Niche

Niche.........This is a bunch of crap ! 

I was almost ready to type "I think", but I stopped my self. 

The real concern is crowed funded, money issues, advertisement, coding of the game, early release and not full.......And last, is it a fun game ? 

I'm not judging Visionary Realms at all.  The cold hard facts are we have no real insight of what's going on in the back round and let me add it's none of our business other than individual investors.  To give is a faith move, and here "I think" it's a good one, and this is the suggestive part.


I'm extremely sorry for starting yet another topic, but I can't take it anymore.  It seems the masses around here take a word and everyone runs with it. 

Sure, even VR called it a niche and it's very bold of me to say it's not.  I don't think VR really understands how badly we need a real mmo.  Were STARVING for one, EVERYONE in in a constant search for one.  Most are just PUTTING UP with any game their playing.  If anything at all, you could say a "community built hard game" is now a feature that was lost for no good reason.  Lot's of people want this feature back.  It was removed by force simply to make games easer to design ! 



So their you have it.  Now I'm hated even more because of my constant posting.  I don't care if I stand alone on something I know is true.  I'm not here to badger or troll..... I don't think it's fun to fight everyone.  Infact it breaks my hart to be hated. 
GdemamiAzaron_NightbladeZombieCatThebeastttXarko
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Comments

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 3,100
    edited September 17
     Most are just PUTTING UP with any game their playing.  
    Where did you come up with this? Please provide how you came up with the sample, the sample size, and show us the results.  Otherwise, speak for yourself.
    Post edited by keithian on

    There Is Always Hope!

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member EpicPosts: 3,437
    edited September 17
    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/468207/as-other-mmos-have-shown-pantheon-is-likely-to-fail-or-be-very-niche#latest

    OP, what you said seriously could not be put in that thread, eh...?

    Suzie, if you would be so kind...
    Post edited by Albatroes on
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,694
    Sad cringe, thats what I felt when reading that 
    KyleranAzaron_NightbladeThebeastttimmodium
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,883
    Niche.........This is a bunch of crap ! 



    Sure, even VR called it a niche and it's very bold of me to say it's not.  I don't think VR really understands how badly we need a real mmo.  Were STARVING for one, EVERYONE in in a constant search for one.  Most are just PUTTING UP with any game their playing.  If anything at all, you could say a "community built hard game" is now a feature that was lost for no good reason.  Lot's of people want this feature back.  It was removed by force simply to make games easer to design ! 




    adjective
    adjective: niche
    1.
    denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.

    or

    d :a specialized market



    a, prove that most are putting up with any game they are playing. Oh, yes, some do this but "most"?

    b, Prove that "lots" equal a majority or larger section of the player population.




    MrMelGibson



  • coretex666coretex666 PragueMember RarePosts: 3,208
    I think it will actually be a niche game  :)
    DMKanoKylerandrivendawnMrMelGibson
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIMember RarePosts: 9,109
    Plenty of "real" mmos out there. Overwatch, call of duty, LOL ect...

    There's only a few good mmorpgs though.
    svannKyleranXarko
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,694
    I think it will actually be a niche game  :)

    Of course it will, even VR knows this.


  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,167
    It will be as niche as EQ1 and Vanguard were and you can take that however you like. :wink:

  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,912
    Niche is not a synonym for unsuccessful. 
    Sovrathdrivendawndcutbi001

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALMember RarePosts: 1,983
    Will it be a niche sure but I have a feeling it will be a bigger niche than some people here think. As many have said we will see.
    Gyva02
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,109
    Will it be a niche sure but I have a feeling it will be a bigger niche than some people here think. As many have said we will see.

    The only players this game will loose are the millions of $5 Black Desert Online players, and the millions of free players.  All the mmo players that had abandoned will be back in droves, and so many others that have never experienced a real mmo :)

    KyleranMrMelGibsonGdemami
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 104
    edited September 18
    A majority of this game's followers, fence sitters, cultists etc are generally higher intelligence or at least more mature. With that said we can be such jerks sometimes. OP's thoughts may not have been clearly construed or well written, but cut him a break he's just passionate about his feelings. It's only ok to bash people who's intentions are negative in some way o:) 

    I don't want to get into another semantic battle about what this game "could be," but I can tell you from the holistic knowledge I've gained through Pantheon's private forums and other QandA with Brad and Kilsin both recently and over time along the road (coupled with simple market research and understanding of the assets they're currently developing, the timings of everything etc) I'd invest as a shareholder in VR today if they went public. 

