Old school design flaws... are they real problems !

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  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,687
    edited October 7
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:


    I don't have as much time today as I had in 1996 but I can still live with a slower game that takes a year to reach max level if I play casually, I don't see why that is a problem as long as leveling is fun. People today only think of the endgame but as long as you have fun, does it matter if you ever reach it?
    As Manfred Mann sang, "But mama, that's where the fun is...."

    Or so many players have come to believe.

    For many players, the concept of playing (and paying) for the same game month after month is foreign, they just aren't going to do it so developers are encouraged to find a way to get as much money from them up front or as early as possible after joining, and the designs and monetization models often reflect this.




    Bingo. 

    The concept of how players habits changed over the years and the shift to shorter gameplay sessions and more game hopping cannot be overstated.




    I can't count how many people here on these forums such as you, Torval and others have said back in the day you would play one MMO at a time,  for a long period of time but no longer will do so today.

    I remain the purist, still only playing one game at a time (even with single player games now) but there are few like me these days, even here.

    I agree, I think the era of large numbers of players deciding large amounts of time to a single game are long past.  

    No doubt there is a niche that will still will but my guess is it won't be large.

    Heck, I don't think I fall into the long term player category and I might even even start playing "two" games at a time..whoo hoo

    Yep the days of people playing a single long session game (like MMORPGs) for years are long gone. 

    Example - Look at the most popular game on Steam - PlayerUnknown Battlegrounds it hit 1.8 million concurrent players- it's exactly how masses play games today - jump in, get into a match/world, play for 10-15min, rinse and repeat.

    Short playsessions are KEY to massive successes, being able to get to action quickly is key. It's not like players don't play PUBG for hours straight - they do - but it's still a bunch of short games in a row.

    Old school persistent world MMORPGs - like EQ1 and what Pantheon's doing - are the antithesis of how players play today, stuff like taking 20-30min just to GET to the spot where you are going to hunt for XP - yeah the vast majority simply has no patience for that.

    Don't get me wrong - as an old school player - I have no issues with EQ1 vanilla or Pantheon slow paced long session gameplay, but I am in the extreme minority - your average player today has no tolerance for this.
     
    Post edited by DMKano on
    GdemamiExcessionMrMelGibsonRobsolf
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTMember RarePosts: 4,056
    Weather or not you like killing 1000 rats in a moat or not is a matter of perspective.  Most old games started your hero as a pauper and I personally liked it that way.  It made you feel like you had a real progression and had to earn it.  I don't really like starting as a hero.  I'd rather start as just the average joe who working their way up in the world performing menial tasks.  I think some people overlook the fact that in real life lots of things can be learned about more complex tasks by first performing more simple tasks well.

    Part of my enjoyment of old games vs new ones is that they were flawed.  It allowed you to work around the issues yourself instead of everything being very static and uncompromising.  It is often like that in different technologies.  The most experimental time periods are the most exciting and fun.  Once things become streamlined and polished they kind of lose that thrill.  They are just another product being produced that works well, but isn't as interesting.  For example imagine when chemists were first discovering the elements and creating their own tools.  That is kind of what early MMOs and video games were like.
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,267
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    I remember playing World of Warcraft for a year straight.  I knew everyone on the server. 

    So you knew over 2000 players?

    Yes, all of them between the hours of 6am-10pm EST.  Most of the night shift too when I or they played some OT hours :)
    6 am and 10 pm? Are you retired or something? 

    Well, only kidding about knowing all 2000, but I always did keep a good 30 people on friends, and knew at least 100. 

    Back then I worked 4 days on and 4 days off, add that I had all day endurance to play.  Don't know what happened. now only about two hours is good for me.

    I'm getting married tomorrow afternoon, so maybe even less !

    Maybe less?

    Lulz...

    Congratz though....Feb will be 35 years for me.

    (Was I ever not married? )  
    blueturtle13RobsolfCogohi

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,364
    I remember playing World of Warcraft for a year straight.  I knew everyone on the server. 

