Old school design flaws... are they real problems !

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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,543
    Loke666 said:
    For instance are there no good dungeon focused game anymore, all dungeons that matters get put in the endgame and there is actually a rather large potential playerbase for that. Just copying EQ for that wont cut it, make something new.
    Elder Scrolls Online wants a word with you about that...
    TorvalMendel
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  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,111
    Loke666 said:
    For instance are there no good dungeon focused game anymore, all dungeons that matters get put in the endgame and there is actually a rather large potential playerbase for that. Just copying EQ for that wont cut it, make something new.
    Elder Scrolls Online wants a word with you about that...

    I understand what Loke666 is trying to say. 
    After all, every very modern mmo still seems to hang on to dungeons as a feature (well, most).

    However since modern mmos are so cheaply made and solo centric they do it reluctantly only to give players the most basic way of grouping, and it shows by being half hour speed run dungeons using quick LFD features with auto-strangers.

    Unfortunately, Elder Scrolls Online is a good example of "real bad technology".
    - Mega server
    - Broken replica of dungeons where people don't see each other (did they fix this garbage yet?)
    - Half hour speed runs
    - No name tag above player, this sure makes it immersive :) 



    I can only assume Loke666 is talking about good solid friendship where everyone is in a bad situation together, trying to survive as a group of fellow adventurers.

    Steelhelm
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,990
    I don't like the dungeon idea at all but i can accept it IF they are done well enough.

    Dungeons are also typically small narrow passages forcing you to waste time killing stuff you don't want to kill.It is the devs lazy way of forcing longevity from a meaningless strip of cave passages.

    Mobs should be there for a reason,like why are they even there,what do they eat,which is why an eco system should exist.Boss mobs should not have  drop loot,then there is no need for instancing.They should be tied to the quest lines,not  as rinse/repeat loot grinding placeholders.

    Devs need to lose the cheap one directional game design and start creating realistic worlds,mobs killing mobs as part of an  eco system.Fire doesn't work in the rain or less effective,flooding,winds ruining your accuracy of  arrows etc etc.Let me see some real rpg game creation elements instead of end game loot grinding dungeons.
    Steelhelm

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,543


    Unfortunately, Elder Scrolls Online is a good example of "real bad technology".
    - Mega server
    - Broken replica of dungeons where people don't see each other (did they fix this garbage yet?)
    - Half hour speed runs
    - No name tag above player, this sure makes it immersive :)
    - Mega server doesn't affect dungeons in any way.
    - I haven't seen a single broken dungeon yet.
    - I was never forced to do any "speed" runs.
    - No name tag? Have you even played ESO?

    More nonsensical opinions and wrong information presented as facts.
    Phrywaynejr2
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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,174
    Wizardry said:
    I don't like the dungeon idea at all but i can accept it IF they are done well enough.

    Dungeons are also typically small narrow passages forcing you to waste time killing stuff you don't want to kill.It is the devs lazy way of forcing longevity from a meaningless strip of cave passages.

    Mobs should be there for a reason,like why are they even there,what do they eat,which is why an eco system should exist.Boss mobs should not have  drop loot,then there is no need for instancing.They should be tied to the quest lines,not  as rinse/repeat loot grinding placeholders.

    Devs need to lose the cheap one directional game design and start creating realistic worlds,mobs killing mobs as part of an  eco system.Fire doesn't work in the rain or less effective,flooding,winds ruining your accuracy of  arrows etc etc.Let me see some real rpg game creation elements instead of end game loot grinding dungeons.
    I don't think any game developer wants to invest the amount of time and money it would take to make such an MMO. I agree with you that a focus on dungeon raids as endgame content is overused far too often in MMOs. Which is why I enjoyed ArcheAge and BDO a lot more than most other recent MMOs. Their worlds offered a multitude of activities to choose from to occupy your time. I'm not saying everyone enjoys farming, trading, fishing, crafting, horse training, treasure hunting or gathering, BUT having that amount of features DOES make a game seem more interesting and believable.

