Niche

2»

Comments

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,682
    k61977 said:
    The word niche does not mean anything bad at all.  Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word.  It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one.  That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone.  Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.


    Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are

    Niche does mean something bad:

    "denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."

    "small" - that's the bad part


  • btdtbtdt Member UncommonPosts: 98
    Technically speaking all games are niche... 

    It's just a term.  And just like any term, it has many different meanings depending on how it's used...  the old glass is half empty or half full sort of thing.

    It's all a matter of perception.  It's always been a matter of perception.  Does painting a car red make it niche?  How about neon orange?  Black?  They're all just colors, but only a few will buy a car of a certain color.  The car itself is the same as all the others, just it's appearance is different.  By definition, it's now niche and yet if you like the odd color, you don't see it as niche at all.
    Gdemami
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,793
    Kyleran said:
    Even with 2M subs L1 is a niche game, catering almost exclusively to South  Koreans but appealing to no other market.

    Niche doesn't necessarily mean small, its more a measure of how broadly a product appeals to the total market.
    After 18 years that is true but it was actually not unpopular in the west in the early 2000s when I played it. Of course only the absolut hardcore fan groups still play a game after all that time, so I disagree unless age can make a game niche (then again, there is some logic to that).

    I do notice that games popular in countries far away tend to be labeled niche while games just popular in the US isn't so I guess it also depends a bit where you are from.
    Kyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,256
    DMKano said:
    k61977 said:
    The word niche does not mean anything bad at all.  Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word.  It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one.  That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone.  Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.


    Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are

    Niche does mean something bad:

    "denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."

    "small" - that's the bad part


    Well, you did locate and stop looking once you found a definition which included the word small.  In fact you seem to have located the only dictionary (unsourced, Google's? ) which uses small instead of "specific"

    So niches are specific, but can be quite large. It could be argued even WOW appeals to a specific niche,  albeit quite a large one.


    Other sources:

    Merriam/Webster
    " the situation in which a business's products or services can succeed by being sold to a particular kind or group of people"

    Dictionary.com

    adjective

    1. pertaining to or intended for a market niche; having specific appeal

    1. Oxford Collocations Dictionary
    (business) an opportunity to sell a particular product to a particular group of peopleThey spotted a niche in the market, with no serious competition.a niche marketthe development of niche marketing  (still no reference to small)

    YourDictionary.Com
    The definition of a niche is a specialized part of a market for products or services or a little separated area in a room.

    1. An example of a niche is a market for beagle products, which is a niche in the market of dog products as a whole.

    Or the Paragon of definition,  Urban Dictionary  :)
    2. An area of the market specializing in one type of product or service

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • k61977k61977 Pendleton, SCMember RarePosts: 706
    DMKano said:
    k61977 said:
    The word niche does not mean anything bad at all.  Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word.  It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one.  That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone.  Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.


    Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are

    Niche does mean something bad:

    "denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."

    "small" - that's the bad part


    In your view if a game is stable and doing great with it's niche it is a bad thing because it is small.  Small does not equal bad if you were not promoting larger than life.  If a developer is being realistic with their design and expectations a small game can outshine the larger than life failures that are produced every year.  A small game that runs for years is a hell of a lot better than a large failure that only runs for a couple years and is shut down.

    A game designed from the beginning to be a niche is already ahead of the game.  It knows what it's player base is most likely and will design the game around that itself and end up a huge success.  If the game is also a great game and gets a good rep that niche could turn into something larger and end up pulling in more than a large failure. 

    Once again I have to disagree that small does not equal bad.  A great game developed with a smaller budget can outdo many of the massive failures we have today and actually take in more in the long run because of it.  So again smaller especially talking about what this thread was about Pantheon this is a good thing not a bad thing.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,682
    edited September 22
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    k61977 said:
    The word niche does not mean anything bad at all.  Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word.  It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one.  That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone.  Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.


    Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are

    Niche does mean something bad:

    "denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."

    "small" - that's the bad part


    Well, you did locate and stop looking once you found a definition which included the word small.  In fact you seem to have located the only dictionary (unsourced, Google's? ) which uses small instead of "specific"

    So niches are specific, but can be quite large. It could be argued even WOW appeals to a specific niche,  albeit quite a large one.


