to improvement is on the software end. Not in terms of designing interesting things, there are plenty of capable devs for that, but in terms of how we do the fundamentals. I'll give you an example. 

    Games are sequential - one thing follows another - so timing is extremely crucial to a game running properly. I cannot calculate whether I have shot you before I have calculated where I am aiming, then where you are moving, then whether there is a collision or not. It is thus vitally important that calculations happen in the right order. 

    What this means is that most games still only utilise a single core on your processor. This is the easiest way to ensure the correct order is followed. Multi-threading (calculations being done on different cores) is an extremely complicated thing to get correct - not due to the hardware, but due to writing the software properly. So, I have a quad-core processor, but most games only use one core. That one core typically sits at 90-95% load whilst the other 3 idle at 20-30%. The software is causing me to hit a hardware limitation. 

    This gives us the illusion that buying new processors means we're getting more performance, but for gaming that isn't true. We are still hitting hardware limitations on a per-core basis and will continue to do so until game engines improve. This is obviously a generalisation - some games do utilise multi-threading.

    Maybe that was true 10 years ago, but not nowadays.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    laxie said:
    I miss the social aspect and the longevity of the communities. Gone are the days where you could play one MMO with the same people for 5+ years.


    Good. I don't play games for community and people. I treat most other players as NPCs anyway. If i want to make friends, i have plenty in real life. 
    and this is exactly why the genre is where it is today, and why we have no AAA MMOs being made anymore.
    What are you talking about? Wasn't Destiny 2 just got released? Don't tell me it is not AAA.

    And yeah .. the genre is exactly where i like it to be today. More fun, less grind, no dependency on others for fun. 
    Their aren't MMORPGs being made anymore is what he is meaning. 
    If he means "MMORPGs" instead of "MMOs", may be he should be more careful with his words and say so. I thought people here cares about accurate usage of their words .. i guess that does not apply to some.

    Plus, i have no obligation to "guess" what he actually means, instead of just go by his words. 
    Kyleran
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,908
    laxie said:
    I miss the social aspect and the longevity of the communities. Gone are the days where you could play one MMO with the same people for 5+ years.


    Good. I don't play games for community and people. I treat most other players as NPCs anyway. If i want to make friends, i have plenty in real life. 
    and this is exactly why the genre is where it is today, and why we have no AAA MMOs being made anymore.
    What are you talking about? Wasn't Destiny 2 just got released? Don't tell me it is not AAA.

    And yeah .. the genre is exactly where i like it to be today. More fun, less grind, no dependency on others for fun. 
    Their aren't MMORPGs being made anymore is what he is meaning. 
    If he means "MMORPGs" instead of "MMOs", may be he should be more careful with his words and say so. I thought people here cares about accurate usage of their words .. i guess that does not apply to some.

    Plus, i have no obligation to "guess" what he actually means, instead of just go by his words. 
    troll2
    trōl/
    verb
    gerund or present participle: trolling
    1. 1.
      informal
      make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
      "if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,651
    Robokapp said:

    troll2
    trōl/
    verb
    gerund or present participle: trolling
    1. 1.
      informal
      make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
      "if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"

    wow .. you just describe what you are trying to do to me.

    But .. i am the bigger man. I am not going to be angry. I am just going to be amused. In fact, i am shocked that you will twist my post about using accurate language, which MANY has done so before here, to something twisted (see my pun there!).

    So let me ask you this .. do you disagree that language should be used accurately? Or that you do not think there is a difference between MMO and MMORPG?
    MendelKyleran
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