    There are an exorbitant amount of differences in their development process as a whole that set them apart from other failed mmos. Lot of big names involved with this project from the outside. The recent private trip Brad took to Twitch HQ will be the start of the turn of the tide for marketing Pantheon. Coupled with the entire new graphic textures and lighting that were just added (graphics aren't my first or second concern in games, yet the new screens are blowing me away, having me gawk and stare at the fine details and really help add to immersion) they are certainly putting money into highly influential assets.

    This game will thrive, but it also will be awhile. Testing phases as a whole will be a year minimum (barring a miracle), so the hardest thing to swallow is the waiting. It's only hurting us though not the game. Metaphorically, when this game releases, it's going to be like someone opening up a lemonade stand in a desert; whether it's released in a year from now or even two years from now, it'll still be a ghost town for mmorpgs and easy steal for the market. It's almost synonymous with WoW's market conditions during release and as a marketer it almost makes me giddy. People don't realize how bad WoW was at release and how long it took to make addictive. If there was any competition, it would've died or split population. Pantheon is releasing in the same conditions, so even if the game is mediocre, it's going to sponge everyone up. 
    Post edited by Zuljan on
    Gdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,883
    Zuljan said:
    A majority of this game's followers, fence sitters, cultists etc are generally higher intelligence or at least more mature. With that said we can be such jerks sometimes. OP's thoughts may not have been clearly construed or well written, but cut him a break he's just passionate about his feelings. It's only ok to bash people who's intentions are negative in some way o:) 


    Except that Delete tends to make sweeping emotional statements (and don't get me wrong, I love it when people are passionate about things and lead with their heart provided it's tempered with a little thought) that are not grounded in any reality.

    It's basically "line in the sand" type stuff but completely off base.

    Yes, this is a niche game. the MMORPG playerbase has grown and broadened since its inception to include people who would never like this type of game and people who consider games that would normally not be considered mmorpg's to be mmorpg's.

    How many people played the original games total? half a million/a million over time.

    How many who did play the original games liked/loved them as opposed to hated them.

    Now take that number and compare it to the vast amount of people who play them today.

    I think this game will have a core following and yes there are people who want this type of game. But a majority over a slim minority? People are going to compare it to modern games, especially in the looks/animations department. Heck, we hear that it looks dated all the time or that the game play looks dated (which is like saying water feels wet). Of course it's dated, that's what the people who want it like about it.







  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 104
    Sovrath said:
    Zuljan said:
    A majority of this game's followers, fence sitters, cultists etc are generally higher intelligence or at least more mature. With that said we can be such jerks sometimes. OP's thoughts may not have been clearly construed or well written, but cut him a break he's just passionate about his feelings. It's only ok to bash people who's intentions are negative in some way o:) 


    Except that Delete tends to make sweeping emotional statements (and don't get me wrong, I love it when people are passionate about things and lead with their heart provided it's tempered with a little thought) that are not grounded in any reality.

    It's basically "line in the sand" type stuff but completely off base.

    Yes, this is a niche game. the MMORPG playerbase has grown and broadened since its inception to include people who would never like this type of game and people who consider games that would normally not be considered mmorpg's to be mmorpg's.

    How many people played the original games total? half a million/a million over time.

    How many who did play the original games liked/loved them as opposed to hated them.

    Now take that number and compare it to the vast amount of people who play them today.

    I think this game will have a core following and yes there are people who want this type of game. But a majority over a slim minority? People are going to compare it to modern games, especially in the looks/animations department. Heck, we hear that it looks dated all the time or that the game play looks dated (which is like saying water feels wet). Of course it's dated, that's what the people who want it like about it.




    I like where your head is at. You make good points/concerns most people should be aware of. There are lurking variables to take into account however;

    When you ask how many played the original, how many hated/loved them, and how many still play them today, I feel each can be individually answered and dissected, but in general, I think it would be easier to start with the biggest lurking variable(s) that would discount enough relevant statistical confidence to satisfy a null hypothesis or otherwise:

    -the amount of people that played originals, loved/hated them, and who play them today, is all a completely different population and from a completely separate/irrelavent time period. In short, the amount of people who played EQ or any MMO at that time was minuscule compared to how the market changed after WoW and you cannot compare two markets that are, in fact, different entities from different time periods. The market is gigantic for mmos now, and the number of mmorpg players not playing an MMO but wanting to play have actually never been higher. The misconception is that Pantheon is trying to corner a small retro/hardcore MMO population, retaining out dated qualities from the past.

