Pantheon doing level scaling? Seriously?

Aelious

I think being able to play with a friend who's new, or you and another have different play availabilities, makes mentoring a great idea and should be a part of any MMO.... especially one with an emphisis on long term progression.

A system in which you move through zones, level, and never go back (except to mass kill for a certain item for a twink while lowbies wait for you to leave) is far more of a themepark system than having the option to be less powerful to play with anyone below you. These are MMOs, this one specifically one that emphisises social engagement, so why would the developers NOT ensure within reason the most amount of people can play with eachother?

lahnmir

I must admit I dislike fullblown scaling both up and down. I do think a bit of mentoring can go a long way, as long as its down only. And even then a bit of restriction might be in order, only be able to downscale a certain amount of levels for instance, or downscale only your abilities or level they have.

The best solution for enpty low level zones is to make sure all these zones have some high level content too, like a pvp arena, valuable gatherables or high level dungeon.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Shaigh

The worst thing about level-progression muitplayers is that they do a great job at preventing you to play with your friends and your guild. Mentoring systems tries to alleviate that issue.

Its not a perfect solution but its far better than the alternative which is having to wait for everyone to reach cap for teaming up.

Gyva02

Just going to throw this out there. I think if a substantially higher level character has mentored down to join a group with lower level characters I think the loot drops acquired should have lesser stats unless the mentoring mechanics are truly going to reduce the higher player down.  

If the higher individual has the "Super flaming Sword of Awesomeness" is the mentoring system just going to just drop a % of this already bad ass sword or is it going to reduce it down to something the low levels would only have access too? 

If the mentoring system is only going to drop a % of the higher players uber weapons and gear that is unobtainable to lower characters and allow this group to kick puppies I think to keep things a little more fair the drops acquired need to have a stat reduction and reward groups who complete this content with no mentor with the better drops.

That is unless the mentoring system is going to remove this higher individuals OP gear completely and replace it with only something the group's level could possibly have. Better yet the mentored individual gets an average of the groups lower players gear that is already worn.

Mendel

Gyva02 said:

Just going to throw this out there. I think if a substantially higher level character has mentored down to join a group with lower level characters I think the loot drops acquired should have lesser stats unless the mentoring mechanics are truly going to reduce the higher player down.  

If the higher individual has the "Super flaming Sword of Awesomeness" is the mentoring system just going to just drop a % of this already bad ass sword or is it going to reduce it down to something the low levels would only have access too? 

If the mentoring system is only going to drop a % of the higher players uber weapons and gear that is unobtainable to lower characters and allow this group to kick puppies I think to keep things a little more fair the drops acquired need to have a stat reduction and reward groups who complete this content with no mentor with the better drops.

That is unless the mentoring system is going to remove this higher individuals OP gear completely and replace it with only something the group's level could possibly have. Better yet the mentored individual gets an average of the groups lower players gear that is already worn.

Any which way they choose to pursue, I think there is a very strong likelihood that this mentoring system will face challenges.

I like your idea of averaging the higher level player with the lower level players.  I'd suggest extending that to include HPs, AC, Mana, spells and intrinsic to-hit chances due to level.  Otherwise, the mentor isn't facing any real danger.  I'd even put the mentor at the minimal levels of each for the entire party.  That would shift the focus from 'the mentor will do it for us' to 'there is another hand to help out' approach.

Even a system like that is relatively easily countered.  Like having 5 max levels 'mentoring' a single highly twinked level 5.  Countering all this could be done, but how much work should a development team put into preventing abusing a system that is only allowing 'powerleveling' over actually grouping with other level 5s (and maybe making new friends)?

I think mentoring may be an overrated idea with limited applicability.   No matter how I envision it, I can't see there being any real benefit for the 'mentor', only a tangible (and potentially overpowering) effect for the 'student'.   I'm not familiar with the functioning VG system that @Kilsin referenced  (I only experienced the broken version), but I think the development team's time could be better used to develop more interesting and universally useful mechanisms than a mentoring system.

