What causes Star Citizen to have so much suspicion toward it?

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Comments

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILMember RarePosts: 3,068
    Personally, I think it has to do with their aggressive fund raising.  From expensive ships to flashy advertisements, ppl perceive it as unseemly at best and shady at worst.

    From what I can see, it is gonna happen, so vaporware it is not.  I'm looking forward to it, but am content to wait however long.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor TokyoMember UncommonPosts: 519
    edited September 19
    Some of the biggest failures and disappointments of the games this site is about have come from people known for making great games. I don't know of someone who has managed to make lightning strike twice yet, so for me his previous accomplishments mean nothing. I look at how much money they have spent, how they run their business, and what they are promising. I'm not even really interested in what they are promising as the final product. And I'm an SF guy. I don't see the fun. Of course I don't hate it, I'm on the opposite side wondering why so many people love it. 
    Post edited by esc-joconnor on
  • frostymugfrostymug Galveston, TXMember UncommonPosts: 355
    MaxBacon said:
    If you're going niche, the measuring stick is mainstream.  It's either got mainstream appeal or it's got niche appeal.  SC has niche appeal.

    For such an endeavor, 2.1 million players would, quite frankly, be incredibly disappointing, and would likely result in a huge financial strain on CIG to continue work on the project.  Especially considering a 3rd of those players will have already given CIG their cash and CIG will have already spent pretty much all of it completing the title.

    Hell, D:OS2 has over half a million, and that game's the very definition of niche.  It also cost a fraction of what SC is costing to deliver.
    I am underplaying those numbers for a safer expectation but they will easily double the number of people who own it, especially with/after the release and the usual impact that has on direct copies sales only (the rest is to be seen I'd wait for the implementation of the relevant revenue systems in-game first).
    You make a claim that my point is not moot while bringing up something completely different that the moot point reference was not related to in any way. I think all your spin has you dizzy...

    Even if it sells 5 million copies, which it won't if it gets to the point that someone else has to complete it, it will still be a massive failure. The Adventures of Pluto Nash: The Video Game.

    The amount of money already involved. The fact that someone would have to effectively buy it out to complete it. Then spend x amount to actually complete it. Then deal with all the refunds, bitchy people, and negativity based on what would end up getting removed to actually complete it. 

    This entire point is a tiny aspect of my post and neither cause nor effect for my personal skepticism at this point anyways. and, yes, THAT POINT is largely moot. Because I don't think CR would relinquish control anyways and I don't think anyone would bail him out while letting him maintain any control.

    --------------------------------------------------

    Niche [niCH] adj. denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.

    You kinda have to compare it to mainstream by definition. Or accept that it is indeed niche. The fact is that no space sims of much worth existed for a number of years. None. They all popped up around the same time and people threw money at them like crazy. Mostly the older generation. Same thing happens when the next relatively groundbreaking flight sim gets released.

    I still suspect, right or wrong, that a majority of the crowd that was looking for something like SC already has purchased it. There are some on the fence that may buy the starter pack eventually, but there isn't a huge untapped market. Even with FPS added on. Shooters wanna shoot. The sim part only gets in the way. Lobby, matchmaking, and a handful of maps and they are good. FPSs barely even put in a campaign mode anymore. SC isn't going to pull that crowd from what they know. On the contrary, the FPS aspect is most likely going to be a minimally used mini game distraction to the hardcore fans who mostly want the space sim.

    In the end I personally think SC will do well to get roughly the same sales numbers as E:D. They both play to the same crowd. A crowd that will likely own both, if both release.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,598
    edited September 19
    frostymug said:
    In the end I personally think SC will do well to get roughly the same sales numbers as E:D. They both play to the same crowd. A crowd that will likely own both, if both release.
    Those numbers are already impressive for the genre really, SC retains a potential with a widen mechanic in character/FPS that I think they will use (allows them for try to aim at the appeal games like the Star Wars games have, still obviously more sim), then SQ42 that for me is the biggest card CIG holds on marketing; the rest lies within the MMO continuous dev, both before, at and after release. But mind the "profitability" is not driven by just selling the copy, as any MMO the proper revenue comes after people buy in.

