So what is old school MMO really?

Maurgrim

I'm 40 years old, I've played games since my best friend got Pong in the early 80s but that's besides the point.
I see topics come up here and there about old school MMOs were better than the easy MMOs today sucks and are handheld.

Why were they better?

Well the there is one ONE thing that made those game better and they were sure as hell not better games, they sucked really bad, It was the community and only the community that made the games better.
Lets face It, was it fun to sit and camp mobs for hours or days just to get that weapon you really needed?
Was It fun to grind mobs for hours, days,weeks to gain a level?
Holy trinity?, really was it fun for you to wait for  a healer 1-2 hours a night? or a tank for that matter, everyone and his grandmother were playing dps classes or sitting around all night hoping for a CC class to join the raid, because old school CC class cant solo for shit.

So yeah the games sucked the community rocked, and that is the only thing I miss from the old days, the community not the games.

Daranar

100% Disagree.  Which is why I have given up on modern MMOs until Pantheon comes out and have started Project 1999.  It's far more than the community.   It actually was nice working hard for an epic weapon because when you had it, it meant something.  Even working hard for weapons in your 20s was nice.  No, modern minded players don't want to sit for days or weeks earning a weapon, why?  Because the very next day they will be 20 levels higher and that weapon will be garbage.   I couldn't disagree more with your post.

Plus even if you do accept the fact that the community was better, I have to ask why?   I'd argue the community was better because it forced you to work cooperatively with strangers which built community instead of everyone being able to solo and only really needing to 'use' people at certain times.

Maurgrim

Daranar said:

100% Disagree.  Which is why I have given up on modern MMOs until Pantheon comes out and have started Project 1999.  It's far more than the community.   It actually was nice working hard for an epic weapon because when you had it, it meant something.  Even working hard for weapons in your 20s was nice.  No, modern minded players don't want to sit for days or weeks earning a weapon, why?  Because the very next day they will be 20 levels higher and that weapon will be garbage.   I couldn't disagree more with your post.

Plus even if you do accept the fact that the community was better, I have to ask why?   I'd argue the community was better because it forced you to work cooperatively with strangers which built community instead of everyone being able to solo and only really needing to 'use' people at certain times.

Working hard?, by camping pointless trash mobs for weeks?
Or sitting hours on end for a dungeon because you needed a healer?
What is working hard?, they were not hard to kill, there were not anything hard or challenging of any sort, they were time consuming nothing else.

You call that a challenge?
I call that bad mechanic.

Forgrimm

Maurgrim said:

Why were they better?

They weren't.

Cryomatrix

My thought is that the novelty wore off, but then again, that is my issue. 

Cryomatrix

deniter

I can't talk about old school MMOs, really. My first MMO was vanilla WoW in 2005. But even then, i had a good picture in my mind how i'd have developed the game, on my first week in WoW, even on day one. Later, i have realised those old school MMOs were pretty much where i'd have taken WoW, at least partially so.

The 'old school MMOs' weren't very good games, that much i can tell even tho i never played them, but if i had to choose between them and the MMOs we have today i'd choose the oldies for sure, no question about that.

jpedrote52

You can't put it into a better or worse category because it's a matter of taste and what the player preffers/enjoys, no use in arguing over what's better because you'll never reach a conclusion or agreement. To me almost all current MMO's are garbage that's why I don't play them, but it doesn't mean I can't understand why other like them, these newer MMO's have vastly different philosophies, play styles and mechanics from older MMO's that's why I don't enjoy or play them, but it doesn't mean they're bad games, just a different type of game. That's why it all comes down to personal preference and each player choosing to play the game they enjoy the most.

jimmywolf

they had flaws but i loved everquest even  with all it's grinds they could have tone it down some to make it less all consuming ( which they did ) but i enjoy the game they made very much. it was my first MMO so it was easier to forgive it flaws.

my first memory in game of EQ i started little before lucins x pac 5 months or so,  was starting in greater faydark in tree city lost asking a npc for help an wondering why he was just starting at me been a dick even when i ask him nice. ( did not know what a npc was thought everyone was a player... ) going from their  to a lift down to the area below to see a wolf, did not know it was a player he said " Woof, want join my guild? "  blew my mind at the time.

Forgrimm

SedrynTyros said:

Forgrimm said:

Maurgrim said:

Why were they better?

