Starting Cities

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  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,843
    edited October 7
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Post edited by Mendel on
    DMKano

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,954
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.


    The reason is - many think the only way to do this is the way it was done back in 1999, and any deviation = bad.


    GdemamiMendeldrivendawnDullahanjimmywolfKyleranMrMelGibson
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,869
    DMKano said:
    The reason is - many think the only way to do this is the way it was done back in 1999, and any deviation = bad.


    ...entire game in a nutshell, beyond hopeless.

    RexKushmanRhoklawdcutbi001MrMelGibson
  • jpedrote52jpedrote52 Member UncommonPosts: 63
    I like the idea of starting cities, it's nice to start surrounded by your races cultures, learning their ways and seeing the architecture, exploring your home city until you know everything about it, or adventuring in the adjacent lands helping your race, it makes the world feel larger knowing that every other playable race also has their own huge city for you to someday explore. However I did like the idea of a neutral slave ship starting area, but it would make sense if that option has downsides, something like a bad geographical location to start levelling up because the area is surrounded by high level areas and because of that it's harder to get to the rest of the world.

    Even if players could choose the starting area to play with friends, they would still have to deal with different and hostile factions, if an ogre starts near a human town he's fucked.

    Don't know how much info there will be about the game, there's a strict NDA for all testing phases (except open beta ofc) so don't expect much info on youtube or fan sites, you'll need to search the forums and dig up the good stuff, not has easy as it might seam because it's not compiled and organized. 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,726
    edited October 7
    Mendel said:
    While I don't disagree with the "porting kills immersion" idea, what about the other aspect of meta-gaming that everyone seems to be okay with.  That is knowledge of the lands from sources outside the game -- spoiler sites, pre-launch testing and forums.  Where is the sense of exploration and immersion if you already know the route from Town A to Town B?  To me, that kills immersion as much, if not more, than porting.  Among the first things that spoiler sites put up have traditionally been high-level maps.  Getting lost is an important part of exploring, learning not to get lost is a skill that's even more important.  Both feed that sense of immersion.

    So, why is everyone against porting, but at the same time infer that it's okay for a newbie to know the route from one starting area to another?
    Just to comment here- this isn't really something that's realistically solvable by a developer.  Short of randomizing the map layouts every so often, you will never prevent this in this day and age.

    I have to disagree that I see a lot of folks actively "accepting" the meta game practice beyond the acceptance of the fact that it's unavoidable.

    Porting, travel times, waypoints- all that is completely within the control of the developers.  3rd party sites sharing game information isn't. 
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on

    image
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Tucson, AZMember UncommonPosts: 195
    Porting you have to get from another player (Community), when starting a new game finding a player that is going to port you to that area is going to be slim (might not have the spell/discovered area, whatever)

    Viewing a map on a site that someone posted so you don't waste an entire day running the wrong way is nothing, you still need to actually run across those zones, some being high level zones. you are trying to get to a friend not explore or seek out camps. This is also optional some people wont look at them.

    Choosing a race and cherry picking starting cities is sorry to say, dumb. There is a reason for good, bad and neutral alignment. I see some races of the same faction able to start at ally cities but should a ogre be able to start in a elf town cause your friend is there? No. Its not about making things hard but making things flow more than anything.

    At this point in development its really easy to plan with friends on where you want to start, what race you want to play as. Being separated for a few levels in the beginning is not a huge deal. If it is find a middle ground.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,226
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    Your original post was trying to infer the sense that old school forms of travel in MMOs is a dying breed and you hoped Pantheon would be bringing that back. The whole reason I brought up WoW was because that particular MMO is what started the whole instant gratification syndrome in this genre, specifically with travel times.

    As for people claiming that you don't have time to sit on a boat for 5 minutes because you are responsible by having a job and raising a family is a bunch of self entitled BS. You think I didn't have a job when I was playing EQ? Did that stop me from enjoying the game? Also, being responsible does not mean you are mature. I know a lot of immature people who have a job, simply because it provides money and nothing else. I however don't know a lot of immature people with a lot of patience.

    If you think about why WoW changed from traveling by land to dungeons to traveling to dungeons by clicking on a LFG button, it has more to do with lack of patience than enjoying a game. It's like those people who pay someone else to level up their character. To me, I simply can't wrap my head around people who do that. You are paying for a game and yet you don't enjoy playing it? Irony excels in today's world, that much is certain.