    WoW simply changed the meta so to speak of the MMO market into a more casual style of play, but that is not the main or only reason for its success and it didn't mean that casual was the key to MMO longevity either. In fact, all of the hardcore players from EQ went to WoW as well, albeit they would've all preferred EQ/VG (VG failed for difference reasons altogether). It's vital to let this sink in and realize players simply enjoy good games. You have to learn what people want in marketing, and whether it's a movie, music, food, generally people will not have any single preference or style, so long as it is GOOD and fits their needs at the given time.

    People are now tired of the theme park style of WoW after it had a decade of success, but does that mean casual MMOs are now useless and not the answer (akin to you referring to EQ's hardcore/difficult style being outdated)? Obviously not, for it's simply the repetitive dailies, casualness to raids and the game in general, old graphics and feeling outdated in general etc. But this does NOT mean people are tired of mmorpgs or even a lot of the basic qualities and foundations within theme park mmos (i.e. leveling, some kind of grouping, some form of pvp, gear, raids, questing, epics). What I'm saying many assume that EQ's more strategic, more difficult yet slower style of combat is simply outdated and people don't want it. That's not true, same as people love so many of the qualities of WoW. They're just tired of the dailies, the outdated feel and graphics in general, all the raid changes and casualness they added etc as already mentioned. What Pantheon will be, is SOME of EQ, SOME of WoW, and some of the other mmos like FF I've seen discussed in Dev forums, then adding their own new mechanics that have already been outlined and polishing everything else. We are getting an evolved, hybrid animal with MMORPG heterozygote advantage for the FIRST time honestly in history. They are literally not even focusing on raids end game. It's story and lore driven, with tons of horizontal content. You can enjoy this game and even raid at lower levels if you choose. The mentor system is just awesome, so many other new elements. The things that make WoW outdated and things that made EQ feel outdated (old graphics, animations, time wasted meditating between combat, time wasted spending days or weeks camping 1 mob) will NOT be a part of Pantheon. People keep saying the older players want the old, negative aspects of EQ and that is simply untrue, nor does VR aim to accomplish that.

    Also wanted to reiterate they literally just implemented brand new textures and lighting (couple days ago) that look amazing, so all the talk about mediocre graphics etc will be a thing of the past, save for hardcore graphic naysayers. The difference is night and day, honestly.
    Kylerandelete5230Gdemami
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthMember EpicPosts: 4,223
    DMKano said:
    Sad cringe, thats what I felt when reading that 
    This is why I always read his name as "Delusional5230" ;)

    Gdemami

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    Feel free to send me a message if you want a guest pass to try Black Desert Online as well!

  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,109
    Sovrath said:
    Zuljan said:
    A majority of this game's followers, fence sitters, cultists etc are generally higher intelligence or at least more mature. With that said we can be such jerks sometimes. OP's thoughts may not have been clearly construed or well written, but cut him a break he's just passionate about his feelings. It's only ok to bash people who's intentions are negative in some way o:) 


    Except that Delete tends to make sweeping emotional statements (and don't get me wrong, I love it when people are passionate about things and lead with their heart provided it's tempered with a little thought) that are not grounded in any reality.

    It's basically "line in the sand" type stuff but completely off base.

    Yes, this is a niche game. the MMORPG playerbase has grown and broadened since its inception to include people who would never like this type of game and people who consider games that would normally not be considered mmorpg's to be mmorpg's.

    How many people played the original games total? half a million/a million over time.

    How many who did play the original games liked/loved them as opposed to hated them.

    Now take that number and compare it to the vast amount of people who play them today.

    I think this game will have a core following and yes there are people who want this type of game. But a majority over a slim minority? People are going to compare it to modern games, especially in the looks/animations department. Heck, we hear that it looks dated all the time or that the game play looks dated (which is like saying water feels wet). Of course it's dated, that's what the people who want it like about it.





    You talk about my " line in the sand " and your drawing one yourself ! 

    Sure I have a crude way about my postings..... So here's another blunt crude statement. 