    I remember this girl that was always on.  She had a dynamic personality and very social, never ventured from the city unless it was a major exciting group event. but she never seemed to level up....... You know what ?....... She was having fun her own way..... I miss her ! 

    TRY THIS ON A MEGA SERVER :)
    We had a couple of players like that in EQ also....They would just sit in PoK and chat with everyone...Never leveled but everyone knew them.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,364
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:


    I don't have as much time today as I had in 1996 but I can still live with a slower game that takes a year to reach max level if I play casually, I don't see why that is a problem as long as leveling is fun. People today only think of the endgame but as long as you have fun, does it matter if you ever reach it?
    As Manfred Mann sang, "But mama, that's where the fun is...."

    Or so many players have come to believe.

    For many players, the concept of playing (and paying) for the same game month after month is foreign, they just aren't going to do it so developers are encouraged to find a way to get as much money from them up front or as early as possible after joining, and the designs and monetization models often reflect this.


    I really started noticing this when single player games started to take alot less time to complete....I knew several people that would buy a single player game, play it all weekend until they beat it, then never touch it again...I think it disciplined their minds to where games are short term and not long term.
    Gdemami
  • btdtbtdt Member UncommonPosts: 98
    Hariken said:
    Back in 99/2000 mmo's were just played be a different crowd because it was this new genre and you could only play on a computer. The genre had a small foot print in gaming back then. To me that was the best time for mmo gaming.  It was all pc geeks that knew stuff about tech. You have to remember back then not everyone was on the internet yet. It was all new. By time Wow hit things had changed. Wow became this massive money maker and game companies lost their minds trying to do what Blizzard did. That's when it all went down hill. Yes those older mmo's had grind but it was different and the focus wasn't getting to max lvl like it is today. Todays mmo's just have to much gimmicky junk in them. The worse to me being stuff you would find in a console game.
    LOL, clearly you had no idea who was playing these games with you because there were about as many, if not more, stay at home mom's playing these games as the so-called computer geeks.  For many, it was just another form of a daytime soap opera to pass the hours away.

    People just prefer to spend the preponderance of their time on their cell phones these days.

    On a side note... I think the OP either gets paid by MMORPG to make these inane posts or he lives in his Mom's basement and is 42 years old.
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,801
    Wizardry said:
    There is really only two ways to make the game,so there is no real old school versus new school.

    Instead what i am seeing is developers that don't want to spend the money or time or effort to make a really good rpg with mmo elements,instead try to change the actual genre into something that is both not a mmo nor a rpg.

    The reason people look at vanilla Wow is because they are thinking back BEFORE it's true face "end game" showed it's ugly face.However  when i look back it maybe had lot's of rpg elements but it was a poor MMO,as it was predominantly meant to solo all the time.Wow failed at the core basic delivery of a RPG game,no home no starting reason,like a city  fro example,just drop you down in the middle of nowhere.
    Point being that YES vanilla in games is likely better than anything opted towards end game but it still does not mean it was a good solid design,average at best.

    I dreamed of seeing this genre advance into something great,where everyday we felt like we really were in a living world.FFX was that awesome example,you felt like a part of the world,sometimes sleeping,playing Blitzball,it was not about gear grinds or end game.I have hoped devs could achieve a similar type game but in a MMO atmosphere and not a bunch of yellow markers over npc heads to follow in a linear fashion.

    I have given up hope of seeing that great truly Triple A mmorpg in my lifetime,oh well,someday some of you or your kids will see that great game and look back and realize ALL of these mmorpg's were not really that good.

    There are many ways to make a game. Sandbox, themepark. Levels, skillbased or a buy system. Quests, DEs or both. And almost unlimited ways no-one tried yet.

    But I agree, we all come down to the endgame most MMOs have today, it is not popular and most MMOs players try to avoid it.

    If we want MMOs to become as popular as they were 10 years ago we need a new endgame.
    Gdemamidrivendawn
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,112
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:


    I don't have as much time today as I had in 1996 but I can still live with a slower game that takes a year to reach max level if I play casually, I don't see why that is a problem as long as leveling is fun. People today only think of the endgame but as long as you have fun, does it matter if you ever reach it?
    As Manfred Mann sang, "But mama, that's where the fun is...."

