>>> and slowly earn enough to build my own ships,through crafting and trading >>>
What stops you from doing that ?
Or is the thing that really galls you that OTHERS already HAVE the ships YOU want ?
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Well, from the Star Wars Battlefront 2 arguments on the matter (where EA tried to claim they made the grind stupidly long so that players would feel accomplished afterwards, but you can just buy your way past the grind via lootboxes), there is the fact that for most people, it feels a lot less like an achievement when the option to just buy the item outright is there, and the feeling of accomplishment is greatly devalued when others just brought it outright. I'm not sure I saw anyone mention it specifically, but I'm sure it's in part because exclusitivity rights to parade around your accomplishment fly out the window when others who didn't accomplish it the hard way can parade it around too, further exasperated by how there's no way to denote or tell if someone accomplished it via gameplay or via wallet power. It devalues the achievement quite a bit.
Telling them otherwise isn't going to change their feelings or thoughts on the matter. EA tried to tell them otherwise and it didn't work. No matter how much you try to justify it, you won't change peoples' own feelings on the matter and apparently those feelings are strong enough to affect sales since Star Wars Battlefront 2's sales are apparently less than stellar (according to reports from that thread at least. I haven't done the research myself because so many others did already). But then, this is really something any company that has big ticket items for whales should know. R2games makes millions from whales and they made a business presentation on the matter where they explicitly state they are well aware that having whale monetization practices decreases the overall size of your playerbase (but is totally worth it if you want more money).
Yet another reason why Star Citizen's going to be niche at best, really.
I would like to have the option to play on a hosted server where no purchased (real cash) ships existed, even it is was very scaled back in numbers. it would be nice if they offered a server like this officially but I don't see that happening.
Star Citizen always was niche, as space simulation games usually are. So - nothing has changed.
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Games not even fully developed or released yet, but has been fully categorized. Nothing has changed? The game is in a constant state of change at this time. They haven't even started working on some of the things that are being discussed at the moment.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Star Citizen always was niche, as space simulation games usually are. So - nothing has changed.
Have fun
Games not even fully developed or released yet, but has been fully categorized. Nothing has changed? The game is in a constant state of change at this time. They haven't even started working on some of the things that are being discussed at the moment.
You DID read the Kickstarter description, did you not ?
Star Citizen always was niche, as space simulation games usually are. So - nothing has changed.
Have fun
Games not even fully developed or released yet, but has been fully categorized. Nothing has changed? The game is in a constant state of change at this time. They haven't even started working on some of the things that are being discussed at the moment.
You DID read the Kickstarter description, did you not ?
Star Citizen always was niche, as space simulation games usually are. So - nothing has changed.
Have fun
Games not even fully developed or released yet, but has been fully categorized. Nothing has changed? The game is in a constant state of change at this time. They haven't even started working on some of the things that are being discussed at the moment.
You DID read the Kickstarter description, did you not ?
Have fun
What does that have to do with his point, though?
Kickstarter description (and i quote):
"A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person...."
The category was one of the first sentences in the Kickstarter description. THAT is why it has been categorized.
Contrary to what people claim, the game is NOT in a constant state of change. They are basically working through their crowdfunding description and the stretch goals, with some of those stretch goals (e.g. procedural generation R&D) yielding quite impressive rewards.
If it was a single player game then i wouldn't even be interested in it at all, the closer it gets to being an actual MMO the better, if the poll is a sign that it becoming a single player game is even remotely possible, then i'd have to wonder what the point of the game even was, SC as a single player game, why bother?
Star Citizen always was niche, as space simulation games usually are. So - nothing has changed.
Have fun
Games not even fully developed or released yet, but has been fully categorized. Nothing has changed? The game is in a constant state of change at this time. They haven't even started working on some of the things that are being discussed at the moment.
You DID read the Kickstarter description, did you not ?
Have fun
What does that have to do with his point, though?
Kickstarter description (and i quote):
"A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person...."
The category was one of the first sentences in the Kickstarter description. THAT is why it has been categorized.
Contrary to what people claim, the game is NOT in a constant state of change. They are basically working through their crowdfunding description and the stretch goals, with some of those stretch goals (e.g. procedural generation R&D) yielding quite impressive rewards.
Have fun
Come now Erillion, the scoped has changed since Kickstarter substantially. Not to mention the recent discussions regarding offline/private server plans.
Oh you mean Squadron 42? HELL YES! I need a good story based space sim(last good one was...Darkstar One? /shrug). Edit: HELL NO to singleplayer version of an MMO. Just give me Squadron tyvm!
