Star Citizen 3.0 - Refusing Refunds

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  • ExcessionExcession NottinghamMember RarePosts: 709
    edited October 11
    Erillion said:
    <>>>
    They are claiming that the requests are outside of the statutory refund period but according to UK and EU law the statutory period is 30 days, and that timeframe starts once the product has been delivered in a manner that it can be used by the customer. This applies to digital goods including in-game items.
    >>>>

    I am not a lawyer.

    My personal opinion: i am not sure if a crowdfunding pledge falls under the UK/EU law you mentioned above. If this counts as a sale of a digital good, to which this law applies.

    I suspect this is a grey area which has not been fully defined yet. Lawmakers seems to be unsure about crowdfunding projects and how to treat them legally (at least here in Austria). There is a lot of debate here in Austria, because a private person essentially had a banking business based on a crowdfunding idea ... with great success i might add ... until he was stopped by an injunction. 

    So may not be as clear cut as it sounds that a 30 day statutory period applies here.


    Have fun



    Crowdfunding is not considered as sale. If it was, it would've been taxed. You can't get one without the other. Taxing crowdfunding monies as sale would mean the end of crowdfunding. 
    According to Kickstarter it is considered taxable income.

    Crowdfunding on the RSI website is also classed as a transaction (sale/purchase) and taxable depending on which country you live in. 

    Post edited by Excession on
    Gdemami

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember EpicPosts: 1,345
    Excession said:
    Erillion said:
    <>>>
    They are claiming that the requests are outside of the statutory refund period but according to UK and EU law the statutory period is 30 days, and that timeframe starts once the product has been delivered in a manner that it can be used by the customer. This applies to digital goods including in-game items.
    >>>>

    I am not a lawyer.

    My personal opinion: i am not sure if a crowdfunding pledge falls under the UK/EU law you mentioned above. If this counts as a sale of a digital good, to which this law applies.

    I suspect this is a grey area which has not been fully defined yet. Lawmakers seems to be unsure about crowdfunding projects and how to treat them legally (at least here in Austria). There is a lot of debate here in Austria, because a private person essentially had a banking business based on a crowdfunding idea ... with great success i might add ... until he was stopped by an injunction. 

    So may not be as clear cut as it sounds that a 30 day statutory period applies here.


    Have fun



    Crowdfunding is not considered as sale. If it was, it would've been taxed. You can't get one without the other. Taxing crowdfunding monies as sale would mean the end of crowdfunding. 
    According to Kickstarter it is considered taxable income.

    Crowdfunding on the RSI website is also classed as a transaction (sale/purchase) and taxable depending on which country you live in. 

    Kickstarter is obligated to declare the funds as income. But the companies don't file the funds as income and the solution has been acceptable in all of the free world countries so far. 
    Gdemami
    Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?
  • drachennwolfdrachennwolf Waterloo, WIMember UncommonPosts: 23
    Thank God I refunded when I did. This game is both a) never going to release properly and b) never going to feature a fraction of what was promised. RSI is a total fucking scam, they're even feeding a sized media team with your backer dollars. 
    OdeezeeRhimeStaalBurgher
  • XarkoXarko Member RarePosts: 785
    edited October 11
    Wizardry said:
    I would like to know how much actual pve gameplay,the fanbois THINK they are going to get after all this waiting?25 hours....35 hours?
    Im certainly not a SC fanboi, but I imagine, for a fan, it should be pretty easy to sink at least couple hundered hours in a half-decent open world rpg.

    I wouldnt be as optimistc as..
    Erillion said:
    Around 10 years (like SWG) or 13 years (like EVE). Maybe more.
    Post edited by Xarko on
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,150
    Gdemami said:

    During the kickstarter it would count as a pledge, ie you are promising to pay $60 if they reach their funding goal but after the kickstarter it's not a pledge.
    You can count it as you want, does not make it so tho.

    Whether you are fundraising via 3rd party platform or direcently makes no difference, read TOS.

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos/20


    Why doesn't make it so?
    After kickstarter it is CIG who are making pledges not the customer. They are the ones saying "Give us $400 now and we promise to deliver the Carrack some time in the future."
    A customer cannot make a pledge if they are fulfilling their end of the bargain straight away.

