Starting Cities

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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,671
    Kyleran said:


    I have a circle of friends who are mostly couples, very insular, there's about 10 of them who regularly group together in every game they play, so the last thing they want is to be forced into one area or continent or be kept apart of 10 or more levels.

    If this game is anything like EQ, It's more like an hour or two.

    That's how long it takes for a newbie character to run from Qeynos or Halas to Ak'anon.
    It's less time if everyone meets halfway, say Commonlands tunnel.

    There's been varying opinions on this thread. You and DMKano say its pretty easy, others have painted it as a bit of a challenge, depends how much you know I suppose.

    Others have said factional differences could be an issue, Orcs would not be welcome in  human city, and attacked by the npc guards.

    Some say content in the starter cities would be tailored to be race specific, and consistent with the lore.

    I'm all for travel time in games, even longer ones but it has to serve a meaningful purpose.

    I've yet to hear a convincing argument against making grouping easier on a group centered game for people just starting out.

    This does not mean I'm advocating for fast travel everywhere,  or dungeon finders, far from it.

    But I am in support of mechanics that hold the interest of a reasonable population of players and doesnt obstruct their enjoyment of the early game, as so many fall by the wayside at this critical time.

    One of the greatest complaints against VG was the many different unique racial starting areas segregated the player population far too much, and SOEs solution which most appeared enjoy was a single starter island for everyone. (Which other games have also used)

    I'm not even suggesting this game take that path, I enjoyed the starting areas in VG,  just let people start where they will, or make it easy to get to another one.

    AmatheMadFrenchie

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 119
    edited October 20
    Kyleran said:

    I have a circle of friends who are mostly couples, very insular, there's about 10 of them who regularly group together in every game they play, so the last thing they want is to be forced into one area or continent or be kept apart of 10 or more levels.

    While I'm the "disloyal" member of the group who frequently goes off to solo level, play other games, or even join different guilds in the same game they won't vary, if a game puts up a bunch of blockers to grouping together they won't play it.

    Heck, if preserving the lore is so vital, then add in another new starting location, away from the other's  and let these folks start there and then visit the rest of the world as they wish.

    Again, I don't really care, other than I would like to see my friends try this game, but if they can't group together easily and early they won't be interested. 






    Do your friends have :
    "An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses."
    and
    "An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding." ?

    It seems like, from your description, they may not agree with some of the above tenants that are the foundation for the game.

    If your circle of friends won't play a game that doesn't allow them to group together early and easily, this is likely not the game for them.

    That seems like such a minor hindrance. 
    If you can't even be bothered to level up a little bit and make a long run to meet your friend, I doubt their play style is one that agrees with a harsh death penalty or challenging gameplay.








    Post edited by LegotheHutt on
    Gyva02jpedrote52
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,390
    Pantheon is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people, but once they get over it they'll end up admitting it's refreshing and more enticing to continue playing.
    Zuljan


  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,958
    I think what is going to be  rude awakening is that Pantheon will not be Project 1999 with updated graphics. 
    ZuljanKyleranMrMelGibson

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 119
    Most people haven't even played P99.  I don't think that will be an issue.
    svann
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 121
    edited October 20
    Dullahan said:
    Pantheon is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people, but once they get over it they'll end up admitting it's refreshing and more enticing to continue playing.
    @kyleran I really agree with this. A lot of the meaning behind the significance of non-trivial travel at early levels is hard to put into words that haven't already been expressed. In a nutshell, it drastically affects immersion. This game really thrives on getting us attached emotionally to our race and starting city (read the racial lore if you haven't, the stories are masterfully executed). You need to be isolated at the start for this absorption effect to really sink in, for quick travel would ultimately take away the drastic commitment of class/race choice, which will inevitably leave us with a much more casual/loose feel. 

    Forcing us to accept and endure the consequences of our starting race (if you're KOS in certain cities, how far you are from your friends, some races like halflings get experience bonus and levels much faster etc) affords us with the feeling that we made a very "big decision" right from the start of the game (i.e. risk vs reward). You feel INVESTED in what you chose, because the consequences are severe (for better and worse). 

