All you MMO newbs were warned about F2P. Yet you supported it.

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  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,265
    immodium said:
    Torval said:
    Moirae said:
    I've always said that f2p games are a curse on the genre. 
    We all love our demons and scapegoats.
    The funny thing is what was originally killing the genre wasn't f2p, it was a forced subscription model.
    That's just straight up bullshit.

    Everything on the left side of this graph is growth with sub model.
    Image result for world of warcraft subscriptions
    GdemamiTorval

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDMember RarePosts: 3,685
    Nilden said:
    immodium said:
    Torval said:
    Moirae said:
    I've always said that f2p games are a curse on the genre. 
    We all love our demons and scapegoats.
    The funny thing is what was originally killing the genre wasn't f2p, it was a forced subscription model.
    That's just straight up bullshit.

    Everything on the left side of this graph is growth with sub model.
    Image result for world of warcraft subscriptions

    "The Future" in that graph never worked out.
    Torval
  • kashogikashogi merced, CAMember UncommonPosts: 7
    Of course everything on the left is showing growth. It was a new game and there was high interest. As the game got older it was only natural that people would lose interest and move on . It has nothing to do with the ftp model it's simply a decline in interest and competition from other games. Blizzard eventually had to open their options.
    Kyleran
  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,265
    kashogi said:
    Of course everything on the left is showing growth. It was a new game and there was high interest. As the game got older it was only natural that people would lose interest and move on . It has nothing to do with the ftp model it's simply a decline in interest and competition from other games. Blizzard eventually had to open their options.
    Yeah and my point was all of that growth was with a subscription model. Saying forced subscriptions originally killed the genre is bullshit.
    Gdemami

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,827
    Nilden said:
    kashogi said:
    Of course everything on the left is showing growth. It was a new game and there was high interest. As the game got older it was only natural that people would lose interest and move on . It has nothing to do with the ftp model it's simply a decline in interest and competition from other games. Blizzard eventually had to open their options.
    Yeah and my point was all of that growth was with a subscription model. Saying forced subscriptions originally killed the genre is bullshit.

    I don't think it's bullshit at all. I think that the idea has been around for quite a long time that people simply don't tend to carry more than one, maybe two, subscriptions. So that's the reason. I think that the push back against any sort of subscription is newer, but the subscription model was limiting for the genre, for sure. It was basically like, "Ok, you're subbed to EQ or WoW and then what?" If anything, F2P actually made the genre viable, since it made barrier to entry minimal and got players playing more than one MMORPG.
    Torval

    Crazkanuk

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  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,265
    CrazKanuk said:
    Nilden said:
    kashogi said:
    Of course everything on the left is showing growth. It was a new game and there was high interest. As the game got older it was only natural that people would lose interest and move on . It has nothing to do with the ftp model it's simply a decline in interest and competition from other games. Blizzard eventually had to open their options.
    Yeah and my point was all of that growth was with a subscription model. Saying forced subscriptions originally killed the genre is bullshit.

    I don't think it's bullshit at all. I think that the idea has been around for quite a long time that people simply don't tend to carry more than one, maybe two, subscriptions. So that's the reason. I think that the push back against any sort of subscription is newer, but the subscription model was limiting for the genre, for sure. It was basically like, "Ok, you're subbed to EQ or WoW and then what?" If anything, F2P actually made the genre viable, since it made barrier to entry minimal and got players playing more than one MMORPG.
    The entire birth, growth and development of the MMORPG genre was founded and supported by subscriptions for over a decade before F2P was even a thing.

    How can you support the claim that subscriptions killed the genre when they were the entire reason it was even alive?
    Gdemami

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,827
    Nilden said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Nilden said:
    kashogi said:
    Of course everything on the left is showing growth. It was a new game and there was high interest. As the game got older it was only natural that people would lose interest and move on . It has nothing to do with the ftp model it's simply a decline in interest and competition from other games. Blizzard eventually had to open their options.
    Yeah and my point was all of that growth was with a subscription model. Saying forced subscriptions originally killed the genre is bullshit.

    I don't think it's bullshit at all. I think that the idea has been around for quite a long time that people simply don't tend to carry more than one, maybe two, subscriptions. So that's the reason. I think that the push back against any sort of subscription is newer, but the subscription model was limiting for the genre, for sure. It was basically like, "Ok, you're subbed to EQ or WoW and then what?" If anything, F2P actually made the genre viable, since it made barrier to entry minimal and got players playing more than one MMORPG.
    The entire birth, growth and development of the MMORPG genre was founded and supported by subscriptions for over a decade before F2P was even a thing.

    How can you support the claim that subscriptions killed the genre when they were the entire reason it was even alive?

    Because as effective as it was at funding the few games that were out there, it was also limiting in that there was a limit to how many subscriptions people would be willing to pay, so it was limited. I'm not saying it killed the industry, but subscriptions inherently limited the growth of the genre because it wasn't only a consideration of the $50 box price anymore, it was an ongoing expense. Hey! Maybe that's a good thing though, right? Maybe the mainstreaming has diluted the genre with tire kickers, right?  
    TorvalConstantineMerus

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Nilden said:

    The entire birth, growth and development of the MMORPG genre was founded and supported by subscriptions for over a decade before F2P was even a thing.