    The TOS doesn't really mean much though, they can write whatever they want but if it attempts to break consumer law then it has no bearing. It's more of a scare tactic than anything. Obviously companies rely on people not being able to take them to court over such things.

    This x10 lol. I've said it before but the TOS is worth less then the virtual paper it's written on. No TOS can override someone's consumer protection laws so it's really all there to try and dissuade someone from trying to get their money back but CIG knows if anyone pushes back there isn't a whole lot they can do
    OdeezeeGdemami
  • RhimeRhime Kelowna, BCMember UncommonPosts: 255
    Always something to piss and moan about. Why would anyone want a refund now when the biggest and most important update of the game is almost in the public's hands? Crying about refunds after at least trying it makes more sense and frankly, would be a relief to see them go too...win/win for all of us!
    ExcessionOdeezeeFrodoFragins
  • strykr619strykr619 San Diego, CAMember UncommonPosts: 196
    edited October 11
    With the push of 3.0 to evocatis it appears CIG have taken the stance of denying people refunds, up until now they have been pretty decent with granting refunds to those not satisfied with the progress of the project, the direction of it or whatever.

    They are claiming that the requests are outside of the statutory refund period but according to UK and EU law the statutory period is 30 days, and that timeframe starts once the product has been delivered in a manner that it can be used by the customer. This applies to digital goods including in-game items.

    I'm curious what may have prompted this CS change when it clearly flouts what is required of them in the UK and EU (perhaps AUS as well).

    The actual response in question:

    Thank you for your patience with this request.

    As the activity on this account is outside of the statutory refund timeframe (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos Section VII, Fundraising & Pledges), it takes us time to look into its details. In addition to this, the whole team has been hard at work supporting the release of Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 to the Evocati Test Flight group with positive feedback.

    Since Thursday October 5th, we’ve released frequent follow-on version updates to 3.0 in the test environment. This fast turnaround and more frequent publishing schedule is made possible by our new Delta Patcher and a number of changes to our back-end server technology. These back-end systems are in full production now for the Alpha development phase, while the 3.0 game version itself will continue to be polished over the coming weeks. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)

    Since the beginning of the project, development of the Game has proceeded unabated and RSI is delivering content on a continuing basis. RSI has applied your pledges to the development cost of the Game, and in accordance with the Terms of Service, to which you expressly agreed, you are no longer entitled to a refund. These terms are consistent with the specific nature of crowdfunding. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos)

    We consider each request on a case by case basis and will work with you to find the best solution. Given the focus on the release of Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 right now, it will be a few weeks before we can give this request the detailed attention it requires.


    A very strange response in itself to be honest.

    I just did a charge back with my bank and when they contacted me to follow up on my claim i just pointed out the constant delays and push backs and they promptly charged back what i pledged. 
    Post edited by strykr619 on
    Odeezee
  • HeraseHerase LondonMember RarePosts: 922
    Why doesn't make it so?
    After kickstarter it is CIG who are making pledges not the customer. They are the ones saying "Give us $400 now and we promise to deliver the Carrack some time in the future."
    A customer cannot make a pledge if they are fulfilling their end of the bargain straight away.

    The TOS doesn't really mean much though, they can write whatever they want but if it attempts to break consumer law then it has no bearing. It's more of a scare tactic than anything. Obviously companies rely on people not being able to take them to court over such things.

    I think it does or they would be having legal battles left, right and center. It's been 5 or 6 years now.

    Steam says you have to play less than a few hours or can't return it, so i'm guessing there must be a min and max before it's considered illegal?  I don't know i'm not a law master lol
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy DublinMember EpicPosts: 2,597
    Herase said:
    Why doesn't make it so?
    After kickstarter it is CIG who are making pledges not the customer. They are the ones saying "Give us $400 now and we promise to deliver the Carrack some time in the future."
    A customer cannot make a pledge if they are fulfilling their end of the bargain straight away.

    The TOS doesn't really mean much though, they can write whatever they want but if it attempts to break consumer law then it has no bearing. It's more of a scare tactic than anything. Obviously companies rely on people not being able to take them to court over such things.

    I think it does or they would be having legal battles left, right and center. It's been 5 or 6 years now.

    Steam says you have to play less than a few hours or can't return it, so i'm guessing there must be a min and max before it's considered illegal?  I don't know i'm not a law master lol

    I'm not convinced, but it's clearly a convoluted situation.