    It's such a big commitment that you subconsciously end up having pride for your race and city (sounds cheesy but it's true). The cities and cultures are just so vastly different. I mean imagine if we could instantly teleport to China, London, Cape Town, whatever. Would vacationing and seeing other cultures be as fun, important, or influential to us? Over time everything in the world would seem like it's within arms reach, which would take away the immersion and excitement we get when we travel to far away places. It works the same way here. And honestly, worst case scenario, if people care so little about lore and the significance of the risk/reward for travelling at early levels, there is already a built in system for you to play together with friends; choose the same race or races who's starting cities are close together.
    Post edited by Zuljan on
    deniterdcutbi001
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,671
    edited October 20
    Kyleran said:

    I have a circle of friends who are mostly couples, very insular, there's about 10 of them who regularly group together in every game they play, so the last thing they want is to be forced into one area or continent or be kept apart of 10 or more levels.

    While I'm the "disloyal" member of the group who frequently goes off to solo level, play other games, or even join different guilds in the same game they won't vary, if a game puts up a bunch of blockers to grouping together they won't play it.

    Heck, if preserving the lore is so vital, then add in another new starting location, away from the other's  and let these folks start there and then visit the rest of the world as they wish.

    Again, I don't really care, other than I would like to see my friends try this game, but if they can't group together easily and early they won't be interested. 






    Do your friends have :
    "An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses."
    and
    "An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding." ?

    It seems like, from your description, they may not agree with some of the above tenants that are the foundation for the game.

    If your circle of friends won't play a game that doesn't allow them to group together early and easily, this is likely not the game for them.

    That seems like such a minor hindrance. 
    If you can't even be bothered to level up a little bit and make a long run to meet your friend, I doubt their play style is one that agrees with a harsh death penalty or challenging gameplay.



    To turn that back around, if it's a minor hindrance then it's mostly useless and there should be no major issue letting them start together or get together quickly.


    Flawless execution of a logical fallacy, Ad hominem attacks are a well worn technique when you can't present a reasonable argument.

    But you could be right, perhaps its not the game for them, and I'm sure the developers don't need their money. 





    Post edited by Kyleran on
    LegotheHuttZuljan

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 119
    edited October 20
    Just because something is minor doesn't mean it should be done away with or is useless.  This is not a logical response:

    Kyleran said: "if it's a minor hindrance then it's mostly useless and there should be no major issue letting them start together or get together quickly."


    Kyleran said: "But you could be right, perhaps its not the game for them, and I'm sure the developers don't need their money.  "

    Yep, it has always been advertised as a niche game and not for everyone.  Here is an article stating Brad's opinion.  The part relevant to this discussion starts in paragraph 2 and goes from there.




    Post edited by LegotheHutt on
  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,850
    Zuljan said:
    Dullahan said:
    Pantheon is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people, but once they get over it they'll end up admitting it's refreshing and more enticing to continue playing.
    I really agree with this. A lot of the meaning behind the significance of non-trivial travel at early levels is hard to put into words that haven't already been expressed. In a nutshell, it drastically affects immersion. This game really thrives on getting us attached emotionally to our race and starting city (read the racial lore if you haven't, the stories are masterfully executed). You need to be isolated at the start for this absorption effect to really sink in, for quick travel would ultimately take away the drastic commitment of class/race choice, which will inevitably leave us with a much more casual/loose feel. 

    Forcing us to accept and endure the consequences of our starting race (if you're KOS in certain cities, how far you are from your friends, some races like halflings get experience bonus and levels much faster etc) affords us with the feeling that we made a very "big decision" right from the start of the game (i.e. risk vs reward). You feel INVESTED in what you chose, because the consequences are severe (for better and worse). 

