Starting Cities

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Comments

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,343
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.
    SovrathAzothLackingMMO


  • ZindaihasZindaihas Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 3,626
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 


    These are the kinds of things you have to take into consideration when making a character.  The devs cannot and should not sacrifice immersion in any way in favor of convenience (in my humble opinion).  So you have to weigh that against what you hope to accomplish early in the game.  If your goal is to hook up with friends you already know right from the start, then that could well mean making characters in the same starting city.  Or possibly finding two cities that are relatively close to each other so that you can make characters of different races and get together relatively early.

    One thing I would definitely do if I were the devs (and they may be, I don't know) is build roads between cities on the same continent which offer safer travel than wandering through the wilderness (but not completely safe).  That way if you want to make a character in a city different from a friend, then one of you will have to make the trek to the other's starting city and that way you'll be together from that point on.

    I assume there will be bind points in the game that you can change depending on where you go.

  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,908
    edited October 5
    Somehow the issue I raised has been given its least charitable interpteration. I am confident I never advocated for instant travel for everyone. What I did do is suggest a discussion of how to accomodate friends wanting to play together early in the game, that of course should be done in a way not to ruin the game's many challenges. But that is not nearly as fun I guess as accusing people of wanting WoW like casualism with the attendant primate chest thumping. So let me 
    join in then! Dadgum casuals hate em want something for nuthin - instant easy my little pony mmo. Friends should never even see each other for the first year. F'n A.

    Post edited by Amathe on

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Tucson, AZMember UncommonPosts: 187
    Amathe said:
    Somehow the issue I raised has been given its least charitable interpteration. I am confident I never advocated for instant travel for everyone. What I did do is suggest a discussion of how to accomodate friends wanting to play together early in the game, that of course should be done in a way not to ruin the game's many challenges. But that is not nearly as fun I guess as accusing people of wanting WoW like casualism with the attendant primate chest thumping. So let me 
    join in then! Dadgum casuals hate em want something for nuthin - instant easy my little pony mmo. Friends should never even see each other for the first year. F'n A.


    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.

    I think this really answers your question. When I first started eq I played as a barbarian warrior, my friend started before me but was only lvl 6 and was a human SK in Freeport. Now for those that didn't play eq that was a very far run. After so many raids, groups, stories that right there was one of my first stories to that game. The thrill of making it across the world(not the entire game world but at that lvl, it felt like it) Of course as the game goes on I'm sure there will be teleports like eq had. But if your in on launch day then it probably is out of the question.

    One thing you can do if started as the same race is out of the question is find a middle ground to meet at, or whoever is the braver of you can make the run to the other. I really enjoyed that run, it was challenging, really let me learn the land and helped me to find areas to come back to once I got high enough lvl. I see these things as a hurdle or an obstacle not a road block. It may seem crazy at the time but once you do it and look back it was worth it.

    Dullahandeniter
  • LegotheHuttLegotheHutt Astoria, ORMember UncommonPosts: 112
    Amathe, we know the location of the starting cities for the races (except the 3 whose starting cities are on Whitethaw...which is a whole other discussion that I'm not going to get into).
    That means you can probably plan ahead with your friends and choose races that have starting cities near each other.

     (Even if it's not the race you want to play in the long run...most people will end up switching races through the progeny system anyway so it might not make much difference what race/class you pick at first anyway)
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Bluefield, WVMember UncommonPosts: 1,241
    I hope not everyone (outside of mages, maybe druids) should port.  Land travel makes for memorable adventures, and opportunities to see and help out folks who are in trouble.  My most memorable EQ (heck, MMO) adventure was the long, perilous journey from Halas to Freeport.  It was a scary, heart-pounding, fantastic adventure.

    If there is too much porting, then the geography becomes trivial, folks become bored, and you see people aimlessly riding horses in circles around town, like they do in WOW's Dalaran.  Even early WOW had some memorable travel, before all the porting.

    Porting kills worlds.
    Too much porting turns an MMO into a lobby game.
    Dullahandeniter

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,806
    While I don't disagree with the "porting kills immersion" idea, what about the other aspect of meta-gaming that everyone seems to be okay with.  That is knowledge of the lands from sources outside the game -- spoiler sites, pre-launch testing and forums.  Where is the sense of exploration and immersion if you already know the route from Town A to Town B?  To me, that kills immersion as much, if not more, than porting.  Among the first things that spoiler sites put up have traditionally been high-level maps.  Getting lost is an important part of exploring, learning not to get lost is a skill that's even more important.  Both feed that sense of immersion.

