Does Star Citizen deserve its hate?

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  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,148
    Eldurian said:
    When you have a lot of your core systems in place, and they are actually fun, how could that not be considered "meaningful progress"? Do you actually have a definition of that phrase or is it something you are just arbitrarily throwing out and failing to define so that you can pretend you are saying something worthwhile?
    They don't have a lot of their core systems in place. They have a barely functioning skeleton and CR is focusing on the aesthetic before he gets the framework up.

    I see you're still resorting to ignoring any points I throw out there but that's ok cause it makes for good reading.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    See the thing is, you're not defining your expectations. "They haven't done anything worthwhile!" "They don't have their core systems!"

    They have both space and ground combat functioning. They even have the AI of the enemy ships fully functioning in space and from some of the latest videos showing off 3.0 you can see NPCs fighting back in in ground combat too. The PTU has multiplayer functioning and covers a lot of the basic multiplayer features as well as implementing missions, space travel, and even NPC shops.

    If those aren't their core systems then what the heck are? What do you consider the core systems of a space combat sim to be if it isn't space combat?
    Erillion
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    I looked at the game early on but after the kickstarter I think.

    It seemed pretty interesting, but also more expensive than I'd likely be able to afford based on the ship prices, and some kind of insurance thing I never found the details of but sounded like an additional ongoing expense.

    Hopefully those such as yourself that invested heavily in the game will feel well rewarded when it is fully released. At least you can enjoy parts of it while you wait.
    I'm heavily invested and not heavily invested. I showed a rough overview of what I did in another topic.

    The value of my remaining assets is roughly 645$ worth of ships but if you subtract everything I've spent on Star Citizen from the money I earned selling ships it leaves me about $1150 ahead. I was a 50% owner of an Idriss-M (1000$ ship that could be purchased LTI in the original kickstarter) that got resold for a 3-4 times it's original purchase value as well as a few other ships I flipped at a profit. 

    So if the game was canceled tomorrow I would be disappointed but not angry.
    LucienRene
  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAMember RarePosts: 1,960
    Eldurian said:
    See the thing is, you're not defining your expectations. "They haven't done anything worthwhile!" "They don't have their core systems!"

    They have both space and ground combat functioning. They even have the AI of the enemy ships fully functioning in space and from some of the latest videos showing off 3.0 you can see NPCs fighting back in in ground combat too. The PTU has multiplayer functioning and covers a lot of the basic multiplayer features as well as implementing missions, space travel, and even NPC shops.

    If those aren't their core systems then what the heck are? What do you consider the core systems of a space combat sim to be if it isn't space combat?
    they dont have persistence yet for one thing.

    but everything you cite still doesnt negate what the other guy said. they have a skeleton (barely)

    also citing 'latest' videos is the mistake you always make. Until its on the PTU it is irrelevant. They have shown videos for 4 or 5 years now of stuff that still hasnt been implemented on the PTU. So just stop talking about videos whether they claim to be 'in game' footage or not.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,509
    Eldurian said:
    See the thing is, you're not defining your expectations. "They haven't done anything worthwhile!" "They don't have their core systems!"

    They have both space and ground combat functioning.

    While I agree with you that many of the core systems are in the game, I think the issue is what state are they in.  I have not played the game in over a year but everything I have seen about the FPS portion tells me it is a skeleton of a game mode.  What happened to all the things Roberts said back in 2015?

    “If you shoot someone in the arm, they have to go one-handed."

    "if you’re running a lot you’ll drop your stamina and that will make it harder for you to hold your gun while you’re aiming, so you’ll have to recover a bit"

    “We’re going for a different FPS experience from the Call of Duty or Battlefield insta-respawn, rushing, quick combat, quick shooting set-up."

    “Best playable soldiers on the simulated Battlefield.”

    These quotes all came from 2015 and Roberts PAXeast presentation.  So here we are years later and millions more dollars poured in and can you honestly say any of these quotes are currently factual? 

    Now before you jump into your "the game needs more time" rant, then tell me why Roberts continues to promise features and gameplay that are many years away from seeing the light of day?  At this rate the FPS mode wont hit these expectations until 2025. 