Exactly... this is what SQ42 was meant to be... although it was also supposed to contain small multi-player as well.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Star Citizen always was niche, as space simulation games usually are. So - nothing has changed.
Have fun
Games not even fully developed or released yet, but has been fully categorized. Nothing has changed? The game is in a constant state of change at this time. They haven't even started working on some of the things that are being discussed at the moment.
You DID read the Kickstarter description, did you not ?
Have fun
What does that have to do with his point, though?
Kickstarter description (and i quote):
"A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person...."
The category was one of the first sentences in the Kickstarter description. THAT is why it has been categorized.
Contrary to what people claim, the game is NOT in a constant state of change. They are basically working through their crowdfunding description and the stretch goals, with some of those stretch goals (e.g. procedural generation R&D) yielding quite impressive rewards.
Have fun
The game is not in a constant state of change???? That would mean that all their concepts will work 100% without any changes needed and nothing will be needed to change along the way. What statements you make, I can't believe them lately.
Everyone knows the changes a game goes through when going through a development phase. That's why some backers have left because they didn't like some of the changes verses what was promised in the first kickstarter. Such extreme statements 'E' one would think you're stirring the pot on purpose.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
If it was a single player game then i wouldn't even be interested in it at all, the closer it gets to being an actual MMO the better, if the poll is a sign that it becoming a single player game is even remotely possible, then i'd have to wonder what the point of the game even was, SC as a single player game, why bother?
Looks like an MMO. CIG is just trying to satisfy everyone at the moment but everything appears to be for group activities.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
As for 'single player' in the PU, it depends what they mean; I wouldn't want a seperate single player mode, but I would want a good amount of PvE content (and I don't just mean the randomly generated kind) that can be done with a small group (or solo if you are skilled enough).
Come now Erillion, the scoped has changed since Kickstarter substantially. Not to mention the recent discussions regarding offline/private server plans.
The scope has changed through stretch goals, as the backers demanded and voted for with their wallets. The last stretch goal was added three something years ago. Since then the scope has NOT changed. Out of the procedural generation R&D some impressive things have been added, but that is again coming from one of the stretch goals.
Discussions about offline/private servers have been ongoing since this crowdfunding project started. They are still on the list, but far down the list .. because we need a game first.
The game is not in a constant state of change???? That would mean that all their concepts will work 100% without any changes needed and nothing will be needed to change along the way. What statements you make, I can't believe them lately.
Everyone knows the changes a game goes through when going through a development phase. That's why some backers have left because they didn't like some of the changes verses what was promised in the first kickstarter. Such extreme statements 'E' one would think you're stirring the pot on purpose.
Lets judge AFTER the game has been launched if all the concepts work 100 %, shall we ?
If Leonardo da Vinci would have shown a half painted "Mona Lisa" to onlookers and they comment it with "What a shitty painting, so much is missing...." ... would that have been any indication about the final quality of the "Mona Lisa" ?
I don't know that it is as simple as that. Just because they were going to do some R&D into the usefulness of PG does not mean changing to fully explorable planets is not a scope change. Then we have things like farming, or land claiming, or base building. Were they part of the original scope? The game is sounding like there will be more emphasis on the survival aspect, eating, drinking, pooping etc which is a change of scope from the original plans.
I think there are lots of little things that they have expanded on as more money has come in, the expansion of each of those ideas is a change of scope, there's no getting around that.
Then we have things like farming, or land claiming, or base building. Were they part of the original scope?
Yes.
From the stretch goals list:
"...Manage Space Stations – Players will compete to own and operate a limited number of space stations across the galaxy..."
"...Don’t just battle on space stations and platforms… take the fight to the ground!---"
Have fun
That's exactly my point. The scope of those original features was far, far less than what they are now, therefore a change in scope.
Take the original planet design where you were auto-piloted to a landing area, now we have something completely different and far more complex, that in itself is a change of scope, it requires considerably more work and that applies to pretty much everything, pre and post the last stretch goal.
I would play it as singleplayer, but on one condition..... I want a Star Trek Skin mod. Maybe then there will be a decent Star Trek game without stupid lockboxes and actually space exploring.
Then we have things like farming, or land claiming, or base building. Were they part of the original scope?
Yes.
From the stretch goals list:
"...Manage Space Stations – Players will compete to own and operate a limited number of space stations across the galaxy..."
"...Don’t just battle on space stations and platforms… take the fight to the ground!---"
Have fun
That's exactly my point. The scope of those original features was far, far less than what they are now, therefore a change in scope.