    So, why is everyone against porting, but at the same time infer that it's okay for a newbie to know the route from one starting area to another?
    LegotheHutt

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • jimmywolfjimmywolf henderson, NVMember UncommonPosts: 145
    porting require no knowledge or effort, you can sit beg an go any were or if it predefined spots that portal you just go to them. again no real effort an it cuts out half the game since you never need to try.


    now if you must run threw areas with lvl 30+ mobs ( while your still level 1-10 ) places were your KOS ( kill on sight ) and no guarantee you be able make it with out dying. does it really matter if they found a maps online with routes on best chance to make it safe?  Waring them that mobs get stronger at night, who will KOS if you get too close even thu their npcs, how to reach any starting city regardless of race picked.


    yea portals and maps online are the same....




  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,343
    They may say "knowing is half the battle", but in EQ at lower levels, knowing the exact route from Qeynos to Freeport meant very little. The trip was filled with pitfalls. People talk about hugging zone walls etc, but mobs sometimes roamed near zone walls, on paths, near zone lines, not to mention other people's trains or even guards on opposing factions.

    Challenges of that sort have basically been removed from mmorpgs. Now it's almost mandatory that any unpredictability or inconvenience take place within predefined areas. It's pathetic.
    Kylerandcutbi001


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,433
    edited October 7
    Kyleran said:
    They could just let people choose where they wish to start in at character creation.

    Worry about which area is best would appeal mostly to the min max crowd, but if people believe that to be true Devs can put caps on them when necessary.


    Yes, I don't see how it would be game-breaking for immersion to allow players to start in areas that aren't indigenous to their race.  Or, at least, a few options.  I'm not so sure locking races to one specific starting area would be well-received.

    Maybe after a short familiarization period you got a quest that, when completed, allowed you the one-time option to join an NPC caravan that would transport you safely to another starter area.  That way, players that started the game with friends come join up immediately, but would, from then on, have to risk the perils of traveling across the landscape (alongside their friend).  That would seem to solve the problem of family/RL friends/couples starting and not being able to immediately play with one another without cheapening all travel.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    Kyleran

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,433
    To add to my previous post:

    If done well, it would also give new players the chance to see the immensity of the world by leading them through different landscapes without allowing them to stop and investigate at that moment.

    I fondly remember the days of DAoC horse rides and WoW flight paths as a newbie, taking in the landscape and knowing I wanted to come back one day to see more of this new, immense world I was catching glimpses of as I rode past or over.
    blueturtle13

    image
  • svannsvann san jose, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,993
    edited October 7
    I dont think players should get a free ride to another starting town or the ability to be born there.  Each race should start at their own town and help populate that area.  If you really want to join friends at another town then hoof it over there.  That should not be impossible, just difficult.  That extra effort is the penalty you pay for abandoning your own noobville.  That would also be an adventure.
    Post edited by svann on
    ScummKyleranGyva02
  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,787
    I think it is very important to have starting cities that are both difficult to get to and for people to get together from different places requiring a lot of time and dedication. This is because we need to have cities that are our own and not just a dot on the map that you can teleport to or just take like a few minutes to travel to. It needs to take more time and danger for there to be adventure that you made the run from Qeynos to Freeport. I am all for the difficulty of travelling and getting together or just roll your characters in closer cities to your mates.
    image
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,270
    svann said:
    I dont think players should get a free ride to another starting town or the ability to be born there.  Each race should start at their own town and help populate that area.  If you really want to join friends at another town then hoof it over there.  That should not be impossible, just difficult.  That extra effort is the penalty you pay for abandoning your own noobville.  That would also be an adventure.
    One of the "complaints" or "failings" many said about Vanguard was it had too many unique racial starting areas which kept players too segregated from each other, hence they created the starter island later to put everyone in the same place. 

    I never tried it, but from what I've read it was well received.

    Another Vanguard "failing" is people said it took too long to travel around the world, especially when trying to get together to group up for a dungeon.

    I don't recall much about my few months in Vanguard,  but I specifically remember this was a significant issue for me.

    I had rolled a character class that was challenging to solo (some sort of shapeshifter) so grouping was definitely the way to go once it got into the 20s.

    It wasn't real easy to find groups on my server, being lower populated and its faction based pvp ruleset meant 1/2 of its players were enemies.

    I had been struggling with the decision to stay with the game, all of the stability issues, strange server ruleset and my guildmates quitting every day saying it just wasn't fun. 

    But literally my last day logging in was when I tried to get a group together and it took all of us literally 40 minutes to travel to target dungeon.  We no sooner got there and someone's "Mom" called and they dropped.

