What would it take to be one of, if not the greatest mmo?

TarzanGreenTarzanGreen Member UncommonPosts: 23
edited November 14 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
      Many good people in this thread have said, “I don’t think anyone can truly know” or something along those lines. I agree. There are so many variables and differences possible in an mmo that it’s impossible to say overall. In hindsight I could have worded the title a little different. I guess what would make the greatest mmo, to you.    
There will never be an MMO that could be called the greatest ever, as MMO players, as a collective, can not agree on what would make an MMO the greatest ever.

Just as an example, in my opinion, SWG: An Empire Divided became the greatest MMORPG ever when they added the Jump to Lightspeed expansion.

Not everyone who frequents this site, never mind everyone that plays MMOs, would agree.

      I have been thinking about this for a number of years as I continue to enjoyably design an mmo. It seems to be greed is one of the big issues, IMO. Not the only one but businesses need to make money, just some seem to be going too far. Unfortnetly it’s seems designers and investors are just there for the money first, quick cash or return. Reeling in the whales in this age of F2P > P2W.
      The greatest MMO, sandbox, whatever, is out there currently but just can’t get enough traction due to upfront costs it seems. Then getting that money means more voices tainting the final product, unfortunately.
      Crowdfunding seems to be the way but then all of the people investing get impatient. That is understandable because hard earned money has been spent and they/we want something to play. I just think the greatest game, mmo is yet to come. There is a chance it will reach fruition. 
     
      Okay, a lot of good points so far. I have tried to research just about every aspect of games, what makes games fun, why games have failed etc. A couple people mentioned market research/data and I agree there completely. That is a juggernaut of a task but personally I find that exhilarating because I’m learning and adding to my design. 

KEY THINGS so far.
I feel are needed, no particular order.

1. Sense of accomplishment.
      Feeling like you did something worthwhile and enjoyed what you did. Whether playing for 10min or 10hours.

2. Variety that makes (in game) sense.
      Multiple activities and tasks that aren’t simply smashed into the game to fill it out. Things that naturally interact and work with each other. (Farmer gathers high quality worms and can sell to players who fish > Then fishers trade their catch to a chef > Lumberjack consumes cooked fish meal to increase endurance when chopping wood > Crafter makes fishing pole from wood for that fisher.)

3. Unforced PvP
      Open world is all PvE, with the environment providing the challenge. PvP could happen if players want to duel, also in Arenas.

4. (Crazy idea) No Global Chat (At least easily turned off chat channel). My original thought was that doing this would foster a sort of camaraderie by localizing play. Upon further reflection just simply doing this is not the best idea but I’ll revisit it. 
Post edited by TarzanGreen on
«1

Comments

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 1,693
    Funding is always a problem, but, even if you solved that problem it wouldn't result in a great MMO, much less the greatest.  Design and implementation are not solved problems, they are still hard things that require experimentation to get better games.
    TarzanGreenOctagon7711
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,026
    edited November 12
    Vanguard ..........without the troublesome performnace issues it gave many folks ....

       Maybe BM and team pull this off with Patheon
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • TarzanGreenTarzanGreen Member UncommonPosts: 23
    Funding is always a problem, but, even if you solved that problem it wouldn't result in a great MMO, much less the greatest.  Design and implementation are not solved problems, they are still hard things that require experimentation to get better games.
    Oh yes, for sure. Many examples of well funded games that have flopped are available. Though it seems to me that many mistakes and experimentation have already been made with past games. There is possibly enough to be learned from what others have tried. Lessons learned that a designer or studio can use as good direction. It’d just take a long time I guess. 
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 1,693
    Sure, there's lots of past data to learn from.  And the great thing is, this data is available even to us forum posters, so we could discuss it.  I think this could be more constructive and interesting than trying to discuss funding.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 5,964
    It can't be easy for developers and so I must salute them.  Having to deal with office politics and making ethical decisions about the game you're working on, not to mention dealing with all the different types of players, each looking for something different in your game.  Not to mention personal threats for doing something a player may not like.  Sometimes I think it's amazing that anything gets launched at all.  So keep up the good work and keep fighting the good fight Devs.
    TarzanGreen

    "Change is the only constant."

  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIMember UncommonPosts: 1,282
    Greatest MMO is the one a person keeps playing.


    UnkillablePhryTarzanGreenPhaserlight
  • UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILMember UncommonPosts: 113
    Wow it has been sometime since i saw you active around here Archwind. Its me Pete man, we worked on making the game you created for a while. send me a PM man, we should catch up, its been years.
  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIMember RarePosts: 1,665
    The best MMO would have to be a blend of Theme Park and Sandbox. I'm picturing World of Warcraft + Star Wars Galaxies.

    Loads and action-packed adventuring as well as loads of social content, e.g., INNs, Taverns, Cantinas, Player Economies, etc etc etc.

