Forbes: 'Destiny 2' Has Been Secretly Reducing XP Gains, And Is Stopping After Fans Caught On

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  • d_20d_20 SeoulMember RarePosts: 1,625
    Torval said:

    I'm not sure why they felt compelled to lie. That's disappointing. 
    This is the only thing for me, too.

    I don't even care about bright engrams or cosmetics. I just jump in for 45 minutes to an hour of pew pew now and then. I can't be bothered to worry about shaders, so they are piling up in my inventory.
    Torval

    image
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne UKMember RarePosts: 3,515
    I'm guessing they lied about it because if people knew which activities slowed progression they would just avoid them. I mean how barren would the public events be if people knew that farming them caused a 95% reduction in XP?
    Octagon7711
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • ElidienElidien Atlanta, GAMember UncommonPosts: 1,175
    Maybe people will do world events again. For the last week or so, they have been empty.

    Stupid for them to lie about it. Just admit to a diminishing returns on running events back to back (the same event) or incentivize players to do varied ones.
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,730
    I think it is always quite interesting the explanations that politicians, companies , developers and other entities give when they are caught red handed. There must be some very limber mental gymnastics that are performed to come out with bald faced lies and try to convince people otherwise.
    Thupli

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,262
    kitarad said:
    I think it is always quite interesting the explanations that politicians, companies , developers and other entities give when they are caught red handed. There must be some very limber mental gymnastics that are performed to come out with bald faced lies and try to convince people otherwise.
    They actually barely even bother to apologize or justify because they know damn well that these days all they really need to do is wait for the short public attention span to run its course and move on to the next thing.

    The outrage either gets outdated automatically or they help it along with very simple "But hey, look over here!" messages.


    AvarixJamesGoblindave6660Octagon7711
    You say you never compromise
    With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
    He's not selling any alibis
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  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 13,175
    Remember that tidbit about Activision attaining a copyright to manipulate player spending,yeah not a lot of good coming out of that giant operation.I noticed a distinct manipulation opening card packs in Hearthstone as well and perhaps thew worst crooked operation going is Kings Isle and Wizard 101 pack opening and Boss lootboxes that require money to open each time.

    Point is that rng is not the sole formulas used,there is manipulation to force more spending.

    This is why the law needs to move in fast,myself,gamer's we tend to TRUST the system,trust developers,trust they are doing the right thing,we tend to be naive and developers are taking advantage of it.
    unfilteredJW

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ThupliThupli Member UncommonPosts: 1,008
    I am officially keeping a list of developers that are slimy... And likewise a list of quality ones!
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    edited November 26
    I'm guessing they lied about it because if people knew which activities slowed progression they would just avoid them. I mean how barren would the public events be if people knew that farming them caused a 95% reduction in XP?
    I think people would grumble and adjust. Arena Net does this very thing with Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. It's known and something players deal with. It was implement specifically to ruin farming the same boss or zone over and over.
    Post edited by Torval on
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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,955
    Seriously, WTF?
    Spend a fortune on the box, then you have to drop tons of money just to enjoy the game later?
    I am just getting too old for this bullshit now.
    Time for a cheaper hobby, maybe boating or classic auto restoration.
    ThupliPDFS
  • Righteous_RockRighteous_Rock Youngstown, OHMember RarePosts: 1,216
    Seriously, WTF?
    Spend a fortune on the box, then you have to drop tons of money just to enjoy the game later?
    I am just getting too old for this bullshit now.
    Time for a cheaper hobby, maybe boating or classic auto restoration.

    That's typically been how I've dropped all my other old hobbies and picked up new ones, video games is the last one to go, but now it's too pricey.
    Thupli
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    edited November 26
    Seriously, WTF?
    Spend a fortune on the box, then you have to drop tons of money just to enjoy the game later?
    I am just getting too old for this bullshit now.
    Time for a cheaper hobby, maybe boating or classic auto restoration.

    No, actually you don't have to drop any more money. See this whole rant might give you the impression that progression is slow and drops don't rain like gold from the skies, but they do. In the time I first post to the time I posted again I ran the IO challenge, a couple lost sectors, and some heroic events. I got 1 exotic engram, 3 legendary engram drops, 1 powerful from the weekly guild bonus, and cashed in about 10 - 12 legendary engrams from rep vendors.

    The exotic dropped armour (boo) which were shoulders or legs I think. The legendaries were enough to bump up most all my weapons to 278 and have shards left over. I went from LL 283 to 284 in that 1 hour and 45 minute play session. I have 63 hours logged in the game and I have a couple developed characters.
    Post edited by Torval on
    KyleranOctagon7711esc-joconnor
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  • KatillaKatilla Nashua, NHMember UncommonPosts: 790
    Torval said:
    Seriously, WTF?
    Spend a fortune on the box, then you have to drop tons of money just to enjoy the game later?
    I am just getting too old for this bullshit now.
    Time for a cheaper hobby, maybe boating or classic auto restoration.