    We spent 30 more minutes looking, found several players but they all were roughly 20 to 30 minutes away in travel time.

    Never did get inside that dungeon,  and I never played Vanguard again. 

    I did read however SOE added a few fast travel points to get around the world a bit more quickly to assist in grouping, and don't recall anyone really saying it was a terrible idea.

    I'll be surprised if this game totally eschews all fast travel options and like I said,  I can see no major downside to letting people roll the race and or class they like and choose what city to start in.

    Most of the people who are advocating for separation are doing it so others who want to can't.  They are free themselves to voluntarily start in their racial starter zone if they wish, and even fight there way to another ignoring any fast travel options between cities.

    But they don't want to do this unless they can force others to do the same which has always been a bit strange in these games.  

    "Its good for them and good for the game"

    Yes, sometimes,  used the argument myself,  but you have to ask if there's a real purpose or value to it.

    Otherwise I'll make an argument why waiting for and traveling on a boat for 15 minutes is a Great and Necessary thing.  ;)
    ZombieCat

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • deniterdeniter KouvolaMember UncommonPosts: 1,111
    Mendel said:
    While I don't disagree with the "porting kills immersion" idea, what about the other aspect of meta-gaming that everyone seems to be okay with.  That is knowledge of the lands from sources outside the game -- spoiler sites, pre-launch testing and forums.  Where is the sense of exploration and immersion if you already know the route from Town A to Town B?  To me, that kills immersion as much, if not more, than porting.  Among the first things that spoiler sites put up have traditionally been high-level maps.  Getting lost is an important part of exploring, learning not to get lost is a skill that's even more important.  Both feed that sense of immersion.

    So, why is everyone against porting, but at the same time infer that it's okay for a newbie to know the route from one starting area to another?
    Those people inhabit the lands, they are not aliens. I'm pretty sure you know how to travel from your home town to other towns nearby, or how to take a trip to the capital of your country. You don't get lost on a highway.

    Exploration comes into the picture when you leave the beaten path and go into the wild. That's where your adventures take place and where you will get lost if you don't know what you're doing.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,694
    edited October 7
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    Post edited by DMKano on
    MendelRexKushman
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,433
    svann said:
    I dont think players should get a free ride to another starting town or the ability to be born there.  Each race should start at their own town and help populate that area.  If you really want to join friends at another town then hoof it over there.  That should not be impossible, just difficult.  That extra effort is the penalty you pay for abandoning your own noobville.  That would also be an adventure.
    There's a difference between creating a challenging and vast world to explore, and needlessly preventing players from being able to reliably find one another, specifically in the early game.

    The best way to ensure Pantheon faceplants almost immediately is adding tedium for tedium's sake and actively working against groups of gamers being able to reliably find and get to one another in the game.

    I don't like the idea of insta-ports to dungeon entrances and the like either, but I also don't like engineering an incredibly demoralizing and tedious system for some underlying purist design philosophy.  Nothing is so black and white.
    deniterdcutbi001

    image
  • lancerxxlancerxx Phoenix, AZMember UncommonPosts: 32
    Dullahan said:
    They may say "knowing is half the battle", but in EQ at lower levels, knowing the exact route from Qeynos to Freeport meant very little. The trip was filled with pitfalls. People talk about hugging zone walls etc, but mobs sometimes roamed near zone walls, on paths, near zone lines, not to mention other people's trains or even guards on opposing factions.

    Challenges of that sort have basically been removed from mmorpgs. Now it's almost mandatory that any unpredictability or inconvenience take place within predefined areas. It's pathetic.
    G.I. Joe!
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,883
    svann said:
    I dont think players should get a free ride to another starting town or the ability to be born there.  Each race should start at their own town and help populate that area.  If you really want to join friends at another town then hoof it over there.  That should not be impossible, just difficult.  That extra effort is the penalty you pay for abandoning your own noobville.  That would also be an adventure.
    Actually I think that players should be able to pick a starting point no matter their starting race city.


    MadFrenchieKyleran



  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,985
    edited October 7
    This is one area i loved about Everquest and why i also enjoyed FFXI.We SHOULD be starting in a city,it makes sense or at least somewhere inhabitable.it also shows me the developer has put some work into their game,creates a hub for all the mmo players hangout/meet/trade whatever.

    it also gives players a sort of exciting start,you get to see shops,other players talk to npc's ,see some action/animation and feel part of something,instead of just dropping players down in the middle of nowhere like many games do.