    As you say, Steam allows refunds before X number of hours played but you are getting the product and you can make your decision based on what you receive. CIG appear to be refusing refunds despite not having delivered the product (to the people they are denying). That strikes me as really odd.

    OdeezeeGdemami
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 8,348
    >>>
    but you are getting the product and you can make your decision based on what you receive.
    >>>

    Or not.

    In case of the many "In development" or "Early Access" titles.

    Ask those who bought "Line of Defense" on Steam if they got ANY refunds at all ;-)



    Have fun


  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SMember UncommonPosts: 1,437
    Erillion said:
    >>>
    but you are getting the product and you can make your decision based on what you receive.
    >>>

    Or not.

    In case of the many "In development" or "Early Access" titles.

    Ask those who bought "Line of Defense" on Steam if they got ANY refunds at all ;-)



    Have fun


    I always find this funny, one wrong instance don't make the others right, plus serious derek smart is as trustworthy as the dude who is in the helm with this game
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • ExcessionExcession NottinghamMember RarePosts: 709
    DS is his own worst enemy tbh.

    He has made some (not many) decent points with regards to SC, but all the BS he spout's drown's those out.
    CrazKanukrpmcmurphyConstantineMerusAethaeryn

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy DublinMember EpicPosts: 2,597
    Erillion said:
    Or not.
    In case of the many "In development" or "Early Access" titles.

    Ask those who bought "Line of Defense" on Steam if they got ANY refunds at all ;-)

    Have fun

    What does "Or not" mean though? You download the game, it's shit, you get a refund. That applies for any 'in development' or 'early access' title.

    At least you can download those games and play them for up to 2 hours and then seek a refund if you're not happy.

    CIG are denying refunds even before they allow you to play 3.0 despite part of the reason for the denial being that 3.0 is in the hands of the evocatis and the team are hard at work on it yadda yadda.

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupMember RarePosts: 1,258
    Kyleran said:

    People keep treating this as if they've "bought" something which is clearly not the case.

    In the EU they take TAX on the payment: Ergo its a purchase not a donation. No real debate needed. They are under full EU customer protection.
    Turrican187Gdemami
  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 grenobleMember UncommonPosts: 357
    Erillion said:
    >>>
    but you are getting the product and you can make your decision based on what you receive.
    >>>

    Or not.

    In case of the many "In development" or "Early Access" titles.

    Ask those who bought "Line of Defense" on Steam if they got ANY refunds at all ;-)



    Have fun


    That's not really funny compared to the lolzstorm that is star citizen imho.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,539
    Gdemami said:

    During the kickstarter it would count as a pledge, ie you are promising to pay $60 if they reach their funding goal but after the kickstarter it's not a pledge.
    You can count it as you want, does not make it so tho.

    Whether you are fundraising via 3rd party platform or directly makes no difference, pay attention to TOS.

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos/20
    Consumer sales act is applied to companies when they sell goods to private citizens and the terms dictated by the consumer sales act can't be negotiated.
    Gdemami
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 8,348
    edited October 11
    hfztt said:
    Kyleran said:

    People keep treating this as if they've "bought" something which is clearly not the case.

    In the EU they take TAX on the payment: Ergo its a purchase not a donation. No real debate needed. They are under full EU customer protection.
    Lawyers seem to disagree that no debate is needed when it comes to crowdfunding.

    First it needs to be completely know what type of crowdfunding Star Citizen is
    https://www.sosense.org/5-crowdfunding-models-know/
    I guess there is not even a consensus on that.


    Have fun

    Post edited by Erillion on
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 8,348
    edited October 11
    Erillion said:
    Or not.
    In case of the many "In development" or "Early Access" titles.

    Ask those who bought "Line of Defense" on Steam if they got ANY refunds at all ;-)

    Have fun

    What does "Or not" mean though? You download the game, it's shit, you get a refund. That applies for any 'in development' or 'early access' title.

    At least you can download those games and play them for up to 2 hours and then seek a refund if you're not happy.

    CIG are denying refunds even before they allow you to play 3.0 despite part of the reason for the denial being that 3.0 is in the hands of the evocatis and the team are hard at work on it yadda yadda.


    If you get Star Citizen, play it for less than 2 hours and ask for a refund the next day (within CIG's 14 days timeframe) I am quite sure that you get a refund.

