Tell that to my character that had a 98% ISK efficiency rating on zKillboards after like a week or two of play.
Haven't gone on roams in a long time so it's gone down a bit (Meagre 96.8% now) but if you scroll through his history you can see that most the kills are me and a bunch of other newbs in thrashers that take like 24 hours training swarming up on people in big expensive rigs, and blowing their butt up.
The ability to do that kind of crap is 100% why EVE is the most successful PvP MMO. And if a well done game comes out with an even lower stat gap / barrier to entry it will probably replace it.
STrange the most succesfull and well thought of MMORPG PvP games were all Very Unbalanced .. UO, DAoC, AC/DArktide,Shadowbane, Warhammer, Darkfall, Vanilla Wow.... Balance works for FPS .. it does not translate to sucess in an MMORPG , quite the contrary and reason it fails is the pathetic screams for balance , You want Balance go play a MOBA or a FPS .. MMORPGs best success at PvP came unbalanced because it cultivated community and teamwork ..
Funny, most of those games were not that successful Yeah, Wow did incredible but the PvP servers were rather empty and they took Guildwars PvP to make it more popular. Calling games that closed down after a few years successful seems wrong to me, or like DF that never had even 100K players and that have been revamped several times.
UO was very successful at the time but it honestly only had 2 competitors: Meridian 59 and The realm. I don't know about the Realm but M59s early PvP was terrible (I heard iit got a lot better some years later though). Still, they did the trammel update in an attempt to keep the PvEers.
DaoCs PvP was good though, partly because they they balanced the 3 sides against eachother instead of individual players.
Strange that you didn't mention Lineage in there, it had more PvPers then all those games together including Wow.
One balanced PvP game that was incredible popular was Guildwars.
Anyways, if Wow only had open PvP on all servers it would never become nearly as popular and it still had faction based PvP, if it had only FFA PvP with full loot (and no PvE servers) the game would have become a fraction of what it became.
If you want massive amount of open world PvP players you can either release your game in South Korea like Lineage or you need need that balance. It doesn't have to be an exact balance but when a lousy playing vet beat a good playing noob you will do badly.
As I said, if you want a niche game there is nothing wrong with that and then you can do as you suggested but a FFA full loot PvP game will never be more then niche and any EQ/Wow based game that just adds faction based open world PvP will have few PvP servers, or empty ones.
Tell that to my character that had a 98% ISK efficiency rating on zKillboards after like a week or two of play.
over 80% of PvP in Eve is premeditated outright Murder , not a fight .. Most fights players engage in are fights they Know they can win and they run from everything else . If you find yourself in a 'fair fight' with equal numbers,
odds are very likely someone has made a horrible (or funny) mistake.
Tell that to my character that had a 98% ISK efficiency rating on zKillboards after like a week or two of play.
over 80% of PvP in Eve is premeditated outright Murder , not a fight .. Most fights players engage in are fights they Know they can win and they run from everything else . If you find yourself in a 'fair fight' with equal numbers,
odds are very likely someone has made a horrible (or funny) mistake.
Totally off subject. That has nothing to do stat based disparity. The fact I can get a 98% isk efficiency rating in a cheap rig that takes less than 24 hours to train and can be flown by Minmatar alpha clones does.
Tell that to my character that had a 98% ISK efficiency rating on zKillboards after like a week or two of play.
over 80% of PvP in Eve is premeditated outright Murder , not a fight .. Most fights players engage in are fights they Know they can win and they run from everything else . If you find yourself in a 'fair fight' with equal numbers,
odds are very likely someone has made a horrible (or funny) mistake.
Totally off subject. That has nothing to do stat based disparity. The fact I can get a 98% isk efficiency rating in a cheap rig that takes less than 24 hours to train and can be flown by Minmatar alpha clones does.
its not off Subject, the subject was balance here, not the stroking of your personal Epeen ..
And Eve is not balanced , as i pointed out ..Your personal experience is what is off subject and not indicative of Eves general PvP game play
Very few people in MMOs care about equal numbers vs. equal numbers (except as an excuse occasionally offered for losing before they go zerg someone else) and just because you throw that strawman up and pretend that's what they mean by balance doesn't mean they actually give half a crap about it.
What people are talking about 99% of the time when they are discussing how horribly imbalanced MMO PvP is, is how you can walk up to a newb on a veteran character and slap them around while they are powerless to resist. That is the imbalance people care about.
And that is the imbalance that EVE has clearly addressed when swarms of newbs in ships worth like 2 mil a pop are taking out multi-hundred million ISK ships flown by veteran characters. And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
Very few people in MMOs care about equal numbers vs. equal numbers (except as an excuse occasionally offered for losing before they go zerg someone else) and just because you throw that strawman up and pretend that's what they mean by balance doesn't mean they actually give half a crap about it.
What people are talking about 99% of the time when they are discussing how horribly imbalanced MMO PvP is, is how you can walk up to a newb on a veteran character and slap them around while they are powerless to resist. That is the imbalance people care about.
And that is the imbalance that EVE has clearly addressed when swarms of newbs in ships worth like 2 mil a pop are taking out multi-hundred million ISK ships flown by veteran characters. And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
Your example and others is not PvP , kickin Kittens is not PvP and smart kids know that ..
They also know you cant try to balance a PVP game around that kind of behavior , It results in making the real PvP a mess ..
And .. once again Eve is not balanced , so we have come full circle .. Back to my origianl point that you traveled so far to agree with ...