MadFrenchie

Mendel said:

Gyva02 said:

Just going to throw this out there. I think if a substantially higher level character has mentored down to join a group with lower level characters I think the loot drops acquired should have lesser stats unless the mentoring mechanics are truly going to reduce the higher player down.  

If the higher individual has the "Super flaming Sword of Awesomeness" is the mentoring system just going to just drop a % of this already bad ass sword or is it going to reduce it down to something the low levels would only have access too? 

If the mentoring system is only going to drop a % of the higher players uber weapons and gear that is unobtainable to lower characters and allow this group to kick puppies I think to keep things a little more fair the drops acquired need to have a stat reduction and reward groups who complete this content with no mentor with the better drops.

That is unless the mentoring system is going to remove this higher individuals OP gear completely and replace it with only something the group's level could possibly have. Better yet the mentored individual gets an average of the groups lower players gear that is already worn.

Any which way they choose to pursue, I think there is a very strong likelihood that this mentoring system will face challenges.

I like your idea of averaging the higher level player with the lower level players.  I'd suggest extending that to include HPs, AC, Mana, spells and intrinsic to-hit chances due to level.  Otherwise, the mentor isn't facing any real danger.  I'd even put the mentor at the minimal levels of each for the entire party.  That would shift the focus from 'the mentor will do it for us' to 'there is another hand to help out' approach.

Even a system like that is relatively easily countered.  Like having 5 max levels 'mentoring' a single highly twinked level 5.  Countering all this could be done, but how much work should a development team put into preventing abusing a system that is only allowing 'powerleveling' over actually grouping with other level 5s (and maybe making new friends)?

I think mentoring may be an overrated idea with limited applicability.   No matter how I envision it, I can't see there being any real benefit for the 'mentor', only a tangible (and potentially overpowering) effect for the 'student'.   I'm not familiar with the functioning VG system that @Kilsin referenced  (I only experienced the broken version), but I think the development team's time could be better used to develop more interesting and universally useful mechanisms than a mentoring system.

Again, the implementation seems to matter more in my opinion.

Level scaling is simply an extension of the mentoring system; had ESO not implemented the zone sets, there still wouldn't be any incentive for high level players to hit the lowbie zones again once they attained the skyshards from that area.  There would be no benefit.

In the same vein, you have to create an incentive for the mentor to make it a worthwhile endeavor.  Earning mentor points that can be redeemed for items or materials, traded as a currency, etc..  Simply slapping level scaling onto a game won't provide a large incentive for players to revisit lowbie zones.

Gyva02

Mendel said:

Gyva02 said:

Just going to throw this out there. I think if a substantially higher level character has mentored down to join a group with lower level characters I think the loot drops acquired should have lesser stats unless the mentoring mechanics are truly going to reduce the higher player down.  

If the higher individual has the "Super flaming Sword of Awesomeness" is the mentoring system just going to just drop a % of this already bad ass sword or is it going to reduce it down to something the low levels would only have access too? 

If the mentoring system is only going to drop a % of the higher players uber weapons and gear that is unobtainable to lower characters and allow this group to kick puppies I think to keep things a little more fair the drops acquired need to have a stat reduction and reward groups who complete this content with no mentor with the better drops.

That is unless the mentoring system is going to remove this higher individuals OP gear completely and replace it with only something the group's level could possibly have. Better yet the mentored individual gets an average of the groups lower players gear that is already worn.

I like your idea of averaging the higher level player with the lower level players.  I'd suggest extending that to include HPs, AC, Mana, spells and intrinsic to-hit chances due to level.  

Yes this is what I meant to write, a complete average across the board of the existing group members before the mentor joined. That way things always stayed fair for the groups completing the same content with no mentor.

But if the mentor system can't do that then nerf the drops as you should not be rewarded equally for having an advantage over other players with no mentor.  