    However, things such as your eco system or the social AI I've been talking about for years, would probably end up having an astronomical cost. I believe a truly living, breathing sandbox world with a working eco system and socialistic AI for both NPC and mobs would be the only way to top WoW numbers. Unfortunately, I think game developers are content with feeding off the scraps for a quick and cheap investment turnaround.

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHMember RarePosts: 1,705
    The problem is with our Culture today.   People are always looking for the new, cheap way to have some fast fun for a few weeks then move on.   Now I have not been on this site in over 6+ months because I been going through a major life change.   A Divorce and I am trying to get more active as well as healthier.  Ever since April I have lost 37 lbs.   Now what does that have to do with this discussion.   I have met several people around my age and even in their twenties who tried to work out an lose weight in this time frame.   The common complain is they only lost a pound or 2 in a month of casually going to the gym and bitched how hard it was to lose weight as well as how expensive the gym is.   

    Truth is the Gym while yes $70 a month is not the problem.  Its the culture of today's people that want fast easy fixes to things that have no fast easy fix.   Losing 37 lbs was not easy, it took work; I had to change my eating habit and I had to go to the gym when I wanted to sit around and be lazy.  These people are so use to getting participation trophies that when they encounter anything that takes real dedication and effort on their parts to succeed at they feel its too hard and things need to change to suit their mentality.   This pertains to not only MMORPGs but to today's game design philosophies because the developers see this in the culture and the developers want to go for maximizing profit so they pander to this crowd.

    So what has happened to games in general.  We have no more games like Contra, or the First Final Fantasy which takes effort and time to learn how to play.  Or Games like UO, SWG, EQ, Vanilla WOW that requires for you to be responsible for your game play.  No we shifted design to the 15 a minute a week gamers to make them happy while leaving the people who love games and love the challenge to only have it in a sub section of the game.  This makes both groups extremely bored extremely quickly so they game Hop.  This is not good for games overall because as we seen since the late 2000s the overall quality of game play has gone down and fewer and fewer people are playing games.  So what is happening we turn games into Esports now to prop-up a problem.  This too will collapse as time goes on.


    As someone who has gone from playing Games 40 to 60 hours a month down to 10 hours a month at best to fill my life with more valuable and richer experiences I cannot complain anymore that the quality of games have become so cheapened because my life is better because of it.  I now fish several days a month.  I take my kids to the YMCA and have them active in sports.  I lost a lot of weight.   I am getting out of a Marriage were my wife does nothing but play WOW all day long.   


    With that said I do think MMORPGs in general needed a change between Generation 1 and 2.  But they didnt need to cheapen the game so much because people cried about lack of time.  The Truth is the game should be designed so that you are not rushing to end game to do End game for 20 months then start the cycle out with a new expansion.   This is really a problem.  Games need to be more about the Journey not the designation.  Tools like better Non Automated group finding tools, and more options to get the gear you want other than just dungeon grinding would be more than enough change so people who really don't want to make a MMORPG their life can balance between game play and real life.  Problem is when you create a treadmill like we have today it kills long term game play.  Yes I can be more accepting of a game that takes me 6 months or longer to level if the game is about the journey not about getting to end game just so I can Raid.  Raiding use to be fun, BUT it was also over kill.   You can replace raiding with small group dungeons to get resources for crafters to craft gear vs WOW style Tiered Raiding.   You can have very long and hard quest lines that also required Dungeons and grouping to get stuff done.  I am thinking like the Hunter bow and Priest Staff in Vanilla WOW.  You can do that without becoming a single player game

    Anyways I seen this post and I felt complied to post here even though I only look at the site now once a week.   I do hope Ashes changes the MMORPG paradigm.  I as a casual player will be just fine never running my own city.  I could just be a member in a guild and have fun doing my own thing a few hours a week vs lets get on the FFXIV treadmill for stones.   
      
    borghive49
  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIMember UncommonPosts: 4,410
    Rhoklaw said:
    Wizardry said:
    I don't like the dungeon idea at all but i can accept it IF they are done well enough.

