Star Citizen 3.0 - Refusing Refunds

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  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 8,304
    Rhime said:
    Always something to piss and moan about. Why would anyone want a refund now when the biggest and most important update of the game is almost in the public's hands? Crying about refunds after at least trying it makes more sense and frankly, would be a relief to see them go too...win/win for all of us!
    Maybe because there will always be a, "biggest and most important update of the game...almost in the public's hands" and people are just tired of waiting?  It seems we've left the world of development as a means to produce a product that earns revenue in favor of a world where development actually earns the revenue which begs the question, if you can earn revenue simply through developing a game, why would you ever release the game?

    I see a lot of people that still have not accepted the fact that developing a complex game takes a significant amount of time (5 years is not unusual, sometimes more ... I recommend reading up on the development of all the X-Com games if you really want to hear a complex story).

    Some people are just tired of waiting because they were there on Day 0. And they are not used to that.

    Usually the first time they hear about a game is on Day 1700ish. And it launches on Day 1900ish.

    Patience is a virtue.



    Have fun

    OrinoriMellowTigger
  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAMember RarePosts: 1,952
    Erillion said:
    Rhime said:
    Always something to piss and moan about. Why would anyone want a refund now when the biggest and most important update of the game is almost in the public's hands? Crying about refunds after at least trying it makes more sense and frankly, would be a relief to see them go too...win/win for all of us!
    Maybe because there will always be a, "biggest and most important update of the game...almost in the public's hands" and people are just tired of waiting?  It seems we've left the world of development as a means to produce a product that earns revenue in favor of a world where development actually earns the revenue which begs the question, if you can earn revenue simply through developing a game, why would you ever release the game?

    I see a lot of people that still have not accepted the fact that developing a complex game takes a significant amount of time (5 years is not unusual, sometimes more ... I recommend reading up on the development of all the X-Com games if you really want to hear a complex story).

    Some people are just tired of waiting because they were there on Day 0. And they are not used to that.

    Usually the first time they hear about a game is on Day 1700ish. And it launches on Day 1900ish.

    Patience is a virtue.



    Have fun

    Again revising history. Roberts said they could do it in 2 or 3 or whatever. Its been 6 as of now and its going to be another who knows how long before anything resembling anything playable is released.

    But keep rewriting what these guys have said since they first announced it (which wasnt day 0 it was more like day 350).

    3.09 has been what you guys have been chirping for a year now, (after it was delayed 10 months ago). Also where is SQ 42? I really thought they would push that, but since they havent it painfully obvious they cant even make that right now, because THAT would be MUCH easier to deliver (and satisfy some legalese statements) and it would also generate actual revenue and maybe if it was actually playable get the buzz back. Doing SQ 42 was a win win win proposition, and them NOT doing it first says much more about where they are overall than anything else.

    there isnt a single reason why they wouldnt focus on SQ 42, especially since they sort of switched the focus of that BEFOPRE they started selling the 3.0 hype. 

    Either way there isnt much of anything any pro SC person will have to say here in a few weeks. Because if 3.0 isnt on the PTU for everyone or there continues to be delays with it (all the while selling more crap here in a couple weeks) its the end.
    Rhime
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    edited October 12
    Nobody is rewriting what they said. They said 2-3 years. That was a ridiculous goal given what they are promising. 

    Nearly every MMO pushes release dates though. AAA titles included. They had to push theirs pretty far given how far off base they were. But if you think that's something to be overly concerned about and expected them to meet their release date, clearly this is your first time following an MMO pre-release.

    I've lost count how many times I've followed an MMO pre-release, and know that this is pretty par for the course, so I'm really not concerned at all. Pushed release dates are the most minor problem you'll find in pre-release MMOs.

    I expect more delays, I expect failed promises and dropped features, and I expect spoiled brats QQing every step of the way. But I also expect that when this project is brought back in-line with reality it's going to be a damn amazing game.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
    Erillion
  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAMember RarePosts: 1,952
    Eldurian said:
    Nobody is rewriting what they said. They said 2-3 years. That was a ridiculous goal given what they are promising. 

