SC's Subsumption #nobullshit

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  • rertezrertez Member UncommonPosts: 141
    edited September 17
    MaxBacon said:

    rertez said:
    While I agree with your point, note that EQN's emergent AI is the technology driving the mobs' combat behavior in Guild Wars 2's Heart of Thorns expansion and its later raid content aswell. According to the devs' statements after EQN got cancelled the AI part occured to be completely doable and the project was dropped due to completely different reasons.

    For those who are interested in how the AI solutions mentioned above work:
    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1021848/Building-a-Better-Centaur-AI
    GW2's HoT is emergent AI? I Don't think so, not on that tier of what drives the events and the content generation that comes from their AI, that's the scripted chain that runs in a loop, perhaps something more related to combat?
    Yes, as I said it's combat related and it drives the decision making of NPCs. It's the kind of technology that the handful of game AI specialists around the world take years or rather decades to research and develop. That's why ANet contracted Dave Mark to implement Intrinsic Algorithm's (Mark's company that formerly worked on EQNext) AI solutions into GW2's NPC decision making. It's the very same technology that was called "Emergent AI" during the development of EQN.

    Judging by the contents of the video you linked SC's decision making process works based on a very similar if not identical AI solution to what GW2's NPCs have been using in the expansion content. Game AI is not something that grows on trees or at least it's not something anyone can develop from scratch within 5-6 years so I guess CIG've been contracting a third party AI specialist to have a working solution in SC and SQ42.
    Post edited by rertez on
    ExcessionMaxBaconMrMelGibson
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,119
    Excession said:
    You can link all the screenshot's you like of the 3.0 production schedule, nothing in it has ever been wrong.....
    Nothing that was stated as complete in the schedules for previous updates hasn't got to release. So yeah, I'm not going to assume otherwise just because you say so.
    Excession
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,033
    MaxBacon said:
    Excession said:
    You can link all the screenshot's you like of the 3.0 production schedule, nothing in it has ever been wrong.....
    Nothing that was stated as complete in the schedules for previous updates hasn't got to release. So yeah, I'm not going to assume otherwise just because you say so.
    Not like they can just say "whoops we had to cut it for this release because some bugs cropped up" right?

    Until it's in backers hands to play with, test and see for themselves maybe you should save the celebratory pat on the back.
    ExcessionMaxBaconMrMelGibsonWalkinGlenn
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,119
    rertez said:
    Yes, as I said it's combat related and it drives the decision making of NPCs. It's the kind of technology that the handful of game AI specialists around the world take years or rather decades to research and develop. That's why ANet contracted Dave Mark to implement Intrinsic Algorithm's (Mark's company that formerly worked on EQNext) AI solutions into GW2's NPC decision making. It's the very same technology that was called "Emergent AI" during the development of EQN.

    Judging by the contents of the video you linked SC's decision making process works based on a very similar if not identical AI solution to what GW2's NPCs have been using in the expansion content. Game AI is not something that grows on trees or at least it's not something anyone can develop from scratch within 5-6 years so I guess CIG've been contracting a third party AI specialist to have a working solution in SC and SQ42.
    Yeah, combat is the most frequent use, here it's really more about having that driving the content generation, it shows to be scaled, it goes from that macro where it's managing content generation, missions and the AI that comes with it, to manage the NPC itself and its traits, up to the conversation logic. This seems to be an in-house dev, the system they call subsumption is what handles it for both games from what was said.
    Excession
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,119
    edited September 17
    Kefo said:
    Not like they can just say "whoops we had to cut it for this release because some bugs cropped up" right?

    Until it's in backers hands to play with, test and see for themselves maybe you should save the celebratory pat on the back.
    Again, something completed in the schedule has not been cut from the release before, I'm not going to assume otherwise just because you say so.

    "But...  But... But it's a possibility you can't ignore!" < There's a possibility we might all die tomorrow, I'm not going to change my assumption I will be just fine when I wake up tomorrow because of it.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    KyleranExcessionConstantineMerusGdemami
  • spankybusspankybus Orlando, FLMember UncommonPosts: 1,340
    MaxBacon said:
    btdt said:
    As my brother always used to say, anything can be done if you throw enough money at it... the question is, whether it worth it?


    Ultimately the game has to be worth playing, everything else is just window dressing.  Sure the graphics are stunning... but the game is boring as hell.  Sure the combat feels glorious... but the game is totally unbalanced.  Sure the story is outstanding... but there's no replayablity.