Find me a single other MMO where a handful of new players in crap gear can fairly easily take out a well geared vet. And then on top of that, the vet losses their gear. You may not think PvP should be balanced around it, but a hell of a lot of people do, and they did balance it better than any other game. Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
Find me a single other MMO where a handful of new players in crap gear can fairly easily take out a well geared vet. And then on top of that, the vet losses their gear. You may not think PvP should be balanced around it but they did balance it better than any other game. Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
talk about strawman , you are being ridiculous ,make up your mind .. is it Imbalanced or balanced or the most balanced ... wee its everything ..
Its not Balanced period .. Stop trying to color it grey ..
STrange the most succesfull and well thought of MMORPG PvP games were all Very Unbalanced .. UO, DAoC, AC/DArktide,Shadowbane, Warhammer, Darkfall, Vanilla Wow.... Balance works for FPS .. it does not translate to sucess in an MMORPG , quite the contrary and reason it fails is the pathetic screams for balance , You want Balance go play a MOBA or a FPS .. MMORPGs best success at PvP came unbalanced because it cultivated community and teamwork ..
Funny, most of those games were not that successful Yeah, Wow did incredible but the PvP servers were rather empty and they took Guildwars PvP to make it more popular. Calling games that closed down after a few years successful seems wrong to me, or like DF that never had even 100K players and that have been revamped several times.
UO was very successful at the time but it honestly only had 2 competitors: Meridian 59 and The realm. I don't know about the Realm but M59s early PvP was terrible (I heard iit got a lot better some years later though). Still, they did the trammel update in an attempt to keep the PvEers.
DaoCs PvP was good though, partly because they they balanced the 3 sides against eachother instead of individual players.
Strange that you didn't mention Lineage in there, it had more PvPers then all those games together including Wow.
One balanced PvP game that was incredible popular was Guildwars.
Anyways, if Wow only had open PvP on all servers it would never become nearly as popular and it still had faction based PvP, if it had only FFA PvP with full loot (and no PvE servers) the game would have become a fraction of what it became.
If you want massive amount of open world PvP players you can either release your game in South Korea like Lineage or you need need that balance. It doesn't have to be an exact balance but when a lousy playing vet beat a good playing noob you will do badly.
As I said, if you want a niche game there is nothing wrong with that and then you can do as you suggested but a FFA full loot PvP game will never be more then niche and any EQ/Wow based game that just adds faction based open world PvP will have few PvP servers, or empty ones.
And if it helps anyone , because you seem to be hung up on Successful , replace it with Popular and/or Endearing Umm again .. I said the most Succesful PvP MMOs .. and they were/are ..
Guildwars is not an MMO ...dismissed example ,,
ohh thx .. another i forgot about ,, but thx for the Help Lineage was and is not balanced either .. Umm again Guildwars is not an MMO , as even stated by the devs ... example dismissed twice
BS on your Wow projections , nothing was stopping its success at that time .. Nothing
The rest is insignifigant to the point that ..
The Most Succesful MMORPG PVP games are/were and with you rHelp ill add Lineage/UO/ACDarktide/War/Shadowbane /Darkfall /Vanilla Wow / ill Add AoC , and Eldurian reminder of Eve
None of these games have Balance ..
you know what has Balance GW2 and it fuggin blows because of it ...
Balance is not good for any MMORPG wanting PVP , Imbalance is needed to cultivate teamwork , community , rivalries and competeitve warfare ..
The example of a Vet picking on a Noob is Weak .. its Rarely happens these days and in Most every game its there are systems in place to prevent it.... So a really weak and worthless arguement
And if it helps anyone , because you seem to be hung up on Successful , replace it with Popular and/or Endearing Umm again .. I said the most Succesful PvP MMOs .. and they were/are ..
Guildwars is not an MMO ...dismissed example ,,
ohh thx .. another i forgot about ,, but thx for the Help Lineage was and is not balanced either .. Umm again Guildwars is not an MMO , as even stated by the devs ... example dismissed twice
BS on your Wow projections , nothing was stopping its success at that time .. Nothing
The rest is insignifigant to the point that ..
The Most Succesful MMORPG PVP games are/were and with you rHelp ill add Lineage/UO/ACDarktide/War/Shadowbane /Darkfall /Vanilla Wow / ill Add AoC , and Eldurian reminder of Eve
None of these games have Balance ..
you know what has Balance GW2 and it fuggin blows because of it ...
Balance is not good for any MMORPG wanting PVP , Imbalance is needed to cultivate teamwork , community , rivalries and competeitve warfare ..
The example of a Vet picking on a Noob is Weak .. its Rarely happens these days and in Most every game its there are systems in place to prevent it.... So a really weak and worthless arguement
What is the percentage of Wow players that play mainly PvP compared to the ones that mainly PvE? Not very large. Vanilla Wow and DaoC still had limited factioned PvP.
Lineage is the only game that successfully pulled off FFA PvP and it certainly had a very limited player loot. When I played it you dropped an item every 4 time or so when you were killed. Note that the game did poorly in the west while it still have a couple of million players in the east. Even Lineage have way more focus on pledgewars then FFA PvP though. I do have to admit that I personally liked the PvP in it when I played 16 years ago.
I can't give you an exact number of how many players that actually only PvE or PvP but the PvE number is many times larger which is funny since in most other genres that have more then 6 players PvP is at least 90% like FPS games.