    Sure .. and sub lost out to f2p because few players want to commit money when they can play for free. 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,799
    CrazKanuk said:
    Nilden said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Nilden said:
    kashogi said:
    Of course everything on the left is showing growth. It was a new game and there was high interest. As the game got older it was only natural that people would lose interest and move on . It has nothing to do with the ftp model it's simply a decline in interest and competition from other games. Blizzard eventually had to open their options.
    Yeah and my point was all of that growth was with a subscription model. Saying forced subscriptions originally killed the genre is bullshit.

    I don't think it's bullshit at all. I think that the idea has been around for quite a long time that people simply don't tend to carry more than one, maybe two, subscriptions. So that's the reason. I think that the push back against any sort of subscription is newer, but the subscription model was limiting for the genre, for sure. It was basically like, "Ok, you're subbed to EQ or WoW and then what?" If anything, F2P actually made the genre viable, since it made barrier to entry minimal and got players playing more than one MMORPG.
    The entire birth, growth and development of the MMORPG genre was founded and supported by subscriptions for over a decade before F2P was even a thing.

    How can you support the claim that subscriptions killed the genre when they were the entire reason it was even alive?

    Because as effective as it was at funding the few games that were out there, it was also limiting in that there was a limit to how many subscriptions people would be willing to pay, so it was limited. I'm not saying it killed the industry, but subscriptions inherently limited the growth of the genre because it wasn't only a consideration of the $50 box price anymore, it was an ongoing expense. Hey! Maybe that's a good thing though, right? Maybe the mainstreaming has diluted the genre with tire kickers, right?  
    Again, the issue is more the underlying market saturation.  You're right; folks aren't going to pay more than one or two subs a month.  That worked when there weren't dozens of MMORPGs, released and EA/crowdfunded, vying for cash from the same relatively small niche of gamers.

    A deluge of titles is not compatible with such a payment model.  Luckily, the western releases seemed to have slowed dramatically, which is much more compatible with creating games centered around longevity for each individual gamer, as opposed to the smash and grab kind of payment model that F2P supports.
    Gdemami

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,669
    edited October 30
    Being overlooked here is for whatever reason, players stopped playing the same MMORPG across a long period of time.

    The distribution curve for WOW is almost an anomaly by itself, with WOW being one of the few titles experiencing it.

    By around 2008 most every MMORPG developer was seeing a huge initial surge of launch day sales and then a rapid drop off begimning at almost at month one, rarely to uptick except at expansion time and never to recover fully and grow beyond launch.

    By the time SWTOR and TSW launched it was clear the sub model was no longer sustainable except for a few outliers.

    The folks at Zenimax were game to still try a sub only model with ESO but their rapid transition to a new model leads me to think they always had the switch in plan for when the inevitable decline came.

    Now it's very debatable why player behavior changed. Some claim devs were releasing uninspiring games not "worthy" of a sub, others point to changes in social media, smart phones, and player lifestyles as the root cause.

    Likely it is the combination of multiple factors, but perhaps the next round of indie created sub only games can prove whether the model can truly be viable in the modern age.
    Post edited by Kyleran on
    CrazKanukTorvalHatefullKyutaSyuko

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
      You're right; folks aren't going to pay more than one or two subs a month.  That worked when there weren't dozens of MMORPGs, released and EA/crowdfunded, vying for cash from the same relatively small niche of gamers.

    Lol .. "one or two subs a month"? Try zero. Nowadays, most players don't pay for any subs. 

    Sure, whales will pay through their nose (or should it be nozzle?) but they are paying to win, not subs. 

    MadFrenchie
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    edited October 31
    nariusseldon said:
    Lol .. "one or two subs a month"? Try zero. Nowadays, most players don't pay for any subs.

    Sure, whales will pay through their nose (or should it be nozzle?) but they are paying to win, not subs. 

    Freemium subs still count as subs. Plenty of people still play freemium games and pay their subscriptions.

    Subs in general are not dead. Subs as the prices of admission are dead, rotted away, and the bones picked clean though.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,781
    Eldurian said:
    nariusseldon said:
    Lol .. "one or two subs a month"? Try zero. Nowadays, most players don't pay for any subs.

    Sure, whales will pay through their nose (or should it be nozzle?) but they are paying to win, not subs. 

    Freemium subs still count as subs. Plenty of people still play freemium games and pay their subscriptions.

    Subs in general are not dead. Subs as the prices of admission are dead, rotted away, and the bones picked clean though.

    I only ever play TOR and ESO with a sub because a few of the small sub-only perks are dealbreakers for me. If I don't pay the sub I'm not playing. To me their sub-only games with other payment options for people who aren't annoyed by the things I am. It's a smart why to sell the game imo.

