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Do MMOs need character progression systems?
laxie
Member RarePosts: 1,118
Bear with me here. I'd be very curious what you all think about this.
Most MMOs out there come with a character progression feature. Your character does an activity, some number in the background increases and your character becomes better. Be it by linear levels in WoW, allocatable skill points, skills that train as you use them (e.g. Ultima Online) or passively trained skills akin to EVE. All of these systems and games are vastly different, but they all have the growth of a character in common.
On the other hand, there have been games where no character growth is present. Openly sandbox games like Second Life, where the sense of "progression" comes from building social connections. Exploration driven games, where you learn about the world, but the character stays the same. Or games like Star Citizen, where your "progression" is largely measured by wealth and player skill.
My question is this:
Suppose you have a social MMO. You harvest, craft, claim land and build. You form guilds, grow a business and work on large community milestones. The crafting has a player-skill component to it, so you as a player learn how to do it better, which ingredients work best. You learn about trade routes or how to optimise your NPC run factories. Clearly, there is progression going on. A player starts as a nobody. Looking back at your early days, 3 months into the game, you will see turning from a street urchin to an owner of a powerful trade empire. Your position in the society moves up.
But there are no levels, no skills that your character increases. You get better by understanding the systems better, and by owning more stuff, but a 1-year-old veteran character will craft the same item as a fresh one (provided you use the same crappy process).
Will the lack of numerical character progression be a deal breaker?
Would players leave the game, because there is no number reminding them that they are progressing? Would players get confused, because after a play session, they can't point to a number and say "Aha, this is what I did today. I can't wait to push that further tomorrow!"
Most MMOs out there come with a character progression feature. Your character does an activity, some number in the background increases and your character becomes better. Be it by linear levels in WoW, allocatable skill points, skills that train as you use them (e.g. Ultima Online) or passively trained skills akin to EVE. All of these systems and games are vastly different, but they all have the growth of a character in common.
On the other hand, there have been games where no character growth is present. Openly sandbox games like Second Life, where the sense of "progression" comes from building social connections. Exploration driven games, where you learn about the world, but the character stays the same. Or games like Star Citizen, where your "progression" is largely measured by wealth and player skill.
My question is this:
Suppose you have a social MMO. You harvest, craft, claim land and build. You form guilds, grow a business and work on large community milestones. The crafting has a player-skill component to it, so you as a player learn how to do it better, which ingredients work best. You learn about trade routes or how to optimise your NPC run factories. Clearly, there is progression going on. A player starts as a nobody. Looking back at your early days, 3 months into the game, you will see turning from a street urchin to an owner of a powerful trade empire. Your position in the society moves up.
But there are no levels, no skills that your character increases. You get better by understanding the systems better, and by owning more stuff, but a 1-year-old veteran character will craft the same item as a fresh one (provided you use the same crappy process).
Will the lack of numerical character progression be a deal breaker?
Would players leave the game, because there is no number reminding them that they are progressing? Would players get confused, because after a play session, they can't point to a number and say "Aha, this is what I did today. I can't wait to push that further tomorrow!"
Comments
MMO's which exist in a persistent world would be pretty boring if there were no progression at all. With nothing to work towards, with no goals, what would be the point? I don't think it needs to be represented by numbers on a character sheet, but clear progression has to be seen somehow, be it wealth, territory controlled, something tangible according to the game's theme and design.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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Progression systems are important to me and simply earning money isn't really enough of a draw.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I was a member of Gaia Online for years; before they added their MMORPG-section zOMG, Gaia was a sort-of-MMO with no progression besides wealth. But the primary reason everyone was there was to post on the forum. The "earn money to buy clothes for your avatar" system was a toy that helped retain people and gave them a currency to pay each other for small tasks with, but that's about all.
I also spent a couple weeks playing Myst Uru Online - that had no real character progression because Adventure games generally don't, instead the progression was gated by solving puzzles, because that's what adventure games do. But the game didn't seem to have enough content for more than a few weeks of classic adventure game play.
I also draw the line on FAKE progression,like what Eve does by simply putting a check mark in a box,that is like the lowest form of design possible,a 0/10 idea.