    frostymug said:
    This entire point is a tiny aspect of my post and neither cause nor effect for my personal skepticism at this point anyways. and, yes, THAT POINT is largely moot. Because I don't think CR would relinquish control anyways and I don't think anyone would bail him out while letting him maintain any control.
    The thing that matters to that is the money, not really anything else; if it proves profitable ("free" millions per month) then that interest will undoubtfully be there, less risk.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,509
    I think the reason ppl hate this game, has to do with the haters and the fans, way too emotionally invested in a game in alpha, which leads to people trolling/hating the game lol
    I think many of the people labeled as "haters" are simply people who voiced concern over certain things that were said or done.  I myself would love to play the game as pitched and was it in from day one for $125.  I dont "hate" the game or the concept but I have seen many things that dont add up or are totally opposite what was originally pitched back in 2012, things like:

    1. The game was pitched as releasing the core gameplay and then adding new features as it went along but they are working on things that are not core gameplay.  Why have someone design a mining ship when mining is not in the game yet?  Why not have that person design plants and animals for planets that you would mine on?  It is like they are building the car before the wheels.  And poop mechanics?  Why work on that in alpha?  That is not a core system or anything that really needed to be created.

    2. No publisher which would reduce unneeded overhead but then building studios all over the world and flying around to each one all the time which seems like a lot of unneeded overhead to me.

    3. SQ42 was pitched as a co-op experience but then years later we are told that would ruin the experience.  I don't know what kind of friends Chris has but mine would not ruin the experience

    4. Missing every date given and actually lying about stuff.  The space doors were not simply two wooden doors and a garage door opener.  Star Marine was not weeks away when we were told it was back in 2015, it was not even close and SQ42 was not launched at the end of 2016, in fact we have not seen anything from it as of mid-2017.

    I could go on but why bother, it just labels me a hater because I dont think Chris Roberts is perfect.
    ShaighKyleran
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 77
    Roberts should be put in a room with only a hole in the door so he can submit his design/game ideas then have a good manager develop the game understanding what can be made.

    He has great ideas with a mix of the impossible. He just doesn't have the knowledge or understanding what will or won't work in the here and now!
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,147
    ScotchUp said:
    Roberts should be put in a room with only a hole in the door so he can submit his design/game ideas then have a good manager develop the game understanding what can be made.

    He has great ideas with a mix of the impossible. He just doesn't have the knowledge or understanding what will or won't work in the here and now!
    Agreed. Chris Roberts is the type of person who needs a publisher standing over him and telling him what he is allowed to do.

    The only problem being is that he harped on about how publishers are so evil and whipped his fan base into a frenzy over it no publisher is going to want to touch this project so CR is on his own and wont get a bail out.
    ScotchUp
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,447
    Any time there is that kind of money involved there is going to be suspicion also.
    Octagon7711
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko JohannesburgMember EpicPosts: 6,574
    It's just another manifestation of "Tall Poppy Syndrome"... :D
    MadFrenchie
  • Turrican187Turrican187 WernigerodeMember UncommonPosts: 656
    Kefo said:
    ScotchUp said:
    Roberts should be put in a room with only a hole in the door so he can submit his design/game ideas then have a good manager develop the game understanding what can be made.

    He has great ideas with a mix of the impossible. He just doesn't have the knowledge or understanding what will or won't work in the here and now!
    Agreed. Chris Roberts is the type of person who needs a publisher standing over him and telling him what he is allowed to do.

    The only problem being is that he harped on about how publishers are so evil and whipped his fan base into a frenzy over it no publisher is going to want to touch this project so CR is on his own and wont get a bail out.
    That's not the problem, a publisher does not care if they are called evil by someone.
    IMHO the reasons to scare a publisher off:

    A publisher cares how much work is there to be done for a project and to fullfill all presold assets they have to work at least 5 more years on the game. this Facething is simple stuff, MAYA exports with blendshapes and the facestuff is hooking up there very modular, different protocol > nobrainer. But all the other stuff and every system interacts with every system. Like Room system interacts with player inventory, Ship Assets (internal complex hitboxes else you could have corners where you can breathe when their shouldn't be air) and environment and if this is not enough (and I hope they are not doing it) realistic air flow. this is just the room system and there are 100s of systems not implemented yet and everything has to go over the network.