    Nearly every MMO pushes release dates though. AAA titles included. They had to push theirs pretty far given how far off base they were. But if you think that's something to be overly concerned about and expected them to meet their release date, clearly this is your first time following an MMO pre-release.

    I've lost count how many times I've followed an MMO pre-release, and know that this is pretty par for the course, so I'm really not concerned at all. Pushed release dates are the most minor problem you'll find in pre-release MMOs.
    OK even if you want to give them that what about what there actually is?
    What they have shown they CAN do and more importantly what they CANT do. They arent delivering on anything groundbreaking. They really arent delivering on anything at all basically. they havent even got the BASICS of what it takes to make an online game (I will even stop calling it an MMO since backers did along time ago). 

    Then of course we have all the reports that it takes around 20 GB RAM to even come close to having the game run let alone run decently. SO guys are looking at 32 GB RAM right now and even that gets them maybe 25-30 FPS. Then of course glitches and bugs and all the other goodies that really arent bugs but their inability to make the things work in the 'space' they want them to work in.

    But as usual way off topic. 
    Mensur
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    "OK even if you want to give them that what about what there actually is?"

    I like what there actually is. It's quite fun.

    "Then of course we have all the reports that it takes around 20 GB RAM to even come close to having the game run let alone run decently."


    This game was promised and promoted as needing a high end PC to run if from the very onset. If this is a concern for you then you never should have kickstarted it because they have always said this would be the case.

    Maybe if you had listened and bought a computer capable of running it, you might be able to enjoy the content they have out right now like I can.
  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAMember RarePosts: 1,952
    Eldurian said:
    "OK even if you want to give them that what about what there actually is?"

    I like what there actually is. It's quite fun.

    "Then of course we have all the reports that it takes around 20 GB RAM to even come close to having the game run let alone run decently."


    This game was promised and promoted as needing a high end PC to run if from the very onset. If this is a concern for you then you never should have kickstarted it because they have always said this would be the case.

    Maybe if you had listened and bought a computer capable of running it, you might be able to enjoy the content they have out right now like I can.
    LMAO when they first announced it there wasnt a computer made that could run it. So yeah I guess you would have needed a high end computer (and a time machine) to run it. And I am not stupid enough to give Roberts a frigging penny.

    Well I am sure youre one of the only ones enjoying the current 'content' I suspect if what you see is what you get your happy go lucky attitude is going to change.
    RhimeMensur
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    edited October 12
    So you are another one of those people who hasn't played any of the existing content, but feels more qualified than people who have to tell us how terrible it is.

    You know, there are multiple projects highly hyped atm that I think are terrible and destined to sink. Pantheon really doesn't look that different from the same old shit we've been getting for 10+ years of the MMO industry and Ashes of Creation's lead dev is a total snake who's looking to make an ArcheAge clone for him and his buddies to stomp on anyone they can con into buying it. Other than a couple posts on AoC where I've detailed how the AoC's creators guild is already recruiting for AoC and how dishonest and corrupt they were in ArcheAge (About 5 posts total) I don't sit there going to their forums wasting their time with my thoughts on why their game will fail. If they want to buy into it, let them.

    It is mindboggling to me how there are so many people who have no cash invested in this game, have not tried any of the content, and really are just overall ignorant who apparently have nothing better to do with their day then come tell us how terrible it's going to be across dozens and dozens of posts.

    Get a damn life.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • sgelsgel Member RarePosts: 1,588
    I've payed for it.
    I've played it.
    It's horribly optimized and has hardly any content.
    What content it does have is rather boring and uninspired.
    Maybe 3.0 will change that.. but right now there's a myriad of other games I'd rather give my time to.

    I'm eagerly waiting for your excuse as to how I can't possibly foam at the mouth at this amazing piece of software engineering.
    kikoodutroa8Excession

    ..Cake..