    Dungeons are also typically small narrow passages forcing you to waste time killing stuff you don't want to kill.It is the devs lazy way of forcing longevity from a meaningless strip of cave passages.

    Mobs should be there for a reason,like why are they even there,what do they eat,which is why an eco system should exist.Boss mobs should not have  drop loot,then there is no need for instancing.They should be tied to the quest lines,not  as rinse/repeat loot grinding placeholders.

    Devs need to lose the cheap one directional game design and start creating realistic worlds,mobs killing mobs as part of an  eco system.Fire doesn't work in the rain or less effective,flooding,winds ruining your accuracy of  arrows etc etc.Let me see some real rpg game creation elements instead of end game loot grinding dungeons.
    I don't think any game developer wants to invest the amount of time and money it would take to make such an MMO. I agree with you that a focus on dungeon raids as endgame content is overused far too often in MMOs. Which is why I enjoyed ArcheAge and BDO a lot more than most other recent MMOs. Their worlds offered a multitude of activities to choose from to occupy your time. I'm not saying everyone enjoys farming, trading, fishing, crafting, horse training, treasure hunting or gathering, BUT having that amount of features DOES make a game seem more interesting and believable.

    However, things such as your eco system or the social AI I've been talking about for years, would probably end up having an astronomical cost. I believe a truly living, breathing sandbox world with a working eco system and socialistic AI for both NPC and mobs would be the only way to top WoW numbers. Unfortunately, I think game developers are content with feeding off the scraps for a quick and cheap investment turnaround.
    Ryzom has ecosystems.  I only had a short playthrough with it many many years ago, so my recollection is vague.  I clearly didn't like it enough to keep playing.   Not saying anybody is wrong or right; just that if they want ecosystems, they can try Ryzom.

    IMO, I think it's a mistake to just think that if someone just added X feature to the game, that it will be awesome.  I think it's more about figuring out what a player can and can't do by having that feature.  If an ecosystem just consists of species hunting/running from each other while the player goes through the map, I don't think that adds anything significant.  If, like GW2 you have social AI which does raids on towers or moves wagons back and forth as you repel bandits along its path, that too loses its luster.  It beats reading a wall of text, sure, but it just doesn't hold on its own for very long.

    These days, we're lucky enough that companies try to build MMO's at all, let alone building super-risky niche MMO's.  If I were looking for a "new old school game", I'd be latching onto the best bet I could find, smooching that company's butt, and doing whatever I could to help it launch.
    TorvalCogohi
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,451
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.


    Pretty sure those aren't flaws. Last time I checked, that's called "Playing the game as it's meant to be played".

    Don't like actually playing a game that requires you to actually do something? Then go find a game that caters to the special kind of snowflake that you are.

    That's what the "snowflakes" did though didn't they? They took their ball to studios and publishers that cater to what they think is fun.

    The real complaint here is that studios are making games for snowflakes and not self-styled mmo authorities. The salt in the wound is that snowflakes are having fun in their snowflake games and don't worry over what proper mmo gamers think.
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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,811
    Torval said:
    That's what the "snowflakes" did though didn't they? They took their ball to studios and publishers that cater to what they think is fun.

    The real complaint here is that studios are making games for snowflakes and not self-styled mmo authorities. The salt in the wound is that snowflakes are having fun in their snowflake games and don't worry over what proper mmo gamers think.
    While I ain't sure what Delets problem is, my problem is more that the games are too similar and all trying to sell to the exact same players.

    There should be far more room for more difference in the games, I don't ask for anything specific, just more variation and I think the genre would be more popular if the games would be less similar to eachother.

    I do feel that the discussion is more about "new stuff suck" Vs "old stuff sucks" then snowflakes Vs MMO know'it-alls though. 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,111
    Loke666 said:
    Torval said:
    That's what the "snowflakes" did though didn't they? They took their ball to studios and publishers that cater to what they think is fun.

    The real complaint here is that studios are making games for snowflakes and not self-styled mmo authorities. The salt in the wound is that snowflakes are having fun in their snowflake games and don't worry over what proper mmo gamers think.
    While I ain't sure what Delets problem is, my problem is more that the games are too similar and all trying to sell to the exact same players.