    Or so many players have come to believe.

    For many players, the concept of playing (and paying) for the same game month after month is foreign, they just aren't going to do it so developers are encouraged to find a way to get as much money from them up front or as early as possible after joining, and the designs and monetization models often reflect this.


    I really started noticing this when single player games started to take alot less time to complete....I knew several people that would buy a single player game, play it all weekend until they beat it, then never touch it again...I think it disciplined their minds to where games are short term and not long term.
    Depends on what do you expect from a game. They realized some people prefer to finish a game in a weekend. So they have made that an option. But even most of those titles can provide ~50hr of gameplay.

    I either quit a game I don't like, or would go for the full experience. Besides Telltale games, can't recall any other game taking less than 50 hours to complete. 
    Torval
    I am a piece of carbon with a soul, wondering where I got it from. 
    - Drunken Mozart in the Desert
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,102
    Loke666 said:
    Wizardry said:
    There is really only two ways to make the game,so there is no real old school versus new school.

    Instead what i am seeing is developers that don't want to spend the money or time or effort to make a really good rpg with mmo elements,instead try to change the actual genre into something that is both not a mmo nor a rpg.

    The reason people look at vanilla Wow is because they are thinking back BEFORE it's true face "end game" showed it's ugly face.However  when i look back it maybe had lot's of rpg elements but it was a poor MMO,as it was predominantly meant to solo all the time.Wow failed at the core basic delivery of a RPG game,no home no starting reason,like a city  fro example,just drop you down in the middle of nowhere.
    Point being that YES vanilla in games is likely better than anything opted towards end game but it still does not mean it was a good solid design,average at best.

    I dreamed of seeing this genre advance into something great,where everyday we felt like we really were in a living world.FFX was that awesome example,you felt like a part of the world,sometimes sleeping,playing Blitzball,it was not about gear grinds or end game.I have hoped devs could achieve a similar type game but in a MMO atmosphere and not a bunch of yellow markers over npc heads to follow in a linear fashion.

    I have given up hope of seeing that great truly Triple A mmorpg in my lifetime,oh well,someday some of you or your kids will see that great game and look back and realize ALL of these mmorpg's were not really that good.

    There are many ways to make a game. Sandbox, themepark. Levels, skillbased or a buy system. Quests, DEs or both. And almost unlimited ways no-one tried yet.

    But I agree, we all come down to the endgame most MMOs have today, it is not popular and most MMOs players try to avoid it.

    If we want MMOs to become as popular as they were 10 years ago we need a new endgame.

    A new end game would be nice...... But a large long game would be ok too.

    How about 4 to 9 months worth of content with replayability ? 
    How about being level 24 for a few days, remember this ?
    Gdemami
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,801

    A new end game would be nice...... But a large long game would be ok too.

    How about 4 to 9 months worth of content with replayability ? 
    How about being level 24 for a few days, remember this ?
    I think we need to cut down on the amount of levels as well. 80 or 100 levels is not really more fun. People did enjoy to level up so some moron thought we should have tons of levels but that made leveling less fun and made getting good gear before the endgame pointless.

    What I want to see is slow leveling for the first toon but faster leveling when you make an alt that reaches a level you already have on another toon. Being lvl 24 for days is fine on your main but boring and grindy on an alt.
    KyleranConstantineMerusGdemami
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 3,966
    edited October 7
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    Loke666 said:


    I don't have as much time today as I had in 1996 but I can still live with a slower game that takes a year to reach max level if I play casually, I don't see why that is a problem as long as leveling is fun. People today only think of the endgame but as long as you have fun, does it matter if you ever reach it?
    As Manfred Mann sang, "But mama, that's where the fun is...."

    Or so many players have come to believe.

    For many players, the concept of playing (and paying) for the same game month after month is foreign, they just aren't going to do it so developers are encouraged to find a way to get as much money from them up front or as early as possible after joining, and the designs and monetization models often reflect this.




    Bingo. 

    The concept of how players habits changed over the years and the shift to shorter gameplay sessions and more game hopping cannot be overstated.