    It's such a big commitment that you subconsciously end up having pride for your race and city (sounds cheesy but it's true). The cities and cultures are just so vastly different. I mean imagine if we could instantly teleport to China, London, Cape Town, whatever. Would vacationing and seeing other cultures be as fun, important, or influential to us? Over time everything in the world would seem like it's within arms reach, which would take away the immersion and excitement we get when we travel to far away places. It works the same way here. And honestly, worst case scenario, if people care so little about lore and the significance of the risk/reward for travelling at early levels, there is already a built in system for you to play together with friends; choose the same race or races who's starting cities are close.
    While you're perfectly right in what you say, there is an equal side that doesn't believe that Pantheon is going to be that perfect game.  There is a major deja vu aspect of having 'been there, done that' that no one really has a clear handle on.  Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't.  There are also questions about the size of the population this game will attract.  Will there be enough to sustain a profitable business with their business model, or will there be financial issues that force VR to change their plans.  It proves to be a fascinating few years that will go some way to answering some of these questions.  I've said it before, but I'm glad its not my money on the line.

    ----------
    I wonder exactly what lore / culture / societies prior games have established in their starting cities that formed such loyalty to the concept of lore.  What makes these starting cities that have been discussed so different from one another?  To me, Grobb and Qeynos aren't very different.  Yes, the NPCs are hostile to other factions, and both sell every item a player can ever need from NPC vendors.  Both support the main classes that these races can be, selling spells, skills, and consumables.

    There are quest lines there, but are there really any vital quests for Trolls in Grobb in EQ1, or essential quests for Humans in Qeynos?  Not really.  There's nothing to do that impacts the character to such a degree that the starting city imparts more 'humanity' for human characters, or makes troll characters identify more with the troll race?  If there are, I certainly can't think of them.

    So, what is it about the lore ingrained in a starting city that is so fundamental to playing a specific race?  How do you expect Pantheon to support this 'feeling'?  How is this going to be different from previous games?

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 121
    edited October 21
    Mendel said:
    Zuljan said:
    Dullahan said:
    Pantheon is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people, but once they get over it they'll end up admitting it's refreshing and more enticing to continue playing.
    I really agree with this. A lot of the meaning behind the significance of non-trivial travel at early levels is hard to put into words that haven't already been expressed. In a nutshell, it drastically affects immersion. This game really thrives on getting us attached emotionally to our race and starting city (read the racial lore if you haven't, the stories are masterfully executed). You need to be isolated at the start for this absorption effect to really sink in, for quick travel would ultimately take away the drastic commitment of class/race choice, which will inevitably leave us with a much more casual/loose feel. 

    Forcing us to accept and endure the consequences of our starting race (if you're KOS in certain cities, how far you are from your friends, some races like halflings get experience bonus and levels much faster etc) affords us with the feeling that we made a very "big decision" right from the start of the game (i.e. risk vs reward). You feel INVESTED in what you chose, because the consequences are severe (for better and worse). 

    It's such a big commitment that you subconsciously end up having pride for your race and city (sounds cheesy but it's true). The cities and cultures are just so vastly different. I mean imagine if we could instantly teleport to China, London, Cape Town, whatever. Would vacationing and seeing other cultures be as fun, important, or influential to us? Over time everything in the world would seem like it's within arms reach, which would take away the immersion and excitement we get when we travel to far away places. It works the same way here. And honestly, worst case scenario, if people care so little about lore and the significance of the risk/reward for travelling at early levels, there is already a built in system for you to play together with friends; choose the same race or races who's starting cities are close.
    While you're perfectly right in what you say, there is an equal side that doesn't believe that Pantheon is going to be that perfect game.  There is a major deja vu aspect of having 'been there, done that' that no one really has a clear handle on.  Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't.  There are also questions about the size of the population this game will attract.  Will there be enough to sustain a profitable business with their business model, or will there be financial issues that force VR to change their plans.  It proves to be a fascinating few years that will go some way to answering some of these questions.  I've said it before, but I'm glad its not my money on the line.

    ----------
    I wonder exactly what lore / culture / societies prior games have established in their starting cities that formed such loyalty to the concept of lore.  What makes these starting cities that have been discussed so different from one another?  To me, Grobb and Qeynos aren't very different.  Yes, the NPCs are hostile to other factions, and both sell every item a player can ever need from NPC vendors.  Both support the main classes that these races can be, selling spells, skills, and consumables.