Take the original planet design where you were auto-piloted to a landing area, now we have something completely different and far more complex, that in itself is a change of scope, it requires considerably more work and that applies to pretty much everything, pre and post the last stretch goal.
We clearly disagree on the extend of the stretch goals.
To me this was all included. To you this is all new and "beyond the scope".
Definitely not, as a major part of the appeal - to me - is the unpredictable nature of interacting with other players. Beyond that, it's also very important to me to share the experience with friends - and everything becomes more meaningful and real when other people are a part of it.
Then we have things like farming, or land claiming, or base building. Were they part of the original scope?
Yes.
From the stretch goals list:
"...Manage Space Stations – Players will compete to own and operate a limited number of space stations across the galaxy..."
"...Don’t just battle on space stations and platforms… take the fight to the ground!---"
Have fun
That's exactly my point. The scope of those original features was far, far less than what they are now, therefore a change in scope.
Take the original planet design where you were auto-piloted to a landing area, now we have something completely different and far more complex, that in itself is a change of scope, it requires considerably more work and that applies to pretty much everything, pre and post the last stretch goal.
We clearly disagree on the extend of the stretch goals.
To me this was all included. To you this is all new and "beyond the scope".
Have fun
We're crowdfunding for a wendy house that will look like the best Mansion McMansion ever, it will have cardboard cut-out furniture and shoebox televisions, it will have MDF staircases painted to look like marble etc.
Wow, we've received so much money we're going to build a real Mansion McMansion, all the furnishings are handmade one-offs, it will have OLED screens in every room, marble staircases, the works.
Yeah, that's a scope change
If it was all included why hasn't it been made for $65 million, why has it cost more than twice that to bring out their 3rd alpha?
Anyway, it's a silly argument. Everything has increased in scope, that's plain for all to see.
I don't know that it is as simple as that. Just because they were going to do some R&D into the usefulness of PG does not mean changing to fully explorable planets is not a scope change. Then we have things like farming, or land claiming, or base building. Were they part of the original scope? The game is sounding like there will be more emphasis on the survival aspect, eating, drinking, pooping etc which is a change of scope from the original plans.
I think there are lots of little things that they have expanded on as more money has come in, the expansion of each of those ideas is a change of scope, there's no getting around that.
The fully explorable planets was the whole point of the R&D, this was not a scope change. Base building and land claim was the first proper scope creep since those early days and happens to be a direct result of the R&D. As they stated at the time, when the R&D had proved successful this led them to state 'these fully explorable planets open up a level of gameplay and options that simply were not available before'. I expect there to be a lot of additions in this area in the future, I expect it to come somewhere in the 4.0 line.
The game has not changed scope to 'survival'. Eating, drinking and pooping etc. are not every 5 seconds like those rubbish survival games but have been described as something you do once a day as fluff that may affect attributes, not that much different to how you 'eat' and 'drink' in WoW. Whether they make it a positive or negative trait is not what changes the core design suddenly to a 'survival' game.
As for "I think there are lots of little things that they have expanded on as more money has come in, the expansion of each of those ideas is a change of scope". This is just not true, lets look at communication for example, communication between ships and players etc was never mentioned to backers in the early development, but that does not mean that including it is 'changing the scope', some things are just needed regardless of what is shown in the broadbrush outlines of early design. What extra money has allowed is to embellish on the quality of necessary features and features that makes sense in a game with this kind of scale and detail, essentially being able to reduce the list of features that people only ever notice when they are NOT there. This does not equate to a scope change.
After years of people crying their eyes out about all of the scope creep......of which there wasn't really any......FINALLY there is one added that could be lumped into scope creep without question and this came off the back of R&D, something they could not have known the outcome of before hand.
The constant scope creep narrative was and still is mainly loud noise from ignorant people or worse, people who deliberately want to obfuscate reality in the constant crusade they wage against CIG.
Its called Stretch goals. And happened years ago. The scope has already changed massively at the end of the Kickstarter campaign. And more stretch goals changed it further. All of this has already been discussed ad nauseam in years past.
The constant scope creep narrative - as @Orinori so aptly named it - was and still is wrong. Any recent changes are a direct result of an R&D stretch goal.
Comments
Telling them otherwise isn't going to change their feelings or thoughts on the matter. EA tried to tell them otherwise and it didn't work. No matter how much you try to justify it, you won't change peoples' own feelings on the matter and apparently those feelings are strong enough to affect sales since Star Wars Battlefront 2's sales are apparently less than stellar (according to reports from that thread at least. I haven't done the research myself because so many others did already). But then, this is really something any company that has big ticket items for whales should know. R2games makes millions from whales and they made a business presentation on the matter where they explicitly state they are well aware that having whale monetization practices decreases the overall size of your playerbase (but is totally worth it if you want more money).