And you miss the point of the example, it is not that the noob get killed but that the fight isn't exciting. Whenever a fight is predetermined it isn't fun for most people. As I said before, you don't need perfect balance, just enough to make the fights exciting and most MMOs fail terrible at it.
Yes, GW was a CORPG and the largest PvP in it was a few 16 Vs 16 maps but it was massively popular at the time. Still is rather popular around here.
WAR was never successful and got cancelled after a few years. Shadowbane? LOL, it spent most of it's time on life support. The only numbers I heard for Darkfall was 25K players but admit that was long ago. If it had more then 100K I think we would have heard though. AoCs PvP servers were always empty (played a bit on one). Darktide was nowhere near the regular AC popularity.
I give you DaoC, it was an excellent game but comparing how good it was with player numbers it should have done far better. UO I already mentioned.
As for Eve, it is a great game and Eldurian explained why itt is so popular as it is.
Do you actually think MMO PvP is anywhere PvE in popularity?
There is nothing wrong with being niche, heck, I enjoyed PvPing in some of those games myself but you can make MMO PvP as popular as PvE. In fact if the genre wants to start growing again that is what needs to be done but most MMO mechanics are made for PvE and in player numbers it makes PvE far better.
I can honestly not say why Mobas are so popular but FPS PvP is popular because it is fun and most FPS games focus on it. If you take the top 10 MMOs almost all of them focus on PvE, particularly the western ones.
The biggest problem with 'oldschool' games, is probably their graphics, game mechanics evolve over time, but unless the graphics are also 'updated' then its pointless, one of the oldest games out there, yet still able to utilise cutting edge graphics, is Eve Online as CCP is unafraid to update both game engine, graphics/artwork and indeed, they are not one to shie away from 'modernising' the game mechanics so that the game really has been evolving as technology etc. advanced, its something that too few MMO developers are willing to sink time and resources into, if only Blizzard was as willing to work on their game engine and graphics as they are with the game mechanics, you have to wonder how much better the game would be if they had been willing to do so, i can only imagine how much better a game WoW would be if it could stand on equal footing, at least in terms of graphics/artwork as MMO's such as BDO have, if only.
The biggest problem with 'oldschool' games, is probably their graphics, game mechanics evolve over time, but unless the graphics are also 'updated' then its pointless, one of the oldest games out there, yet still able to utilise cutting edge graphics, is Eve Online as CCP is unafraid to update both game engine, graphics/artwork and indeed, they are not one to shie away from 'modernising' the game mechanics so that the game really has been evolving as technology etc. advanced, its something that too few MMO developers are willing to sink time and resources into, if only Blizzard was as willing to work on their game engine and graphics as they are with the game mechanics, you have to wonder how much better the game would be if they had been willing to do so, i can only imagine how much better a game WoW would be if it could stand on equal footing, at least in terms of graphics/artwork as MMO's such as BDO have, if only.
People quitting a long time game due to graphics - that's a very small % of players - this is not a problem.
Graphics failing to attract new players - yep that happens, but original players leaving in droves because of old graphics - this is not an issue.
The #1 reason why people leave MMOs is - boredom - repetitive content, lack of content etc... Players are not loyal to the product like they were back in 1999-2004, the attititude of "well it's got problems but I am in this for the long haul" - that's very rare in majority of players today.
Majority bails the game at the very first bump they run into with the game - as jumping ship is easy - and there's 100s of other games welcoming you with open arms. So players just hop games like there's no tomorrow - as there's no longer a sub price to make you think "did I get my money's worth?"
I agree but with a twist,
People don't play or quit because of graphics, They may complain but not quit. They will say they wouldn't play a game because of graphics, but in the end they will if it's popular or like the mechanics.
Yes, the #1 reason why people leave mmos is because of boredom, repetitive, and lack of content. BUT mmos are now just "video games online".
And if it helps anyone , because you seem to be hung up on Successful , replace it with Popular and/or Endearing Umm again .. I said the most Succesful PvP MMOs .. and they were/are ..
Guildwars is not an MMO ...dismissed example ,,
ohh thx .. another i forgot about ,, but thx for the Help Lineage was and is not balanced either .. Umm again Guildwars is not an MMO , as even stated by the devs ... example dismissed twice
BS on your Wow projections , nothing was stopping its success at that time .. Nothing
The rest is insignifigant to the point that ..
The Most Succesful MMORPG PVP games are/were and with you rHelp ill add Lineage/UO/ACDarktide/War/Shadowbane /Darkfall /Vanilla Wow / ill Add AoC , and Eldurian reminder of Eve
None of these games have Balance ..
you know what has Balance GW2 and it fuggin blows because of it ...
Balance is not good for any MMORPG wanting PVP , Imbalance is needed to cultivate teamwork , community , rivalries and competeitve warfare ..
The example of a Vet picking on a Noob is Weak .. its Rarely happens these days and in Most every game its there are systems in place to prevent it.... So a really weak and worthless arguement
What is the percentage of Wow players that play mainly PvP compared to the ones that mainly PvE? Not very large. Vanilla Wow and DaoC still had limited factioned PvP.
Lineage is the only game that successfully pulled off FFA PvP and it certainly had a very limited player loot. When I played it you dropped an item every 4 time or so when you were killed. Note that the game did poorly in the west while it still have a couple of million players in the east. Even Lineage have way more focus on pledgewars then FFA PvP though. I do have to admit that I personally liked the PvP in it when I played 16 years ago.