    Some other freemiums I still play subbed but their restrictions annoy me less so I occasionally play no-sub: LotRO and SWL are like this. I wouldn't play either long term  without a sub though because they're way too grindy without the pay boost.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Eldurian said:
    nariusseldon said:
    Lol .. "one or two subs a month"? Try zero. Nowadays, most players don't pay for any subs.

    Sure, whales will pay through their nose (or should it be nozzle?) but they are paying to win, not subs. 

    Freemium subs still count as subs. Plenty of people still play freemium games and pay their subscriptions.

    Subs in general are not dead. Subs as the prices of admission are dead, rotted away, and the bones picked clean though.

    Are you a whale? Sure there are millions of millions of gamers and you probably can find some.

    But most don't pay in f2p games. 

    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/177409-only-0-15-of-players-account-for-50-of-free-to-play-game-revenue

    and i quote "Only 0.15% of players account for half of free-to-play game revenue".
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,898
    and i quote "Only 0.15% of players account for half of free-to-play game revenue".
    Actually the interesting bit is "the other" half of games revenue...
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Gdemami said:
    and i quote "Only 0.15% of players account for half of free-to-play game revenue".
    Actually the interesting bit is "the other" half of games revenue...
    Do you mean ...

    "Only 49% of players even make a single purchase in a game." .. so almost half pays nothing ... 

    and 

    "By day three (of 14 tracked), players had already spent nearly 75% of the total money they’d spend in-game, assuming they spent any."

    So apparently, retaining most players is just not necessarily since most paying players will not pay after 3 days.

    Clearly, this is about the whales. 
    Gdemami
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,402
    immodium said:
    Torval said:
    Moirae said:
    I've always said that f2p games are a curse on the genre. 
    We all love our demons and scapegoats.
    The funny thing is what was originally killing the genre wasn't f2p, it was a forced subscription model.
    Yeah apparently people have forgotten how many of the current F2P titles died once as a full-box price + monthly sub fee and they were given a second chance by F2P model. 
    and how many can survive in a sea of games....P2P thrived when there wasnt much competition...Once WoW came along many of them started dying off and had to go with different payment options.
    ConstantineMerus
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,898
    Do you mean ...
    No, I don't...
  • MarrethielMarrethiel Member UncommonPosts: 1
    I think the reason MMO subscriptions don't seem to be working is that too many players would rather buy an item than "work" at earning it with 20 hours of play time. Early WoW for example, getting a paladin mount took a lot of work. Now you can just buy one. On one hand you had a guild where you played together and did challenges and spent time in a game, the other you buy the shiny things and then get bored. In other words, it is the ingame purchases themselves that are harming games. If you have spent years playing a game with friends, you are unlikely to move on because of a subscription; in my experience at least. I stopped playing MMO's when the challenge left as I watched people buy stuff I earnt.
    As I posted once on the wow forums, I'd like to see a refinement of the subscription model. One where you pay a dollar when you log in, up to a max of (say) 15 per month. This way you are enticing people to try a game for a day or two. Also if you go on holidays or work / school gets too busy you aren't paying. 

    Remember, if you aren't paying for something, you are the product that is sold.
  • bwwianakievbwwianakiev Member UncommonPosts: 32
    DjDriVer said:
    Consider this if you will...an example being WoW.  You pat $19 for World of Warcraft, then spend $15/month say for 4 yrs. Let's not forget the expansion every 2 yrs, which usually costs $50.  BAMM! you have just paid $820.00 for a game. go on, drive on down to Walmart and fork out $820.00 for a game, the wife will divorce you, not to mention having to take out a 2nd mortgage on the house to buy the game at that price.  F2p may try to gank you with an item mall, but that is by choice.
    This is an incredibly bad explanation.

    4 years of being entertained for thousands of hours for only $820 is a steal.

    You pay $40 just to see a movie that lasts measly a hour and half.

    I can pay my $20 for a game and get 8 hours of entertainment in the first day, and then 20+ hours of entertainment for $15 for the rest of the month.




    Well, yes and no. I have spent prolly a grand or more on WoW without buying cosmetics which I don't mind. I have played heroes of the storm for 2.5k hours. Have spent zero money and I have gotten a ton of free skins through lootboxes. That game, they did lootboxes right.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    I think the reason MMO subscriptions don't seem to be working is that too many players would rather buy an item than "work" at earning it with 20 hours of play time. 

    You mean the whales?

    So what? I wouldn't care less if others would buy items. I can always play the game the way i want to. Others don't affect me.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395


    Remember, if you aren't paying for something, you are the product that is sold.
    yeh .. and i will happily be a product if i am having fun. Note that i am obligated to treat the whales any differently than I treat NPCs. 
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYMember RarePosts: 1,053
    There are still sub games out there.

    Donald Trump needs to stop posting lies about F2P vs sub.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    There are still sub games out there.



    Sure .. but there are so few that they don't matter much. 
  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,522
    There are still sub games out there.

    Donald Trump needs to stop posting lies about F2P vs sub.

    Nari is Trump? Now it all makes sense. :)
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