    " Your wrong "
    KyleranXarkoGdemami
  • Scott23Scott23 Moline, ILMember UncommonPosts: 256
    I hope it is niche.  My worst fear is that release week will see a million people try to login when they are only ready for a 1/10 of that number - or 10 million and they are ready for a million (if you are Delete5230).
    LegotheHutt
  • SatanikzSatanikz Member CommonPosts: 20
    As long as they stick to their vision and don't get greedy like some other MMO's (particularly one released in July) it should be successful in my view. 
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member UncommonPosts: 207
    Actually, the title will be fairly niche.

    If this type of play was what the masses wanted it would not have been supplanted in the first place. Yet is was, and so much so it created an industry juggernaut in the process, and a steady line of what some might call spiritual successors.

    Being niche isn't a bad thing though, as EVE amply demonstrates, so long as the game caters well enough to the intended audience to acquire and then retain it.
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,623
    Sovrath said:
    Zuljan said:
    A majority of this game's followers, fence sitters, cultists etc are generally higher intelligence or at least more mature. With that said we can be such jerks sometimes. OP's thoughts may not have been clearly construed or well written, but cut him a break he's just passionate about his feelings. It's only ok to bash people who's intentions are negative in some way o:) 


    Except that Delete tends to make sweeping emotional statements (and don't get me wrong, I love it when people are passionate about things and lead with their heart provided it's tempered with a little thought) that are not grounded in any reality.

    It's basically "line in the sand" type stuff but completely off base.

    Yes, this is a niche game. the MMORPG playerbase has grown and broadened since its inception to include people who would never like this type of game and people who consider games that would normally not be considered mmorpg's to be mmorpg's.

    How many people played the original games total? half a million/a million over time.

    How many who did play the original games liked/loved them as opposed to hated them.

    Now take that number and compare it to the vast amount of people who play them today.

    I think this game will have a core following and yes there are people who want this type of game. But a majority over a slim minority? People are going to compare it to modern games, especially in the looks/animations department. Heck, we hear that it looks dated all the time or that the game play looks dated (which is like saying water feels wet). Of course it's dated, that's what the people who want it like about it.





    You talk about my " line in the sand " and your drawing one yourself ! 

    Sure I have a crude way about my postings..... So here's another blunt crude statement. 

    " Your wrong "
    Problem is not the crudeness but it is coupled with the unwillingness to improve yourself. We have corrected you over and over and yet you persist in writing 'you're' as 'your'. I can understand if you make the mistake and then correct yourself but you seem to take pride in your poor spelling. Not saying my spelling is flawless but at least try to improve yourself so that you come across with some intelligence.

    As far as this niche goes let's take your favourite game and the game you started playing in this genre. The vanilla servers and their current PvE population stands at slightly over a thousand. The server that is doing well at times hitting 9000 is the PvP servers. So if this is what people enjoy why aren't they flocking to the PvE servers? What is the draw of the PvP server in comparison to the PvE server ?

    While I will definitely play Pantheon I am not as delusional as you to think it will be a huge success. I am hoping it will do well but your continued topics on this subject just make a mockery of the idea.
    MendelKyleran

  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,109
    kitarad said:
    Sovrath said:
    Zuljan said:
    A majority of this game's followers, fence sitters, cultists etc are generally higher intelligence or at least more mature. With that said we can be such jerks sometimes. OP's thoughts may not have been clearly construed or well written, but cut him a break he's just passionate about his feelings. It's only ok to bash people who's intentions are negative in some way o:) 


    Except that Delete tends to make sweeping emotional statements (and don't get me wrong, I love it when people are passionate about things and lead with their heart provided it's tempered with a little thought) that are not grounded in any reality.

    It's basically "line in the sand" type stuff but completely off base.

    Yes, this is a niche game. the MMORPG playerbase has grown and broadened since its inception to include people who would never like this type of game and people who consider games that would normally not be considered mmorpg's to be mmorpg's.

    How many people played the original games total? half a million/a million over time.

    How many who did play the original games liked/loved them as opposed to hated them.

    Now take that number and compare it to the vast amount of people who play them today.

    I think this game will have a core following and yes there are people who want this type of game. But a majority over a slim minority? People are going to compare it to modern games, especially in the looks/animations department. Heck, we hear that it looks dated all the time or that the game play looks dated (which is like saying water feels wet). Of course it's dated, that's what the people who want it like about it.





    You talk about my " line in the sand " and your drawing one yourself ! 

    Sure I have a crude way about my postings..... So here's another blunt crude statement. 