I can't give you an exact number of how many players that actually only PvE or PvP but the PvE number is many times larger which is funny since in most other genres that have more then 6 players PvP is at least 90% like FPS games.
And you miss the point of the example, it is not that the noob get killed but that the fight isn't exciting. Whenever a fight is predetermined it isn't fun for most people. As I said before, you don't need perfect balance, just enough to make the fights exciting and most MMOs fail terrible at it.
Yes, GW was a CORPG and the largest PvP in it was a few 16 Vs 16 maps but it was massively popular at the time. Still is rather popular around here.
WAR was never successful and got cancelled after a few years. Shadowbane? LOL, it spent most of it's time on life support. The only numbers I heard for Darkfall was 25K players but admit that was long ago. If it had more then 100K I think we would have heard though. AoCs PvP servers were always empty (played a bit on one). Darktide was nowhere near the regular AC popularity.
I give you DaoC, it was an excellent game but comparing how good it was with player numbers it should have done far better. UO I already mentioned.
As for Eve, it is a great game and Eldurian explained why itt is so popular as it is.
Do you actually think MMO PvP is anywhere PvE in popularity?
There is nothing wrong with being niche, heck, I enjoyed PvPing in some of those games myself but you can make MMO PvP as popular as PvE. In fact if the genre wants to start growing again that is what needs to be done but most MMO mechanics are made for PvE and in player numbers it makes PvE far better.
I can honestly not say why Mobas are so popular but FPS PvP is popular because it is fun and most FPS games focus on it. If you take the top 10 MMOs almost all of them focus on PvE, particularly the western ones.
An entire wall of text to move the goal posts ..
Listen the point being discussed was balance in MMORPG PvP ..
Each and every one of those games was not Balanced yet are thought of as the best most well thought of PVP in the genre ..
DArktide was the most Popular AC server for many year s..
GW is not in this equation .. as its not an MMO ... its a coop/Multi player Arena based game .. Ask the Devs they will tell you ..
I played War to RR 93 and still play today , it was more fun RvR than DAoC imo .. Scenarios killed it ..
But again back on point .. Balance is waht makes PvP in this Genre terrible ..
And all your drivel does not change the fact that .. it was the Unbalance that made any of these examples Popular
Now give me an example of a Balanced PVP MMORPG that does it well .. Balance does not work in this genre..
Player numbers and Financial success is not waht is being discussed and what you seem to think I meant by success i tried to clear that up for you by replacing Success with Popular/Endearing... If you want to discuss Financial Sucess and player numbers we can in another thread , its not relevant to this point ...
Find me a single other MMO where a handful of new players in crap gear can fairly easily take out a well geared vet. And then on top of that, the vet losses their gear. You may not think PvP should be balanced around it but they did balance it better than any other game. Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
talk about strawman , you are being ridiculous ,make up your mind .. is it Imbalanced or balanced or the most balanced ... wee its everything ..
Its not Balanced period .. Stop trying to color it grey ..
I've been very consistent. Sorry if you are too thick to understand the plain statement I've made three times now and never deviated from at all.
Eve is not Balanced at all .. iTs like saying the Cleavland Browns are the best most balanced of the 0-5 teams in the NFL ..
You havent been consistent .. Sorry if you dont remember what you wrote here ..
"EVE is not balanced "
ANd again saying its the MOST balanced is a joke when you know its not Balanced .. MOBAS are balanced , FPS are Balanced .. Eve is in no way balanced .. its the Imbalance that makes/made any of these games popular for there PvP ...
This recent thread touches on it again .. read thru it and you can see peoples thoughts on the Most Popular/Endeared MMMORPG PvP we have had .. It reinforces my point and the list itself does ...As all the games are Imbalanced accept for Gw2
But the thing that all the others share is Imbalance and why they were liked as it cultivated teamwork and community ..
GW2 is a perfect example of Balance as solo players attach themselves to a TAg and form a BLOB and participate in a perfectly balanced Blob Ballet of who can dump out the most AOE and which Blob will step in it first ..
GW2 does not belong on the list imo and ITS balance is why Most Hardcore PvP guilds left Looong agao and why its attempts at E-Sport failed miserably .. Balance kills .. Its only popularity is the attraction to the casuals .. its WvW is a complete joke ....
Find me a single other MMO where a handful of new players in crap gear can fairly easily take out a well geared vet. And then on top of that, the vet losses their gear. You may not think PvP should be balanced around it but they did balance it better than any other game. Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
talk about strawman , you are being ridiculous ,make up your mind .. is it Imbalanced or balanced or the most balanced ... wee its everything ..
Its not Balanced period .. Stop trying to color it grey ..
I've been very consistent. Sorry if you are too thick to understand the plain statement I've made three times now and never deviated from at all.
Eve is not Balanced at all .. iTs like saying the Cleavland Browns are the best most balanced of the 0-5 teams in the NFL ..
You havent been consistent .. Sorry if you dont remember what you wrote here ..
"EVE is not balanced "
ANd again saying its the MOST balanced is a joke when you know its not Balanced .. MOBAS are balanced , FPS are Balanced .. Eve is in no way balanced .. its the Imbalance that makes/made any of these games popular for there PvP ...
Yeah I see this is a difficult concept for you so I'll help you out.
Illustration 1:
Illustration 2:
Illustration 3:
The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight.
These are not contradictory statements. These are statements anyone who has a proper graps of the English language should be able to figure out.
In WoW etc. if a character that is towards the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters, the day old characters will lose without question. WoW is the yarn. There is no balance whatsoever.