Yet another reason why Star Citizen's going to be niche at best, really.
Have fun
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Have fun
"A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person...."
The category was one of the first sentences in the Kickstarter description. THAT is why it has been categorized.
Contrary to what people claim, the game is NOT in a constant state of change. They are basically working through their crowdfunding description and the stretch goals, with some of those stretch goals (e.g. procedural generation R&D) yielding quite impressive rewards.
Have fun
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Everyone knows the changes a game goes through when going through a development phase. That's why some backers have left because they didn't like some of the changes verses what was promised in the first kickstarter. Such extreme statements 'E' one would think you're stirring the pot on purpose.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
As for 'single player' in the PU, it depends what they mean; I wouldn't want a seperate single player mode, but I would want a good amount of PvE content (and I don't just mean the randomly generated kind) that can be done with a small group (or solo if you are skilled enough).
Discussions about offline/private servers have been ongoing since this crowdfunding project started. They are still on the list, but far down the list .. because we need a game first.
Have fun
If Leonardo da Vinci would have shown a half painted "Mona Lisa" to onlookers and they comment it with "What a shitty painting, so much is missing...." ... would that have been any indication about the final quality of the "Mona Lisa" ?
Have fun
I don't know that it is as simple as that. Just because they were going to do some R&D into the usefulness of PG does not mean changing to fully explorable planets is not a scope change.
Then we have things like farming, or land claiming, or base building. Were they part of the original scope? The game is sounding like there will be more emphasis on the survival aspect, eating, drinking, pooping etc which is a change of scope from the original plans.
I think there are lots of little things that they have expanded on as more money has come in, the expansion of each of those ideas is a change of scope, there's no getting around that.
From the stretch goals list:
"...Manage Space Stations – Players will compete to own and operate a limited number of space stations across the galaxy..."
"...Don’t just battle on space stations and platforms… take the fight to the ground!---"
Have fun
That's exactly my point. The scope of those original features was far, far less than what they are now, therefore a change in scope.
Take the original planet design where you were auto-piloted to a landing area, now we have something completely different and far more complex, that in itself is a change of scope, it requires considerably more work and that applies to pretty much everything, pre and post the last stretch goal.
To me this was all included. To you this is all new and "beyond the scope".
Have fun
At least to me.
We're crowdfunding for a wendy house that will look like the best Mansion McMansion ever, it will have cardboard cut-out furniture and shoebox televisions, it will have MDF staircases painted to look like marble etc.
Wow, we've received so much money we're going to build a real Mansion McMansion, all the furnishings are handmade one-offs, it will have OLED screens in every room, marble staircases, the works.
Yeah, that's a scope change
If it was all included why hasn't it been made for $65 million, why has it cost more than twice that to bring out their 3rd alpha?
Anyway, it's a silly argument. Everything has increased in scope, that's plain for all to see.
The game has not changed scope to 'survival'. Eating, drinking and pooping etc. are not every 5 seconds like those rubbish survival games but have been described as something you do once a day as fluff that may affect attributes, not that much different to how you 'eat' and 'drink' in WoW. Whether they make it a positive or negative trait is not what changes the core design suddenly to a 'survival' game.
As for "I think there are lots of little things that they have expanded on as more money has come in, the expansion of each of those ideas is a change of scope". This is just not true, lets look at communication for example, communication between ships and players etc was never mentioned to backers in the early development, but that does not mean that including it is 'changing the scope', some things are just needed regardless of what is shown in the broadbrush outlines of early design. What extra money has allowed is to embellish on the quality of necessary features and features that makes sense in a game with this kind of scale and detail, essentially being able to reduce the list of features that people only ever notice when they are NOT there. This does not equate to a scope change.
After years of people crying their eyes out about all of the scope creep......of which there wasn't really any......FINALLY there is one added that could be lumped into scope creep without question and this came off the back of R&D, something they could not have known the outcome of before hand.
The constant scope creep narrative was and still is mainly loud noise from ignorant people or worse, people who deliberately want to obfuscate reality in the constant crusade they wage against CIG.
Its called Stretch goals. And happened years ago. The scope has already changed massively at the end of the Kickstarter campaign. And more stretch goals changed it further. All of this has already been discussed ad nauseam in years past.
The constant scope creep narrative - as @Orinori so aptly named it - was and still is wrong. Any recent changes are a direct result of an R&D stretch goal.
Have fun