    There are quest lines there, but are there really any vital quests for Trolls in Grobb in EQ1, or essential quests for Humans in Qeynos?  Not really.  There's nothing to do that impacts the character to such a degree that the starting city imparts more 'humanity' for human characters, or makes troll characters identify more with the troll race?  If there are, I certainly can't think of them.

    So, what is it about the lore ingrained in a starting city that is so fundamental to playing a specific race?  How do you expect Pantheon to support this 'feeling'?  How is this going to be different from previous games?
    With all respect, I wasn't trying to sell the game and nowhere did I say it's going to be perfect; no one could possibly know that. I was explicitly addressing the ease of starting city travel. If you wanted to compare/contrast the old school cities and what gave races and identity, I definitely wouldn't use quests as any example for cultural immersion. In fact, quests were almost non-existent?

    Maybe a better example would be wood elves vs dark elves or ogres. Wood elves' entire city is in the trees. You use wooden elevators that lift you to the sky, you forage items for tradeskills and food, living off the land as you fight wisps, wasps, and things sylvan/pure by nature. The music is calm and reassuring. The items and drops are nature centric. The sun is always shining during the day. Guards and guildmasters' entire dialogue is a 180 compared to DEs and Ogres. WE NPCs are kind, intelligent, warm, loving, resolute/pure in their goals. The bordering zones, too, play on the theme of nature, and the invading orcs in butcherblock, along with some things in lesser faydark, which they hint that you will need to return there at some point to rid various evils. Your entire experience is tied to a pure sense of nature, preservation, and "good," for quite a while. 

    Dark elves are literally evil, they talk evil, the snicker at you and laugh wildly, they look evil, the city is Gothic and dark with a lot of water (and it's tucked away completely underground). The music is entirely foreboding and different. They worship dark gods and you feel like the villain/outlaw at every turn. You are warned of how threatening your race is to others. No one is there to help you, you feel alone, like you have to earn your black stripes like all of the other DEs. They seek death and harbor the dead for their bidding, almost constantly. They wield things like scythes and have a harsh language. You're killing skeletons and apparitions that laugh and scream creepy in a misty, dreary looking zone and the surrounding zones play to that as well, collecting bone chips and other depressing/dark items. It feels dark and cold, and dank everywhere. The land is barren with no living nature if I recall. You can't understand what other people say because you know can't speak common tongue, and of course your KOS to half the world, so you have to slink around everywhere like a criminal. I dont know if you could even get to boats without being killed.

    I could go on for days about the cultural differences and feeling. I remember first rolling a DE necro and just didn't like the feel of it. It's not like choosing Horde in WoW...you feel evil playing a DE or troll, and so many of their elements affect your day to day process. And we might even think of EQ/VG as a black and white movie and Pantheon a movie in color; the dramatic graphic and technical changes is just going to make the world and the aforementioned details feel even more palpable. 

    All of this is, however, is like a book or movie; everyone will take from it as much as they put into it. You can choose to attach yourself to the world or not, but playing it like a movie or book, emotionally attaching yourself to your character in its entirety and the players around you make for the most rewarding experience in my opinion.
    Post edited by Zuljan on
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,671
    Just because something is minor doesn't mean it should be done away with or is useless.  This is not a logical response:

    Kyleran said: "if it's a minor hindrance then it's mostly useless and there should be no major issue letting them start together or get together quickly."


    Kyleran said: "But you could be right, perhaps its not the game for them, and I'm sure the developers don't need their money.  "

    Yep, it has always been advertised as a niche game and not for everyone.  Here is an article stating Brad's opinion.  The part relevant to this discussion starts in paragraph 2 and goes from there.




    The "relevant" part is right here, where Brad clearly states this is a game focused on getting people adventuring together again.

    Not very likely they will purposely support mechanics which might inhibit this in the name or lore or unnecessary challenge.

    "We've decided to attract gamers who love to team up with each other and take on the AI -- cooperative gamers who want more than session based games but to work together in a truly persistent environment. We've decided to go after people who want to explore and experience vast handcrafted worlds with compelling storylines and quests. We've targeted the online gamer who when they experience something emotionally intense would rather experience that with other people -- that, to them at least, experiencing challenges and even overcoming them together and as a team provides for muchmore memorable shared experiences"
    MadFrenchieLegotheHutt

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 121
    Kyleran said:
    Just because something is minor doesn't mean it should be done away with or is useless.  This is not a logical response:

    Kyleran said: "if it's a minor hindrance then it's mostly useless and there should be no major issue letting them start together or get together quickly."