They weren't.

Oh, they definitely were.  The MMOs now are a joke compared to the ones around when World of Warcraft was new.  They were more challenging and therefore more interesting.  And they attracted more competent players.  Nowadays you can suck ass and still excel in whatever MMO you're playing.  The entire genre has become one large, bad joke.

They were more tedious and time consuming, not better, not more interesting. 

Scorchien

 Ill agree that the communties were better for sure ..

 But imo some of the games are/were still better than todays offerings

  AC was a better MMORPG than 90% of the games in todays market (graphics aside)

  UO still offers more activities for a player to take part in than any other MMORPG available today

  Anarchy ONline still to this day has the most interesting classes and in depth builds dwarfing anyhting offered in this generation of MMORPGS ...

  Just a few ex..

Forgrimm

I had fun playing EQ back in 1999 - 2000 because mmo's were new territory at the time. I played with the same friends that I introduced to D&D 10 years before that, and EQ was the closest thing to digital D&D at the time. But I ultimately left EQ because the core gameplay sucked. It was tedious and dull. It was a mindless grind where even simple things took way too much time. The only reason we played as long as we did was because there's wasn't much in the way of alternatives.

Albatroes

Some games were better in the long term compared to now, but the real thing is that you had limited choice back then compared to now, so obviously things felt better. Stuff was so annoying to do that it would often times limit how many characters you created, so it kind of forced a bond with said character. Transfers were either non-existent or had long real life cool downs in how often you could do them so it forced you to not be a prick on your server. A lot of those restrictions are gone due to competition and companies trying to one-up each other to seem more appealing and get more people interested.

Soki123

Simply put, community. You actually needed one and friends , unlike now where you just hit a button.

Excession

I think it is more a feeling than anything tangible that makes an old school mmo, an old school mmo.

I have played pretty much every major MMO out there, and a few not so major.

I had the most fun by far, playing SWG, and to me, SWG is the best MMO ever made, and nothing before, or since, has come close to replicating the feeling and the fun I had while playing it.

Obviously I have changed as the years have gone by, so has the MMO community, and of course so have MMOs.

I honestly think that part of the problem is us, we are trying to grab hold of something that does not, and can not, exist anymore, because that time has passed.

Or maybe it is just that MMOs these days are poorly developed piles of shit and I have had too many beers.

nariusseldon

"so what is old school mmo really?"

Something no longer fun and got eclipsed by action RPGs, MOBAs, small group shooters .. or the new "MMOs" as websites start to classify them as such. 

Cryomatrix

Xodic said:

Maurgrim said:

I'm 40 years old, I've looked at colors since my best friend got a coloring book in the early 80s but that's besides the point.
I see topics come up here and there about blue is better than red.

Why is blue better?

I like blue.

Things outlined in Red are usually bad. 

- Like debt, bad laboratory blood results, how your teacher marks up your homework. Red lights are red. 

So blue is definitely preferred, plus the sky is blue. 

Cryomatrix

kjempff

Well yes community were slightly better in old mmos, but I wouldn't describe it as a major factor. Communities only form around games the players get invested in, and those games get to that point by offering a long term meaningful experience. A few modern mmos can fill those requirements, and when they do community is a side effect. I have not found a modern mmo that gives me a long term meaningful experience, but others have different definitions of what makes a mmo just that.

Eq is for me the only mmo that delivers that long term meaningful experience (not todays live eq which is a shell of what it used to be), and that is because the game mechanics makes me invest in my characters and rewards me for playing well (and punishes me when I don't). I have played a lot of wow but before that a lot of eq, and in wow I always had this feeling that it was a little simple toy game compared to eq, and that I was only messing around while waiting for a real mmo to come and improve on eq game style - It never happened, but at that time I could not imagine that this toy game I was playing would set the template for all new mmos.. the far superior eq mechanics surely had to be the base for some new game that would take it even further.

In eq I cared about my character, but in every single mmo since I have not really cared, because no real consequences for messing up, to real challenges, not much feeling of accomplishment for my effort, lack of versatility and being forced into a specific character role and play style. This is at least why that particular old school game is the one that to this day (through eq emulator projects) can keep me interested for months compared to the new mmos that I bore out of in weeks (they are just so generic and forced in comparison). Whether eq can be used as a common descriptor of "old school" I cannot say, but that one is my reference.

delete5230

That was 1999 !  
What would you expect from that era ?  
Making 3D games itself was a chore ! 