    There should be far more room for more difference in the games, I don't ask for anything specific, just more variation and I think the genre would be more popular if the games would be less similar to eachother.

    I do feel that the discussion is more about "new stuff suck" Vs "old stuff sucks" then snowflakes Vs MMO know'it-alls though. 

    I like the last line "new stuff suck" Vs "old stuff sucks". 

    It's like everything on the list should have been improved instead of changed into something unrecognizable. 


    It's like taking a FPS like Halo and giving him a sling shot that shoots jelly beans.  Then when he makes it to the first outpost, he has a cute little pink piggy riding game waiting for him.

    Now it would be ok if a game or two were made for the "snowflakes".  BUT EVERYONE, and not a single one left as an mmo.
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,990
    I am glad the word "improved" was used.
    I do not see a LOT has to change but improvement for certain,which is why i laugh when i see review scores over 8,all of these games have  massive room for improvement,they are NOT and never will be an 8.

    I also need to see/hear a good plausible reason for changing an idea and it needs to make plausible sense and not just because you didn't like that certain idea in another game.
    A perfect example is linear questing.I don't mind if there is a design section for players to run quests all the time,however i do not want to see ANY class xp associated with them.

    So yes that example is an example of what to "improve" in a certain design.Another would be those ugly yellow markers a lot of devs like to put over npc heads,is an immersion breaker,should not exist in games.Players should NEVER be vee lining for a yellow marker,we are suppose to be playing like we live in a world not like we are playing connect the dots with computer code.

    Mob Ai .."improved",aggro systems improved,maps improved,character customization..improved,it is endless,all of these games should be improved over the years,instead i am seeing massive worlds turned into Diablo/Baldur's gate type games.


    deniter

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,811
    Wizardry said:
    I am glad the word "improved" was used.
    I do not see a LOT has to change but improvement for certain,which is why i laugh when i see review scores over 8,all of these games have  massive room for improvement,they are NOT and never will be an 8.

    I also need to see/hear a good plausible reason for changing an idea and it needs to make plausible sense and not just because you didn't like that certain idea in another game.
    A perfect example is linear questing.I don't mind if there is a design section for players to run quests all the time,however i do not want to see ANY class xp associated with them.

    So yes that example is an example of what to "improve" in a certain design.Another would be those ugly yellow markers a lot of devs like to put over npc heads,is an immersion breaker,should not exist in games.Players should NEVER be vee lining for a yellow marker,we are suppose to be playing like we live in a world not like we are playing connect the dots with computer code.

    Mob Ai .."improved",aggro systems improved,maps improved,character customization..improved,it is endless,all of these games should be improved over the years,instead i am seeing massive worlds turned into Diablo/Baldur's gate type games.


    There have been some improvements for questing, there certainly are a lot of new elements in quests now compared to when I killed rats in a moat in M59. The problem is that they still use plenty of the old and tired quests and make the whole leveling part of the game just about running zillions of quests.

    Quests were originally a simple way to point you to certain content and to teach you new mechanics but Everquest kinda stopped that and made it one of the main gamemechanics. And the thing is that a large well written and challenging quest is fun. What isn't fun is grinding quests.

    Dynamic events is also an improvement on quests but just like quests there are good DEs and bad ones. DEs can be very fun if used the right way but rather frustrating if you use it like in GW2: HoT.

    But yes, some things have seen little or no improvement. The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
    Character customization is a mixed thing, your character looks a lot more unique but generally are your viable options far more limited today then in earlier games.

    Making something simpler and more streamlined can be an improvement but it can also be just dumbing down things for no good reason.

    A good MMO should be like chess, easy to learn but hard to master.
    Steelhelm
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,543
    Loke666 said:
    The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
    Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
    drivendawnPhry
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,783
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.
    Everyone stopped caring about anything except the speed at which they achieved that next level or got that next piece of gear. This is something that's been prevalent in MMOs as long as I've been playing them.