    Kyleran said: "But you could be right, perhaps its not the game for them, and I'm sure the developers don't need their money.  "

    Yep, it has always been advertised as a niche game and not for everyone.  Here is an article stating Brad's opinion.  The part relevant to this discussion starts in paragraph 2 and goes from there.




    The "relevant" part is right here, where Brad clearly states this is a game focused on getting people adventuring together again.

    Not very likely they will purposely support mechanics which might inhibit this in the name or lore or unnecessary challenge.

    "We've decided to attract gamers who love to team up with each other and take on the AI -- cooperative gamers who want more than session based games but to work together in a truly persistent environment. We've decided to go after people who want to explore and experience vast handcrafted worlds with compelling storylines and quests. We've targeted the online gamer who when they experience something emotionally intense would rather experience that with other people -- that, to them at least, experiencing challenges and even overcoming them together and as a team provides for muchmore memorable shared experiences"
    Your interpretation is interesting. I think you're taking a statement a bit out of context to tailor to your argument...If he overtly said "we've decided to attract gamers who know each other in real life to team up with each other," that would be an entirely different story and I think we would all unanimously agree; however, no where does he say anything like that..he is encouraging the general population to work together; that is the only thing we can definitively confirm...the starting cities (as I explained because you had "yet to hear a good argument for starting cities") are pivotal for plot foundation and immersion.


  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 119
    You seemed to pick and choose the bit that you can mold to your own opinion instead of grasping the concept of the writeup as a whole.  Which was: that it is a niche game that isn't for everyone, and isn't trying to be.

    There is going to be an announcement at twitchcon tomorrow so hopefully we will all get to experience the "vision" of what the game will be sooner than we realize...
    Zuljan
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,390
    edited October 21
    Mendel said:
    So, what is it about the lore ingrained in a starting city that is so fundamental to playing a specific race?  How do you expect Pantheon to support this 'feeling'?  How is this going to be different from previous games?
    What is it about any place a person grows up that makes them feel connected with it? Is it that different than the next one over? Are people from your town different from others? Probably not, but they're your people. They shared your streets, your trees, your parks, your schools, your places of concourse, all of which create a common bond.

    Having played on the pvp servers where roleplaying was still common, people grew loyal to their starting cities, the surrounding areas, and other players they "grew up" with. Much like people grow loyal to their local schools and sports franchises.

    That is what an mmorpg attempts to create to make it more believable and give characters more identity. Not only race, but your class and reputation should open and close doors. A character should be more than just an arrangement of pixels.

    EQ also had a lot more flavor than you give it credit for. I definitely think it's something Pantheon should work on to make it even more central to one's character, but a lot of that already existed. Just by virtue of the fact that you couldn't merely wander to any other town an buy, sell, quest or train, that alone created a sense of belonging. Even an allied city might not regard you high enough to offer certain quests or services.

    That common identity and shared sense of identity and belonging also fosters teamwork and community - something that's gone the way of the dodo with all these wonderful conveniences.
    Post edited by Dullahan on


  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,850
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    So, what is it about the lore ingrained in a starting city that is so fundamental to playing a specific race?  How do you expect Pantheon to support this 'feeling'?  How is this going to be different from previous games?
    What is it about any place a person grows up that makes them feel connected with it? Is it that different than the next one over? Are people from your town different from others? Probably not, but they're your people. They shared your streets, your trees, your parks, your schools, your places of concourse, all of which create a common bond.

    Having played on the pvp servers where roleplaying was still common, people grew loyal to their starting cities, the surrounding areas, and other players they "grew up" with. Much like people grow loyal to their local schools and sports franchises.

    That is what an mmorpg attempts to create to make it more believable and give characters more identity. Not only race, but your class and reputation should open and close doors. A character should be more than just an arrangement of pixels.