You can't compare, 
It's like comparing the first automobile to a brand new modern bicycle.  I say bicycle because mmos didn't evolve into mmos, their just video games.

cheyane

All the things the OP has talked about is true.

I have been playing on the Project 1999 of late and I am realising that I have changed so much.  While I have no problems with the graphics and admit that some of it has a peculiar charm that those of us who have played the Original Everquest can attest to I am no longer that naive first timer. I am rather good at playing these types of games therefore I am not as daunted as I was before when I played it as green first timer with my first online video game. I can take things slow and boy is the soloing in some cases slow but I am knitting, crocheting and watching  some television on my Samsung tablet while I get my health and mana back up.

I realise the game for what it is and opportunities it afforded to building a good community. People talk to each other. Only yesterday while catassing some experience I got into a nice conversation with an Erudite enchanter and I went looking for him to give him a SOW and he a breeze in return. I also buffed him and others without expecting anything in return.

People stop send tells and talk to you when they pass by for no reason other than to just talk. Tell me how often does that happen today in a new game. While it is completely true that the old systems sucked donkey's balls and soloing a paladin I can tell you is no joke with horrible gear at that it is with a sense of pride I feel as I ding a level. I totally agree it was needlessly tedious and will not appeal to a lot of players but I do honestly think that you need some horrific system like this for players to engage and talk to each other. Players have become so inured in not interacting with others it has become a badge to accomplish stuff with minimum talking and time.

There are rules to follow and you need to ask if something is camped and you can also ask to be included. Yes it sucks that the higher levels take over areas meant for groups but with every good thing you have the bad and the raid scene in Project 1999 ai ..ya..ya yai very bad. I can totally see how the bullying is much worse than when I remember back in 1999 to 2003 or 2 when I played this is leaps and bounds worse because the server is locked on the Velious Expansion.

However as a journey to level 60 it is a remarkable experience that is truly unattainable today even in Elysium WoW simply because WoW is a far too easy a game. Nothing wrong with that but in Project 1999 you can actually feel like you are part of the world and not some quiet creepy playground where the players devolve into passing NPCs.

I am not sure you can get the community without the bad things the OP described and that my friend is perhaps the saddest indictment of us as players and human beings.

bcbully

No quest helpers

Loke666

Some things were better. others not.

Todays endgame for instance suck at least as much as spawncamping. You reach the endgame after just a few weeks of playing and it gets you stuck in a small repetetive part of the game.

What oldschool games did better was portion out the content.

Both oldschool and new games have about the same layout of the content. You have around 25% of the game with starting and low level zones, 50% for medium to just below max level and the last 25% for max level. In a new MMO that last part is 10-15% open world, 5-10% dungeons and 5% raids. Yes, it is simplified but still basically true for most games.

It made totally sense when getting to max level took 3-9 months for the average players but when it takes 3-5 weeks it is terrible, you get stuck in a small portion of the game until an expansion comes out after that.

The endgame is the reason people spend less time today in a MMO then 10 or 20 years ago.

Then we have the difficulty. Oldschool started out easy and slowly ramped up the difficulty as you leveled. That way it eased people in and when they reached hard most have learned to play well.

New MMOs are easy until you hit the endgame that suddenly is hard and most people get shocked when they start on it.

Some things are certainly better today, the UIs are better, you have far more stable games and things like selling an item was work in the old days. But other things are worse.

Akulas

What made it fun was server pride and you literally knew everyone that was on in your time zone and any gear upgrade you got was meaningful. Bring that back. Things I don't miss are corpse runs and grinding a week to get a level.

Viper482

1. Community. Not world chat, not just your guild....but a virtual neighborhood in which it seemed everyone knew each other. If you were a troll (otherwise known at the time as an arse) you got a reputation for it. Everything below this #1 on the list had a role in making this #1. Literally just about everything that made the old school MMOs what they were revolved around community. 