In Darkfall if a character toward the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters it will be simple for them to bunny-hop away and survive the fight, but they could potentially lose against greater numbers if they stood and fought. It would likely take dozens or hundreds but it's theoretically possible. Darkfall is the Boomerang.
In EVE some of the most expensive ships in the game can easily be taken down by a handful of day old characters in cheap ships. But they still have quite the advantage in a 1 on 1 basis. Eve is the slightly bent stick.
Eve is not balanced. Eve is the most balanced.
Sorry if you are finding this concept difficult to grasp because it really shouldn't be hard at all.
Find me a single other MMO where a handful of new players in crap gear can fairly easily take out a well geared vet. And then on top of that, the vet losses their gear. You may not think PvP should be balanced around it but they did balance it better than any other game. Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
talk about strawman , you are being ridiculous ,make up your mind .. is it Imbalanced or balanced or the most balanced ... wee its everything ..
Its not Balanced period .. Stop trying to color it grey ..
I've been very consistent. Sorry if you are too thick to understand the plain statement I've made three times now and never deviated from at all.
Eve is not Balanced at all .. iTs like saying the Cleavland Browns are the best most balanced of the 0-5 teams in the NFL ..
You havent been consistent .. Sorry if you dont remember what you wrote here ..
"EVE is not balanced "
ANd again saying its the MOST balanced is a joke when you know its not Balanced .. MOBAS are balanced , FPS are Balanced .. Eve is in no way balanced .. its the Imbalance that makes/made any of these games popular for there PvP ...
Yeah I see this is a difficult concept for you so I'll help you out.
Illustration 1:
Illustration 2:
Illustration 3:
The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight.
These are not contradictory statements. These are statements anyone who has a proper graps of the English language should be able to figure out.
In WoW etc. if a character that is towards the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters, the day old characters will lose without question. WoW is the yarn. There is no balance whatsoever.
In Darkfall if a character toward the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters it will be simple for them to bunny-hop away and survive the fight, but they could potentially lose against greater numbers if they stood and fought. It would likely take dozens or hundreds but it's theoretically possible. Darkfall is the Boomerang.
In EVE some of the most expensive ships in the game can easily be taken down by a handful of day old characters in cheap ships. But they still have quite the advantage in a 1 on 1 basis. Eve is the slightly bent stick.
Eve is not balanced. Eve is the most balanced.
Sorry if you are finding this concept difficult to grasp because it really shouldn't be hard at all.
Eve is not balanced , anyone who plays it knows that , all your walls and pictures trying to call it The Most balanced is weak , Your extreme examples only prove you are wrong as you can only attempt to make a point by reaching for the Extreme .. All the MMORPGs listed are unbalanced PvP ...
Your completly loosely interpatated .. Its the most Balanced falls flat on its face over and over .. And your constant passive/aggresive attempts at insult are immature and further shows you have no point to make ...
All those MMORPG games once again are not balanced PvP , and all of them are thought of the most endearing and memorable experiencesd that the community has had for PvP in the genre
No the point is I'm explaining concepts to you that an elementary schooler should be able to grasp, but you won't because you have a driving need to win this argument now matter how ridiculous you have to make yourself look in the process.
Pretty sure everyone here understands statements like:
Teal is not blue. Teal is the most blue when compared to red and yellow.
The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight when compared to the yarn and boomerang.
An average size man is not tall. The average man is the most tall when compared to a midget and a child.
EVE is not balanced. EVE is the most balanced when compared to other MMOs.
I don't think anyone here needs me to explain these Seasame Street level concepts to them but you. Nobody would say these are contradictory statements but you. Maybe they might disagree with my definition of balance, and therefore disagree my logic is sound, but only you would sit there and try to say my logic isn't valid. So obviously if you don't get it by now I'm wasting my time.
No the point is I'm explaining concepts to you that an elementary schooler should be able to grasp, but you won't because you have a driving need to win this argument now matter how ridiculous you have to make yourself look in the process.
Pretty sure everyone here understands statements like:
Teal is not blue. Teal is the most blue when compared to red and yellow.
The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight when compared to the yarn and boomerang.
An average size man is not tall. The average man is the most tall when compared to a midget and a child.
EVE is not balanced. EVE is the most balanced when compared to other MMOs.
I don't think anyone here needs me to explain these Seasame Street level concepts to them but you. Nobody would say this are contradictory statements but you. So obviously if you don't get it by now I'm wasting my time.
Your further attempts at passive/aggresive insults have been reported ..
Have a nice day
ohh .. and Eve is not Balanced PvP .... saying its the Most balanced does not make it balanced ..
its like having to go do some time , in Miniumum , Medium , Maximum , or High security prison ..
And saying well Mininmum is the Most Tolerable .. There all prisons and the PvP is not Balanced in any of them .. but in Minimum its the Most Balanced .. Just stupid semantics ..
The point isn't that it is balanced. The point is that it is the most balanced PvP MMO, and therefore the most popular PvP MMO.
Your point is all the most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good.
My point is that no PvP MMO is balanced, and no PvP MMO is as popular as either balanced PvP games (MOBAs, FPS etc.) or PvE games.
But the most popular PvP MMO is the most balanced.
Therefore the pattern established is that more balance means more popularity when it comes to PvP games, MMOs included.
It does not have to perfectly balanced to support my conclusion given that no MMO is.
____________
Your argument's flaw is that there is no basis of comparison. In order to say
"The most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good."