    This stuff is all window dressing to disguise the fact that the game itself, lacks something at it's core.  Back in the day you played games for hours on end, not because of the quality of the graphics, dynamic events, et al... but because it was entertaining.  Some of the simplest designs and implementations are far more engaging than the most detailed designs.  

    As my professor used to say, God is in the design, the Devil is in the details.  Details don't make the design and the design doesn't make the details.  It's a careful balance between the two.  Your brain filters out a lot of the details, to get to the root design.  Spending an inordinate amount of time, energy, and money on something the brain will treat as background noise, doesn't make it better.

    Hence why some games don't seem to change the formula up... they already know you're going to filter it out in short order.
    I think it is worth it.

    ...
    Just a thought: You aren't qualified to answer the question, 'Is it worth it?'

    Given how much they still have left to do, if they have 80 million remaining for their current total available funds...maybe it's worth it. I seriously doubt they have that much revenue available.

    They are burning cash across four studios and 400+ employees....one studio located in Los Angeles, one of the most expensive locations in the country. I've seen a few comments that suggest Frankfurt isn't much cheaper, but will differ to my more knowledgeable citizens.

    To assess if something is worth it, you need to know the whole picture, which cig isn't sharing.

    Having said that, the better question might be, 'What are you willing to give up to have X?'

    Are you willing to give up 100 systems available at launch for this? People who signed up purely for a space dog fighter will likely answer 'Hell No!'

    This game has and will continue to make these kinds of trade-offs, without backer input. It has to, or it will go broke. Problem is CR is a uncompromising perfectionist....they make the absolute worst program managers. They think everything is worth it...and we either get a game was a crapload of watered-down systems...or the project goes broke. My hope is that Erin Roberts is driving a lot of this train. He has a proven track record, at least.

    so far, the continuous stream of ships sails has help to keep them ahead of the Revenue burn. But as time goes and no product appears, more and more backers are putting their wallets away. In short, this process is finite.

    having said all that, I hope this works as advertised as I literally have money riding in it. Every time you hear about a game with really advanced AI.], it ends up getting scrapped. Oblivion, Skyrim and Radiant AI...ring a bell? Well that system was scrapped because the more freedom the NPCs had, the more they ran amuck. Minotaurs would saluted entire villages because they 'threatened' a unicorn nearby...making the game unfinishable lol some great stories from that system are out there.
    Arglebargle

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    www.spankybus.com
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    -Writer
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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,119
    spankybus said:
    Just a thought: You aren't qualified to answer the question, 'Is it worth it?'


    To assess if something is worth it, you need to know the whole picture, which cig isn't sharing.

    Having said that, the better question might be, 'What are you willing to give up to have X?'
    I understand superficially enough this matter of tech stuff. It's the type of thing that if it's not done now, it won't get done later because it's underlying for so many other features and especially content (that's why it's so much easier to convert only 16 missions and the basic AI/shopping stuff now).

    So is understandable that there is a pressure to get the tech to go as far as it possibly can go before adding too much mechanics and content over it.

    The "Is it worth it?" question is where we need to consider that a side of SC, there is SQ42, it would be expectable that this system suits the AI needs of the SP campaign, then it makes sense they can use the same AI base in both. (SQ42's feature slide where this is mentioned: https://i.imgur.com/nsyeT7r.jpg )

    They could have made an approach like GW2, that is capable to provide the sense of one "living and breathing world" via heavily scripts in a loop, but the end of the day I like the approach they're taking being a fan of the type of AI of The Sims that I wish to see in more games.
    Excession
  • PigozzPigozz CMember UncommonPosts: 854
    AI doesnt make of break this game..Its the sandbox tools which are essential - afterall the freedom of actions and consequences is the reason Eve is the most popular space sim - and right now SC is implementing a lot of sandboxy tools
    Screw AI, the best MMOs had the most basic AI because the games were made by the raw freedom a player had
    I rather have more planets with different gravity, atmospheres causing interesting ship controls etc because these kind of things are what will make the game fun via some random shenannighans, not some scripted AI mission
    Another thing is that RSI needs to implement these properly and not as a completely unstable mess like was shown in the gamescom clip :/

    MMOs played chronologically:
    Runescape,Lineage II, WoW,Tabula Rasa, AoC,Eve Online,Guild Wars, Rift(beta only),SWTOR(beta only),Star Trek Online
    Most fun: Tabula Rasa
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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,119
    edited September 22
    Pigozz said:
    AI doesnt make of break this game..Its the sandbox tools which are essential - afterall the freedom of actions and consequences is the reason Eve is the most popular space sim - and right now SC is implementing a lot of sandboxy tools
    Screw AI, the best MMOs had the most basic AI because the games were made by the raw freedom a player had
    I rather have more planets with different gravity, atmospheres causing interesting ship controls etc because these kind of things are what will make the game fun via some random shenannighans, not some scripted AI mission
    Another thing is that RSI needs to implement these properly and not as a completely unstable mess like was shown in the gamescom clip :/
    It's something specific to the SC case in here.