    Anyhow, most of this isn't even directed towards you Amathe, but I quoted you because you assumed I was poking fun at WoW players, but failed to take note that I didn't say WoW players were immature. I said WoW attracts immature players, which is completely different.
    DullahanGdemamidcutbi001

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,388
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    MadFrenchiedcutbi001


  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 657
    There's nothing stopping them from having a unique system for new starters so they can group together. Doesn't mean you can keep using it but some people just have to polarise everything to some kind of straw man extreme.

    Original Vanguard it could take half a day to hook up (you wouldn't survive a run below level 10 depending on where you started). If one of you was an orc and the other a hobbit, forget about the first 15 levels together. When rift way points were introduced this went down to a 20 minute run depending. Then came the island were everyone was together.

    KyleranMrMelGibson
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Bluefield, WVMember UncommonPosts: 1,252
    svann said:
    I dont think players should get a free ride to another starting town or the ability to be born there.  Each race should start at their own town and help populate that area.  If you really want to join friends at another town then hoof it over there.  That should not be impossible, just difficult.  That extra effort is the penalty you pay for abandoning your own noobville.  That would also be an adventure.


    When Agnarr started I ran my shaman from Halas to Ak'anon at 5th level to meet up with my wife's magician.

    Made it through High Hold and hit Kithkor at night, ducked into Rivervale to bind so I would not loose my entire run if I died. Ran back out and finished my run through Kithkor while it was still night. My closest call the entire run was Commonlands: freaking bears.

    dcutbi001

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,226
    I could barely navigate Felwithe, let alone cross-zone adventures. I still shudder at the amount of corpses on the ground because they slipped and fell off the platforms. Even with 3rd party websites helping players navigate. Nothing suggested on those sites could help with the dangers lurking within each zone. So yes, attempting a cross-zone adventure without at least SoW, was surely not going to end well.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 13,108
    Well some of those dangers you people speak of was what i found to be bad design.I remember sneaking up on a fort in VG and one inch too far "still quite far away" and the entire fort came running at a ridiculous speed and killed me before i could run a few steps.It looked very fake and turned me off.The fact the system designer or mapper or whomever had a part of that should have thought ..hmm this looks retarded,i better fix it,so yeah there are a lot of bad game design people out there.

    I like danger in making long runs but not impossible or because badly designed/coded.It was very dangerous to run several zones in FFXi to try and get to the main city hub where better trade/items could be had but many did it with careful movement and better aggro systems.

    So there alone is two ideas i want to see done better.Aggro systems,i don't want on a leash aggro of 20 mobs,not even 2,i wan mobs to react like they really would and i want more than just proximity aggro.I also don't want to see mobs as a clusterfuck,there should be some open spaces,mobs wouldn't be living side by side on every square inch of the game world.If i ran out in the bush right this minute i would be lucky to see even one deer,maybe one fox in the entire day,i wouldn't be tripping over them.
    LegotheHutt

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,666
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    DullahanMrMelGibson

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,666
    rounner said:
    There's nothing stopping them from having a unique system for new starters so they can group together. Doesn't mean you can keep using it but some people just have to polarise everything to some kind of straw man extreme.

    Original Vanguard it could take half a day to hook up (you wouldn't survive a run below level 10 depending on where you started). If one of you was an orc and the other a hobbit, forget about the first 15 levels together. When rift way points were introduced this went down to a 20 minute run depending. Then came the island were everyone was together.

    These convenience changes were done for specific good reason but some felt came too late.

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,226
    edited October 11
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    If it makes sense to do so, yes, which depends on lore. For instance, most of us know Tolkien lore and would find it pretty odd for an Orc player to spawn in the Shire so he can level up with his friend the Hobbit. A lot of it has to do with factions, not just race or class. Imagine a Erudin Necromancer spawning in Qeynos at level 1? Yeah, good luck with that, lol. You'll be in a death loop forever.

    EDIT: To expand on that, I think EQ's language and faction system increased the entertainment value. Heck, even WoW has language barriers between it's two factions. Not to mention, not every race in WoW can play every class and you didn't get to choose your starting city there either.
    Post edited by Rhoklaw on
    dcutbi001

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,666
    Rhoklaw said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    If it makes sense to do so, yes, which depends on lore. For instance, most of us know Tolkien lore and would find it pretty odd for an Orc player to spawn in the Shire so he can level up with his friend the Hobbit. A lot of it has to do with factions, not just race or class. Imagine a Erudin Necromancer spawning in Qeynos at level 1? Yeah, good luck with that, lol. You'll be in a death loop forever.