    EQ also had a lot more flavor than you give it credit for. I definitely think it's something Pantheon should work on to make it even more central to one's character, but a lot of that already existed. Just by virtue of the fact that you couldn't merely wander to any other town an buy, sell, quest or train, that alone created a sense of belonging. Even an allied city might not regard you high enough to offer certain quests or services.

    That common identity and shared sense of identity and belonging also fosters teamwork and community - something that's gone the way of the dodo with all these wonderful conveniences.
    So, the mere coincidence that they share the environment of a starting city is the main contributor to the feeling of the concept of lore?  Was there nothing that the developers did that explicitly created that common bond?  Just pile a bunch of players in a common area and that's all?  You're talking 'community' and I'm talking 'lore'.  Not the same thing at all.

    I don't blame convenience features with the loss of community.  I haven't gotten a sense of community from SW:TOR or ESO.  Even grouping in those games feels more like a bunch of individuals soloing in the same general area.  The game I felt had the best community was DAoC and even it had a convenience travel system that didn't hurt the sense of community one bit.  That community was based not on a common starting location, but rather a shared goal / objective to set the realms against each other.

    There was nothing in EQ1 that promoted the lore.  Ogre warriors from Ogguk were identical to Half Elf warriors from Feydark.  They could do the same warrior Epic quest at higher levels.  There wasn't anything at the lore level that promoted a feeling of pride or belonging.  There wasn't a vital quest that ogre warriors had to do, nor for warriors of other races.  There wasn't a compelling story line that ogres aspired to follow.  The experience (and abilities) of different races warriors were not appreciably different.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,671
    edited October 21
    Zuljan said:
    Kyleran said:
    Just because something is minor doesn't mean it should be done away with or is useless.  This is not a logical response:

    Kyleran said: "if it's a minor hindrance then it's mostly useless and there should be no major issue letting them start together or get together quickly."


    Kyleran said: "But you could be right, perhaps its not the game for them, and I'm sure the developers don't need their money.  "

    Yep, it has always been advertised as a niche game and not for everyone.  Here is an article stating Brad's opinion.  The part relevant to this discussion starts in paragraph 2 and goes from there.




    The "relevant" part is right here, where Brad clearly states this is a game focused on getting people adventuring together again.

    Not very likely they will purposely support mechanics which might inhibit this in the name or lore or unnecessary challenge.

    "We've decided to attract gamers who love to team up with each other and take on the AI -- cooperative gamers who want more than session based games but to work together in a truly persistent environment. We've decided to go after people who want to explore and experience vast handcrafted worlds with compelling storylines and quests. We've targeted the online gamer who when they experience something emotionally intense would rather experience that with other people -- that, to them at least, experiencing challenges and even overcoming them together and as a team provides for muchmore memorable shared experiences"
    Your interpretation is interesting. I think you're taking a statement a bit out of context to tailor to your argument...If he overtly said "we've decided to attract gamers who know each other in real life to team up with each other," that would be an entirely different story and I think we would all unanimously agree; however, no where does he say anything like that..he is encouraging the general population to work together; that is the only thing we can definitively confirm...the starting cities (as I explained because you had "yet to hear a good argument for starting cities") are pivotal for plot foundation and immersion.


    I never argued against starting cities, and I don't see letting people choose their race and starting city as breaking immersion.

    All through the history of RPGs there have been members of a particular race who rebelled against their society, hence there's been "good" Dark Elves and Trolls and evil Dwarves or humans.

    In fact it presents a great role playing opportunity,   I roll a DE Assassin but choose to spawn in a "good region.

    The game could easily flip my faction so I was welcomed by my gnome brothers but should I ever try to visit my homeland I would be Kill on Sight.

    Now if the game will maintain factions to the point I will never be permitted to group with a good character or race, (perhaps that's the plan, and I would support) there's no purpose (other than that's how it always was and must be) to artificially maintain such lore in the starter areas.


    Post edited by Kyleran on

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,671
    edited October 21
    You seemed to pick and choose the bit that you can mold to your own opinion instead of grasping the concept of the writeup as a whole.  Which was: that it is a niche game that isn't for everyone, and isn't trying to be.