MadFrenchie

Torval said:

MadFrenchie said:

Mendel said:

Gyva02 said:

Just going to throw this out there. I think if a substantially higher level character has mentored down to join a group with lower level characters I think the loot drops acquired should have lesser stats unless the mentoring mechanics are truly going to reduce the higher player down.  

If the higher individual has the "Super flaming Sword of Awesomeness" is the mentoring system just going to just drop a % of this already bad ass sword or is it going to reduce it down to something the low levels would only have access too? 

If the mentoring system is only going to drop a % of the higher players uber weapons and gear that is unobtainable to lower characters and allow this group to kick puppies I think to keep things a little more fair the drops acquired need to have a stat reduction and reward groups who complete this content with no mentor with the better drops.

That is unless the mentoring system is going to remove this higher individuals OP gear completely and replace it with only something the group's level could possibly have. Better yet the mentored individual gets an average of the groups lower players gear that is already worn.

Any which way they choose to pursue, I think there is a very strong likelihood that this mentoring system will face challenges.

I like your idea of averaging the higher level player with the lower level players.  I'd suggest extending that to include HPs, AC, Mana, spells and intrinsic to-hit chances due to level.  Otherwise, the mentor isn't facing any real danger.  I'd even put the mentor at the minimal levels of each for the entire party.  That would shift the focus from 'the mentor will do it for us' to 'there is another hand to help out' approach.

Even a system like that is relatively easily countered.  Like having 5 max levels 'mentoring' a single highly twinked level 5.  Countering all this could be done, but how much work should a development team put into preventing abusing a system that is only allowing 'powerleveling' over actually grouping with other level 5s (and maybe making new friends)?

I think mentoring may be an overrated idea with limited applicability.   No matter how I envision it, I can't see there being any real benefit for the 'mentor', only a tangible (and potentially overpowering) effect for the 'student'.   I'm not familiar with the functioning VG system that @Kilsin referenced  (I only experienced the broken version), but I think the development team's time could be better used to develop more interesting and universally useful mechanisms than a mentoring system.

Again, the implementation seems to matter more in my opinion.

Level scaling is simply an extension of the mentoring system; had ESO not implemented the zone sets, there still wouldn't be any incentive for high level players to hit the lowbie zones again once they attained the skyshards from that area.  There would be no benefit.

In the same vein, you have to create an incentive for the mentor to make it a worthwhile endeavor.  Earning mentor points that can be redeemed for items or materials, traded as a currency, etc..  Simply slapping level scaling onto a game won't provide a large incentive for players to revisit lowbie zones.

Zone sets have nothing to do with scaling. They're there as a reward no matter your level. Scaling just makes them relevant. If on level zones in any game didn't provide rewards no one would go there either, regardless of their level. Scaling applies to all content, not just character and mob level. It is in the loot rewards and crafting materials (which ESO hasn't done that great of a job making scale well).

And again, that's the details of the implementation, not the system itself.  Choosing a mentor or full level scaling system doesn't preclude scaling loot or dungeon rewards in any way.  ESO isn't unique in scaling loot rewards, either.  I've mentioned elsewhere that I've noticed both zone level and character level rewards in GW2 while in lowbie zones.

MadFrenchie

Torval said:

MadFrenchie said:

Torval said:

MadFrenchie said:

Mendel said:

Gyva02 said:

Just going to throw this out there. I think if a substantially higher level character has mentored down to join a group with lower level characters I think the loot drops acquired should have lesser stats unless the mentoring mechanics are truly going to reduce the higher player down.  

If the higher individual has the "Super flaming Sword of Awesomeness" is the mentoring system just going to just drop a % of this already bad ass sword or is it going to reduce it down to something the low levels would only have access too? 

If the mentoring system is only going to drop a % of the higher players uber weapons and gear that is unobtainable to lower characters and allow this group to kick puppies I think to keep things a little more fair the drops acquired need to have a stat reduction and reward groups who complete this content with no mentor with the better drops.