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    @sgel
    Eldurian said:

    There are downsides to being overly pessimistic all the time but then there are people who make insanely optimistic predictions that will absolutely never come true, and that's about 90% of the people throwing a fit about Star Citizen right now. And throwing a fit about every other kickstarter project on every other kickstarter's forums. And who were throwing a fit about how buggy the release of AAA games were back when the MMO market still had AAA investors.

    They're also they kind of people you see screaming at store clerks when you go to the store and the baristas/waiters at your favorite places to eat.

    They have this expectation of how the world should be that was never grounded in reality and get mad as hell when reality doesn't live up to it.

    I think the healthiest people live somewhere between super pessimist and prince/princess level optimism. 


    Eldurian said:
    Nobody is rewriting what they said. They said 2-3 years. That was a ridiculous goal given what they are promising. 

    Nearly every MMO pushes release dates though. AAA titles included. They had to push theirs pretty far given how far off base they were. But if you think that's something to be overly concerned about and expected them to meet their release date, clearly this is your first time following an MMO pre-release.

    I've lost count how many times I've followed an MMO pre-release, and know that this is pretty par for the course, so I'm really not concerned at all. Pushed release dates are the most minor problem you'll find in pre-release MMOs.

    I expect more delays, I expect failed promises and dropped features, and I expect spoiled brats QQing every step of the way. But I also expect that when this project is brought back in-line with reality it's going to be a damn amazing game.

    Excession
  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAMember RarePosts: 1,952
    Eldurian said:
    So you are another one of those people who hasn't played any of the existing content, but feels more qualified than people who have to tell us how terrible it is.

    You know, there are multiple projects highly hyped atm that I think are terrible and destined to sink. Pantheon really doesn't look that different from the same old shit we've been getting for 10+ years of the MMO industry and Ashes of Creation's lead dev is a total snake who's looking to make an ArcheAge clone for him and his buddies to stomp on anyone they can con into buying it. Other than a couple posts on AoC where I've detailed how the AoC's creators guild is already recruiting for AoC and how dishonest and corrupt they were in ArcheAge (About 5 posts total) I don't sit there going to their forums wasting their time with my thoughts on why their game will fail. If they want to buy into it, let them.

    It is mindboggling to me how there are so many people who have no cash invested in this game, have not tried any of the content, and really are just overall ignorant who apparently have nothing better to do with their day then come tell us how terrible it's going to be across dozens and dozens of posts.

    Get a damn life.
    none of the games you listed were a 160 million dollar ponzi scheme and those games actually existed.
    GdemamiRhime
  • OrinoriOrinori Member UncommonPosts: 336
    A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator generates returns for older investors through revenue paid by new investors. With that in mind, what on earth are you referring to?
    EldurianMellowTigger
  • PopplePopple Utica, NYMember UncommonPosts: 223
    Kyleran said:
    Erillion said:
    Sounds to me like they expect some people to change their minds once those wanting a refund get their hands on 3.0

    Until then CIG may want to play the waiting and delaying game.

    My personal guess would be that 3.0 may be available to all backers at the time of CitizenCon at the end of October, maybe as one of the announcements during that event.


    Have fun
    I suspect they feel once 3.0 gets delivered they'll have met the legal requirements that the product is in a usable state.

    Assuming there is such legal requirements on pledges and donations which I'm suspecting there might not be.

    People keep treating this as if they've "bought" something which is clearly not the case.

    Yes, a court might disagree,  but courts and lawyers cost money which is to RIs advantage.

    All the progress reports are stalls to get people to wait as 3.0 is "almost here" and they as they are telling people their requests are still under consideration, they haven't formally denied the refund yet.

    Probably still time to do a chargeback though....



    In the US you can take them to small claim court you dont need a Lawyer.The cost ls low that a poor person can take them to court...As anyone who knows, if you believe you are in the right and they are in the wrong you can take them to court here in the USA at a low cost..