    On top of that it is almost impossible to balance out 30+ character classes (ship hulls) in a mmorpg setting and every $$$ sold assets makes this more complicated.
    Games like LoL live with the dynamic of inbalance because every class can just exist once per side so that it is a rock, paper, scissor, lizard, spock setting but in SC we can have mass inbalance (a swarm Ub0r Ships) and people paid actual real money for their Dream and mostly don't like to have the experience of beeing gimped in their $500,- asset.

    The Bugsmasher episodes showed a concerning amount of nested queries in the code which screams for at least a year of optimisation pass. Remember every "If" instruction is killing the CPU flow and the code they showed in their shows nested them multiple times which will lead to 100% core load. And it is concerning that sometimes in their shows a bug gets "magically" fixed or fixed by workaround.

    And while we are at performance, every Ship has multiple layers, meshes and hitboxes. a Ship in SC alone is using up 20+ Character spaces of other games in terms of performance every single physic object that can be dropped needs to be calculated and this would be true if they are doing fake 64bit like all other devs do but they are doing real 64Bit (which I still can not believe cause its a killer) so imagine a simple cup in a ship needs to have a position and a rotation that means 2^63 * 6 = 55.340.232.221.128.654.848 these are the total states this cup can have in comparsion to 32bit (2^31 * 6 = 12.884.901.888) these are 4.294.967.296 times more states this cup can have. If we optimize it, the cup alone anywhere in the universe in 64bit uses as much network performance as 20 players in other games. Now place it on a buggy that drives in a ship while the ship is leaving a rotating and orbiting planet ... in 64bit which is calculated CPU and needs to be shoved over to GPU and network.

    They are developing in hyper realism before finding the fun with multiple companies in different countries. When you play SC you may have minutes of loading and processing time, surprise the devs too and it takes even longer as long as the game is in edit mode. company internal traffic to upload und download stuff takes time too. My best guess is that the devs use 1-2 hours a day with just starting the game mode and up- and downloading stuff from the main branch. this also leads to errors because your colleague is just uploading stuff (i.e. changed mesh) that may change stuff you are uploading (i.e. physic of mesh). Because of the nature of game development this stuff is not communicateable (though sure you can communicate with all devs that could have changed something and set up your JIRA that way but it will become too complex to overview in a very short time).
    Testing gameplay with a 2000 Polygon modell is easy and fast, you get results in a good timely manner you can update and add gameplay stuff very easy. testing with a 2.000.000 Polygon model is frustrating long loading times of the editor, refresh rates not rendering fast enough leads to errors, low framerates leads to confusion > Player falls through mesh could it now be hole in the mesh, physic engine bug or additional system bug.
    Keep it simple until you find the fun and have all your gameplay systems in place then upscale polys and textures.

    I could go on for hours ... assets Z-Fighting ... physics jittering ...
    You paid for a designer villa in monaco but got a tree house build by a 12 year old with one arm (though with a lot of stuff tackled on ... but don't touch they may fall off)
    KefoMadFrenchieShaigh

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 6,260
    I think SC has good numbers now because the game is still in development.  People who want to PvP hear good plans about PvP, people who want to PvE mostly hear good plans about being able to PvE, people who want to explore hear good plans about exploration.  Balance issues are only starting to be dealt with.  Once a commitment is made to balance actual gameplay you will see a lot of changes in the player base as people who focused on certain aspects of the game realize it's not going to happen, which to a degree is what is going on now, a lot of early backers realizing this is not the same game they signed up for.

    ED has launched and players know exactly what type of game they're playing when it comes to PvP, PvE, and exploration.  Players can quote what CIG say they will do to balance things but what Devs plan and what they end up doing may not be the same thing.  
    Arglebargle

    "Change is the only constant."


  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,147
    That's why I love your posts @Turrican187 cause you actually explain things. I mean you could be full of shit but dammit you sound confident when you do it lol
    Turrican187Octagon7711ScotchUpStjerneoddKyleran
  • Turrican187Turrican187 WernigerodeMember UncommonPosts: 656
    MaxBacon said:
    frostymug said:
    I think there is a group, but it isn't that large. The space sim crowd isn't that large even if no fans of the genre had already bought in
    You talk a "small niche", yet Elite Dangerous that is more niche than SC (considering the wider audience SC reaches with FPS and related stuff) has realistically at least twice more people who own it than SC does.