    Imagine playing a game like WoW, but flying your dragon to your very own non-instanced house that sits in the world. GIGANTIC LANDS.
    ByrgenarHofen
    4ft Gaming Mouse Pad - www.mouserpad.com
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSMember UncommonPosts: 1,437
    The greatest rewards are what it take to be one of greatest MMO , or i can say for most of games .
  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIMember UncommonPosts: 1,282
    edited November 12
    Wow it has been sometime since i saw you active around here Archwind. Its me Pete man, we worked on making the game you created for a while. send me a PM man, we should catch up, its been years.

    HOLY FK! Don't come around here much anymore. Was working on new engine but taking a break.

    edit: Oh I PM'ed you BTW. Incase you never look at the message bar like me.

    Post edited by ArChWind on
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,925
    edited November 12
    In today's climate?  World of Warcraft Classic.  It was the greatest MMO back then and it'd be the greatest MMO now, mainly because its competition sucks so much ass.  And by competition I'm including the current version of WoW.

    In otherwords, make a MMO that's an actual game rather than a faceroll-fest, participation-trophy bananza, like all the current games are, and that real game be the greatest one out there.  Because it'll be an actual game.

    It's so damn simple that's it's maddening to confront daily that it doesn't exist.  Just make a fucking real game!  They all used to be real games so I don't understand why this isn't the standard now.  But no, faceroll-ville is the standard now and people are buying for some reason.
    Post edited by SedrynTyros on
    TarzanGreen
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Cambridge, MAMember UncommonPosts: 1,032
    I'd say something new and revolutionary. 
  • Cylon1337Cylon1337 Milford, MEMember UncommonPosts: 7
    I have found the solution to your problem, http://oldschool.runescape.com/

    image

  • tawesstawess LkpgMember RarePosts: 3,757
    It would take 

    1: Money... A lot of money
    2: A dedicated team of highly skilled people 
    3: A strong leader with a clear vision
    4: Insane amounts of market research 
    5: A acceptances that all that money spent is gone and that the product might never be more than profitable.
    6: A entirely fresh generation of players. 
    7: A 10 year plan that is still agile enough to adapt. 
    8: A opening in the market
    9: Some tech breakthrough to open up said market
    10: Luck. 

    In short.... It ain´t ever going to happen. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIMember UncommonPosts: 1,282
    tawess said:
    It would take 

    1: Money... A lot of money
    2: A dedicated team of highly skilled people 
    3: A strong leader with a clear vision
    4: Insane amounts of market research 
    5: A acceptances that all that money spent is gone and that the product might never be more than profitable.
    6: A entirely fresh generation of players. 
    7: A 10 year plan that is still agile enough to adapt. 
    8: A opening in the market
    9: Some tech breakthrough to open up said market
    10: Luck. 

    In short.... It ain´t ever going to happen. 
    1. I don't agree totally with but for sake of argument but stay away form crowdfunding!

    2. ABSOLUTELY.

    3. BEST but not always.

    4. That should be #1. Do research BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH. (Capitalized intentionally)

    5. MMOS do not make money. There are better products to make money from so yeah.

    6. Not necessarily.

    7. Depends on size and scope.

    8. New different? Always opening in the market.

    9. That comes from in house development to create the tech ones self not from cut paste someone else shit. It never works and NEVER will.

    10. Should be #2. With a little luck and little money and a LOT of (that scary four letter word) WORK one can make something maybe even the greatest of all time.

    Hopefully some will!

    ???? /crickets

  • VrikaVrika FinlandMember RarePosts: 4,193
    Blizzard

     
  • TarzanGreenTarzanGreen Member UncommonPosts: 23
    In today's climate?  World of Warcraft Classic.  It was the greatest MMO back then and it'd be the greatest MMO now, mainly because its competition sucks so much ass.  And by competition I'm including the current version of WoW.

    In otherwords, make a MMO that's an actual game rather than a faceroll-fest, participation-trophy bananza, like all the current games are, and that real game be the greatest one out there.  Because it'll be an actual game.

    It's so damn simple that's it's maddening to confront daily that it doesn't exist.  Just make a fucking real game!  They all used to be real games so I don't understand why this isn't the standard now.  But no, faceroll-ville is the standard now and people are buying for some reason.
          Spoon feeding seems to be a plague that has infested much of game design. Having a game with multiple things to do and interesting choices etc would go far. 
          Players themselves would have to decide for once! If they want to grind towards something, go ahead. But it wouldn’t be required.

    Dauzqul said:
    The best MMO would have to be a blend of Theme Park and Sandbox. I'm picturing World of Warcraft + Star Wars Galaxies.

    Loads and action-packed adventuring as well as loads of social content, e.g., INNs, Taverns, Cantinas, Player Economies, etc etc etc.