    According to the quote in the original post, the timeframe was more than 14 days (or 30 days).


    Have fun
    Post edited by Erillion on
  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 UKMember UncommonPosts: 343
    Here's a LINK and the copy of the post about how to get a refund for anyone in the UK (well one way anyway)

    I've helped several people on Reddit with this process, so I thought I'd formalise it into an advice post where people can publicly ask questions and see answers. It's more necessary now than ever since CIG has started stalling on refunds due to MVP 3.0.

    The arbitration clause of the Terms Of Service is only valid in the US, it's completely worthless under EU law. Anyone worldwide can sue CIG in the EU because they have a registered company in the EU (UK) - Foundry 42 Limited.

    Filing a Small Claims Court Claim in the EU is ridiculously cheap and easy, the process is 100% online and you can do it quicker than you can eat a bowl of cereal.

    The UK government has a website:

    https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim-online

    • It's designed to be done by a normal person without a lawyer. You just go there and fill out the automated forms with your details and how much refund you want.

    To calculate the amount you are claiming, in this order:

    1. You need to ask for a full refund

    2. Plus 8% interest for every year you waited

    3. Plus you should charge for your time communicating with CIG and organising this Small Claims Court Case (around £20 / hour)

    4. Plus you should charge for the Small Claims Court filing fee

    • Make sure you attach your emails, receipts and other communication with CIG in the supporting evidence section (just print to PDF emails, or print and scan, then attach).

    • Pay your £25 fee (or whatever) by credit card, make sure you fill out the details for Foundry 42 Limited as the defendant, and submit your claim.

    • I guarantee you'll hear back from CIG within 24 hours, and they'll offer you a full refund. It's massive hassle for businesses to get these kinds of legal claims against them because you can ask bailiffs to raid their offices in the UK, so they'll always respond quickly and just pay what you ask for. If they don't respond you automatically win and get the money either way.

    If you need any help with this process just PM me, I've done it several times now and helped other people on Reddit with it for various businesses as well.


    Take the time to file a complaint against Foundry 42 with Trading Standards. This is a UK government organisation managed on the local council level that has the power to shut down companies, remove directors, ban people from ever being directors in the EU again, and forcibly issue refunds by raiding bank accounts.

    https://ssl.datamotion.com/form.aspx?co=3438&frm=general&to=flare.fromforms

    https://www.gov.uk/find-local-trading-standards-office

    Trading standards don't move very fast, but you have absolutely nothing to lose by filing a complaint with them and it just ramps up the pressure on CIG even more, and moves to get your case resolved just that little bit faster.


    Finally file a complaint against CIG with the Better Business Bureau in the US, even if you don't live in the US. There's nothing legally binding about the BBB but all complaints are publicly visible on the BBB website and it's very embarrassing for CIG. Make sure you talk about your legal complaint there. It puts CIG's bad behaviour in the public record for journalists to see, and potentially saves other victims from giving them money. It also makes your case more urgent for them to resolve, as they can publicly reply to your complaint on the BBB for all to see.

    https://www.bbb.org/losangelessiliconvalley/business-reviews/internet-gaming/cloud-imperium-games-in-santa-monica-ca-1016845/reviews-and-complaints

    FrodoFraginsExcessionGdemami
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 8,348
    Shaigh said:
    Gdemami said:

    During the kickstarter it would count as a pledge, ie you are promising to pay $60 if they reach their funding goal but after the kickstarter it's not a pledge.
    You can count it as you want, does not make it so tho.

    Whether you are fundraising via 3rd party platform or directly makes no difference, pay attention to TOS.

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos/20
    Consumer sales act is applied to companies when they sell goods to private citizens and the terms dictated by the consumer sales act can't be negotiated.
    Yeah. But IS IT a sale ? Even THAT is not clear, as the discussion here shows.

    The sales act only applies to sales !


    Have fun
  • PieMonsterPieMonster Wheathampstead, HertsMember UncommonPosts: 27
    Erillion said:
    <>>>
    They are claiming that the requests are outside of the statutory refund period but according to UK and EU law the statutory period is 30 days, and that timeframe starts once the product has been delivered in a manner that it can be used by the customer. This applies to digital goods including in-game items.
    >>>>

    I am not a lawyer.