    LucienRene
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,602
    edited October 4
    Talonsin said:
    While I agree with you that many of the core systems are in the game, I think the issue is what state are they in.  I have not played the game in over a year but everything I have seen about the FPS portion tells me it is a skeleton of a game mode.  What happened to all the things Roberts said back in 2015?

    “If you shoot someone in the arm, they have to go one-handed."

    "if you’re running a lot you’ll drop your stamina and that will make it harder for you to hold your gun while you’re aiming, so you’ll have to recover a bit"

    “We’re going for a different FPS experience from the Call of Duty or Battlefield insta-respawn, rushing, quick combat, quick shooting set-up."

    “Best playable soldiers on the simulated Battlefield.”

    These quotes all came from 2015 and Roberts PAXeast presentation.  So here we are years later and millions more dollars poured in and can you honestly say any of these quotes are currently factual? 

    Now before you jump into your "the game needs more time" rant, then tell me why Roberts continues to promise features and gameplay that are many years away from seeing the light of day?  At this rate the FPS mode wont hit these expectations until 2025. 
    The main point: We all know, so did they admit that they did had to redo a lot of SM stuff, what lead to step-backs on what the outsourced FPS already had done. There's no point asking the question when you know this and it's public info now.

    See Stamina in 3.0, one of those pitches that were missing from the FPS experience to be added in this next update, this is just rants and rants and rants about the time it takes, not that it won't happen.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,148
    Eldurian said:
    See the thing is, you're not defining your expectations. "They haven't done anything worthwhile!" "They don't have their core systems!"

    They have both space and ground combat functioning. They even have the AI of the enemy ships fully functioning in space and from some of the latest videos showing off 3.0 you can see NPCs fighting back in in ground combat too. The PTU has multiplayer functioning and covers a lot of the basic multiplayer features as well as implementing missions, space travel, and even NPC shops.

    If those aren't their core systems then what the heck are? What do you consider the core systems of a space combat sim to be if it isn't space combat?
    They have space combat functioning in a space combat game......colour me impressed. It's not even that great since the flight model I hear is garbage (and even worse now that they showed ships in atmo) and last I remember missiles behave erratically. So yeah they have a very poorly implemented space combat game that you could goto most any other space combat game and get the same experience if you don't care about graphics.

    As was already said you're using videos as evidence that they have things functioning. The backers can't play it and until they can I treat as fluff marketing videos to generate hype and it may or may not actually be implemented in the game. So please stop using marketing pieces as the keystone of your argument that they have features in game.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,602
    edited October 4
    Gotta wait for 3.0 to release, the current feature-list as anyone can see on https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report, so then you don't get to commit a "public heresy" crime by talking about those features in this forum @Eldurian.

    It's really a matter of time until that argument finally starts to fall apart, and the next spin to dismiss SC and its progress takes its place (bug compilation videos perhaps?), meh, some things shall never change.

    btw, I don't think 3.0 has confirmed ground FPS AI, it introduces a new AI system that brings AI to NPCs and not only ships that yes.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    edited October 4
    "Persistence" isn't a core feature or a basic. Unless you are talking temporary persistence that will eventually be wiped as they already have in the PTU. When your MMO is fully persistent that is what you call is "release". So essentially you are saying we can't recognize them as having completed any core features until the day the game launches. That's ridiculous.

    @Kefo - You keep saying "Space combat in a space combat game!" Yes. The basis of the game is up and functional. It's kind of like saying "Omg! This Need for Speed Game is going to release soon and all they have is racing and a car upgrade system!!!" Duuur. That's the point. The features they DON'T have are the fluff for the most part. The meat of the game is already there.

    I am going to count what they show in the videos because while most game's promotional videos are cinematics, the videos I'm referring to are uncut footage of people playing the game in-front of a live audience. If it it exists in those videos it is playable, regardless of whether it's made it to the PTU or not.


    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,148
    Eldurian said:
    "Persistence" isn't a core feature or a basic. Unless you are talking temporary persistence that will eventually be wiped as they already have in the PTU. When your MMO is fully persistent that is what you call is "release". So essentially you are saying we can't recognize them as having completed any core features until the day the game launches. That's ridiculous.