That is unless the mentoring system is going to remove this higher individuals OP gear completely and replace it with only something the group's level could possibly have. Better yet the mentored individual gets an average of the groups lower players gear that is already worn.

Any which way they choose to pursue, I think there is a very strong likelihood that this mentoring system will face challenges.

I like your idea of averaging the higher level player with the lower level players.  I'd suggest extending that to include HPs, AC, Mana, spells and intrinsic to-hit chances due to level.  Otherwise, the mentor isn't facing any real danger.  I'd even put the mentor at the minimal levels of each for the entire party.  That would shift the focus from 'the mentor will do it for us' to 'there is another hand to help out' approach.

Even a system like that is relatively easily countered.  Like having 5 max levels 'mentoring' a single highly twinked level 5.  Countering all this could be done, but how much work should a development team put into preventing abusing a system that is only allowing 'powerleveling' over actually grouping with other level 5s (and maybe making new friends)?

I think mentoring may be an overrated idea with limited applicability.   No matter how I envision it, I can't see there being any real benefit for the 'mentor', only a tangible (and potentially overpowering) effect for the 'student'.   I'm not familiar with the functioning VG system that @Kilsin referenced  (I only experienced the broken version), but I think the development team's time could be better used to develop more interesting and universally useful mechanisms than a mentoring system.

Again, the implementation seems to matter more in my opinion.

Level scaling is simply an extension of the mentoring system; had ESO not implemented the zone sets, there still wouldn't be any incentive for high level players to hit the lowbie zones again once they attained the skyshards from that area.  There would be no benefit.

In the same vein, you have to create an incentive for the mentor to make it a worthwhile endeavor.  Earning mentor points that can be redeemed for items or materials, traded as a currency, etc..  Simply slapping level scaling onto a game won't provide a large incentive for players to revisit lowbie zones.

Zone sets have nothing to do with scaling. They're there as a reward no matter your level. Scaling just makes them relevant. If on level zones in any game didn't provide rewards no one would go there either, regardless of their level. Scaling applies to all content, not just character and mob level. It is in the loot rewards and crafting materials (which ESO hasn't done that great of a job making scale well).

And again, that's the details of the implementation, not the system itself.  Choosing a mentor or full level scaling system doesn't preclude scaling loot or dungeon rewards in any way.  ESO isn't unique in scaling loot rewards, either.  I've mentioned elsewhere that I've noticed both zone level and character level rewards in GW2 while in lowbie zones.

GW2 scales loot as well. ESO isn't alone in that, but GW2 world loot isn't very relevant because of the way their progression works. Scaling in GW2 is odd because gear progression is already so horizontal which is why I didn't mention it. But yeah, it totally does too.

I agree that implementation is what matters. Back to the point though is that mentoring traditionally has still trivialized content, providing great P/L and twinking opportunities, with bonuses for xp and loot.

I think that was Gyva's complaint, that while it greatly reduces challenge it also provides as good or better rewards than filling out a group of on-level players. So if mentoring is going to reduce challenge in a game that is supposed to be about old school challenge and group cooperation the rewards (and I added xp) should be lowered to compensate.

That's all hypothetical though. How well it works and is balanced against a normal group won't be apparent until they open the servers for testing. Right now the good and bad are just conjecture I'm making based on existing implementations and games I've played.

Agreed.  I can't disagree with you or @Gyva02's thoughts on the difficulty of content for scaled down toons, either.  I'm always wary of implementing systems that discourage the sort of new to old player interaction that scaling/mentoring systems provide, but don't think it should leave an avenue for power grinding, either.  That's not healthy for the game.

I'd love to see the scale effectively ignore equipment in lieu of placing the scaled down player at the same level as the average level-appropriate toon to avoid such advantages.  It's especially important if you wish to keep lower level mats/items relevant (while avoiding the aforementioned power grinding), which I also think is important for modern MMORPGs.