You have to have something to compare it to. If there were a single balanced PvP MMO which was not the most popular that would give some level of comparison to support your argument (Though in that case I would argue there is not enough data to support your conclusion.) If there were 25 balanced PvP MMOs and 25 unbalanced PvP MMOs and the unbalanced ones were overwhelmingly more popular then I would say you've offered strong data to support your conclusion.
But what your argument essentially is observing a tribe where every man is dirty but the most clean of them is the most popular among the women and saying "Women prefer dirty men because all the most popular men are dirty."
Where I would argue "Women prefer clean men because the most clean man is the most popular."
The point isn't that it is balanced. The point is that it is the most balanced PvP MMO, and therefore the most popular PvP MMO.
Your point is all the most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good.
My point is that no PvP MMO is balanced, and no PvP MMO is as popular as either balanced PvP games (MOBAs, FPS etc.) or PvE games.
But the most popular PvP MMO is the most balanced.
Therefore the pattern established is that more balance means more popularity when it comes to PvP games, MMOs included.
It does not have to perfectly balanced to support my conclusion given that no MMO is.
____________
Your argument's flaw is that there is no basis of comparison. In order to say
"The most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good."
You have to have something to compare it to. If there were a single balanced PvP MMO which was not the most popular that would give some level of comparison to support your argument (Though in that case I would argue there is not enough data to support your conclusion.) If there were 25 balanced PvP MMOs and 25 unbalanced PvP MMOs and the unbalanced ones were overwhelmingly more popular then I would say you've offered strong data to support your conclusion.
But what your argument essentially is observing a tribe where every man is dirty but the most clean of them is the most popular among the women and saying "Women prefer dirty men because all the most popular men are dirty."
Where I would argue "Women prefer clean men because the most clean man is the most popular."
more useless semantics .. its not balanced ... FPS and MOBAs are Balanced PvP Eve and all the other games listed are not ./..../end
more useless semantics .. its not balanced ... FPS and MOBAs are Balanced PvP Eve and all the other games listed are not ./..../end
You are missing the point here. It is not exact balanced needed, just enough low powergap to make all combat exciting.
My lvl 100 character fighting 50 lvl 1s with zero chance of losing to them is not exciting or fun for anyone. That is why "successful" games like Shadowbane failed.
Eve though is different, you don't want to fight 50 noobs in your fancy ship there unless you are prepared to loose it, which makes Eve way more fun.
See. This is why I insult you. I use logic to explain my arguments. And you sit there, stick your fingers in your ears and yell:
"NUH UH!" super loudly. Supporting it with the same old logic (or lack thereof) that I've already explained the shortcomings of. You don't even attempt to refute my logic or explain your reasoning on any kind of semi-intellectual level.
I treat you like a child because you act like one. Maybe if you engage in reasonable discussion and start trying to use critical thinking, like an adult, I can treat you as an adult.
More insults very good ..
your problem is you are Using Most balanced .. Its trivial in the scope of the game and the PVP encounters ...
Eve is built imbalanced and almost all encounters are imbalanced when they occur .. Like i said earlier in this thread .. When it weas attempeted to explain to you ..
"over 80% of PvP in Eve is premeditated outright Murder , not a fight ..
Most fights players engage in are fights they Know they can win and they
run from everything else . If you find yourself in a 'fair fight' with
equal numbers,
odds are very likely someone has made a horrible (or funny) mistake."
Its the Imbalance they look for and MOST encounters in Eve are Imabalanced and very intentionally developed the game world that way ..
This is intentional and the way the Devs want it , And the way that over 85% of PvP encounters play out in Eve.. The other 13% would be larger scale ..
Leaving this miniscule , trivial , extreme example that you use to make your point .. But it seems that all the threads you get involved devolve into meaningless semantics for you to make a point ..
That and your backhanded weak insults that are in every thread you get involved in ...
Drop the act you two. It is obvious you love each other. Get a room and we done with it. Or a baseball bat. Both equally romantic options.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Comments
The most balanced .. cmon man .weak
Haven't gone on roams in a long time so it's gone down a bit (Meagre 96.8% now) but if you scroll through his history you can see that most the kills are me and a bunch of other newbs in thrashers that take like 24 hours training swarming up on people in big expensive rigs, and blowing their butt up.
The ability to do that kind of crap is 100% why EVE is the most successful PvP MMO. And if a well done game comes out with an even lower stat gap / barrier to entry it will probably replace it.
UO was very successful at the time but it honestly only had 2 competitors: Meridian 59 and The realm. I don't know about the Realm but M59s early PvP was terrible (I heard iit got a lot better some years later though). Still, they did the trammel update in an attempt to keep the PvEers.
DaoCs PvP was good though, partly because they they balanced the 3 sides against eachother instead of individual players.
Strange that you didn't mention Lineage in there, it had more PvPers then all those games together including Wow.
One balanced PvP game that was incredible popular was Guildwars.
Anyways, if Wow only had open PvP on all servers it would never become nearly as popular and it still had faction based PvP, if it had only FFA PvP with full loot (and no PvE servers) the game would have become a fraction of what it became.
If you want massive amount of open world PvP players you can either release your game in South Korea like Lineage or you need need that balance. It doesn't have to be an exact balance but when a lousy playing vet beat a good playing noob you will do badly.
As I said, if you want a niche game there is nothing wrong with that and then you can do as you suggested but a FFA full loot PvP game will never be more then niche and any EQ/Wow based game that just adds faction based open world PvP will have few PvP servers, or empty ones.