    No, actually you don't have to drop any more money. See this whole rant might give you the impression that progression is slow and drops don't rain like gold from the skies, but they do. In the time I first post to the time I posted again I ran the IO challenge, a couple lost sectors, and some heroic events. I got 1 exotic engram, 3 legendary engram drops, 1 powerful from the weekly guild bonus, and cashed in about 10 - 12 legendary engrams from rep vendors.

    The exotic dropped armour (boo) which were shoulders or legs I think. The legendaries were enough to bump up most all my weapons to 278 and have shards left over. I went from LL 283 to 284 in that 1 hour and 45 minute play session. I have 63 hours logged in the game and I have a couple developed characters.


    good for you.  I Just started a new character, 1-20 with a fireteam token on and had zero exotics drop for me and only 1 legendary.  I decided to grind public events and did so for about 4 hours and still no exotic drops with a full team and two tokens active.  RNJESUS hates me!!  The whole reason I started over was because i was stuck at 282 because of this bs RNG system.  Now on my new character I was able to get to 284...yay.. meanwhile all my friends are at 300 doing the same exact things I am with me.   Sometimes two or 2 exotics drop for them while we are playing and I only get blues.
    Torval
  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAMember UncommonPosts: 5,445
    edited November 26
    Basic economics. Does the store announce when it raises the prices on milk? Why does every price end in 99? All game companies adjust their XP curves to attain maximum profit. Businesses aren't charities. 
    Post edited by zymurgeist on
    IselinMadFrenchie

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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,827
    Basic economics. Does the store announce when it raises the prices on milk? Why does every price end in 99? All game companies adjust their XP curves to attain maximum profit. Businesses aren't charities. 
    No, those are not comparable analogies, as in both cases the purchaser can clearly see the price going up.

    Closer would be when they reduce a "package" of bacon from 16 oz to 12 oz, but even there the weight has to be on the package by law.

    A better real life analogy is when casinos reduce the payout rates on slot machines, without having to tell anyone they've done so.

    Of course businesses aren't charities but there is a big difference between selling something for fair market value or even whatever the market will bear vs. predatory or deceptive practices which the actions in this situation more closely resemble.
    AvarixJamesGoblin

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  • BladeburaibaBladeburaiba Member UncommonPosts: 8
    Kyleran said:

    A better real life analogy is when casinos reduce the payout rates on slot machines, without having to tell anyone they've done so.

    Since the Casino isn't showing a different payout rate than the actual payout rate, not a fair comparison either.  Funny that we struggle to find a real comparison?

    That shows how bad it is, except that it wasn't directly tied to a cash transaction...unless you were using fireteam medallions.

    Bigger picture, I've heard it said that Destiny 2 is worse than Destiny 1, even comparing both at launch.  At best, it's the same game.

    If true, then the motivation to start a new game instead of improving the old one was to implement this specific micro-transaction system?
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 982
    edited November 26
    Kyleran said:

    A better real life analogy is when casinos reduce the payout rates on slot machines, without having to tell anyone they've done so.

    Since the Casino isn't showing a different payout rate than the actual payout rate, not a fair comparison either.  Funny that we struggle to find a real comparison?

    That shows how bad it is, except that it wasn't directly tied to a cash transaction...unless you were using fireteam medallions.

    Bigger picture, I've heard it said that Destiny 2 is worse than Destiny 1, even comparing both at launch.  At best, it's the same game.

    If true, then the motivation to start a new game instead of improving the old one was to implement this specific micro-transaction system?
    Well, one major annoying thing about microtransactions is that development and design time spent on them is time that could have gone towards the actual game.  So it's possible they originally intended more but ended up just spending all their development and design time budget on the microtransactions in this case or something.  That would have been a spectacularly lame budget though.
    Post edited by Tiamat64 on
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    Kyleran said:
    Basic economics. Does the store announce when it raises the prices on milk? Why does every price end in 99? All game companies adjust their XP curves to attain maximum profit. Businesses aren't charities. 
    No, those are not comparable analogies, as in both cases the purchaser can clearly see the price going up.

    Closer would be when they reduce a "package" of bacon from 16 oz to 12 oz, but even there the weight has to be on the package by law.

    A better real life analogy is when casinos reduce the payout rates on slot machines, without having to tell anyone they've done so.