    The flip side and still acceptable is what vanguard did,we were a captive on a ship.I loved the idea,i just wish it went a little further with some depth.
    Post edited by Wizardry on

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,985
    I don't want to sell the game short of just straight up copying a Wiz/Druid port ability.

    Why not utilize a sub class system,it gives players choice of how to build their character while still limiting a sub class.
    So an example would say the max level is 50.Ok so give Wiz's and Druid's perhaps level 20-25 porting so that a player could have  a Warrior/Druid and by time they hit level 40-50 they will acquire the use of a port ability,if they want to build their character that way.Then of course to keep from breaking the ability,you would have to actually go to your home to change your class setup, as on the fly does not work,it just dumbs the game down.

    They got it right in having to teleport to structures that act like receivers so i am not worried it would end up anything too simple.As well i hope abilities/spells like teleporting should be learned through quests/discoveries with some sort of randomness so that not all runs are the exact same.

    I really don't like stuff just given in games,i feel people should have to learn everything and prefer to  see no spell books of any kind.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,270
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.
    DMKanoMendel

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,694
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    You can rest assured before the game officially launches there will be all sorts of videos posted on how to safely travel to anywhere in the game including between starter cities, something not available in 1998.

    So no good  reason not to let them start where they wish,  even if there isn't portals between cities.


    Yep - guides will start as soon as pre-alpha starts.
    Mendel
  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,908
    A related issue is whether a player will need to stay where they start the game for some period of time due to the race or class specific quests offered there. If, when I started Everquest, I had run off to some far away city, I likely would not have done the Trueshot Longbow quest, which provided a quality weapon for a new ranger and was not available elsewhere. There are more issues to facilitating playing together than distance and travel dangers. That's why I thought it was an issue worth discussing. But then the "OMGZORZ YOU WANT EZ MODE" crowd took over. Thanks btw to those of you who stayed on topic and made thoughtful rather than condesceding posts.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,343
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Amathe said:
    I'm not sure what WoW has to do with my original post, other than for one guy just to insult people (while ironically calling them immature). 

    The issue is how, if at all, to accommodate players in different starting cities who know one another to be able to group together early on (in a game oriented to grouping). Doesn't have to be at level 1. But when might one reasonably expect to be able to make the journey to hook up with one's friends?

    Keep in mind that leveling is projected to be slow. Travel is expected to be slow. Naked corpse runs are a possibility. And there won't be a map (beyond whatever that very basic overview of the world thing is).  So it could be quite a while before a player could succeed at such a meet up. If that's the goal, looks like mission accomplished. But it is kind of sad, to me at least, not to be able to share the  new experience of a game with the people you want to play it with (unless you limit your race choices and play something or someone that isn't necessarily appealing to you). 

    As I'm typing, however, I do seem to recall players paying other players (with in game currency or goods) to serve as their guides and bodyguards while traveling. So that's one possibility. Except that when a game first starts out players tend to be poor and lack much to pay with. 
    One of the greatest memories for many people in EQ, was being able to get from one city to another, particular in the early levels. It was that very danger and inconvenience that made it seem more like a world than a game.


    This is true - but it was mostly dangerous due to players not knowing how to play. For many players EQ1 was their first online persistent world game and they were just in awe and mostly clueless on underlying systems.

    1. Failure to prep properly (no SoW buff)
    2. Failure to know danger spots (mob spawns, knowing safer routes etc...)
    3. Failure to zone layouts 


    If you had SoW, knew zone layouts, knew mob spawns and routes  - the above wouldn't be a problem - a level 1 could go anywhere in great safety


    Players who will play Pantheon likely have 15+ years of MMORPG experience - so even if it were like EQ1 - the mechancis, knowing how to prep right - learning the game world and mob spawns - mechanics - all of this will be known before the game even launches as all the maps/guides etc.. will already be out

    So those days of awe of simple things (due to a first experience and not knowing anything) are long gone

    The reason why games today feel like GAMES and not worlds - is because players are painfully aware of the underlying mechanics and will use them to "game the system" to their advantage starting from day1.

    The players have changed, and nothing can turn back the time on that.
    Not entirely true. Even knowing zone layouts doesn't prepare you for random roamers. Most players never know where exactly all mobs path. It also doesn't kill all the orcs and gnolls on the path to high keep that you basically cannot get past without invisibility. If there aren't players there killing those things, you can only hope your sow hasn't worn off and you know the exact path from one side to the other (I've run it hundreds, maybe thousands of times, and still take wrong turns).

    Point remains, it's that kind of unapologetic danger, along with being sent back to your city upon failure, that made EQ exciting. It was the one and only PvE mmo that could increase my heart rate.
    dcutbi001


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