    @Kefo - You keep saying "Space combat in a space combat game!" Yes. The basis of the game is up and functional. It's kind of like saying "Omg! This Need for Speed Game is going to release soon and all they have is racing and a car upgrade system!!!" Duuur. That's the point. The features they DON'T have are the fluff for the most part. The meat of the game is already there.

    I am going to count what they show in the videos because while most game's promotional videos are cinematics, the videos I'm referring to are uncut footage of people playing the game in-front of a live audience. If it it exists in those videos it is playable, regardless of whether it's made it to the PTU or not.


    The basic of space combat is there but it's a broken buggy mess that would be a stretch to think that it's complete and the meat of the game.

    Persistence in this case I think people are referring to actually saving your character when you log out. Saving where oh are and what ship you're in. You know things that kinda define a MMO so that you don't start over in the starter city whenever you fire up the game again.
  • sgelsgel Member RarePosts: 1,597
    Eldurian said:


    I am going to count what they show in the videos because while most game's promotional videos are cinematics, the videos I'm referring to are uncut footage of people playing the game in-front of a live audience. If it it exists in those videos it is playable, regardless of whether it's made it to the PTU or not.


    You think making a demo that plays on a few networked PCs is the same as successfuly applying it to an MMO where thousands of players will be playing it?



    Octagon7711Kefo

    ..Cake..

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,509
    MaxBacon said:
    Talonsin said:
    While I agree with you that many of the core systems are in the game, I think the issue is what state are they in.  I have not played the game in over a year but everything I have seen about the FPS portion tells me it is a skeleton of a game mode.  What happened to all the things Roberts said back in 2015?

    “If you shoot someone in the arm, they have to go one-handed."

    "if you’re running a lot you’ll drop your stamina and that will make it harder for you to hold your gun while you’re aiming, so you’ll have to recover a bit"

    “We’re going for a different FPS experience from the Call of Duty or Battlefield insta-respawn, rushing, quick combat, quick shooting set-up."

    “Best playable soldiers on the simulated Battlefield.”

    These quotes all came from 2015 and Roberts PAXeast presentation.  So here we are years later and millions more dollars poured in and can you honestly say any of these quotes are currently factual? 

    Now before you jump into your "the game needs more time" rant, then tell me why Roberts continues to promise features and gameplay that are many years away from seeing the light of day?  At this rate the FPS mode wont hit these expectations until 2025. 
    The main point: We all know, so did they admit that they did had to redo a lot of SM stuff, what lead to step-backs on what the outsourced FPS already had done. There's no point asking the question when you know this and it's public info now.

    See Stamina in 3.0, one of those pitches that were missing from the FPS experience to be added in this next update, this is just rants and rants and rants about the time it takes, not that it won't happen.
    I see you missed this part of my post:

    "Now before you jump into your "the game needs more time" rant, then tell me why Roberts continues to promise features and gameplay that are many years away from seeing the light of day?  At this rate the FPS mode wont hit these expectations until 2025.  "

    Will it happen?  Given an unlimited amount of time and money, sure it will eventually happen, heck I would think that even you Max could make it happen given the same amount of resources Roberts has.  But just like the issues with SM some of you people refuse to admit that this project has been mismanaged. 

    We were told that without a publisher one dollar would be worth 4.  Is what we currently have worth $600 million?  Will 3.0 be worth $600 million?  The fact is, Chris got a big head and built studios all over the planet and now has just as much overhead as he would have if this game did have a publisher, only then we would have someone reining him in.  Why develop space poop when you dont even have a half way decent FPS module yet after making all those promises?

    Even you Max admitted earlier that they are spending more than they are taking in.  How long can that trend continue and what happens when the well dries up?  They already started taking loans on future revenue. 


    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    sgel said:
    Eldurian said:


    I am going to count what they show in the videos because while most game's promotional videos are cinematics, the videos I'm referring to are uncut footage of people playing the game in-front of a live audience. If it it exists in those videos it is playable, regardless of whether it's made it to the PTU or not.