    " Your wrong "
    Problem is not the crudeness but it is coupled with the unwillingness to improve yourself. We have corrected you over and over and yet you persist in writing 'you're' as 'your'. I can understand if you make the mistake and then correct yourself but you seem to take pride in your poor spelling. Not saying my spelling is flawless but at least try to improve yourself so that you come across with some intelligence.

    As far as this niche goes let's take your favourite game and the game you started playing in this genre. The vanilla servers and their current PvE population stands at slightly over a thousand. The server that is doing well at times hitting 9000 is the PvP servers. So if this is what people enjoy why aren't they flocking to the PvE servers? What is the draw of the PvP server in comparison to the PvE server ?

    While I will definitely play Pantheon I am not as delusional as you to think it will be a huge success. I am hoping it will do well but your continued topics on this subject just make a mockery of the idea.

    Thanks for the advice on improving myself.  I'll try harder next time when I have more time.


    Anyway, I'm trying to understand you're example of proof it's a niche game.  Your comparing PvE is niche to PvP being popular ? 

    If so I don't think this is the reason the majority of people here are saying Pantheon is niche, but  the hard world group thing is more the issue...... To answer this, is to get off topic, and this would only be my opinion:

    Not too many mmos with PvP don't offer choices of the two.  Infact only one comes to mind World of Warcraft.  And PvP is most popular because WoW had always done PvP right in "open world".  Why does it work right ?...... Because it's a very large world !..... It's much easer to co-exist and not in your face.  In other words it could be avoided unless the player is in the mood and goes looking for it. 

    Other than World of Warcraft, most games are full loot and this is niche for only the competitive players or Instanced mini games..... Like I say this is getting off topic.

    See, I'm improving myself already with using you're :)


    Azaron_NightbladeMrMelGibson
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,805

    Thanks for the advice on improving myself.  I'll try harder next time when I have more time.


    Anyway, I'm trying to understand you're example of proof it's a niche game.  Your comparing PvE is niche to PvP being popular ? 

    If so I don't think this is the reason the majority of people here are saying Pantheon is niche, but  the hard world group thing is more the issue...... To answer this, is to get off topic, and this would only be my opinion:

    Not too many mmos with PvP don't offer choices of the two.  Infact only one comes to mind World of Warcraft.  And PvP is most popular because WoW had always done PvP right in "open world".  Why does it work right ?...... Because it's a very large world !..... It's much easer to co-exist and not in your face.  In other words it could be avoided unless the player is in the mood and goes looking for it. 

    Other than World of Warcraft, most games are full loot and this is niche for only the competitive players or Instanced mini games..... Like I say this is getting off topic.

    See, I'm improving myself already with using you're :)
    It might just be me but when I think great PvP I think DaoC & GW, not Wow and those games were certainly not full loot either (so I basically agree with your point but not your example).

    Both those games had instanced PvP though, the game who does open PvP best and have done so since 1999 is Lineage (who by the way still is insanely popular in the East). What made Lineages open world PvP differ from Wow is that now and again you dropped and item, enough to give an adrenaline rush to any PvP fight but not enough to force you to constantly replace all your gear.

    Pantheons PvP will not be good, the game is PvE focused and you will probably do better looking at Crowfall or Camelot Unchained if you want a PvP game.

    The reason Pantheon is a niche game is that it is so much more time consuming then the average game. Just beating a couple of trashmobs will take a party at least a minute while you in Wow would kill them in a second.

    That makes it niche but being niche can actually be a a positive thing there, Pantheon have very little competition since there are no similar MMOs made the last 10 years.

    There are both PvP and PvE MMOs with millions of players so I refuse to call either playstyle niche if anyone here thinks so. Wow certainly proven that PvE can be mainstream and both Lineage and some newer games proven the same thing about PvP. Calling something with over 2 million paying subscribers after all that time niche is just silly (wow is 13 years old, Lineage 18 years).
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,109
    Zuljan said:
    A majority of this game's followers, fence sitters, cultists etc are generally higher intelligence or at least more mature. With that said we can be such jerks sometimes. OP's thoughts may not have been clearly construed or well written, but cut him a break he's just passionate about his feelings. It's only ok to bash people who's intentions are negative in some way o:) 

    I don't want to get into another semantic battle about what this game "could be," but I can tell you from the holistic knowledge I've gained through Pantheon's private forums and other QandA with Brad and Kilsin both recently and over time along the road (coupled with simple market research and understanding of the assets they're currently developing, the timings of everything etc) I'd invest as a shareholder in VR today if they went public. 