2. Crafting reliance. Everyone needed a crafter, and every craft had to rely on other crafts. If you were making leather armor, you would need to buy buckles from a blacksmith, or cloth from a tailor. After that you would need an enchanter to give it stats. And becoming a top tier crafting took so much time it was near impossible for you to have it all yourself via alts. This helped to make #1 important and created living, thriving virtual economies.

3. Server/Realm Pride. This is mainly a Daoc reference but applies to others as well. There were no such thing as server transfers. If you wanted to change servers you had to reroll on that server. GW2 server WvW is a joke because everyone just transfers to the better servers instead of finding ways to get better. And for PvP you could not simply logout of your losing side Alliance in order to login to your winning side horde toon. Once you chose a side you either played it or rerolled it on another server. This also had a place in the creation and importance of #1.

4. Group content. You actually had to make friends, which resulted in less jerks in the community. The bad people would tend to have to stay among themselves because they were shunned. See #1 once again. You could solo, but grouping in most MMOs gave bonus experience, actually promoting socializing with others outside of a world chat room....imagine that. #community.

5. Skills unique to certain classes or races that were highly desired by others. Need rez at loc XXXX" "LF SOW!" (EQ Spirit of the Wolf buff gave you super speed for long runs...no fast travel) "LF Gate to (insert city here)", need corpse run (another EQ thing). Running through newbie land tossing high level buffs on the low levels and making their day, because they actually worked as high level buffs still. Once again....this promoted #1. Some would sell their buff services, others would be happy to get tips for them. But overall, it helped form a sense of community. 

This are the top 5 for me, all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.  

Viper482

DMKano said:

It doesnt matter if they were better, worse or same.

The only thing that matters is if enough players will play and be willing to spend money on it to make the games sustainable.

IMO the masses have turned away from old school longterm - will some play Pantheon for a few months, sure.

Will masses stick around for years? Not a chance.

Hopefully enough remain to make the game financially viable.

There were no "masses" in old school MMO's. They were and still are a niche genre. The masses started actually playing MMOs thanks to WoW, as I am sure we all know. Vanilla WoW still had some old school flavor to it, but was Disney compared to EQ at the time, which is why it attracted more people. WoW brought in the masses, WoW clones trying to capitalize on its success took the genre in a new direction. Fans of these MMOs would never have enjoyed an early type MMO such as EQ....which is probably why they were not playing it. 

Rottstein

Maurgrim said:

Daranar said:

100% Disagree.  Which is why I have given up on modern MMOs until Pantheon comes out and have started Project 1999.  It's far more than the community.   It actually was nice working hard for an epic weapon because when you had it, it meant something.  Even working hard for weapons in your 20s was nice.  No, modern minded players don't want to sit for days or weeks earning a weapon, why?  Because the very next day they will be 20 levels higher and that weapon will be garbage.   I couldn't disagree more with your post.

Plus even if you do accept the fact that the community was better, I have to ask why?   I'd argue the community was better because it forced you to work cooperatively with strangers which built community instead of everyone being able to solo and only really needing to 'use' people at certain times.

Working hard?, by camping pointless trash mobs for weeks?
Or sitting hours on end for a dungeon because you needed a healer?
What is working hard?, they were not hard to kill, there were not anything hard or challenging of any sort, they were time consuming nothing else.

You call that a challenge?
I call that bad mechanic.

I'm at a loss here. Are you saying that older MMO's weren't more challenging?  They definitely were. 

In old school MMO's you fought one mob and hoped that you didn't get an add.  Nowadays MMO's you try to kill as many at one time as possible,  "another group of mobs coming while I kill these 12?  That's fine I can handle 4 more!"

While waiting for a healer or CC might not be fun, it was because the world required it.  It wasn't face-roll easy that any "melee" class could tank it, you needed to specialize being a tank, or a healer, or a CC.  There was not today's "anybody can be everything" games which when the poop hits the fan your dps can just switch to healing.

Scot

Well the question in the title was "What are old school MMOs", but in the OP's post it is "Why were they better".

You are asking these questions as if there are posters on here that think we can remake old MMOs with exactly the same mechanics but updated graphics and they will be in heaven and the game will be an incredible success.

Can you find one of these posters for us? Can you find someone on here who thinks old school is the answer to every problem MMOs have today?

I like many others think some of today's MMO problems come from them being too divergent from old MMO principles. That does not mean we want everything back just the way it was, a hybrid of old and new school would be the starting point.