    I retired retroactively..Haha

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    edited October 12
    @rodarin

    Um.... those games are Kickstarter projects on the hype list right now. They exist in a lesser state than Star Citizen currently does. Also Ponzi scheme are schemes where you pay back the initial investors with money earned from later investors. Given I invested before they even started announcing stretch goals I'd like to know where my check is.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,133
    Eldurian said:
    @rodarin

    Um.... those games are Kickstarter projects on the hype list right now. They exist in a lesser state than Star Citizen currently does. Also Ponzi scheme are schemes where you pay back the initial investors with money earned from later investors. Given I invested before they even started announcing stretch goals I'd like to know where my check is.
    Pantheon looks to already have more content then SC will in the next few years. It doesn't look as good but they aren't going for bleeding edge graphics that will murder your connection when you are in a area with more then 6 people. 

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,506
    Eldurian said:

    I like what there actually is. It's quite fun.

    What part is fun for you?  Is it Star Marine?  Which of the 16 missions are you running over and over to have fun?  Are you just jumping into the pvp mode over and over again? 

    I have not played the pvp mode but I would assume that would be fun for a while assuming you have the right ship. 

    I flew a few missions and found them boring after the third time I did them.

    I waited 20 minutes in Star Marine multiplayer on a Sunday afternoon (peak playtime) and not a single person jumped into a match.  I found it to be a bare-bones FPS that needed a lot of work. 


    Excession
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAMember RarePosts: 1,952
    Kefo said:
    Eldurian said:
    @rodarin

    Um.... those games are Kickstarter projects on the hype list right now. They exist in a lesser state than Star Citizen currently does. Also Ponzi scheme are schemes where you pay back the initial investors with money earned from later investors. Given I invested before they even started announcing stretch goals I'd like to know where my check is.
    Pantheon looks to already have more content then SC will in the next few years. It doesn't look as good but they aren't going for bleeding edge graphics that will murder your connection when you are in a area with more then 6 people. 

    yes and Pantheon is being made by perhaps the only guy WORSE than Chris Roberts when it comes to actually delivering a game. BUT I think McQuaid did have a project he was in charge of before. Cant remember everything that went on with it though.

    I just know theyre cut from the same cloth.

    BUT It does look like Pantheon has other involved that are actually looking to produce and deliver a game and not just have people support them.

    As for the games, I saw Archeage (I guess it was 'clone') and AoC which to me will always be Age of Conan. regardless those games are what 3 or 4 months on the hype machine? And they (placeholders not withstanding) seemingly further along in an actual MMO level than SC is,

    SC has a couple instances you can fly around in and a few ships you can fly and a hanger (lobby basically) that you can hang out with a few people in.

    I am not going down the road of what they have or dont have the fact is for the time they have had and the money they have been given the 'content' is laughable.
  • ZandogZandog Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 62
    Erillion said:
    >>> rampant refund requests >>>

    Interesting .... i am sure you have some data to show us that this claim is true. Or is this just your OPINION ? 


    Have fun 
    A very basic and limited form of data for this (as no company would normally allow this information into the wild as it could badly hurt them) can be found by running some metrics on the Starcitizen_Refunds subreddit. LINK

    It does show an increase in the past year, and while this may be people just interested in the drama, the amount of posts from people getting refunds has increased in recent months.

    I have no care whether that refund sub helps or hinders but they continue to demonstrate how big of a desperate joke it has been lately.
    Opinion only matters when accompanied by logic. 
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,506
    Zandog said:

    I have no care whether that refund sub helps or hinders but they continue to demonstrate how big of a desperate joke it has been lately.
    OMG, while I have some issues with how this game is managed and the insane amount of support some people have for it (posting 5 times a day for years).  You have got to be a sad individual to hate enough to post fake refunds every few days. 

    Kind of makes me sad that I am the same species as this person. 
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,133
    rodarin said:
    Kefo said:
    Eldurian said:
    @rodarin

    Um.... those games are Kickstarter projects on the hype list right now. They exist in a lesser state than Star Citizen currently does. Also Ponzi scheme are schemes where you pay back the initial investors with money earned from later investors. Given I invested before they even started announcing stretch goals I'd like to know where my check is.
    Pantheon looks to already have more content then SC will in the next few years. It doesn't look as good but they aren't going for bleeding edge graphics that will murder your connection when you are in a area with more then 6 people. 

    yes and Pantheon is being made by perhaps the only guy WORSE than Chris Roberts when it comes to actually delivering a game. BUT I think McQuaid did have a project he was in charge of before. Cant remember everything that went on with it though.