    There are an exorbitant amount of differences in their development process as a whole that set them apart from other failed mmos. Lot of big names involved with this project from the outside. The recent private trip Brad took to Twitch HQ will be the start of the turn of the tide for marketing Pantheon. Coupled with the entire new graphic textures and lighting that were just added (graphics aren't my first or second concern in games, yet the new screens are blowing me away, having me gawk and stare at the fine details and really help add to immersion) they are certainly putting money into highly influential assets.

    This game will thrive, but it also will be awhile. Testing phases as a whole will be a year minimum (barring a miracle), so the hardest thing to swallow is the waiting. It's only hurting us though not the game. Metaphorically, when this game releases, it's going to be like someone opening up a lemonade stand in a desert; whether it's released in a year from now or even two years from now, it'll still be a ghost town for mmorpgs and easy steal for the market. It's almost synonymous with WoW's market conditions during release and as a marketer it almost makes me giddy. People don't realize how bad WoW was at release and how long it took to make addictive. If there was any competition, it would've died or split population. Pantheon is releasing in the same conditions, so even if the game is mediocre, it's going to sponge everyone up. 

    Zuljin gets it..... This is how it is:) 

    He's much better at explaining it than I.  Sure I guess it's oblivious my postings are awful in their presentation punctuation and spelling.  Hay just call me a redneck, I don't care. 



    I just find it amazing how blind so many people are on this site as to how sad of a state mmo's had become.

    It's just a fact people are just putting up with garbage.  Would you like me to run another poll on the main forum about Asian grinders, or cash shops or cheap mmos made by the larger companies ?....... In every case in the past, they show negative response to what we have now. by far they do.  In fact usually by 80%.

    Yet, they are ignored by the same ten people that dominate this site !... I could name all ten instantly it's so apparent.
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,274
    Loke666 said:

    Thanks for the advice on improving myself.  I'll try harder next time when I have more time.


    Anyway, I'm trying to understand you're example of proof it's a niche game.  Your comparing PvE is niche to PvP being popular ? 

    If so I don't think this is the reason the majority of people here are saying Pantheon is niche, but  the hard world group thing is more the issue...... To answer this, is to get off topic, and this would only be my opinion:

    Not too many mmos with PvP don't offer choices of the two.  Infact only one comes to mind World of Warcraft.  And PvP is most popular because WoW had always done PvP right in "open world".  Why does it work right ?...... Because it's a very large world !..... It's much easer to co-exist and not in your face.  In other words it could be avoided unless the player is in the mood and goes looking for it. 

    Other than World of Warcraft, most games are full loot and this is niche for only the competitive players or Instanced mini games..... Like I say this is getting off topic.

    See, I'm improving myself already with using you're :)
    It might just be me but when I think great PvP I think DaoC & GW, not Wow and those games were certainly not full loot either (so I basically agree with your point but not your example).

    Both those games had instanced PvP though, the game who does open PvP best and have done so since 1999 is Lineage (who by the way still is insanely popular in the East). What made Lineages open world PvP differ from Wow is that now and again you dropped and item, enough to give an adrenaline rush to any PvP fight but not enough to force you to constantly replace all your gear.

    Pantheons PvP will not be good, the game is PvE focused and you will probably do better looking at Crowfall or Camelot Unchained if you want a PvP game.

    The reason Pantheon is a niche game is that it is so much more time consuming then the average game. Just beating a couple of trashmobs will take a party at least a minute while you in Wow would kill them in a second.

    That makes it niche but being niche can actually be a a positive thing there, Pantheon have very little competition since there are no similar MMOs made the last 10 years.

    There are both PvP and PvE MMOs with millions of players so I refuse to call either playstyle niche if anyone here thinks so. Wow certainly proven that PvE can be mainstream and both Lineage and some newer games proven the same thing about PvP. Calling something with over 2 million paying subscribers after all that time niche is just silly (wow is 13 years old, Lineage 18 years).
    Even with 2M subs L1 is a niche game, catering almost exclusively to South  Koreans but appealing to no other market.

    Niche doesn't necessarily mean small, its more a measure of how broadly a product appeals to the total market.


    Gdemami

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • k61977k61977 Pendleton, SCMember RarePosts: 709
    The word niche does not mean anything bad at all.  Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word.  It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one.  That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone.  Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.
    Gdemami
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