    You think making a demo that plays on a few networked PCs is the same as successfuly applying it to an MMO where thousands of players will be playing it?
    No, but it is proof they have it programed and working on some scale. I'm not looking for proof they are ready to go and launch the game tomorrow. I'm looking for proof that they are making progress. Getting something working on internal networks is proof things are getting done. Especially when they show it live and uncut in-front of an audience at a conference. 
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    edited October 4
    Kefo said:

    The basic of space combat is there but it's a broken buggy mess that would be a stretch to think that it's complete and the meat of the game.
    Space Marine still seems a bit rough but the space combat was working fine when I played it a couple weeks ago. Remind me again when the last time you tried it was?
    Post edited by Eldurian on
    Erillion
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,148
    Eldurian said:
    Kefo said:

    The basic of space combat is there but it's a broken buggy mess that would be a stretch to think that it's complete and the meat of the game.
    Space Marine still seems a bit rough but the space combat was working fine when I played it a couple weeks ago. Remind me again when the last time you tried it was?
    I don't need to try it since I can see streamers and read about it on Reddit from people saying the flight model is lacklustre. Why would I throw money into a bottomless pit with someone who has proven they are incapable of managing a game studio?
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,602
    There are studies that show there's a section of gamers that gets from games what you get from sex. True story.

    We should talk about that, better topic than this regurgitated drama that is the same for years now. :D
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member RarePosts: 837
    edited October 4
    Kefo said:
    You're seriously comparing sex to playing a video game? It's a video game. I've played countless video games and it's not hard to see what is working and what isn't in people's streams or videos. 

    And there you go brining up Derek Smart again when he wasn't even mentioned. Do fans have a quote they have to fill or is it some kind of obsession with you?
    Well maybe that's because you all share the same flaws of smart lol

    - Uninformed "Facts"
    - Hyperbolic Lying
    - Caustic "jokes"
    - Rehashed "eminent doom"
    - Angry about "selling ships=More Funding"
    - Etc

    And I could go on but by now anyone paying attention has noticed just how much Star Citizen continuous development and media exposure get's on some peoples nerves lol

    Which is good because the people that "don't like it" but still keep focusing on it are most likely CIG next costumers down the line because there's clear interest in the game. 

    In fairness even bringing sex into this discussion, as an allegory to do with Star Citizen is supremely stupid, and in fact some of the SC videos showing how buggy SC is atm are turning people away from the game. One in particular, if watched by  someone who was new to SC, would definitely turn off people buying the game as it makes it look totally rubbish.
    Every video-game has bugs, if people are turned away by bugs in a alpha game turning away is exactly what they should be doing and there's no problem whatsoever in that. CIG doesn't need more uninformed backers clueless about game development, the ones they have are plenty already.
    Post edited by Babuinix on
    KefoVorpalChicken28
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,871
    Yeah, going back to the SWTOR analogy all you could see in local on the day of release was people griping about the bugs. I remember when I first tried LOTRO in beta it lagged so bad that I concluded it was crap, tried it again a year later and it became probably my favorite theme park title.

    When people gripe about buggy alphas and betas and even buggy releases it makes me wonder what game they've ever played that would meet their standards at that stage of development. When we are talking major unaddressed issues multiple years after release like Mortal Online or something then they might have a point.

    SC has it's bugs like any title but it's far from a title like Pathfinder Online that was subpar even for an alpha.
    Babuinix
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member RarePosts: 837
    edited October 4
    People hold on to bugs talk because they know no better. It's just another poor excuse to pick on the game because it's always in the limelight and keeps getting more and more money/players.

    Reality is that most of the "hate" comes from a mix of ignorance and spite against CIG/Chris Roberts. Funnily enough the fact that the game is so ambitious and complex allows for constant contortionism of what to pick on lol, they just keep moving the ball on to the next playfield.

    Watch it happen after 3.0 comes out no doubt.
    Post edited by Babuinix on
    Eldurian
  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 77
    Eldurian said:
    Yeah, going back to the SWTOR analogy all you could see in local on the day of release was people griping about the bugs. I remember when I first tried LOTRO in beta it lagged so bad that I concluded it was crap, tried it again a year later and it became probably my favorite theme park title.

    When people gripe about buggy alphas and betas and even buggy releases it makes me wonder what game they've ever played that would meet their standards at that stage of development. When we are talking major unaddressed issues multiple years after release like Mortal Online or something then they might have a point.