    I just know theyre cut from the same cloth.

    BUT It does look like Pantheon has other involved that are actually looking to produce and deliver a game and not just have people support them.

    As for the games, I saw Archeage (I guess it was 'clone') and AoC which to me will always be Age of Conan. regardless those games are what 3 or 4 months on the hype machine? And they (placeholders not withstanding) seemingly further along in an actual MMO level than SC is,

    SC has a couple instances you can fly around in and a few ships you can fly and a hanger (lobby basically) that you can hang out with a few people in.

    I am not going down the road of what they have or dont have the fact is for the time they have had and the money they have been given the 'content' is laughable.
    Oh I agree McQuaid has seriously screwed up especially in the early days of Pantheon when it came out he took an advance from the kickstarter funds. And he kinda screwed the pooch on Vanguard in terms of its release.

    But the difference between McQuaid and Roberts in my opinion is McQuaid can admit he fucked up and takes steps to try and fix the problem whereas Roberts will try and misdirect, rewrite history or just blame it on someone else. 




    Mensur
  • ShodanasShodanas PatrasMember RarePosts: 1,861
    rodarin said:
    Eldurian said:
    So you are another one of those people who hasn't played any of the existing content, but feels more qualified than people who have to tell us how terrible it is.

    You know, there are multiple projects highly hyped atm that I think are terrible and destined to sink. Pantheon really doesn't look that different from the same old shit we've been getting for 10+ years of the MMO industry and Ashes of Creation's lead dev is a total snake who's looking to make an ArcheAge clone for him and his buddies to stomp on anyone they can con into buying it. Other than a couple posts on AoC where I've detailed how the AoC's creators guild is already recruiting for AoC and how dishonest and corrupt they were in ArcheAge (About 5 posts total) I don't sit there going to their forums wasting their time with my thoughts on why their game will fail. If they want to buy into it, let them.

    It is mindboggling to me how there are so many people who have no cash invested in this game, have not tried any of the content, and really are just overall ignorant who apparently have nothing better to do with their day then come tell us how terrible it's going to be across dozens and dozens of posts.

    Get a damn life.
    none of the games you listed were a 160 million dollar ponzi scheme and those games actually existed.
    Ponzi scheme ? Really now ?

    Elduran is right. Get a damn life or at least try to do something else with your time other than ridiculing yourself on these boards.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,506
    Kefo said:

    But the difference between McQuaid and Roberts in my opinion is McQuaid can admit he fucked up and takes steps to try and fix the problem whereas Roberts will try and misdirect, rewrite history or just blame it on someone else.

    That is the one thing about Chris and CIG that really frustrates me.  Why is it so hard for them to be honest?  As an example, when the space door issue came up, why not feature it on the videos and let people know it was to help market the game and use in publicity shots?  Why lie and say it was two wooden doors that were laying around and a garage door opener? 
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • ShodanasShodanas PatrasMember RarePosts: 1,861
    Talonsin said:
    Kefo said:

    But the difference between McQuaid and Roberts in my opinion is McQuaid can admit he fucked up and takes steps to try and fix the problem whereas Roberts will try and misdirect, rewrite history or just blame it on someone else.

    That is the one thing about Chris and CIG that really frustrates me.  Why is it so hard for them to be honest?  As an example, when the space door issue came up, why not feature it on the videos and let people know it was to help market the game and use in publicity shots?  Why lie and say it was two wooden doors that were laying around and a garage door opener? 
    Space door issue ? You're hilarious. The only "issue" was in DS's mind, yours as well it seems. He tried to pull this out of proportion, trying to make a "bad CR / CIG story" out of nowhere and guess what.. no one gave a rat's ass. Except you, 2 others on these boards and the goons.