    Imagine playing a game like WoW, but flying your dragon to your very own non-instanced house that sits in the world. GIGANTIC LANDS.
          I think this is all bang on! Variety is key. Social content being an absolute must, just not forced. So players adventure solo or in a group.
    A system where it is non-instanced housing would do wonders. 


    ByrgenarHofen
  • sayuusayuu glendale, AZMember RarePosts: 557
          I have been thinking about this for a number of years and it seems to be Greed is one of the main issues, IMO. Unfortnetly it’s seems designers and investors are just there for the money first, quick cash or return. Reeling in the whales in this age of F2P > P2W.
          The greatest MMO, sandbox, whatever, is out there currently but just can’t get enough traction due to upfront costs it seems. Then getting that money means more voices tainting the final product, unfortunately.
          Crowdfunding seems to be the way but then all of the people investing get impatient. That is understandable because hard earned money has been spent and they/we want something to play. I just think the greatest game, mmo is yet to come. There is a chance it will reach fruition. 
         
          Okay, a lot of good points so far. I have tried to research just about every aspect of games, what makes games fun, why games have failed etc. A couple people mentioned market research/data and I agree there completely. That is a juggernaut of a task but personally I find that exhilarating because I’m learning and adding to my design. 

    KEY THINGS so far.
    I feel are needed, no particular order.

    1. Sense of accomplishment.
          Feeling like you did something worthwhile and enjoyed what you did. Whether playing for 10min or 10hours.

    2. Variety that makes (in game) sense.
          Multiple activities and tasks that aren’t simply smashed into the game to fill it out. Things that naturally interact and work with each other. (Farmer gathers high quality worms and can sell to players who fish > Then fishers trade their catch to a chef > Lumberjack consumes cooked fish meal to increase endurance when chopping wood > Crafter makes fishing pole from wood for that fisher.)

    3. Unforced PvP
          Open world is all PvE, with the environment providing the challenge. PvP could happen if players want to duel, also in Arenas.

    4. No Global Chat
    sooooooooooooo. . . World of Warcraft?
    Konfess
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,398
    Someone needs to develop a world that we can explore and feel we are a part of and not just going thru the quest or storyline motions.
  • btdtbtdt Member UncommonPosts: 121
    OP, ask yourself this one simple question...

    When you first fell in love with the genre, did you do a microanalysis on the game first before you ever stepped one foot into it?  I can pretty much guess with absolute certainty that you did not.

    That in itself should answer your question as to why you can't seem to find that same utopia today... you're overanalyzing things and are going in with expectations that doom the game before it ever even begins.

    The kids growing up today live in an entirely different world than we grew up in.  Most have had a cell phone as an appendage there ENTIRE life.  The genre was a success when the internet was still new... it WAS the cell phone of our times.  It doesn't fulfill that role anymore and it is why the new generation approach the game entirely different than we do.

    The game you are looking for, even if it were made, would not stand the test of time because you are not living in the past anymore.  Some people still play chess, the preponderance of the population does not.  The game didn't change.  We changed.

    Games today are like the music of today... catering to a generation not our own.
    Konfess
  • stealth80stealth80 helstonMember UncommonPosts: 29
    Playability and an involving world. Dungeons and end game is a must. A grind treadmill that actually feels like you are being rewarded. Trinkets and procs help make game play more involved. Good crafting




  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 127
    ArChWind said:
    tawess said:
    It would take 

    1: Money... A lot of money
    2: A dedicated team of highly skilled people 
    3: A strong leader with a clear vision
    4: Insane amounts of market research 
    5: A acceptances that all that money spent is gone and that the product might never be more than profitable.
    6: A entirely fresh generation of players. 
    7: A 10 year plan that is still agile enough to adapt. 
    8: A opening in the market
    9: Some tech breakthrough to open up said market
    10: Luck. 

    In short.... It ain´t ever going to happen. 
    1. I don't agree totally with but for sake of argument but stay away form crowdfunding!

    2. ABSOLUTELY.

    3. BEST but not always.

    4. That should be #1. Do research BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH. (Capitalized intentionally)

    5. MMOS do not make money. There are better products to make money from so yeah.

    6. Not necessarily.

    7. Depends on size and scope.

    8. New different? Always opening in the market.

    9. That comes from in house development to create the tech ones self not from cut paste someone else shit. It never works and NEVER will.

    10. Should be #2. With a little luck and little money and a LOT of (that scary four letter word) WORK one can make something maybe even the greatest of all time.

    Hopefully some will!

    ???? /crickets

    Nah BS on #4  Market research is what has put us all in the boat we are in now.  Shallow mass marketed overhyped micro transactioned crap.  Market research only shows devs how to best rape the customer base in the short term, not how to make a good game that will last.
  • TarzanGreenTarzanGreen Member UncommonPosts: 23
    btdt said:
    OP, ask yourself this one simple question...