Mendel

Torval said:

<snip>

I agree that implementation is what matters. Back to the point though is that mentoring traditionally has still trivialized content, providing great P/L and twinking opportunities, with bonuses for xp and loot.

<snip>

Looking beyond the specific mentoring/scaling issue, when is the community that plays these games (and pays for them) going to NOT accept some feature just because it has always been done that way?  There has been such a cry for a reversion to an old-school game, and a building impatience (judging from community responses to threads) that the Pantheon players appear ready to accept anything that VR issues and calls it Pantheon.  Reincarnating past solutions has the possibility of reintroducing past problems, but that becomes a more likely scenario as the community's collective patience wanes.

Dvora

Shinami said:

wish they could just make an MMORPG where 0 character levels exist, so everyone gears based on the environment of the area to keep the game relevant in all areas. In other words, instead of focusing on all the gears players will have to work to get in order to play the game, the developers could focus on making each area interesting (and even sandboxed)....

Level Scaling keeps my immersion. 
Prevents a single player from completely dominated a newb zone. 

Oh well. :P 

Well then, go to any game with level scaling, kill one mob in every zone, and call it good.  You've done all the game has to do at that point, experienced all the content.  Every mob is the same just different grpx.

Dvora

Torval said:

This thread speaks volumes:
-- MMO gamers don't like innovation no matter what they say
-- MMO gamers don't like challenge as much as they claim
-- MMO gamers don't value immersion as much as they claim either

Without level scaling characters trivialize mobs at the 8th or 9th level delta. So all old content is easy and trivialized. So that throws the love of challenge argument out the window. The amusing irony here is that this sort of level disparity is what will make soloing possible.

Don't worry. I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. Arena Net can barely do it. ZoS is the only studio that's done it well. It's not easy. I'm pretty sure they'll go for the easy out which is a downscaling "mentor" system. Talk about a lack of ambition and imagination. I hope that's not true, but I suspect it's so.

They've already said no level scaling here, the person in another thread I'd heard it from was wrong apparently.  Dang good thing.

As far as your nonsensical argument about the "challenge argument out the window"... That is weak, generalizes everyone and could only be true if there is no reward, increased exp etc for doing mobs above your lvl, and no decrease in reward for doing mobs that are too low. 

What game on its own lately is challenging with equal level mobs?  None I can think of.  So with scaling they take away your ability to find something more challenging, and usually if you are with a friend, being grouped is just counter productive.  That is one of the worst things about lvl scaling for me.  It takes away the reward and much of the desire to group.  Running dungeons should not be the only group content, and never was until more recently.  Running with a friend or two in ESO just felt like pointless wandering while mobs fall over beside you.  Why even help, just stick on autofollow on one person.  If you each hit a hotkey every now and then you'll be fine

Add some more difficult (level scaled) mobs you say?  Maybe ESO does this, never really noticed it.  That just trivializes the regular mobs tho, for those guys that like an actual challenge or like to run with a friend or two.  Also doesnt change the fact that I can kill a few mobs, then run through every zone and then feel I've done and seen everything.  All the mobs are the same why bother?

Dvora

Torval said:

svann said:

Torval said:

 I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. .

I dont know how we can make any simpler. 

They arent doing level scaling.

Stay in school, bro.

If you read the entire post you'd see that I said so in the part you edited out so you could try and have an instructional relevant point in this thread. You failed.

Here, let me spell out what I already said to you in really simple terms.

They aren't doing level scaling, they'll probably do mentoring. I seriously doubt they could pull off level scaling because only one team has done it well. So they're going for the old mentoring. Great, that's about as interesting as paint drying.

Wtf is difficult about level scaling?  Make all mobs the same with bit a variation here and there.  Paste meaningless level numbers on character sheets, armor sets, maybe the mobs too, done!   It is laughable that you think lvl scaling is harder to pull off than a balanced progression in a non level scaling mmo.  