    The point is not moot, it's very real.
    I want to play a spacegame !!yay!! ... but wait I have to do FPS as well oh well ok I can live with that ... but but to minmax I have to play a survival game? ...

    SC is becoming a Space Survival FPS farmville golfswing game. If I don't like FPS I won't play SC. If I don't like survival I won't play SC ... more core games are scaring people off. They won't get all CoD, BF or Overwatch players into the game because they have a FPS mode.
    They make it more niche the broader the gameplay spectrum is because a player wants to be the hero and wants to get fast in - fast out of game these days in the gamemode they like. To introduce every possible game genre in your game makes it more likely to fail.

    Spacegenre / SciFi Fans - FPS hater - Survival game hater.
    A ARK player won't drop his bucket to play survival game in a space sim if he doesn't like space sims.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,598
    edited September 19
    And while we are at performance, every Ship has multiple layers, meshes and hitboxes. a Ship in SC alone is using up 20+ Character spaces of other games in terms of performance every single physic object that can be dropped needs to be calculated and this would be true if they are doing fake 64bit like all other devs do but they are doing real 64Bit (which I still can not believe cause its a killer) so imagine a simple cup in a ship needs to have a position and a rotation that means 2^63 * 6 = 55.340.232.221.128.654.848 these are the total states this cup can have in comparsion to 32bit (2^31 * 6 = 12.884.901.888) these are 4.294.967.296 times more states this cup can have. If we optimize it, the cup alone anywhere in the universe in 64bit uses as much network performance as 20 players in other games. Now place it on a buggy that drives in a ship while the ship is leaving a rotating and orbiting planet ... in 64bit which is calculated CPU and needs to be shoved over to GPU and network.
    You run under such much assumption of things in that front.

    Like the 64bit from what is told, they are only using 64bit on what specifically needs to be 64bit, say things like AI, Physics are not because they don't need to be. Then the "double precision" talks.

    You'll see Space Engineers has moved to 64-bit precision, SC calls for double-precision.

    Spacegenre / SciFi Fans - FPS hater - Survival game hater.
    A ARK player won't drop his bucket to play survival game in a space sim if he doesn't like space sims.
    The only proper genre SC approaches now that wasn't planned is Survival, the FPS / Space was there, the planet-side itself is not a new genre is just a new type of playground.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • Turrican187Turrican187 WernigerodeMember UncommonPosts: 656
    edited September 19
    MaxBacon said:
    And while we are at performance, every Ship has multiple layers, meshes and hitboxes. a Ship in SC alone is using up 20+ Character spaces of other games in terms of performance every single physic object that can be dropped needs to be calculated and this would be true if they are doing fake 64bit like all other devs do but they are doing real 64Bit (which I still can not believe cause its a killer) so imagine a simple cup in a ship needs to have a position and a rotation that means 2^63 * 6 = 55.340.232.221.128.654.848 these are the total states this cup can have in comparsion to 32bit (2^31 * 6 = 12.884.901.888) these are 4.294.967.296 times more states this cup can have. If we optimize it, the cup alone anywhere in the universe in 64bit uses as much network performance as 20 players in other games. Now place it on a buggy that drives in a ship while the ship is leaving a rotating and orbiting planet ... in 64bit which is calculated CPU and needs to be shoved over to GPU and network.
    You run under such much assumption of things in that front.

    Like the 64bit from what is told, they are only using 64bit on what specifically needs to be 64bit, say things like AI, Physics are not because they don't need to be. Then the "double precision" talks.

    You'll see Space Engineers has moved to 64-bit precision, SC calls for double-precision.

    Spacegenre / SciFi Fans - FPS hater - Survival game hater.
    A ARK player won't drop his bucket to play survival game in a space sim if he doesn't like space sims.
    The only proper genre SC approaches now that wasn't planned is Survival, the FPS / Space was there, the planet-side itself is not a new genre is just a new type of playground.
    Space engineers has a 64Bit client now ... it was on 32Bit before this has nothing to do with internal functions this is just the memory allocation.