    Of course businesses aren't charities but there is a big difference between selling something for fair market value or even whatever the market will bear vs. predatory or deceptive practices which the actions in this situation more closely resemble.
    I don't know if the price of milk went up or down unless I measured and tracked it. I bought milk yesterday and don't know if the price was the same as last week. I know that it was in the ballpark.

    Unless someone does internet research and tracks receipts I doubt anyone can list off more than a handful of prices they remember let alone know when they fluctuate by a few percent.

    I don't buy into the charity analogy from either direction. It sets up a false moral dilemma where there is none. Someone is either trying to criticize or justify behavior based on subjective preferences. No no no no no!

    The only moral dilemma violated here was lying. For some reason they felt the need to lie. We can conjecture all day but at the end of it, if what is said in the article is true, they lied. Of course I can't read the article because I have an ad-blocker. It's not like Forbes is less guilty of using social pressure and shitty design tropes to keep me from reading their article.
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    Katilla said:
    Torval said:
    Seriously, WTF?
    Spend a fortune on the box, then you have to drop tons of money just to enjoy the game later?
    I am just getting too old for this bullshit now.
    Time for a cheaper hobby, maybe boating or classic auto restoration.

    No, actually you don't have to drop any more money. See this whole rant might give you the impression that progression is slow and drops don't rain like gold from the skies, but they do. In the time I first post to the time I posted again I ran the IO challenge, a couple lost sectors, and some heroic events. I got 1 exotic engram, 3 legendary engram drops, 1 powerful from the weekly guild bonus, and cashed in about 10 - 12 legendary engrams from rep vendors.

    The exotic dropped armour (boo) which were shoulders or legs I think. The legendaries were enough to bump up most all my weapons to 278 and have shards left over. I went from LL 283 to 284 in that 1 hour and 45 minute play session. I have 63 hours logged in the game and I have a couple developed characters.


    good for you.  I Just started a new character, 1-20 with a fireteam token on and had zero exotics drop for me and only 1 legendary.  I decided to grind public events and did so for about 4 hours and still no exotic drops with a full team and two tokens active.  RNJESUS hates me!!  The whole reason I started over was because i was stuck at 282 because of this bs RNG system.  Now on my new character I was able to get to 284...yay.. meanwhile all my friends are at 300 doing the same exact things I am with me.   Sometimes two or 2 exotics drop for them while we are playing and I only get blues.

    There are a couple of tricks to pushing your Light Level. The powerful engrams you get from weeklies are always stronger than dropped or reputation Legendary Engrams. So every week you will bump up your light level through those activities.

    Make sure you have your maxed LL gear equipped when picking up any engrams. You have to do it before you pick up an engram because once it's picked up the LL is locked.

    Engrams for each weapon or gear slot drop at a floor value that is based on or influenced by your lowest LL gear in that slot. This part I've read about but not thoroughly.

    So I try and keep my max LL gear equipped whenever I talk to an NPC or open dialog for a powerful engram. I bump up all the Legendaries in every weapon slot to keep them viable to switch out without hammering my LL and to keep my minimum LL consistent with the current reputation engram level. At LL284 the rep vendors reward Legendaries at LL278.

    Keeping gear up is kind of spendy though. I try and keep enough shards on hand by Thursday to check if Xur has anything interesting (he didn't - fusion rifle ugh).

    I mostly get blues during world events that are fodder for the weapon master. I get about 2 exotics a week.
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  • BladeburaibaBladeburaiba Member UncommonPosts: 8
    Torval said:

    The only moral dilemma violated here was lying. For some reason they felt the need to lie. We can conjecture all day but at the end of it, if what is said in the article is true, they lied.
    I don't think you can strictly say they were lying. One player demonstrated that the XP shown onscreen does not match the XP gained in the bar.  Other players verified that, independent of the article.

    Bungie admitted that it was working as intended, but they were now "not satisfied" with the system.  So you can accuse them of being dishonest.  In my book, dishonest people are more dangerous.

    But with all this outcry, I have an argument that it has to be this way, or more precisely companies like Bungie inevitably have to become this way, because of capitalism.  Have to in the sense that you do it, or you get fired.
    Torval
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    Torval said:

    The only moral dilemma violated here was lying. For some reason they felt the need to lie. We can conjecture all day but at the end of it, if what is said in the article is true, they lied.
    I don't think you can strictly say they were lying. One player demonstrated that the XP shown onscreen does not match the XP gained in the bar.  Other players verified that, independent of the article.

    Bungie admitted that it was working as intended, but they were now "not satisfied" with the system.  So you can accuse them of being dishonest.  In my book, dishonest people are more dangerous.