    SC is set upon Sandbox sure the whole thing will fall in whatever you want to do you may it's not linear content/progression, but it's the AI who is feeding all that content. You think AI you think NPCs but here it's the actual mission content, its generation, and most importantly, economy.

    The whole idea behind SC's AI was indeed things as, say a factory creating cargo transport/trade/escort missions to be able to manufacture missiles, AI will generate missions related to that and then it comes to, if the missions aren't being taken/failing the resources either fail to reach the factory and missile production is harmed, or are being raided in their transport to the places they'll be sold. The result would be... stock is low, missiles will be more expensive in that system, say impacting repairing/restocking in that system.

    That's quite the goals for it, but it shows how deeply it would tie to content and economy, so it becomes of greater importance
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,119
    Related to Subsumption and a good example of how it drives some game systems, this on the ATC (Air Traffic Controller) where the NPCs provide that service themselves:


    GdemamiExcession
  • CalavryCalavry GilmoreMember UncommonPosts: 47
    The NPC's in Morrowind had lives. Bought a whole lot of in game problems with it too.

    Sorry the shop you needed is shut, come back in business hours if you need to talk to NPC shop owner etc.
  • RingLdr77RingLdr77 Member CommonPosts: 8
    I am worried about an AI controlled economy as nobody has gotten a game economy right yet, so somehow scripting AI into is doesn't seem like a good idea. It's like the blind leading the blind.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 7,984
    RingLdr77 said:
    I am worried about an AI controlled economy as nobody has gotten a game economy right yet, so somehow scripting AI into is doesn't seem like a good idea. It's like the blind leading the blind.
    Would you also call the game economy in "EVE Online" as "not right yet" ?

    It is also a mixture of player and AI (=developer) control and - to me - seems to overall work well for the last 14 years,


    Have fun
    GdemamiConstantineMerus
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthMember EpicPosts: 4,223
    Sim Citizen! \o/
    Mind you, I say that as someone who's played the hell out of The Sims, so that's not a bad thing for me.

    The only concern I have with more advanced NPC AI that's just there for flavor is... how will it affect the overhead? The main reason other MMOs don't do stuff like this isn't because the devs are incompetent, but to cut down on the number of scripts running simultaneously. Sometimes a nifty feature just isn't worth the load it adds to the game.

    I remember The Sims getting laggy a few times when there was way too much stuff going on, and that's just a single player game. At least it won't be a concern during combat, since we'll be away from hubs where they're all moving around. BDO also does this to a smaller degree - the NPCs go about their daily lives, and go to different locations in the mornings and in the evenings, and it's probably part of what makes people complain about lag in the big cities so much. That, plus a gazillion players doing their own thing of course. xD
    ConstantineMerus

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  • Turrican187Turrican187 WernigerodeMember UncommonPosts: 633
    Yay BDO :)

    Azaron_Nightblade

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYMember RarePosts: 985
    Erillion said:
    RingLdr77 said:
    I am worried about an AI controlled economy as nobody has gotten a game economy right yet, so somehow scripting AI into is doesn't seem like a good idea. It's like the blind leading the blind.
    Would you also call the game economy in "EVE Online" as "not right yet" ?

    It is also a mixture of player and AI (=developer) control and - to me - seems to overall work well for the last 14 years,


    Have fun
    Isn't Eve's economy totally player driven? If its player driven, how is it AI controlled?

    sorry, response failed.

    Have fun
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthMember EpicPosts: 4,223
    Yay BDO :)

    LOL yes, there's a few of those.
    They discontinued that with future content though. It's not exactly popular.

    It's nice enough the first few times, but it gets obnoxious pretty quickly when you need a specific NPC and you get to wait 20-30 min before they return at dawn. xD

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    Feel free to send me a message if you want a guest pass to try Black Desert Online as well!