    Star Citizen (is it now 64Bit internally or not?) is calculating its function in 64bit we had hours of conversation before where you defended the 64bit grids you know ...

    Double Precision usually means 64bit operations, though KSP is using a 2times 32bit matrix that leads to 33Bit (this is how it is usually done, KSP was not the first). To get the matrix of american sextillion and 1cm precision a 3 times 32Bit (34 Bit) would suffer, but everyone talks about their 64bit matrix when it comes to SC. From an interview from 2014 CIG devs talked about a 33Bit matrix but that was before the scope increase.

    And to have an object in a 64Bit matrix you need 6 64Bit floats (XYZ Position/Rotation) but this is the minimum to have for rendering, physics and a unique position but counts for everything (AFAIK the bullets are objects too not simple raycasts)
    Post edited by Turrican187 on
    MadFrenchie

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • Panther2103Panther2103 Edmonds, WAMember RarePosts: 3,557
    For me the reasoning behind suspicion towards this title stems from the insane amount of features they plan and how aggressive the fundraising was. 

    Chris Roberts team has basically allowed for any suggestion to be planned to be implemented, and to me that seems like it's him trying to get money from every possible source. I'm not saying he doesn't have every intention on having all of these features, but I'm pretty sure the more he adds the less likely this product will be what anyone expects. 

    It's insane what they want this game to have right now. As far as I can tell it would be the first game to have this many systems in it ever, and the fact that they can get thousands out of people at the drop of a hat with a new ship announcement is insane to me. 

    I want the game to come out how people expect it and how they plan it. At this point I'm just thinking it's getting too big and cumbersome to ever come out.
    FrodoFragins
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member RarePosts: 837
    99% Ignorance about game development by the gamers 1% troll's with nothing better to do imo.
    MadFrenchieKyleranTalonsin
  • hfztthfztt GlostrupMember RarePosts: 1,257
    Dear OP, if you are unable to form your own opinion with the wealth of (mis)information for and against, I do not see how another pointless thread is going to fix that...

    Move on. Nothing to see here.
  • sgelsgel Member RarePosts: 1,597
    Babuinix said:
    99% Ignorance about game development by the gamers 1% troll's with nothing better to do imo.
    Yup.
    0% suspicion is justified.
    Not a cult.
    KefoKyleran

    ..Cake..

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupMember RarePosts: 1,257
    I wouldn't know where to start. There are so many things about this project, its fans and Chris Roberts in particular that one could talk about as the reason for all the drama that surrounds this game.

    Perhaps the easiest thing is to look at the results of 5 years and $150+ million...



    I saw that whole thing. it is very entertaining.

    A little too much so. I do not buy for one second that this is his first time back in a long time. He knows exactly what to do to make the game break, which unfortunately takes some of the edge of the thing.

    If you are going to slap SC silly, at least be honest and tell what you are doing and not act all surprised.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,509
    hfztt said:
    I wouldn't know where to start. There are so many things about this project, its fans and Chris Roberts in particular that one could talk about as the reason for all the drama that surrounds this game.

    Perhaps the easiest thing is to look at the results of 5 years and $150+ million...



    I saw that whole thing. it is very entertaining.

    A little too much so. I do not buy for one second that this is his first time back in a long time. He knows exactly what to do to make the game break, which unfortunately takes some of the edge of the thing.

    If you are going to slap SC silly, at least be honest and tell what you are doing and not act all surprised.
    The guy didnt even know how to use the ladder to get into the ship.  I guess we all see what we want to see.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,741
    edited September 20
    Feature creep, shady lead in CR, not halting funding and settling on a truly viable game to deliver, bug filled demos and gameplay, poor prioritization, nepotism ...

    His dream is great, his ability to achieve it sucks

    As far as what I'm seeing of people requesting refunds, a lot are mentioning how the game is switching from becoming a space sim to a real life sim.  I'd say that's a 100% valid issue.

    In my opinion, the game had plenty of ships years ago.  Yes they are a money maker, but do you know what else is a money maker?  Releasing a great game.


    Post edited by FrodoFragins on
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