    But with all this outcry, I have an argument that it has to be this way, or more precisely companies like Bungie inevitably have to become this way, because of capitalism.  Have to in the sense that you do it, or you get fired.
    Yeah, this is all based on the premise they're lying which I didn't want to get into with the people that get behind these "shifty developer moral outrage" threads. Arguing that kind of thing just ends up in a circle jerk of forum pvp and snarky comments. I should have made it clearer that I don't know if they're lying and that hasn't been proven. They deserved the benefit of the doubt on that.

    Anyway, as a casual player the progression rate is pretty good. Exotics don't drop enough. I don't care so much about Bright Engrams, but rather trying to unlock exotics and the ambiguous restrictions behind some exotics not being viable for fusion is clunky and annoying. There are quite a lot of exotics and unlocks are a bit slow. Not only do you need to unlock a weapon but then likely need to fuse some weapons into it.

    On this site there are often complaints about games giving out progression too fast. Destiny 2 leans far more heavily on the side of fast progression and easy rewards than it does sluggish and stingy. I noticed some people jumped on the bandwagon that they're pulling some big sneaky monetization trick where you need to pay more to fully enjoy the game and I'm not feeling that at all. Maybe someone who is hardcore and wants to progress even faster with more drops feels the need to buy BEs. That's not me though.
    Iselin
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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,262
    1. They've admitted that they had been downscaling XP and have now turned it off.
    2, The downscaled XP was not reflected on the XP shown as earned.

    It's obviously within the realm of possibility that the XP shown as earned had a visual bug that didn't show the correct amount earned but it's curious that if this was a visual bug, Bungie failed to mention that in their statement since it's precisely that discrepancy between earned and displayed XP that is the basis for calling it a lie:
    "We’ve seen community discussion around XP gain in Destiny. After reviewing our data, we agree that the system is not performing the way we’d like it to. Today, we’d like to describe what’s going on under the hood, and talk about what you can expect going forward when it comes to earning XP in Destiny 2.

    Currently, XP will scale up when playing longer or fixed duration activities like Crucible competitive multiplayer matches and the Leviathan Raid, and XP will scale down when playing activities that can be quickly, repeatedly chained, like grinding Public Events. We are not happy with the results, and we’ve heard the same from the community.

    Effective immediately, we are deactivating this system."

    So... you judge. Is it more likely that they were lying or that it was big oops?

    Is it just the usual suspects "morally outraging" or is it perhaps the other usual suspects deflecting and belittling those who don't believe in the gaming companies god-given right to do as they please? 

    You decide.


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    And say "Do you want to make a deal?"
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,974
    edited November 26
    Have to agree with Iselin, the statement was a rather candid admission that "yea, it was implemented that way".

    Maybe they'll extrapolate and it will be a visual bug, but it seems strange they wouldn't have called it that immediately.  Their response never made mention of it displaying incorrectly, but that it worked the way the players deduced and they were immediately changing it.

    I understand you're enjoying the game, Torval, but that doesn't mean heads should be stuck in the sand when there's been pretty strong evidence presented they've been misleading gamers.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
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  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne UKMember RarePosts: 3,515
    edited November 26
    Have to agree with Iselin, the statement was a rather candid admission that "yea, it was implemented that way".

    Maybe they'll extrapolate and it will be a visual bug, but it seems strange they wouldn't have called it that immediately.  Their response never made mention of it displaying incorrectly, but that it worked the way the players deduced and they were immediately changing it.

    I understand you're enjoying the game, Torval, but that doesn't mean heads should be stuck in the sand when there's been pretty strong evidence presented they've been misleading gamers.
    Remind me of Kevin Spacey's statement. Not an admission of guilt, but not a denial either.
    Post edited by TheDarkrayne on
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,001
    Comparing a habitual sexual predator living in denial to an xp balance issue in a game is crazy. People need to dial back down to reality.

    If people who don't play the game want to frame an outrage issue and setup their next industry bogeyman nothing anyone else says will stop you. Considering the games those people play their outrage is laughable.
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  • WoeToTheVanquishedWoeToTheVanquished USA #1, ILMember UncommonPosts: 178
    I'm actually surprised it took people ?months? to realize this? I understood what was happening with the bright engrams maybe 3 days after purchasing Desting 2 -- considering I had maxed level after 48 hours. It should be common sense that you'd gain less exp every time you level, but with better rewards as you hit level milestones or get lucky. Circumstantial if you'd even GET better rewards for continuous leveling.

    However, it's pretty weak when the company monetizes the lootbox.  That's really the only reason why people are complaining about this. Bright engrams don't give you anything useful, btw -- it's cosmetic garbage. 
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