    The fact that you had to necro this "issue" and use as your argument speaks volumes about your mindset.

    I've backed a dozen games and SC has by far the most transparent development process. Nothing else comes even close. Unless you can direct me to a KS project with weekly and monthly reports regarding development with every team leader describing in detail what his team is / was working on.

    Ponzi scheme, space door "issue".. these are the arguments you and other detractors have to show for.


    Excession
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    Talonsin said:
    Eldurian said:

    I like what there actually is. It's quite fun.

    What part is fun for you?  Is it Star Marine?  Which of the 16 missions are you running over and over to have fun?  Are you just jumping into the pvp mode over and over again? 

    I have not played the pvp mode but I would assume that would be fun for a while assuming you have the right ship. 

    I flew a few missions and found them boring after the third time I did them.

    I waited 20 minutes in Star Marine multiplayer on a Sunday afternoon (peak playtime) and not a single person jumped into a match.  I found it to be a bare-bones FPS that needed a lot of work. 


    Yes it's the multiplayer matchmaking I consider fairly well done at this point. Once you get past the fact that you actually have to train to get good at it, and can't run it effectively on a potato.

    To compare it to Chris Robert's last game (Freelancer) which was  considered insanely fun by me and thousands of other people they had:

    -The same few missions you could run over and over and over
    -Trading with static goods sold and bought at static prices on different stations.
    -Mining (Not very profitable)
    -NPC Factions you could have Reputations With
    -Open World with PvP on small servers (50 was average 250 was the largest)

    The last one of which was what made it such an enduring and beloved game. SC currently has:

    -The same few missions you can run over and over and over
    -Arena PvP (Space and Infantry)
    -Singleplayer solo racing and Multiplayer racing
    -Open World with PvP on small instances (PTU)

    Even pre 3.0 we're getting very close to having a lot of the content in SC that was in Freelancer (A game I still consider a masterpiece). Mind you the infantry portion is very rough but that didn't even exist in freelancer. Multi-man ships didn't exist in Freelancer. 3.0 should bring us very close to what Freelancer was with a lot of additional content it never had.



  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,133
    @Eldurian ;

    Chris Roberts might have thought up freelancer but it was Microsoft who made it what it is when it released. The only credit CR should have for that game besides thinking up the idea is running the project into the ground. So if you want to thank someone thank a big soulless company for making a game you found to be insanely fun.
    Excession
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,506
    Shodanas said:
    Talonsin said:
    Kefo said:

    But the difference between McQuaid and Roberts in my opinion is McQuaid can admit he fucked up and takes steps to try and fix the problem whereas Roberts will try and misdirect, rewrite history or just blame it on someone else.

    That is the one thing about Chris and CIG that really frustrates me.  Why is it so hard for them to be honest?  As an example, when the space door issue came up, why not feature it on the videos and let people know it was to help market the game and use in publicity shots?  Why lie and say it was two wooden doors that were laying around and a garage door opener? 
    Space door issue ? You're hilarious. The only "issue" was in DS's mind, yours as well it seems. He tried to pull this out of proportion, trying to make a "bad CR / CIG story" out of nowhere and guess what.. no one gave a rat's ass. Except you, 2 others on these boards and the goons.

    The fact that you had to necro this "issue" and use as your argument speaks volumes about your mindset.

    I've backed a dozen games and SC has by far the most transparent development process. Nothing else comes even close. Unless you can direct me to a KS project with weekly and monthly reports regarding development with every team leader describing in detail what his team is / was working on.

    Ponzi scheme, space door "issue".. these are the arguments you and other detractors have to show for.


    I guess if you feel that a company lying is not an issue then that speaks volumes about your mindset.  It just makes for a perfect example of the dishonestly I feel this company has promoted. 

    And dont put me in the category of the ponzi schemers.  Just because I have an issue that you dont agree with does not mean you can stereotype me into the fanatic hater category.  
    Excession
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

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