  • Turrican187Turrican187 WernigerodeMember UncommonPosts: 633
    Yay BDO :)

    LOL yes, there's a few of those.
    They discontinued that with future content though. It's not exactly popular.

    It's nice enough the first few times, but it gets obnoxious pretty quickly when you need a specific NPC and you get to wait 20-30 min before they return at dawn. xD
    At least they leave a sign :D

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 7,984
    Erillion said:
    RingLdr77 said:
    I am worried about an AI controlled economy as nobody has gotten a game economy right yet, so somehow scripting AI into is doesn't seem like a good idea. It's like the blind leading the blind.
    Would you also call the game economy in "EVE Online" as "not right yet" ?

    It is also a mixture of player and AI (=developer) control and - to me - seems to overall work well for the last 14 years,


    Have fun
    Isn't Eve's economy totally player driven? If its player driven, how is it AI controlled?

    sorry, response failed.

    Have fun
    You do not know a lot about EVE, me seems ....


    Have fun
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,672
    I'd rather have a fully functional and groundbreaking space combat sim ...
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,672
    MaxBacon said:
    How about we get to see it working in game and then we can talk about whether "more games should have a system like this"?

    Talk is cheep.
    It's a design ofc, but most do not even try to do one MMO with one different AI system, they just go with the classic design the others do. This has been talked about since the day this game was pitched, this took quite a long time until the AI starting to translate from design to implementation.

    Though I meant the question more related to "the sims" like AI, I'll edit that bit.
    Most companies that try making massive advancements in games end up abandoning them before launch.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,119
    Most companies that try making massive advancements in games end up abandoning them before launch.
    If it was easy everyone would be doing it now wouldn't they? xD

    See The Sims 3, one great tech take at it yet they gave up mid-way on it (as it has issues, the hugely known optimization matter and other bits), then they decide to do the 4 and cut it back so much in TS4 it literally ends up as a "meh".

    It's that nature, when you go through "uncharted waters" in development it's by trial and error until it works, some have more maneuverability than others to risk such (publishers obviously hate those risks so it's uncommon to see such happen in large-scale/budget projects).
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,672
    MaxBacon said:
    Most companies that try making massive advancements in games end up abandoning them before launch.
    If it was easy everyone would be doing it now wouldn't they? xD

    See The Sims 3, one great tech take at it yet they gave up mid-way on it (as it has issues, the hugely known optimization matter and other bits), then they decide to do the 4 and cut it back so much in TS4 it literally ends up as a "meh".

    It's that nature, when you go through "uncharted waters" in development it's by trial and error until it works, some have more maneuverability than others to risk such (publishers obviously hate those risks so it's uncommon to see such happen in large-scale/budget projects).
    I just don't think crowdfunded games are the place to try to test all of these things.
    MadFrenchie
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,119
    I just don't think crowdfunded games are the place to try to test all of these things.
    I would agree, but then again, where are the big publishers taking risks? The money speaks louder, and with established money formulas taking big risks is a no-go.

    The SC crowdfund speaks for itself, I don't see something on the scale (the resembling AAA) and ambition of this project would ever happen (especially in this genre) without crowdfunding.

    Them taking this approach deff has its negatives, the big focus put on exploring R&D in many things drains a lot of time budget.
  • MinscMinsc Burford, ONMember UncommonPosts: 1,325
    MaxBacon said:
    Most companies that try making massive advancements in games end up abandoning them before launch.
    If it was easy everyone would be doing it now wouldn't they? xD

    See The Sims 3, one great tech take at it yet they gave up mid-way on it (as it has issues, the hugely known optimization matter and other bits), then they decide to do the 4 and cut it back so much in TS4 it literally ends up as a "meh".

    It's that nature, when you go through "uncharted waters" in development it's by trial and error until it works, some have more maneuverability than others to risk such (publishers obviously hate those risks so it's uncommon to see such happen in large-scale/budget projects).
    I just don't think crowdfunded games are the place to try to test all of these things.
    Well who better? A publisher is never going to take the risk. An indie company is not going to have the resources without a publisher backing, which again is never going to take the risk.

    People always wonder why SC has brought in so much in funding and it's because they said "we're going to try and do things no one else will". That's why I've personally invested more than I normally would on something unproven, because no-one else is and I'm so sick of the same old rehashes and the garbage being pushed by publishers. Even if on the whole the game doesn't end up being spectacular, which given the pedigree of many of the people involved in the project I'm not that worried about, they could still end up pushing game dev forward in many areas that are currently stagnant cause they're "good enough".
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