    SC has it's bugs like any title but it's far from a title like Pathfinder Online that was subpar even for an alpha.
    Yep the doors wouldn't open, players could stand in door ways and block people. It was a mess, yet was fixed relatively fast. Because they had publishers pushing them to fix it.

    SC hasn't that problem, they can leave a game breaking bug as long as they wish. No one is behind them pushing them to get things running correctly. 

    Just pointing out it's a little unfair to compare. When both are run differently from the top down.
    BabuinixKefo
  • AlverantAlverant Wheaton, ILMember RarePosts: 925
    They're way behind on what they promised and keep finding excuses to ask for more money. Is that deserving of hate? To some probably. But since I never bought into it, I can just sit back and laaaaugh at all the fanboys.
    alkarionlog
  • laxielaxie UK - Leamington SpaMember RarePosts: 906
    ScotchUp said:
    Eldurian said:
    Yeah, going back to the SWTOR analogy all you could see in local on the day of release was people griping about the bugs. I remember when I first tried LOTRO in beta it lagged so bad that I concluded it was crap, tried it again a year later and it became probably my favorite theme park title.

    When people gripe about buggy alphas and betas and even buggy releases it makes me wonder what game they've ever played that would meet their standards at that stage of development. When we are talking major unaddressed issues multiple years after release like Mortal Online or something then they might have a point.

    SC has it's bugs like any title but it's far from a title like Pathfinder Online that was subpar even for an alpha.
    Yep the doors wouldn't open, players could stand in door ways and block people. It was a mess, yet was fixed relatively fast. Because they had publishers pushing them to fix it.

    SC hasn't that problem, they can leave a game breaking bug as long as they wish. No one is behind them pushing them to get things running correctly. 

    Just pointing out it's a little unfair to compare. When both are run differently from the top down.
    I've thought about that quite often recently.

    The releases today are stellar compared to 10 years ago. I recall releases with servers being down for 2-3 days and struggling for a stable connection a week after. It was also not uncommon for something acting out during the registration/installation, needing customer service to sort you out manually before you could even play.

    I don't think this applies to Star Citizen though. It's a pre-release game. I think those are mainly judged by the number of features delivered per a unit of time. Server stability and bugs are less important for those games - at least when it comes to the public's perception.

    You can even see that on the Steam Forums. That's often the most toxic of places in terms of feedback. Games like The Guild 3, which was released last week in an incredibly buggy state, is getting some positive reviews (I think mixed overall) - most of the positive ones are praising that the developer has released updates on a daily basis since release. Compare this to games which update the game once every 3-6 months (or perhaps even less), albeit presenting a much more complete experience already. Those games often get terrible reviews, stating the fact that the developer is not releasing much new content.
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member RarePosts: 837
    Alverant said:
    They're way behind on what they promised and keep finding excuses to ask for more money. Is that deserving of hate? To some probably. But since I never bought into it, I can just sit back and laaaaugh at all the fanboys.
    Are they? I think not lol, that's why they keep getting more and more money. We get to play and laugh at those outside who can't grasp what's being accomplished. Double the fun actually.
  • IkedaIkeda Largo, FLMember RarePosts: 2,620
    Babuinix said:
    Are they? I think not lol, that's why they keep getting more and more money. We get to play and laugh at those outside who can't grasp what's being accomplished. Double the fun actually.
    Have fun with your virtual pooping and needing to eat in game.  FFS, just deliver what was promised.  No more, no less.  This perpetual "pre-release" is for the birds.  Wish I would never have given $150 to these clowns.
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member RarePosts: 837
    Ikeda said:
    Babuinix said:
    Are they? I think not lol, that's why they keep getting more and more money. We get to play and laugh at those outside who can't grasp what's being accomplished. Double the fun actually.
    Have fun with your virtual pooping and needing to eat in game.  FFS, just deliver what was promised.  No more, no less.  This perpetual "pre-release" is for the birds.  Wish I would never have given $150 to these clowns.
    I'm already having fun with what the game offers and yes CIG is delivering what they "promised" and much, much more. You should stick to released titles and not back early titles if you are not willing to wait. 
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