Tedium and whether it can be totally separate from what is considered difficult

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  • deniterdeniter KouvolaMember UncommonPosts: 1,111
    deniter said:
    Isn't it obvious that wrong kind of people play these games today? People who used to play the old ad&d games like Curse of the Azure Bonds and Pool of Radiance, then the Ultima series and later Eye of Beholders, Baldur's Gates, and Icewind Dales were the original target for first MMO games up until EQ.
    And interestingly, table top AD&D has never been about grinding... neither was any of the Ultima games or other games you listed, while those early MMOs, specially EQ, were all about repetitive grinding.
    That's true, and there's always room for improvement.

    But those games required patience, and especially in those older P&P RPGs it took months if not years to level up even close to max level depending how often you played. And one session usually took several hours, they weren't these 'pick up & play' -games like they are now.

    My point is people who played those games had usually a different mind set than the 'shoot'em up & beat'em up' gamers. Trying to mix them together wouldn't have worked then, and won't work today.
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 1,626
    Me personally, I want to be doing interesting quests or crafting all the time.  If I'm doing something that isn't these, it's probably tedious.  If I'm doing these it's not tedious unless the game has bad content.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,435
    deniter said:
    deniter said:
    Isn't it obvious that wrong kind of people play these games today? People who used to play the old ad&d games like Curse of the Azure Bonds and Pool of Radiance, then the Ultima series and later Eye of Beholders, Baldur's Gates, and Icewind Dales were the original target for first MMO games up until EQ.
    And interestingly, table top AD&D has never been about grinding... neither was any of the Ultima games or other games you listed, while those early MMOs, specially EQ, were all about repetitive grinding.
    That's true, and there's always room for improvement.

    But those games required patience, and especially in those older P&P RPGs it took months if not years to level up even close to max level depending how often you played. And one session usually took several hours, they weren't these 'pick up & play' -games like they are now.

    My point is people who played those games had usually a different mind set than the 'shoot'em up & beat'em up' gamers. Trying to mix them together wouldn't have worked then, and won't work today.

    The "wrong kind" of people are the bigger market so say hello to tiny/easymode MMO's.

    The elephant in the room that is missing from MMO's is the GM, without which you do not have scenarios or campaigns. You can at least now get some of the ease of communication with chat progs that tabletop has, but many roleplayers do not like to use them. Also GM's can focus on a small group, until we have AI's which can do this and run the MMO for a group, a guild and all players it will always be an issue.

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  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,789
    The Project 1999 is drawing more than a thousand players logged in during the weekends which is about how many the WoW PvE server Elysium draws. So that is pretty impressive for an old game like Everquest with its much poorer graphics in comparison to WoW.

    It's a whole different ballgame the way people behave on these old servers. They are polite, respectful, helpful and wonderfully inclusive , well at low levels anyway. Not too sure how the camping scene is as I level higher. I may change my mind in disgust there is always that possibility.

    There were people just standing about and casting their buffs on new players. When I got to a higher level I did that too, well my pitiful level 15 buffs but I wanted to contribute to this wonderful atmosphere too. That's the thing you want to be there for others. When someone asks for help I reach out and help. In other games over the years after the way you get trolled by people in general chat you even hesitate top ask a  question.

    It is not just about the game it is also about the whole experience how the fact that everything takes so much more time people are mindful and help others out. I have played so many games since that day in April of 1999 that I first logged into Surefall glade as a blind human druid who got lost trying to get out to Qeynos hills for more than an hour. In my journey through these other games I have become so savvy and a little jaded  that playing on Project 1999 now is nothing like that weak wizard I ended levelling to 60 with an epic in the original game.

    While tedium and aspects that take very long can be very polarizing in its execution I feel at present there is very little engagement between players that isn't forced. In older games the whole atmosphere is different because of how the game sets up the board making sure each player realises their limitations and the need for help. This engenders a very different playing experience as a whole.

    I am not saying there aren't better ways to do this than the formula Everquest used . I am just pointing out the very effective way Everquest did. I am aware that gamers these days do not have the patience for waiting even at low levels for anything. It is a difficult system to juggle for sure too much and you risk people leaving and too little and it ends up being trivial to meaningless. 
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  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,700
    edited October 11
    cheyane said:
    The Project 1999 is drawing more than a thousand players logged in during the weekends which is about how many the WoW PvE server Elysium draws. So that is pretty impressive for an old game like Everquest with its much poorer graphics in comparison to WoW.

    It's a whole different ballgame the way people behave on these old servers. They are polite, respectful, helpful and wonderfully inclusive , well at low levels anyway. Not too sure how the camping scene is as I level higher. I may change my mind in disgust there is always that possibility.

    There were people just standing about and casting their buffs on new players. When I got to a higher level I did that too, well my pitiful level 15 buffs but I wanted to contribute to this wonderful atmosphere too. That's the thing you want to be there for others. When someone asks for help I reach out and help. In other games over the years after the way you get trolled by people in general chat you even hesitate top ask a  question.

    It is not just about the game it is also about the whole experience how the fact that everything takes so much more time people are mindful and help others out. I have played so many games since that day in April of 1999 that I first logged into Surefall glade as a blind human druid who got lost trying to get out to Qeynos hills for more than an hour. In my journey through these other games I have become so savvy and a little jaded  that playing on Project 1999 now is nothing like that weak wizard I ended levelling to 60 with an epic in the original game.

    While tedium and aspects that take very long can be very polarizing in its execution I feel at present there is very little engagement between players that isn't forced. In older games the whole atmosphere is different because of how the game sets up the board making sure each player realises their limitations and the need for help. This engenders a very different playing experience as a whole.

    I am not saying there aren't better ways to do this than the formula Everquest used . I am just pointing out the very effective way Everquest did. I am aware that gamers these days do not have the patience for waiting even at low levels for anything. It is a difficult system to juggle for sure too much and you risk people leaving and too little and it ends up being trivial to meaningless. 


    Top guilds in EQ1999 are exactly like the rest of the games - they behave like petulent children and are greedy and toxic to the core.

    Pretty much the reason why I dont do any end game content in P99

    End game in P99 is 100% controlled by a few guilds - if you are not a part of them, you simply cannot do end game. The problem is the members of these guilds are pure cancer.

    Also the GMs are painfully aware of this and have done nothing for years


    https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/4fw6qw/lets_really_talk_about_high_end_raiding_on_p99/
    Post edited by DMKano on
  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,789
    edited October 11
    That's sad to know ,I suspected it might be. Well I'll stay away from that then and just enjoy the journey to 60. In its current form the journey will be interesting for sure and not lacking in challenges. The amount of experience I have lost is staggering but it has made me realise risks have no rewards unless the risks are worth taking.

    I will read that thank you @DMKano
    Post edited by cheyane on
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