    Other sources:

    Merriam/Webster
    " the situation in which a business's products or services can succeed by being sold to a particular kind or group of people"

    Dictionary.com

    adjective

    1. pertaining to or intended for a market niche; having specific appeal

    1. Oxford Collocations Dictionary
    (business) an opportunity to sell a particular product to a particular group of peopleThey spotted a niche in the market, with no serious competition.a niche marketthe development of niche marketing  (still no reference to small)

    YourDictionary.Com
    The definition of a niche is a specialized part of a market for products or services or a little separated area in a room.

    1. An example of a niche is a market for beagle products, which is a niche in the market of dog products as a whole.

    Or the Paragon of definition,  Urban Dictionary  :)
    2. An area of the market specializing in one type of product or service



    I just googled it - it was the first thing I did. Didn't look any further as google definitions are probably by far what the most people use. 

    Google just pulls defintions that it finds - it's not like they have their own - the one that shows up on google is Oxford's dictionary:

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/niche


    When used as and adjective - niche does also mean small:

    adjective
    1. 1.
      denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
      "other companies in this space had to adapt to being niche players"




      also 
      http://www.thefreedictionary.com/niche

      4. (Commerce) (modifier) relating to or aimed at a small specialized group or market


      There are other dictionaries that clearly have the world small in the definitions. 
    It's not like niche = small is unheard of, it's certainly one of the acceptable definitions.
    Post edited by DMKano on
  • svannsvann san jose, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,993
    edited September 22
    delete
    Post edited by svann on
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,682
    k61977 said:
    DMKano said:
    k61977 said:
    The word niche does not mean anything bad at all.  Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word.  It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one.  That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone.  Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.


    Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are

    Niche does mean something bad:

    "denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."

    "small" - that's the bad part


    In your view if a game is stable and doing great with it's niche it is a bad thing because it is small.  Small does not equal bad if you were not promoting larger than life.  If a developer is being realistic with their design and expectations a small game can outshine the larger than life failures that are produced every year.  A small game that runs for years is a hell of a lot better than a large failure that only runs for a couple years and is shut down.

    A game designed from the beginning to be a niche is already ahead of the game.  It knows what it's player base is most likely and will design the game around that itself and end up a huge success.  If the game is also a great game and gets a good rep that niche could turn into something larger and end up pulling in more than a large failure. 

    Once again I have to disagree that small does not equal bad.  A great game developed with a smaller budget can outdo many of the massive failures we have today and actually take in more in the long run because of it.  So again smaller especially talking about what this thread was about Pantheon this is a good thing not a bad thing.


    We are talking about 2 entirely different things


    You are talking about niche that was planned from the beginning, and delivered a sustainable game that can stay in the black with a small playerbase. 


    I am talking about MMO that were designed for millions but under delivered and ended up having a few thousand players - in my case "small" is not what the developers hoped - hence BAD

    My example was simply to show how in 100mil+ dollar AAA MMO - niche is BAD - it was an example of how niche can indeed be a bad thing in games that have a huge budget and need a massive playerbase to pay for the dev cost.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,164
    Well, all I know is... I will be enjoying this "niche" game called Pantheon. I would play EQ, but I've been doing that off and on for the past 18 years. There's nothing wrong with appealing to the old school players with something fresh and new.

    I think people confuse success within the MMO genre with games like WoW, TESO, FFXIV, GW2 and BDO. Yes, all those games are very successful. However, you could have a total of 50,000 subscribers and still be making money. Maybe not millions, but enough for a decent living, or enough to branch out and create additional games, expansions or whatever. You don't need millions of subscribers to be successful.
    Aelious

  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,099
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    k61977 said:
    The word niche does not mean anything bad at all.  Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word.  It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one.  That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone.  Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.


    Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are

    Niche does mean something bad:

    "denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."

    "small" - that's the bad part


    Well, you did locate and stop looking once you found a definition which included the word small.  In fact you seem to have located the only dictionary (unsourced, Google's? ) which uses small instead of "specific"

    So niches are specific, but can be quite large. It could be argued even WOW appeals to a specific niche,  albeit quite a large one.