    There is going to be an announcement at twitchcon tomorrow so hopefully we will all get to experience the "vision" of what the game will be sooner than we realize...
    You seem to be missing the entire point, that MMORPGs need to stop trying to cater to everyone, choose a niche, and develop your game to it.

    So he then goes on to describe his target, people who want to group first and foremost, to live an adventure together.

    Nothing in his talk states maintaining the sanctity of the lore as a requirement for making "this" game.

    When discussing what audiences he's not targeting he states, "And there are other MMOs out there focusing on different target audiences -- PvP-centric games, more storytelling and RP games that contain both online and offline experiences, and much more."

    Whoops, he doesnt appear too concerned about story telling or ROLE PLAYING, only about grouping.

    Making a more challenging,  engaging MMORPG does not preclude in any way letting people start in the city they want, as the race and class they wish.

    Be careful trying to discern who this game is not targeted to, you may find out its not who you think it is.



    Post edited by Kyleran on

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 119
    You quoted me but I think you are mistaking me for someone who made any comments about lore.

    I was the one who mentioned that your "friends" might not agree with some of the tenants that have been laid out as the foundation of the game.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,814
    edited October 21
    I think he understood, his quoting you was to expound on your assertion that he was choosing one part to fit his mold.  He responded by adding further comments that support the idea that VR aren't focusing on RP or lore-building as the primary design philosophy, but a game that encourages group play and player interaction.  That's not the same as RP and lore focus.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    Kyleran

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  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 119
    I think you missed the point too frenchie.  We were discussing that the game has always been advertised as niche and not for everyone.  Group play/player interaction/roleplaying/lore...none of that pertained to our specific conversation.  But, that doesn't need to be repeated.

    Prealpha has been announced as starting soon.  That's exciting.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,814
    edited October 21
    Not so sure, I believe Kyleran was likely referring to the fact that, if VR is attempting to cater to the group play niche, there's no real incentive to actively preventing players from being able to play together early on by locking races to such starting cities with no recourse in linking up other than restricting their choices to the same race.

    Where's the benefit in such a restriction, if your primary philosophy revolves around encouraging group play?  The defense that's largely been offered within the context of the thread is the lore/RP aspect, which seems clearly less important to VR than ensuring players enjoy content together.

    The two quotes he supplied offers ample evidence that VR is creating a niche game: one that focuses on player interaction and group play.  Nothing about that would conflict with allowing players to start where they like.

    EDIT- In response to your last comment, I absolutely agree.  I really look forward to seeing how this game shapes up.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    Kyleran

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  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 119
    The game will encourage grouping in general.

     Making it easy to group with a specific person by allowing one player to meet up with another, specific, person across the world right away is twisting the concept to fit a narrative.  Those players will have plenty of options to group with others.




    dcutbi001
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,814
    The game will encourage grouping in general.

     Making it easy to group with a specific person by allowing one player to meet up with another, specific, person across the world right away is twisting the concept to fit a narrative.  Those players will have plenty of options to group with others.




    I'm not sure how that's twisting.  It seems more twisting to say it doesn't mean that because of an unrelated lore/RP value.

    If you're encouraging grouping, it's natural to encourage mechanics that would allow players to find folks to group with...  You seem to be twisting it to mean that players will be required to group with strangers, specifically.  Again, seems much more twisting to fit your own narrative than what Kyleraj is asserting..
    LegotheHuttKyleran

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  • jpedrote52jpedrote52 Member UncommonPosts: 64
    The game will encourage grouping in general.

     Making it easy to group with a specific person by allowing one player to meet up with another, specific, person across the world right away is twisting the concept to fit a narrative.  Those players will have plenty of options to group with others.




    I'm not sure how that's twisting.  It seems more twisting to say it doesn't mean that because of an unrelated lore/RP value.