And Eve is not balanced , as i pointed out ..Your personal experience is what is off subject and not indicative of Eves general PvP game play
What people are talking about 99% of the time when they are discussing how horribly imbalanced MMO PvP is, is how you can walk up to a newb on a veteran character and slap them around while they are powerless to resist. That is the imbalance people care about.
And that is the imbalance that EVE has clearly addressed when swarms of newbs in ships worth like 2 mil a pop are taking out multi-hundred million ISK ships flown by veteran characters. And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
They also know you cant try to balance a PVP game around that kind of behavior , It results in making the real PvP a mess ..
And .. once again Eve is not balanced , so we have come full circle ..
Back to my origianl point that you traveled so far to agree with ...
Eve is imbalanced ..
Thx ...
Its not Balanced period .. Stop trying to color it grey ..
And if it helps anyone , because you seem to be hung up on Successful , replace it with Popular and/or Endearing
Umm again .. I said the most Succesful PvP MMOs .. and they were/are ..
Guildwars is not an MMO ...dismissed example ,,
ohh thx .. another i forgot about ,, but thx for the Help Lineage was and is not balanced either ..
Umm again Guildwars is not an MMO , as even stated by the devs ... example dismissed twice
BS on your Wow projections , nothing was stopping its success at that time .. Nothing
The rest is insignifigant to the point that ..
The Most Succesful MMORPG PVP games are/were and with you rHelp ill add Lineage/UO/ACDarktide/War/Shadowbane /Darkfall /Vanilla Wow / ill Add AoC , and Eldurian reminder of Eve
None of these games have Balance ..
you know what has Balance GW2 and it fuggin blows because of it ...
Balance is not good for any MMORPG wanting PVP , Imbalance is needed to cultivate teamwork , community , rivalries and competeitve warfare ..
The example of a Vet picking on a Noob is Weak .. its Rarely happens these days and in Most every game its there are systems in place to prevent it.... So a really weak and worthless arguement
Lineage is the only game that successfully pulled off FFA PvP and it certainly had a very limited player loot. When I played it you dropped an item every 4 time or so when you were killed. Note that the game did poorly in the west while it still have a couple of million players in the east. Even Lineage have way more focus on pledgewars then FFA PvP though. I do have to admit that I personally liked the PvP in it when I played 16 years ago.
I can't give you an exact number of how many players that actually only PvE or PvP but the PvE number is many times larger which is funny since in most other genres that have more then 6 players PvP is at least 90% like FPS games.
And you miss the point of the example, it is not that the noob get killed but that the fight isn't exciting. Whenever a fight is predetermined it isn't fun for most people. As I said before, you don't need perfect balance, just enough to make the fights exciting and most MMOs fail terrible at it.
Yes, GW was a CORPG and the largest PvP in it was a few 16 Vs 16 maps but it was massively popular at the time. Still is rather popular around here.
WAR was never successful and got cancelled after a few years. Shadowbane? LOL, it spent most of it's time on life support. The only numbers I heard for Darkfall was 25K players but admit that was long ago. If it had more then 100K I think we would have heard though. AoCs PvP servers were always empty (played a bit on one). Darktide was nowhere near the regular AC popularity.
I give you DaoC, it was an excellent game but comparing how good it was with player numbers it should have done far better. UO I already mentioned.
As for Eve, it is a great game and Eldurian explained why itt is so popular as it is.
Do you actually think MMO PvP is anywhere PvE in popularity?
There is nothing wrong with being niche, heck, I enjoyed PvPing in some of those games myself but you can make MMO PvP as popular as PvE. In fact if the genre wants to start growing again that is what needs to be done but most MMO mechanics are made for PvE and in player numbers it makes PvE far better.
I can honestly not say why Mobas are so popular but FPS PvP is popular because it is fun and most FPS games focus on it. If you take the top 10 MMOs almost all of them focus on PvE, particularly the western ones.
I agree but with a twist,
People don't play or quit because of graphics, They may complain but not quit. They will say they wouldn't play a game because of graphics, but in the end they will if it's popular or like the mechanics.
Yes, the #1 reason why people leave mmos is because of boredom, repetitive, and lack of content. BUT mmos are now just "video games online".
And it's easy to get bored of JUST video games.
Listen the point being discussed was balance in MMORPG PvP ..
Each and every one of those games was not Balanced yet are thought of as the best most well thought of PVP in the genre ..
DArktide was the most Popular AC server for many year s..
GW is not in this equation .. as its not an MMO ... its a coop/Multi player Arena based game .. Ask the Devs they will tell you ..
I played War to RR 93 and still play today , it was more fun RvR than DAoC imo .. Scenarios killed it ..
But again back on point .. Balance is waht makes PvP in this Genre terrible ..
And all your drivel does not change the fact that .. it was the Unbalance that made any of these examples Popular
Now give me an example of a Balanced PVP MMORPG that does it well .. Balance does not work in this genre..
Player numbers and Financial success is not waht is being discussed and what you seem to think I meant by success i tried to clear that up for you by replacing Success with Popular/Endearing... If you want to discuss Financial Sucess and player numbers we can in another thread , its not relevant to this point ...
Eve is not Balanced at all .. iTs like saying the Cleavland Browns are the best most balanced of the 0-5 teams in the NFL ..
You havent been consistent .. Sorry if you dont remember what you wrote here ..