    As much as people dress it up nice and talk about "Hero's Journeys" on the forums you meet so many people in-game that make fun of people for being lower level, or having lower gearscore, and use the strength of their in-game character as a measure of their worth.

    Those people don't care about making friends, those people don't care about being immersed in a storyline, and those people don't care about exploring the world. So how did developers respond? They got rid of all those things because people didn't care about them.
    Steelhelm
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTMember RarePosts: 4,056
    Loke666 said:
    The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
    Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
    This is not entirely true.  Often the mobs would go in a strange path due to bad pathing and often they would bring friends with if there were a lot of mobs in the same area.  It was unintended, but depending on the game it was a necessity to be able to solo.  Fighting and defeating your enemy in a developer intended way is usually not that challenging in a solo encounter.  Some of the most enjoyable things about those old games were being able to find ways to do things like that were not intended.  Kiting would be one thing in EQ.  Paladin's and Druid's ability to outlast even elite mobs in Vanilla WoW was another.  I also recall being able to solo stealth dungeons in both EQ and WoW if the class was high enough above the intended level, had stealth, and was skilled.
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,811
    Loke666 said:
    The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
    Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
    Pathing is better yes, but the mobs are more predictable and you have less you need to focus on now then in EQ. Let's call it a draw.
  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,914
    Maurgrim said:
    I remember playing World of Warcraft for a year straight.  I knew everyone on the server. 

    So you knew over 2000 players?

    Yes, all of them between the hours of 6am-10pm EST.  Most of the night shift too when I or they played some OT hours :)
    How many of them did not take out a restraining order?

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,543
    Loke666 said:
    Loke666 said:
    The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
    Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
    Pathing is better yes, but the mobs are more predictable and you have less you need to focus on now then in EQ. Let's call it a draw.
    Well, instead of running straight to you, mobs nowadays (at least in WoW, GW2, BDO, ESO and LOTRO) will flee to get help, and you can quickly end with a lot more on you that you can deal with in difficult areas. And I'm talking right now, in those games, today.
    Happened to me in a public dungeon in ESO no later than today. One caster felt a bit too vulnerable under my arrow barrage, and he ran away around the corner and came back with 5 more of his friends.
    Sorry, I can't call it a draw compared to the utterly dumb mobs that ran only in a straight line to you in UO, AC1 and EQ1. Granted, they aren't genius level intelligences today, but it's still much, much better than it ever was.
    immodiumPhry
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    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,290
    edited October 10
    Loke666 said:
    Loke666 said:
    The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
    Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
    Pathing is better yes, but the mobs are more predictable and you have less you need to focus on now then in EQ. Let's call it a draw.
    Well, instead of running straight to you, mobs nowadays (at least in WoW, GW2, BDO, ESO and LOTRO) will flee to get help, and you can quickly end with a lot more on you that you can deal with in difficult areas. And I'm talking right now, in those games, today.
    Happened to me in a public dungeon in ESO no later than today. One caster felt a bit too vulnerable under my arrow barrage, and he ran away around the corner and came back with 5 more of his friends.
    Sorry, I can't call it a draw compared to the utterly dumb mobs that ran only in a straight line to you in UO, AC1 and EQ1. Granted, they aren't genius level intelligences today, but it's still much, much better than it ever was.
    .
    I never played the three titles you mentioned,  but in 2002 DAOC had mobs which did exactly as you describe, along with bringing friends (BAF) based on party size.

    It also had roaming mobs and aggro through walls and floors which could cause some unfortunate and inexplicable  wipes. 

    Often players would attribute the unpredictability to bugs,  perhaps so but the result was (and still is on the free shard) far more challenge and losses than is seen in most games today.