    Other sources:

    Merriam/Webster
    " the situation in which a business's products or services can succeed by being sold to a particular kind or group of people"

    Dictionary.com

    adjective

    1. pertaining to or intended for a market niche; having specific appeal

    1. Oxford Collocations Dictionary
    (business) an opportunity to sell a particular product to a particular group of peopleThey spotted a niche in the market, with no serious competition.a niche marketthe development of niche marketing  (still no reference to small)

    YourDictionary.Com
    The definition of a niche is a specialized part of a market for products or services or a little separated area in a room.

    1. An example of a niche is a market for beagle products, which is a niche in the market of dog products as a whole.

    Or the Paragon of definition,  Urban Dictionary  :)
    2. An area of the market specializing in one type of product or service



    I just googled it - it was the first thing I did. Didn't look any further as google definitions are probably by far what the most people use. 

    Google just pulls defintions that it finds - it's not like they have their own - the one that shows up on google is Oxford's dictionary:

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/niche


    When used as and adjective - niche does also mean small:

    adjective
    1. 1.
      denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
      "other companies in this space had to adapt to being niche players"




      also 
      http://www.thefreedictionary.com/niche

      4. (Commerce) (modifier) relating to or aimed at a small specialized group or market


      There are other dictionaries that clearly have the world small in the definitions. 
    It's not like niche = small is unheard of, it's certainly one of the acceptable definitions.

    I could settle this argument and will all be happy.

    I'll give into Pantheon being niche, knowing 90% of players will be playing a niche game and 10% will be playing mainstream. 

    Being hung up on a word is arbitrary and their is no linear, in other words, it is what it is.  
    Azaron_NightbladeMrMelGibson
  • k61977k61977 Pendleton, SCMember RarePosts: 706
    edited September 23
    DMKano said:
    k61977 said:
    DMKano said:
    k61977 said:
    The word niche does not mean anything bad at all.  Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word.  It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one.  That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone.  Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.


    Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are

    Niche does mean something bad:

    "denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."

    "small" - that's the bad part


    In your view if a game is stable and doing great with it's niche it is a bad thing because it is small.  Small does not equal bad if you were not promoting larger than life.  If a developer is being realistic with their design and expectations a small game can outshine the larger than life failures that are produced every year.  A small game that runs for years is a hell of a lot better than a large failure that only runs for a couple years and is shut down.

    A game designed from the beginning to be a niche is already ahead of the game.  It knows what it's player base is most likely and will design the game around that itself and end up a huge success.  If the game is also a great game and gets a good rep that niche could turn into something larger and end up pulling in more than a large failure. 

    Once again I have to disagree that small does not equal bad.  A great game developed with a smaller budget can outdo many of the massive failures we have today and actually take in more in the long run because of it.  So again smaller especially talking about what this thread was about Pantheon this is a good thing not a bad thing.


    We are talking about 2 entirely different things


    You are talking about niche that was planned from the beginning, and delivered a sustainable game that can stay in the black with a small playerbase. 


    I am talking about MMO that were designed for millions but under delivered and ended up having a few thousand players - in my case "small" is not what the developers hoped - hence BAD

    My example was simply to show how in 100mil+ dollar AAA MMO - niche is BAD - it was an example of how niche can indeed be a bad thing in games that have a huge budget and need a massive playerbase to pay for the dev cost.
    If a game is being design for millions I wouldn't say it was developed for a niche to start with.  Assigning the term after development isn't how it works really when talking about development.  Either you made your game for a niche like a PVE group based only, or a full loot PVP group, from the start with that in mind.  With that in mind the developers should have some idea of what their target number is also for them to consider it a success.  Not all MMO's try to pull in the millions like some other games do. 

    Hell no game will ever pull in the millions like WoW did ever again most likely, right place and right time was what did that.

    Those AAA games that failed were not designed to be niche games.  They were designed most likely for every play style and failed at most of it, which is why they only have a small player base left.  That is were if they had developed to a niche instead they would have came out on top, because their game would have been built from the ground up with a particular play style. 

    Just throwing the word niche in to describe a small player base that is left in a failed game isn't correct either, because that small base could have all different kinds of players that found something they liked which isn't all the same.   When you talk about niche in gaming it is talking about a particular playstyle not just small player base.   That is were me and you are disagreeing. 
    Post edited by k61977 on
Sign In or Register to comment.