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But the real challenge in EVE isn't training skills, it's learning how to put them to best use.
Some people become masters at this, I'm definitely not at that level.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMORPGs.....different matter. I don't think they necessarily need character progression, but they should really contain progression of some sort. Progression is the carrot that keeps people playing for longer. Progression also often changes the way the game plays, keeping it fresh and interesting.
I think a lot of people would struggle with the system you have described (building a trade empire) but there would probably be a sufficient market to make a niche game like that.
Have not yet though. Maybe there is hope?
Nah there is really none for me or the human race.
MMORPGs do need a progression system.
Some MMOs listed on this site's gamelist has no progression system anyway. Overwatch is an example.
I believe that MMOs and/or MMORPGs don't need character progression or at least not the type of never ending vertical progression they usually have. In fact, I would say that the "living world" MMO that some people on this site like to talk about can never happen if it has endless vertical progression.
Whether it would work or not would depend on how it's done. I have ideas about this but it seems pointless to ramble on about it so I won't.
They have already cut down the progression from 6-9 months in games like EQ to a couple off weeks and leveling is turning more and more into a tutorial while the progression is more and more about gear.
There are other progressions that could work as well. You could have a realm progression (think a CIV like MMO where your realm becomes bigger and more advanced giving it's members access to new tech) or having a guild progression instead where you and the other members levels the guild.
I think the important thing is that we have something to work for to keep people interested in a MMO for more then a short while.
And even character progression could be handled in many other ways then levels, it has just become popular since it is so simple.
A game without any progression isn't a game at all, it's just a VR social space.
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For instance if you have a system where some "truths" are different for different characters, you're going to have a system where trial and error is needed to do the same thing as someone else. Which also means that based on what someone learned (Trialed and Errored) how to use will cause them to play differently, and/or that they can do some things cheaper than average again causing different play.
In some cases the act of customizing and tweaking a system to work how you want it to can act as a tech tree, leveling (since you have older work that is worse but was used to get you here), and/or character customization. Getting your forge to the perfect point to have the right combination of speed/waste/quality/fuel use, and then you need to combine that with every other crafting station/step you need to use that also has it's own settings.
In some cases doing things the "right way" could be pretty onerous. But just to get it done well you're able to skip some steps, which ends up meaning you have different people playing different (similarly to class play). This is especially true in complex puzzle games IE: Zachtronics games when you want the story or access to the next tool.
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The tricky part is understanding what it does and what it is for, and then deciding if it is for you or not. It isn't something that can be tacked on afterwards. It has to be a core design philosophy. This separates the games that have it as a an actual system that requires thought, or the games that have it for a little flavor and feel it justifies the including rpg as a genre descriptor.
Most triple AAA games and Asian games have it in a flavor-only capacity that does not allow you to gimp your character. These games also have pre-designed characters you are forced to play and a set story-line. These games also usually have very thinking lite philosophy to them. They are made to be as passive as possible, like a movie or book. You ride along with the story.
The games I like really put effort into me creating my own story. try to allow me to create my own narrative. They are active games and require thinking and foresight. This is also usually reflected in the character generation and development system. And these games usually have combat that requires thinking. It is possible to make a gimp character that completely stinks. It is possible to be trounced in combat. It is possible to paint yourself into a corner plot wise.
The games I like are not popular because the budget usually goes into the game and systems, and not graphics and voice overs. Also, children find these games to be impossible to play. There is no AAA game that will be made with systems complex enough to not include children into the market. Today's market includes such esteemed factors as deciding if a game is good by seeing how many people are watching other people play it online. I find it hard to believe adults do this outside of very specific scenarios of information gathering or watching competitions of the best players. Only kids could ever tolerate just watching other people play a video game online for no reason other than supposed entertainment. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.
For me, a game with no decent and impactful character development is not worth playing. In the larger market, most people would think the games I like are unplayable due to the graphics or the requirement to think and plan and be an active participant and not have a story narrated to you.
I think progression is an inherent part of life. Even if you can't replace the Green Sword of Average with the Blue Sword of Greatness, you're still going to be progressing. I don't think it has anything to do with numerical or not numerical but has everything to do with how successful the game is at instilling a sense that is perceived as progression.