    In your archery example above, did the 5 adds wipe you? In DAOC they definitely would have especially as an archer,  only Necros , BoneDancers and Chanters really had any chance in that circumstance, everyone either fled to zone or entrance or until aggro dropped. 
    Post edited by Kyleran on

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

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  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,282
    Old mmos had many problems, and most of it can/could be solved without messing with their integrety. Some of those were adressed in newer mmos, but problem solving old mmos problem was not what really got us to where we are today.
    The player base grew from a few million mmo enthusiasts to a few hundred million gamers who brought in a somewhat different taste; of course mmos had to change. We still have those few million mmo geeks (not the same people, just the same taste) and no one makes mmos for them (I am deliberately disregarding upcomming indie projects untill I see the results). The rest of the player base are much higher in numbers so naturally a company want to target this segment for maximum profit, and that results in the mmos we get now..though this large player base is also fragmented and as different mmos move further out of traditional mmo genre, these players divide - That is why the wow numbers can not be replicated again even with a generic game as good as wow.

    I can't back this up, but from what I heard many people from the movie industry got jobs in the mmo industry, and with them came narrative and story driven mmos were the result. Whatever is the reason that story driven mmos came to be the standard way to make mmos, the story driven trend plays a huge role in old mmo problems not getting improved on..simply because those are not very relevant in story driven mmos.
  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALMember RarePosts: 1,984
    edited October 11
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:
    Loke666 said:
    The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
    Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
    Pathing is better yes, but the mobs are more predictable and you have less you need to focus on now then in EQ. Let's call it a draw.
    Well, instead of running straight to you, mobs nowadays (at least in WoW, GW2, BDO, ESO and LOTRO) will flee to get help, and you can quickly end with a lot more on you that you can deal with in difficult areas. And I'm talking right now, in those games, today.
    Happened to me in a public dungeon in ESO no later than today. One caster felt a bit too vulnerable under my arrow barrage, and he ran away around the corner and came back with 5 more of his friends.
    Sorry, I can't call it a draw compared to the utterly dumb mobs that ran only in a straight line to you in UO, AC1 and EQ1. Granted, they aren't genius level intelligences today, but it's still much, much better than it ever was.
    .
    I never played the three titles you mentioned,  but in 2002 DAOC had mobs which did exactly as you describe, along with bringing friends (BAF) based on party size.

    It also had roaming mobs and aggro through walls and floors which could cause some unfortunate and inexplicable  wipes. 

    Often players would attribute the unpredictability to bugs,  perhaps so but the result was (and still is on the free shard) far more challenge and losses than is seen in most games today.

    In your archery example above, did the 5 adds wipe you? In DAOC they definitely would have especially as an archer,  only Necros , BoneDancers and Chanters really had any chance in that circumstance, everyone either fled to zone or entrance or until aggro dropped. 
    Indeed, FFXI also had a cool aggro system where mobs would aggro based on many different things. Of course some did with sight and sound so as long as you snuck behind them or had a spell that silenced your movement things were fine. However there were others like smell, magic aggro, and blood aggro. You can guess the magic one however blood aggro (most undead had this) happened when your life was 25% or lower I believe and the undead would have a large aggro range for this. It made things interesting when you were running from mobs and night time hits and all these undead appear that were always at least 10 lvls higher than the normal mobs in the zone. :p  
    Post edited by drivendawn on
    Kyleran
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,111
    Starting with Scarlet Monastery, Vanilla WoW dungeons were extremely tactical. 

    Often players understood their roll in tank healer and dps, but very little on the tactical side of things, like bringing casters around the corner or into another room.  Moving slow and plotting out the next move is faster than rushing. 

    Being a game from 2004 it was amazing how mobs could suck a group into a bad experience.
    Steelhelm
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,990
    Dungeon....tactical?is it confusing navigating tight dungeon corridors wading through trash mobs to get to a boss?Does it even make sense,why is that Boss living at the end of a Dungeon?Forcing players into instances is not and never will be good game design,it is simply for rinse and repeat purposes,NOT for realistic game play or immersion,just for attaining loot.

    Simple tactics were learned by gamer's long before Wow arrived.Mostly it was because of bad game design/coding but still players had to adapt to for example drawing hate through walls and aggroing 20 mobs.Even games never mentioned around here offer tactics and difficult gameplay,it is not akin just to the few mentioned games inside of dungeons.