    I can't count how many people here on these forums such as you, Torval and others have said back in the day you would play one MMO at a time,  for a long period of time but no longer will do so today.

    I remain the purist, still only playing one game at a time (even with single player games now) but there are few like me these days, even here.

    I agree, I think the era of large numbers of players deciding large amounts of time to a single game are long past.  

    No doubt there is a niche that will still will but my guess is it won't be large.

    Heck, I don't think I fall into the long term player category and I might even even start playing "two" games at a time..whoo hoo

    Yep the days of people playing a single long session game (like MMORPGs) for years are long gone. 

    Example - Look at the most popular game on Steam - PlayerUnknown Battlegrounds it hit 1.8 million concurrent players- it's exactly how masses play games today - jump in, get into a match/world, play for 10-15min, rinse and repeat.

    Short playsessions are KEY to massive successes, being able to get to action quickly is key. It's not like players don't play PUBG for hours straight - they do - but it's still a bunch of short games in a row.

    Old school persistent world MMORPGs - like EQ1 and what Pantheon's doing - are the antithesis of how players play today, stuff like taking 20-30min just to GET to the spot where you are going to hunt for XP - yeah the vast majority simply has no patience for that.

    Don't get me wrong - as an old school player - I have no issues with EQ1 vanilla or Pantheon slow paced long session gameplay, but I am in the extreme minority - your average player today has no tolerance for this.
     
    Yea but Kano , i get the point you are trying to make with that ... But the people playing PUGB Are not MMORPG players they are FPS players and are playing the same sessions they have always played ( we all dive into those)Short session play  .. True MMORPG players are still in there game for the long haul,and longer play sessions,(of there chosen MMORPG game/games) , and this always was a smaller pop and always will be .. The FPS and MOBA crowd are just that .. FPS and MOBA players in it for short sessions
    Post edited by Scorchien on
    Gdemami
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,102
    Loke666 said:

    A new end game would be nice...... But a large long game would be ok too.

    How about 4 to 9 months worth of content with replayability ? 
    How about being level 24 for a few days, remember this ?
    I think we need to cut down on the amount of levels as well. 80 or 100 levels is not really more fun. People did enjoy to level up so some moron thought we should have tons of levels but that made leveling less fun and made getting good gear before the endgame pointless.

    What I want to see is slow leveling for the first toon but faster leveling when you make an alt that reaches a level you already have on another toon. Being lvl 24 for days is fine on your main but boring and grindy on an alt.

    Fast leveling has so many downfalls and nothing good: 
    - Being level 24 for days lets new abilities sink in...allows practice.
    - Being level 24 for days allows you to make and keep friends at your level.  Have you ever lost a new friend because he played three hours more than you now he's level 31.
    - Being level 24 for days, allows you to enjoy a zone longer.

    Advantages of fast levels are for developers only:
    - Less content for each level.
    - Less large zones.
    - No need to practice, if your health bar doesn't go down.  What good are abilities ?

    Healing is a thing of the past !
    Tanking is a thing of the past !

    GdemamiCogohi
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,978
    yes when i said two ways to make a game it was either linear questing or not.I am referring to how xp is allotted.I know lot's don't agree but imo xp should never be given for quests and i am not about to explain why,done it many times already,the reason should be obvious.

    All the subtle differences have no relation to old school or new,ideas are different from game to game through all years of game creation.

    FFXi and Wow have a few years in between each,so pretty much the same era,they are nothing of the same.The only time we can really establish an old versus new is if we talk MUDS versus actual 3D video games.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,978
    People also seem to not understand another obvious concept,just because you might not have liked an idea from some old game does NOT mean it can never work.As well SELFISH reasons do not cut it,one has to figure what is best for everyone in a common sense,realistic manner.


    i have seen all sorts of devs claim certain idea are bad,what people seem to forget is that developer is merely supporting THEIR own game.You cannot listen to biased comments from developers nor even websites that profit by partnering with these developers,you will always get BS.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,801
    Loke666 said:
    I think we need to cut down on the amount of levels as well. 80 or 100 levels is not really more fun. People did enjoy to level up so some moron thought we should have tons of levels but that made leveling less fun and made getting good gear before the endgame pointless.