    EDIT: To expand on that, I think EQ's language and faction system increased the entertainment value. Heck, even WoW has language barriers between it's two factions. Not to mention, not every race in WoW can play every class and you didn't get to choose your starting city there either.
    If you are going to worry about factional lore such as Orcs and Hobbits or your Erudin Necro example in EQ1, then you have to go full monty with it.

    Players should be prohibited from grouping with the opposing factions players unless they square things with the NPCs first.


    Rhoklaw

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,726
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    That's why I asked about why some people appear to be upset at one type of immersion-breaking mechanisms (porting), but not other methods (spoiler sites).  Both accomplish the same thing (moving from A to B ) both with varying degree of immersion-breaking.  But the discussion has been roughly porting = bad, while meta-gaming = okay.  Perhaps there are unstated reasons why people think that fast travel is bad other than the breaking immersion argument.
    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    Eh I agree that there should be some kind of options regarding where a player starts their adventure to help those who want to start a game together, as well as some kind of travel system that gets a player in the vicinity of the area they wish to explore (akin to WoW's flight path system or GW2's way point system), but I don't think you can really equate 3rd party websites sharing guides to in-game systems in reference to "controlling" player behavior.

    Developers build systems around controlling player behavior in almost every game ever created, either through incentivizing a certain behavior or discouraging other behaviors.

    The attempts to equate 3rd party information sharing and in-game travel systems is nit-picky.

    image
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,388
    edited October 11
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:

    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    That's cute, but no I was referring to developers being able to control the level of challenge. They may not be able to keep players from researching out of game to find the easiest path, but that doesn't mean they just throw in the towel for the sake of accessibility.

    Sometimes I think you and DMKano are bipolar. One minute you talk of challenge and you're love of games that had it, but the next you're opposing the very things that created that environment.
    Post edited by Dullahan on
    svannMrMelGibson


  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,955
    It seems axiomatic to me that, in a game where the content is intended to be 80% or more for groups, sending a brand new player cross-continent(s) at the outset to solo search for his friends runs contrary to that intention. I read on here all the time how much damage solo play has done to the genre as a whole, and how unwelcome it is for this game, yet in defense of player friends initially being separated by long distances I am reading "I remember when I (solo) did this and when I (solo) did that, and how great it was? 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 23,054
    Amathe said:
    It seems axiomatic to me that, in a game where the content is intended to be 80% or more for groups, sending a brand new player cross-continent(s) at the outset to solo search for his friends runs contrary to that intention. I read on here all the time how much damage solo play has done to the genre as a whole, and how unwelcome it is for this game, yet in defense of player friends initially being separated by long distances I am reading "I remember when I (solo) did this and when I (solo) did that, and how great it was? 
    No it doesn't.

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Dullahandcutbi001



  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,388
    Not only should it be up to the player to find a way to adapt to the world (rather than the world be adapted to the player), but it's good that the game encourage players to interact with people they do not know. That was sort of a staple of early mmorpgs, and something developers have provided too many ways to circumvent.

    When you no longer need random players they do not matter and can be dispensed with. That only leads to a less friendly environment and one where reputation matters little.


  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,955
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 119
    Dangerous travel is one of the hardships that makes the genre good imho.  Remove it, or any number of other hardships, and you end up with an inferior game.

    I know many of us can use PoP as an example.  It is widely considered the steep decline of EQ for a number of reasons.  PoK books being a major reason.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 23,054
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 
    It's weird to say that people have to be with people/around people every single moment of the game experience. Especially if this is supposed to be "a world".

    Heck, I live in a city and I can walk down certain streets at certain times of the day and not see people.





  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,680
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    Sovrath said:

    And that person's friends can run to meet him/her as well.


    Solo. Got it. 
    It's weird to say that people have to be with people/around people every single moment of the game experience. Especially if this is supposed to be "a world".

    Heck, I live in a city and I can walk down certain streets at certain times of the day and not see people.



    And some people go to the bathroom in groups!  haha.
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