    When you first fell in love with the genre, did you do a microanalysis on the game first before you ever stepped one foot into it?  I can pretty much guess with absolute certainty that you did not.

    That in itself should answer your question as to why you can't seem to find that same utopia today... you're overanalyzing things and are going in with expectations that doom the game before it ever even begins.

    The kids growing up today live in an entirely different world than we grew up in.  Most have had a cell phone as an appendage there ENTIRE life.  The genre was a success when the internet was still new... it WAS the cell phone of our times.  It doesn't fulfill that role anymore and it is why the new generation approach the game entirely different than we do.

    The game you are looking for, even if it were made, would not stand the test of time because you are not living in the past anymore.  Some people still play chess, the preponderance of the population does not.  The game didn't change.  We changed.

    Games today are like the music of today... catering to a generation not our own.
          That is true, I never did a micro analysis on the game. That’s cause my mind wasn’t at a place where I was designing/researching making a game. But really, does anyone start that way? Most people never will do this about games because they are just looking to play. I simply enjoy designing as well, wherever it leads I’m having a good time.  
  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIMember UncommonPosts: 1,282
    Dvora said:
    ArChWind said:
    tawess said:
    It would take 

    1: Money... A lot of money
    2: A dedicated team of highly skilled people 
    3: A strong leader with a clear vision
    4: Insane amounts of market research 
    5: A acceptances that all that money spent is gone and that the product might never be more than profitable.
    6: A entirely fresh generation of players. 
    7: A 10 year plan that is still agile enough to adapt. 
    8: A opening in the market
    9: Some tech breakthrough to open up said market
    10: Luck. 

    In short.... It ain´t ever going to happen. 
    1. I don't agree totally with but for sake of argument but stay away form crowdfunding!

    2. ABSOLUTELY.

    3. BEST but not always.

    4. That should be #1. Do research BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH. (Capitalized intentionally)

    5. MMOS do not make money. There are better products to make money from so yeah.

    6. Not necessarily.

    7. Depends on size and scope.

    8. New different? Always opening in the market.

    9. That comes from in house development to create the tech ones self not from cut paste someone else shit. It never works and NEVER will.

    10. Should be #2. With a little luck and little money and a LOT of (that scary four letter word) WORK one can make something maybe even the greatest of all time.

    Hopefully some will!

    ???? /crickets

    Nah BS on #4  Market research is what has put us all in the boat we are in now.  Shallow mass marketed overhyped micro transactioned crap.  Market research only shows devs how to best rape the customer base in the short term, not how to make a good game that will last.

    That is because THE MONEY is there. Make quick game as cheaply as possible, give is a lot of media hype, get as many preorders as possible (or in cases of KS, lots of backers), setup minimal equipment with a cash shop. That is profit, profit, and more profit. Dump the game when population thins (or not even released) and go into maintained mode then move to another project.

    Why do you think that is happening now?

    I personally tried to bring a game under private financial backing into this genre some years ago. It didn't catch on. NOT one person showed interest. It was exactly what some here say they wanted. Wide open world, in depth crafting, build all your own cities, every changing.

    It wasn't some pipe dream on some paper and asking for YOUR money in some hair brain scheme that will never get done. I showed actual functional shit that was working and got nothing but grief. The people that were backing me up with UP TO 40 MILLION dollars said "Sorry, it doesn't seem to be any interest" I agreed and said FK you all.

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 1,693
    ArChWind said:


    I personally tried to bring a game under private financial backing into this genre some years ago. It didn't catch on. NOT one person showed interest. It was exactly what some here say they wanted. Wide open world, in depth crafting, build all your own cities, every changing.

    It wasn't some pipe dream on some paper and asking for YOUR money in some hair brain scheme that will never get done. I showed actual functional shit that was working and got nothing but grief. The people that were backing me up with UP TO 40 MILLION dollars said "Sorry, it doesn't seem to be any interest" I agreed and said FK you all.

    Yeah, I can definitely sympathize with that.  I don't know how many times I've responded to a post about "We need a..."  or "Let's create a..." or "Help me flesh out..." to get no reaction except maybe a like or two.  And more especially, I see people crying out, "We need original MMO settings and concepts!" but of course they're not interested in my specific original MMO concept...

    The problem is human nature - even though we all strongly want something, we neither agree on what we want, nor want something cheap, nor want to pay for something expensive.  If I somehow magically had all the finding I could ever want to make a brilliant, gorgeous MMO and then advertise it vigorously to gather potential players, even this kind of amazing (to me) MMO would not, over its 5 or 6 year life-span, earn back enough money to not only pay all that back, but also pay salaries to the workers, and on top of that make enough profit that I could start making the next generation of game.
    Torval
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
Sign In or Register to comment.