"EVE is not balanced "
ANd again saying its the MOST balanced is a joke when you know its not Balanced .. MOBAS are balanced , FPS are Balanced .. Eve is in no way balanced .. its the Imbalance that makes/made any of these games popular for there PvP ...
http://www.mmorpg.com/columns/the-10-best-pvp-mmos-of-all-time-1000012080/page/2
But the thing that all the others share is Imbalance and why they were liked as it cultivated teamwork and community ..
GW2 is a perfect example of Balance as solo players attach themselves to a TAg and form a BLOB and participate in a perfectly balanced Blob Ballet of who can dump out the most AOE and which Blob will step in it first ..
GW2 does not belong on the list imo and ITS balance is why Most Hardcore PvP guilds left Looong agao and why its attempts at E-Sport failed miserably .. Balance kills .. Its only popularity is the attraction to the casuals .. its WvW is a complete joke ....
Illustration 1:
Illustration 2:
Illustration 3:
The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight.
These are not contradictory statements. These are statements anyone who has a proper graps of the English language should be able to figure out.
In WoW etc. if a character that is towards the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters, the day old characters will lose without question. WoW is the yarn. There is no balance whatsoever.
In Darkfall if a character toward the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters it will be simple for them to bunny-hop away and survive the fight, but they could potentially lose against greater numbers if they stood and fought. It would likely take dozens or hundreds but it's theoretically possible. Darkfall is the Boomerang.
In EVE some of the most expensive ships in the game can easily be taken down by a handful of day old characters in cheap ships. But they still have quite the advantage in a 1 on 1 basis. Eve is the slightly bent stick.
Eve is not balanced. Eve is the most balanced.
Sorry if you are finding this concept difficult to grasp because it really shouldn't be hard at all.
listed are unbalanced PvP ...
Your completly loosely interpatated .. Its the most Balanced falls flat on its face over and over .. And your constant passive/aggresive attempts at insult are immature and further shows you have no point to make ...
All those MMORPG games once again are not balanced PvP , and all of them are thought of the most endearing and memorable experiencesd that the community has had for PvP in the genre
Now we can start some more weak appraoches as
Which is the Most endearing
Which is the Most memorable
See how silly that sounds
Pretty sure everyone here understands statements like:
Teal is not blue. Teal is the most blue when compared to red and yellow.
The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight when compared to the yarn and boomerang.
An average size man is not tall. The average man is the most tall when compared to a midget and a child.
EVE is not balanced. EVE is the most balanced when compared to other MMOs.
I don't think anyone here needs me to explain these Seasame Street level concepts to them but you. Nobody would say these are contradictory statements but you. Maybe they might disagree with my definition of balance, and therefore disagree my logic is sound, but only you would sit there and try to say my logic isn't valid. So obviously if you don't get it by now I'm wasting my time.
Have a nice day
ohh .. and Eve is not Balanced PvP .... saying its the Most balanced does not make it balanced ..
its like having to go do some time , in Miniumum , Medium , Maximum , or High security prison ..
And saying well Mininmum is the Most Tolerable .. There all prisons and the PvP is not Balanced in any of them .. but in Minimum its the Most Balanced .. Just stupid semantics ..
Your point is all the most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good.
My point is that no PvP MMO is balanced, and no PvP MMO is as popular as either balanced PvP games (MOBAs, FPS etc.) or PvE games.
But the most popular PvP MMO is the most balanced.
Therefore the pattern established is that more balance means more popularity when it comes to PvP games, MMOs included.
It does not have to perfectly balanced to support my conclusion given that no MMO is.
____________
Your argument's flaw is that there is no basis of comparison. In order to say
"The most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good."
You have to have something to compare it to. If there were a single balanced PvP MMO which was not the most popular that would give some level of comparison to support your argument (Though in that case I would argue there is not enough data to support your conclusion.) If there were 25 balanced PvP MMOs and 25 unbalanced PvP MMOs and the unbalanced ones were overwhelmingly more popular then I would say you've offered strong data to support your conclusion.
But what your argument essentially is observing a tribe where every man is dirty but the most clean of them is the most popular among the women and saying "Women prefer dirty men because all the most popular men are dirty."
Where I would argue "Women prefer clean men because the most clean man is the most popular."
My lvl 100 character fighting 50 lvl 1s with zero chance of losing to them is not exciting or fun for anyone. That is why "successful" games like Shadowbane failed.
Eve though is different, you don't want to fight 50 noobs in your fancy ship there unless you are prepared to loose it, which makes Eve way more fun.
your problem is you are Using Most balanced .. Its trivial in the scope of the game and the PVP encounters ...
Eve is built imbalanced and almost all encounters are imbalanced when they occur .. Like i said earlier in this thread .. When it weas attempeted to explain to you ..
"over 80% of PvP in Eve is premeditated outright Murder , not a fight .. Most fights players engage in are fights they Know they can win and they run from everything else . If you find yourself in a 'fair fight' with equal numbers, odds are very likely someone has made a horrible (or funny) mistake."
Its the Imbalance they look for and MOST encounters in Eve are Imabalanced and very intentionally developed the game world that way ..
This is intentional and the way the Devs want it , And the way that over 85% of PvP encounters play out in Eve.. The other 13% would be larger scale ..
Leaving this miniscule , trivial , extreme example that you use to make your point .. But it seems that all the threads you get involved devolve into meaningless semantics for you to make a point ..
That and your backhanded weak insults that are in every thread you get involved in ...