    What I want to see is slow leveling for the first toon but faster leveling when you make an alt that reaches a level you already have on another toon. Being lvl 24 for days is fine on your main but boring and grindy on an alt.

    Fast leveling has so many downfalls and nothing good: 
    - Being level 24 for days lets new abilities sink in...allows practice.
    - Being level 24 for days allows you to make and keep friends at your level.  Have you ever lost a new friend because he played three hours more than you now he's level 31.
    - Being level 24 for days, allows you to enjoy a zone longer.

    Advantages of fast levels are for developers only:
    - Less content for each level.
    - Less large zones.
    - No need to practice, if your health bar doesn't go down.  What good are abilities ?

    Healing is a thing of the past !
    Tanking is a thing of the past !

    If I played 4-9 months leveling up my main I think I can get a different class in a couple of weeks.

    As for keeping friends at your level, that doesn't really work if he plays more then you, soon you'll be 28 and he 32 and so on.

    And I notice a lot of your argument is more about difficulty then actual level, while modern games tend to speed up levels and decrease difficulty there is no reason they have to do both.

    I am agreeing with about levelspeed but I just don't see the point to grind  several characters through that slow speed. There is no reason people shouldn't be able to have alts, it will just force you to sepeat the same content over and over and make a rather insane grind.

    The first time you complete a zone in a slow leveling game you feel rather done with it, I rather not have a common level for all characters since we wont learn to play the others that way but once you have leveled up to max that should be the only purpose of leveling alts unless you have side unique zones and MMOs rarely if at all have those today.
    ConstantineMerusRobsolf
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,801
    Wizardry said:
    yes when i said two ways to make a game it was either linear questing or not.I am referring to how xp is allotted.I know lot's don't agree but imo xp should never be given for quests and i am not about to explain why,done it many times already,the reason should be obvious.

    All the subtle differences have no relation to old school or new,ideas are different from game to game through all years of game creation.

    FFXi and Wow have a few years in between each,so pretty much the same era,they are nothing of the same.The only time we can really establish an old versus new is if we talk MUDS versus actual 3D video games.

    Actually, XP should be rewarded for actual quests but not for the menial task 95% of the so called "quests" are. Delivering a message to a guy 20 feet away is not a quests, it is hardly even a task.

    Throwing the one ring into mount Doom is a quest or reclaiming your stolen throne (maybe by gaining control of 3 dragons and an army).
    ConstantineMerusRobsolf
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,670
    yes they are real flaws.
  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastMember UncommonPosts: 2,074
    Back in the day of WoW when it was good yes you literally knew everyone on the server that logged in the same time zone you did. These days it's a little harder as it's different people each time so you can't get a close community anymore unless your in a guild with friends.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,431
    edited October 8
    Well as a companion to your other thread this teases out another direction we were headed in right from the start towards the EasyMMO. This was on the cards way before the move towards cheapMMOs began. 

    But you don't mention the setting within that of gaming as a whole, which was on a slower road to easymode itself. The process was accelerated in MMOs due to their being dependant on continued subscription and then continued cash shop sales. Rather than solo games which had no reason to make you want to continue the playing the game in a few months time.

    To keep you playing in a MMO developers started to remove any "difficulties", such as making sure you had no meaningful choices you could come to regret like the "wrong" advanced class. How was the best way to do that? In their opinion it was to remove advanced classes, specializations etc or make them meaningless by allowing you to switch between them.

    The key design principle became keeping you in the game, which distorted gameplay in a way solo gaming had never seen. Today we have "solo" gaming with so much multiplayer elements that it too succumbed to the easy mode model.

    RIP Hardmode.
    Post edited by Scot on

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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,801
    Akulas said:
    Back in the day of WoW when it was good yes you literally knew everyone on the server that logged in the same time zone you did. These days it's a little harder as it's different people each time so you can't get a close community anymore unless your in a guild with friends.
    Some of us work different hours and we get very few PUGs (I work nights and some works evnings) so for us the mega servers help a lot.