I will give you that it is harder to make a game that doesnt suck with lvl scaling, cause that shit is impossible.

MrMelGibson

lahnmir said:

Wizardry said:

So levels but no levels ..makes NO SENSE.
This would be an idea i 100% would not play,i want the world to have an identity and not some endless loop to become a dungeon looter.
Ever heard of the great White Dragon,,oh yeah he is that really tough creature our level 75 group had a tough time beating,,oh wait we just beat him with our level 1 group....sigh.

It turns every last creature/npc into a level 1 meaningless entity,just some target for loot.

Fortunately for you, they are not doing that then. You could have known by reading the thread you know... but off you went on some train of thought/verbal diarreah post without bothering to look what was going on in the first place.

Surprise, surprise.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

That's kind of what he does.  Reminds me of when I worked at a nursing home.  Always some grumpy old man talking to himself.  No one but he understood the conversation lol.

Dullahan

Miss the days of "You're in our world now". Now we just dispense with any semblance of realism or rules at the drop of a hat.

If you want to go to a low level area or play with low level players, roll an alt.

Aelious

Dullahan said:

Miss the days of "You're in our world now". Now we just dispense with any semblance of realism or rules at the drop of a hat.

If you want to go to a low level area or play with low level players, roll an alt.

The standard system of "experience gain to level" in an MMO is already unrealistic. The whole "roll an alt" thing is a way to go and for those who want to do that, since this mentor system is voluntary, they are more than welcome to do so. Those who wish to continue playing their main with more versatility can also do so with a mentor system. There are far more tactical advantages for the player community if this system is implemented. The only disadvantages I've seen mentioned so far are merely about personal preference and, since this is again a voluntary feature, has no tactical relevance.

Edit: The "your in our world now" idea is one I share agreement with but is in reference to how dangerous the world is. I don't see this being an issue if the abilities are scaled back appropriately.

kjempff

Read the official reply from Killsin on page 1, they are doing a mentoring system. (OP you should change the title to reflect facts)

- Full level scaling is scaling all content to the power of a player, I guess that is how ESO does it? (never got more than 10 hours into that game)
- Downscaling is scaling player power down to match content, like GW2 does it.
- Mentoring is downscaling player power to match a player in group and content/rewards stays the same, like Eq2, Vanguard.

I hated mentoring in Eq2 and also in Vanguard, and I have not heard any arguments that made me reconsider yet. It solves a problem that friends outlevel eachother sometimes. I can't tell how big a problem this is, personally I used it once or twice over a few years of playing Eq2/Vg and it didn't really work well; I didn't notice mentoring being used very much, probably because it is mostly a feature for closed groups who doesn't interact with the community anyway. 

I find mentoring to be gamey and immersion breaking, and also messing a little with progression and feeling of accomplishment (Immersion, progression, feeling of accomplishment are my absolute top priorities for a mmo). Ok, mentoring is not a deal breaker because I can just avoid using it, just a negative on the list; full level scaling might be.
You can try to justify scaling by giving examples of things that are not realistic such as levels or lvl 100 bears, but to me it does not compare to a direct interference with "fundamental world rules" as manipulating the core of your character/gear is.

Aelious said:
The only disadvantages I've seen mentioned so far are merely about personal preference and, since this is again a voluntary feature, has no tactical relevance.

This is kind of the same argument with cheating, that goes: You can just choose to not do it and then it doesn't effect you. But the argument is not valid, in a multiplayer game you cannot choose to not be effected. Just like cheating, scaling is a direct interference with the rules that should form the virtual reality. This is very much a difference in how you play your mmo, is it a game to you or do you try to imagine your character in a virtual world.

Dullahan said:

Miss the days of "You're in our world now". Now we just dispense with any semblance of realism or rules at the drop of a hat.

If you want to go to a low level area or play with low level players, roll an alt.