    If you're encouraging grouping, it's natural to encourage mechanics that would allow players to find folks to group with...  You seem to be twisting it to mean that players will be required to group with strangers, specifically.  Again, seems much more twisting to fit your own narrative than what Kyleraj is asserting..
    They're not required to group with strangers specifically, that's ludicrous. What everyone that supports racial starting cities and meaningful travel is saying is: the game devs want starting cities to matter, with limited travel the game world will feel a lot larger and your starting race will have more impact because it determines where in the world you start, this inherently creates a segregation between races in the early game which will make the world feel that much larger because you can't just port where ever you want (even if it's a one time thing). Now if you want to play with your friends in the early levels you have 4 options, create a character with the same starting city, create a character relatively close to their starting city or create the character race you wish and run to them, or the final one ask for help from a high level to port you. If you can't bare playing the game for 5-10 levels without your full party of friends I don't know what to tell you, this is a game that will require massive time investment and the early levels will be the least of your problems. Also even if you could port to your friends starting city you'd still be KoS if you're an evil race and that's not good for a lowbie, That's why most evil races start close to evil races and Good races start close to good races, (there are exception ofc).
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 121
    edited October 22
    Not so sure, I believe Kyleran was likely referring to the fact that, if VR is attempting to cater to the group play niche, there's no real incentive to actively preventing players from being able to play together early on by locking races to such starting cities with no recourse in linking up other than restricting their choices to the same race.

    Where's the benefit in such a restriction, if your primary philosophy revolves around encouraging group play?  The defense that's largely been offered within the context of the thread is the lore/RP aspect, which seems clearly less important to VR than ensuring players enjoy content together.

    The two quotes he supplied offers ample evidence that VR is creating a niche game: one that focuses on player interaction and group play.  Nothing about that would conflict with allowing players to start where they like.

    EDIT- In response to your last comment, I absolutely agree.  I really look forward to seeing how this game shapes up.
    Again, nothing is stopping you from playing with your friends if you really want to (choose races with similar starting points). Apart from that, we have answered, multiple times "incentive to preventing players from starting anywhere together," explaining the immersion factor, and how it directly affects all travel, drama, and thus everything in between. 

    Check out the last Newsletter and the holistic approach to culture and anthropology they adopted for halflings. They left absolutely no stone unturned when it comes to racial qualities and cultural characteristics, going way above and beyond any other mmo, directly stating how all of this detail (the sap, the sigils and designs, geography topagraphy will ALL affect gameplay and lore in various ways). There are over 40 pages of arguments on the class/race matrix (i.e. why elves cant be paladins, halflings can't be warriors etc) which Brad and Kilsin said are absolutely necessary to achieve immersion, holistically (e.g. from travel all the way to perception and everything in between), and will not be changed for this reason.

    If that isn't enough, bounce over to the 30 page FAQ, where there are countless questions that are answered with reasons all  tied to lore and immersion. Brad's entire driving slogan the past 2 months has been "I want to create a world, not a game."

    There is way more advanced NPC ai in Terminus than every seen in an mmo (and I am not only speaking for combat, although when pre-alpha was officially announced last night, they overtly said there will be advanced combat AI like when you enter the room some mobs will rush and charge the healer no matter what), for the sole point of making the world feel more immersive. An example is on a given day, guard x might leave town at 9am to go to the neighboring city to re stock on supplies. If he dies, no one gets those supplies until he respawns (a long time), and he may not even leave at 9am every day if it's snowing or whatever). The point is, quite literally everything they're designing is to make this feel like a "westworld" mmo, where the environment is alive, and culture is thriving. Everything is done to take deep strides for immersion.

    Like Legothehutt said, you are choosing to hit certain points of arguments, and while I originally saw it as bigotry, I really do believe there is just a fundamental issue in perspective, for it is blatant that not having complete liberty to play with your friends the way you want to from day 1 is just too hardcore of a concept for you to feel open to (as of now). This is like the 3rd in depth reasoning we've given, and its virtually been the same response, with a little more detail sprinkled in each time.

    Just one last bit; I can't tell you how many of my fondest/most entertaining times came from having to meet new, random people at various parts of the world in EQ/VG. People are more mature in this game, and I dont have anything fancy to say other than it's just usually a really fun experience, akin to meeting people in real life. I think it stems from the fact that you have to communicate more in this game if you want to do big things, which forces people to come together and humans are a tribal species, so it innately feels good to achieve and accomplish with others. 
    Post edited by Zuljan on
    LegotheHutt
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