    A game like GW2 could be far better to put you in the same zone with as many of your server as possible though (unless you group with people from other servers) during primetime though, that is technically not that hard.
    ConstantineMerus
  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALMember RarePosts: 1,981
    I have to say yeah, old school games had flaws but they were mainly tech problems do to being well ..old. However I am not against some modern convenience either. I have to say though I find many modern MMO's really drop the ball by not making it more about the journey. You lvl through all these areas really fast and many times have no reason to revisit besides gathering maybe. So when people get to "end game" they just jump ship right and left because maybe 10% do hard core raiding.  :|
  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 OsloMember UncommonPosts: 380
    I think this MMOrpg forum sucks! As if wasn't bad enough by having the front page load in a bizarre way, looking at the topic title for thread also annoy the shit out of me. If you want to put an emphasis on a question, you use a freaking question mark, not an exclamation point!

    Seems like people don't care for explaining what they mean, and I am thinking that maybe they are kids or maybe they don't have English as a native language, and then I am speculating that forum posts are artificially made, as if spammed on the forum, by people to try create a sense of it being busy.

    I do not want to visit this forum anymore because every time I come here, the opinions expressed and the topics raised seems so clumsy and stupid.
    Kyleran

    This forums sucks!

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,164
    I think this MMOrpg forum sucks! As if wasn't bad enough by having the front page load in a bizarre way, looking at the topic title for thread also annoy the shit out of me. If you want to put an emphasis on a question, you use a freaking question mark, not an exclamation point!

    Seems like people don't care for explaining what they mean, and I am thinking that maybe they are kids or maybe they don't have English as a native language, and then I am speculating that forum posts are artificially made, as if spammed on the forum, by people to try create a sense of it being busy.

    I do not want to visit this forum anymore because every time I come here, the opinions expressed and the topics raised seems so clumsy and stupid.
    You just hurt my feelings :neutral:
    ConstantineMerusKyleran

  • Blaze_RockerBlaze_Rocker KentuckyMember UncommonPosts: 227
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.


    Pretty sure those aren't flaws. Last time I checked, that's called "Playing the game as it's meant to be played".

    Don't like actually playing a game that requires you to actually do something? Then go find a game that caters to the special kind of snowflake that you are.

    If you can program for the Hero engine, and can spare some of your time on a regular basis, come on over to Heroes and Villains and help us build the next great spiritual successor to City of Heroes. Come help us recreate that old magic and get former players back in the game.

    http://www.heroes-and-villains.com/phpb/index.php

  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,801
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.


    Pretty sure those aren't flaws. Last time I checked, that's called "Playing the game as it's meant to be played".

    Don't like actually playing a game that requires you to actually do something? Then go find a game that caters to the special kind of snowflake that you are.

    What game? EQ certainly was made to be played that way but the newer games aren't.

    The main problem with modern MMOs is that almost all of them cateer to the same audience. In the late 90s to early 00s we had games like AC, UO, DaoC and many more filling their own niches, today the few games we have doing it like Eve are really old.

    As soon as you want something slightly different you have a very limited number of choices.

    But remaking those games wont really work as well as many here thinks, it is better to find an untapped playergroup large enough and make a new game designed just for them instead.

    For instance are there no good dungeon focused game anymore, all dungeons that matters get put in the endgame and there is actually a rather large potential playerbase for that. Just copying EQ for that wont cut it, make something new.

    People seems to enjoy flying mounts, license Dragonlance and put some focus on air combat between dragons, add in another group like open world group fans and you certainly could get plenty of players, the groupers have nowhere to go and the aerial combat in MMOs are pathetic at best.

    Just find a large enough group or 2 that have nothing to play and make something new and interesting for them. Right now all games are focused on super casuals for the open world and raiders for the endgame and while super casuals are the largest group there are 100 games competing for them while millions of players have very limited number of games to choose from.

    Everyone seems to think their game will be the next Wow and aim on the group that currently play it but guess what? You ain't going to get those players, at least not for more then a few weeks.
    Gdemami
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