    My personal opinion: i am not sure if a crowdfunding pledge falls under the UK/EU law you mentioned above. If this counts as a sale of a digital good, to which this law applies.

    I suspect this is a grey area which has not been fully defined yet. Lawmakers seems to be unsure about crowdfunding projects and how to treat them legally (at least here in Austria). There is a lot of debate here in Austria, because a private person essentially had a banking business based on a crowdfunding idea ... with great success i might add ... until he was stopped by an injunction. 

    So may not be as clear cut as it sounds that a 30 day statutory period applies here.


    Have fun



    Crowdfunding is not considered as sale. If it was, it would've been taxed. You can't get one without the other. Taxing crowdfunding monies as sale would mean the end of crowdfunding. 
    Ive been taxed every time ive paid CIG in the UK at 20% VAT, as has every one else since the UK tax authorities enforced this on all digital purchases.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,512
    Personally, I dont understand how a company with as much money as CIG is "supposed" to have has an issue giving someone a refund.  It does not say in the OP but how much money this person put in?  A whopping $45?  Maybe $125?  Are they really getting hit with so many requests for refunds that they need to shut that facet off?


    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • PieMonsterPieMonster Wheathampstead, HertsMember UncommonPosts: 27
    Rhime said:
    Always something to piss and moan about. Why would anyone want a refund now when the biggest and most important update of the game is almost in the public's hands? Crying about refunds after at least trying it makes more sense and frankly, would be a relief to see them go too...win/win for all of us!
    I didnt piss and moan. But after Gamescom i refunded both my accounts totalling $3,300. Had them for 4+ years. Figured that after losing faith due to the lack of evidenced progress at Gamescom, if the game does get there, Ill just buy back in later.

    Not everyone who refunds is a hater.
    ErillionVorpalChicken28
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 8,348
    Talonsin said:
    Personally, I dont understand how a company with as much money as CIG is "supposed" to have has an issue giving someone a refund.  It does not say in the OP but how much money this person put in?  A whopping $45?  Maybe $125?  Are they really getting hit with so many requests for refunds that they need to shut that facet off?


    Personally I think that CIG is playing the waiting game. CIG maybe expects some people to withdraw their refund request once these people were able to play Alpha 3.0 themselves.


    Have fun
  • PieMonsterPieMonster Wheathampstead, HertsMember UncommonPosts: 27
    With the push of 3.0 to evocatis it appears CIG have taken the stance of denying people refunds, up until now they have been pretty decent with granting refunds to those not satisfied with the progress of the project, the direction of it or whatever.

    They are claiming that the requests are outside of the statutory refund period but according to UK and EU law the statutory period is 30 days, and that timeframe starts once the product has been delivered in a manner that it can be used by the customer. This applies to digital goods including in-game items.

    I'm curious what may have prompted this CS change when it clearly flouts what is required of them in the UK and EU (perhaps AUS as well).

    The actual response in question:

    Thank you for your patience with this request.

    As the activity on this account is outside of the statutory refund timeframe (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos Section VII, Fundraising & Pledges), it takes us time to look into its details. In addition to this, the whole team has been hard at work supporting the release of Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 to the Evocati Test Flight group with positive feedback.

    Since Thursday October 5th, we’ve released frequent follow-on version updates to 3.0 in the test environment. This fast turnaround and more frequent publishing schedule is made possible by our new Delta Patcher and a number of changes to our back-end server technology. These back-end systems are in full production now for the Alpha development phase, while the 3.0 game version itself will continue to be polished over the coming weeks. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)

    Since the beginning of the project, development of the Game has proceeded unabated and RSI is delivering content on a continuing basis. RSI has applied your pledges to the development cost of the Game, and in accordance with the Terms of Service, to which you expressly agreed, you are no longer entitled to a refund. These terms are consistent with the specific nature of crowdfunding. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos)

    We consider each request on a case by case basis and will work with you to find the best solution. Given the focus on the release of Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 right now, it will be a few weeks before we can give this request the detailed attention it requires.


    A very strange response in itself to be honest.

    well... they were pretty decent on my recent refund, only 2 weeks or so ago requested after Gamescom.. $3,300 returned through paypal and credit card with no difficulty.. just one email. Maybe this is a specific case, or maybe there were many refunds after Gamescom and the 3.0 release is a way of stopping it going any further. Who knows.
    rpmcmurphy
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