Nice @Dullahan finally something we can agree completely on

Aelious

kjempff said:

Aelious said:
The only disadvantages I've seen mentioned so far are merely about personal preference and, since this is again a voluntary feature, has no tactical relevance.

This is kind of the same argument with cheating, that goes: You can just choose to not do it and then it doesn't effect you. But the argument is not valid, in a multiplayer game you cannot choose to not be effected. Just like cheating, scaling is a direct interference with the rules that should form the virtual reality. This is very much a difference in how you play your mmo, is it a game to you or do you try to imagine your character in a virtual world.

Comparing this mentoring system to cheating? That's a stretch.

I am interested in how you believe this will effect the player community. I've seen a lot of people say that it will... but not explain how.

Akulas

Be good if you can scale down to kill a raid mob that would be grey and you would get no xp for.

kjempff

Aelious said:

kjempff said:

Aelious said:
The only disadvantages I've seen mentioned so far are merely about personal preference and, since this is again a voluntary feature, has no tactical relevance.

This is kind of the same argument with cheating, that goes: You can just choose to not do it and then it doesn't effect you. But the argument is not valid, in a multiplayer game you cannot choose to not be effected. Just like cheating, scaling is a direct interference with the rules that should form the virtual reality. This is very much a difference in how you play your mmo, is it a game to you or do you try to imagine your character in a virtual world.

Comparing this mentoring system to cheating? That's a stretch.

I am interested in how you believe this will effect the player community. I've seen a lot of people say that it will... but not explain how.

When comparing scaling to cheating, I am only refering to how both are changing basic rules of the world.

I did not say anything about player community, and neither can I think of anything about mentoring that would effect it; So I can't answer that question. I am not sure how to be more clear about what issues I have with mentoring(scaling). Maybe immersion and concept of virtual world are forgotten concepts? Seem like I often get misunderstood when I refer to it. 

gervaise1

kjempff said:

Aelious said:

kjempff said:

Aelious said:
The only disadvantages I've seen mentioned so far are merely about personal preference and, since this is again a voluntary feature, has no tactical relevance.

This is kind of the same argument with cheating, that goes: You can just choose to not do it and then it doesn't effect you. But the argument is not valid, in a multiplayer game you cannot choose to not be effected. Just like cheating, scaling is a direct interference with the rules that should form the virtual reality. This is very much a difference in how you play your mmo, is it a game to you or do you try to imagine your character in a virtual world.

Comparing this mentoring system to cheating? That's a stretch.

I am interested in how you believe this will effect the player community. I've seen a lot of people say that it will... but not explain how.

When comparing scaling to cheating, I am only refering to how both are changing basic rules of the world.

I did not say anything about player community, and neither can I think of anything about mentoring that would effect it; So I can't answer that question. I am not sure how to be more clear about what issues I have with mentoring(scaling). Maybe immersion and concept of virtual world are forgotten concepts? Seem like I often get misunderstood when I refer to it. 

The "basic rules" of the Pantheon world are whatever the developers implement and in this case the "basic rules" are: there will be mentoring.

Maybe its done by magic in the virtual world.

In the real world it is being done because they clearly believe the game is more likely to survive financially. Whether that is the case or not remains to be seen. Mentoring may turn some people off but it may attract others.

And it may depend how its implemented in the wider system. In CoH, for example, quests were only available "on level" and could not be done once you out leveled them. (No trivial easy mode).  Finding a lower level player who was prepared to accept mentoring was the only way to accept such quests.

Kyleran

kjempff said:

Aelious said:

kjempff said:

Aelious said:
The only disadvantages I've seen mentioned so far are merely about personal preference and, since this is again a voluntary feature, has no tactical relevance.

This is kind of the same argument with cheating, that goes: You can just choose to not do it and then it doesn't effect you. But the argument is not valid, in a multiplayer game you cannot choose to not be effected. Just like cheating, scaling is a direct interference with the rules that should form the virtual reality. This is very much a difference in how you play your mmo, is it a game to you or do you try to imagine your character in a virtual world.