    Itf so happens there is the odd cave dweller boss for some unknown reason,so be it,but creating dungeon after dungeon instances just tells me how bad that developer is at designing a game and is looking for EASY ways to do it.A game should foremost be reinforcing the immersive and RP feel of a game,not reinforcing end game dungeon instance looting,this would imo be considered an old school game design FLAW.

    I want a game to look and feel like a real world would look.I would like to see developers reinforce the open game worlds and not dumb them down into single player game designs,then claim to be an online mmo.
    KyleranAmarantharSteelhelm

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,543
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:
    Loke666 said:
    The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
    Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
    Pathing is better yes, but the mobs are more predictable and you have less you need to focus on now then in EQ. Let's call it a draw.
    Well, instead of running straight to you, mobs nowadays (at least in WoW, GW2, BDO, ESO and LOTRO) will flee to get help, and you can quickly end with a lot more on you that you can deal with in difficult areas. And I'm talking right now, in those games, today.
    Happened to me in a public dungeon in ESO no later than today. One caster felt a bit too vulnerable under my arrow barrage, and he ran away around the corner and came back with 5 more of his friends.
    Sorry, I can't call it a draw compared to the utterly dumb mobs that ran only in a straight line to you in UO, AC1 and EQ1. Granted, they aren't genius level intelligences today, but it's still much, much better than it ever was.
    .
    I never played the three titles you mentioned,  but in 2002 DAOC had mobs which did exactly as you describe, along with bringing friends (BAF) based on party size.

    It also had roaming mobs and aggro through walls and floors which could cause some unfortunate and inexplicable  wipes. 

    Often players would attribute the unpredictability to bugs,  perhaps so but the result was (and still is on the free shard) far more challenge and losses than is seen in most games today.

    In your archery example above, did the 5 adds wipe you? In DAOC they definitely would have especially as an archer,  only Necros , BoneDancers and Chanters really had any chance in that circumstance, everyone either fled to zone or entrance or until aggro dropped. 
    DAoC was already the second generation of MMOs, and yeah, indeed pathing and mob "cooperation" was better. I also remember that it was very bugged at release.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,811
    Wizardry said:
    Dungeon....tactical?is it confusing navigating tight dungeon corridors wading through trash mobs to get to a boss?Does it even make sense,why is that Boss living at the end of a Dungeon?Forcing players into instances is not and never will be good game design,it is simply for rinse and repeat purposes,NOT for realistic game play or immersion,just for attaining loot.

    Simple tactics were learned by gamer's long before Wow arrived.Mostly it was because of bad game design/coding but still players had to adapt to for example drawing hate through walls and aggroing 20 mobs.Even games never mentioned around here offer tactics and difficult gameplay,it is not akin just to the few mentioned games inside of dungeons.

    Itf so happens there is the odd cave dweller boss for some unknown reason,so be it,but creating dungeon after dungeon instances just tells me how bad that developer is at designing a game and is looking for EASY ways to do it.A game should foremost be reinforcing the immersive and RP feel of a game,not reinforcing end game dungeon instance looting,this would imo be considered an old school game design FLAW.

    I want a game to look and feel like a real world would look.I would like to see developers reinforce the open game worlds and not dumb them down into single player game designs,then claim to be an online mmo.
    Well, the classical reason is probably based on ancient egyptian tombes. You buried your Farao with treasures and they did put in traps as well. If they could have put in undeads to guard it they would have with a nasty one in the final chamber.

     Another inspiration is probably the tunnel system of Cu Chi in Vietnam, it was in clear memory when D&D came out and it also had plenty of traps as well as guards,

    But early RPG dungeons did have a far higher focus on traps and less on mobs, the players had to spend a lot of time outwitting fiendish traps. That type of gameplay does not translate that good to MMOs and already had problems in D&D because those trap dungeons needs a certainly mentality from your players to be fun so we also got the classic orc and goblin cavern systems to clear for players who wanted more action.

    A well made massive dungeon is still fun in my book but the shorter ones just made to fight a hard boss after a bunch of trash mobs gets boring after a while.
    KyleranAmarantharConstantineMerus
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