Comparing this mentoring system to cheating? That's a stretch.

I am interested in how you believe this will effect the player community. I've seen a lot of people say that it will... but not explain how.

When comparing scaling to cheating, I am only refering to how both are changing basic rules of the world.

I did not say anything about player community, and neither can I think of anything about mentoring that would effect it; So I can't answer that question. I am not sure how to be more clear about what issues I have with mentoring(scaling). Maybe immersion and concept of virtual world are forgotten concepts? Seem like I often get misunderstood when I refer to it. 

While I can envision scenarios where mentoring could interfere with community building I can't fathom how other players participating in a mentorong system while you ignore it negatively impacts your personal immersion or disrupts the virtual world.

Seems like the more traditional power leveling model is far more disruptive, I recall being a level 35 in a group of 45 plus and being completely useless, couldn't even land a blow so mentoring improves on that for sure.

I've always had less time than most to play MMORPGs and most of my guildmates rapidly pull ahead leaving me to solo alone behind them.

Im fact my gaming friends have a running joke that I always quit their guilds I'm in every game we start together which is totally accurate, as after they all race ahead I end up grouping with other players progressing more at my pace and joining their guilds instead.

Mentoring might give my friends and I a bit more incentive to play together, especially since many games don't well support power leveling these days.

Aelious

kjempff said:

Aelious said:

kjempff said:

Aelious said:
The only disadvantages I've seen mentioned so far are merely about personal preference and, since this is again a voluntary feature, has no tactical relevance.

This is kind of the same argument with cheating, that goes: You can just choose to not do it and then it doesn't effect you. But the argument is not valid, in a multiplayer game you cannot choose to not be effected. Just like cheating, scaling is a direct interference with the rules that should form the virtual reality. This is very much a difference in how you play your mmo, is it a game to you or do you try to imagine your character in a virtual world.

Comparing this mentoring system to cheating? That's a stretch.

I am interested in how you believe this will effect the player community. I've seen a lot of people say that it will... but not explain how.

When comparing scaling to cheating, I am only refering to how both are changing basic rules of the world.

I did not say anything about player community, and neither can I think of anything about mentoring that would effect it; So I can't answer that question. I am not sure how to be more clear about what issues I have with mentoring(scaling). Maybe immersion and concept of virtual world are forgotten concepts? Seem like I often get misunderstood when I refer to it. 

When one cheats they are manipulating the current rules and receive ill-gotten gains. In this case Visionary is creating the rules and even if people don't use mentoring, they will not be detrimented by comparison. In fact, if two players are level 50 and one is mentoring a level 30, from a power perspective the mentor is detrimenting themselves, not the other way around.

I'm not going to tell people how they should enjoy or feel about playing a game. In this case though the only arguments I've seen are single to that person's preference, such as yours about immersion and concept of a virtual world. I respect that, and I also value my general feeling when playing a game, MMO or otherwise. In this case a mentoring system would not be immersion-breaking for me personally. The 'experience to level' system in most MMOs is so simple and immersion-breaking already . As Kyleran said above, there are factors outside individual people's internal feelings that make mentoring advantageous. Given its group-based dynamic, social focused and possible low-but-dedicated population, a mentoring system is brilliant for Pantheon IMO.

MadFrenchie

I was under the impression the mentor would be downscaled, not the lower level player boosted.  I'm not a fan of boosting the lower level player.  Am I understanding the planned mentoring system correctly?

Sovrath

MadFrenchie said:

I was under the impression the mentor would be downscaled, not the lower level player boosted.  I'm not a fan of boosting the lower level player.  Am I understanding the planned mentoring system correctly?

From Kilsin:

Kilsin said:

We are not instancing or level scaling, we will have a Mentor system that allows players of different levels to lower themselves to the lowest level player to group up and play together at appropriate levels, it is optional and just a way for high level players to play with low level friends/family and new players without steamrolling everything.