Pantheon doing level scaling? Seriously?

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,101
    Sovrath said:

    I like the idea of entering a zone and having something huge and very dangerous out there looking for me.


    This floored me, for the wrong reasons!! XD
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  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,975
    So levels but no levels ..makes NO SENSE.
    This would be an idea i 100% would not play,i want the world to have an identity and not some endless loop to become a dungeon looter.
    Ever heard of the great White Dragon,,oh yeah he is that really tough creature our level 75 group had a tough time beating,,oh wait we just beat him with our level 1 group....sigh.

    It turns every last creature/npc into a level 1 meaningless entity,just some target for loot.
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  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,613
    DMKano said:
    The OP is mistaken about Pantheon.

    I abhor level scaling in PvE, its the main reason I cant stand GW2 and ESO PvE.

    Any MMO that has level scaling.... I have zero interest.

    Good thing Pantheon isnt doing that crap.

    I am a huge fan of swarming and mass killing lower level areas when you get mad gear and are in godmode basically.

    I believe that level scaling is an anathema to RPGs.  Hate it.  I too hated GW2 and ESO.

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  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 887
    Wizardry said:
    So levels but no levels ..makes NO SENSE.
    This would be an idea i 100% would not play,i want the world to have an identity and not some endless loop to become a dungeon looter.
    Ever heard of the great White Dragon,,oh yeah he is that really tough creature our level 75 group had a tough time beating,,oh wait we just beat him with our level 1 group....sigh.

    It turns every last creature/npc into a level 1 meaningless entity,just some target for loot.
    Fortunately for you, they are not doing that then. You could have known by reading the thread you know... but off you went on some train of thought/verbal diarreah post without bothering to look what was going on in the first place.

    Surprise, surprise.

    /Cheers,
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  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,665
    edited September 14
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    What in the actual shite is that?

    Worst
    Design
    Idea
    Ever
    Post edited by DMKano on
    deniterIselinConstantineMerusXarkoKyleranpantaroSovrathwaynejr2dcutbi001Mikeha
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,665
    Scorchien said:
    DMKano said:
    The OP is mistaken about Pantheon.

    I abhor level scaling in PvE, its the main reason I cant stand GW2 and ESO PvE.

    Any MMO that has level scaling.... I have zero interest.

    Good thing Pantheon isnt doing that crap.

    I am a huge fan of swarming and mass killing lower level areas when you get mad gear and are in godmode basically.
      Yea , cause kickin kittens is fun ..........


    A level 1 mob with 10HP shouldn't even be a factor to a level 110 player with million HP and 10K DPS 

    Sorry.

    I fart and should kill half the zone at that point.

    Level scaling is absolute shite
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,780
    edited September 14
    This is a horrible idea. Not only does it remind players of the rampant themepark hand holding these days but it completely destroys immersion. Want to get stronger so you can take on the storm giants? No problem! Just run there at level 1 and kill them.
    Never bring in levels and immersion in the same sentence. 

    In one zone you beat the snot out of dragons and you move to the next only to get owned by a wolf. There is zero logic in that, while a pack of wolves can kill an adult human it is rare and a sword wielding plate bearing human would still have a good chance, even with limited training. A huge dragon that can burn down towns should logically be harder.

    Not to mention that fighting 20 inexperienced people alone would be incredible hard if not impossible no matter how experienced you are. With levels that is usually easy if they are lvl 1 and you are maxed out.

    Besides, I assume we are talking about downward scaling, not upward. That will probably mean that you are still rather powerful when downleveled but can't just steamroll an entire zone (GW2 does this and it works fine there).

    I am all for downleveling as long as it is done right.
    Post edited by Loke666 on
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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,908
    DMKano said:
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    Ok you're either trolling or you haven't actually played ESO since the One Tamriel patch lol.

    The way it actually works is when you have a noob weapon and no armor that fight takes you 30 seconds and you almost died twice but it's doable.

    When you're level 110 the same fight takes you 3 seconds and there was never any chance of dying.

    That's how it actually works. There's still progression and power gain. What there isn't is gathering 20 of those mobs and killing them all in one AOE shot. 
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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,101
    DMKano said:
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    What in the actual shite is that?

    Worst
    Design
    Idea
    Ever
    Even worse than that is to be the level capped full geared dude and having a hard time hitting that mob then see a level 3 newbie having an easier time than you do. 

    That is the equivalent of not only your date has a penis, but also hers is bigger than yours. 
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  • deniterdeniter KouvolaMember UncommonPosts: 1,110
    I still think this 'mentoring system' has no place in any seriously taken MMORPG. Do you really want a situation where you fight in light armor with a wooden stick in your weaker hand only because you met someone you know that is not as well trained as you are?

    Playing together with friends is nice, no doubt, but if the cost for doing so creates a situation that doesn't make sense you can pretty much just design your typical themepark BS with 'everyone plays' attitude.

    Preventing power leveling would be a goal worth to pursuit. So would be stopping instance boosting (if Pantheon had instances, that is). But deliberate power decrease in group play is not.

    "Oh, i know these ogres want to kill us all, but this wouldn't be any fun if i just one-shot all of them. Tell you what, i'll fight with my dagger and my left hand only so that our lives can still hang by a thread, okay?"
    Mendel
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member UncommonPosts: 197
    Yeah.... as Loke666 says, the standard MMORPG  practice of ever increasing character power combined with a procession of areas of ever increasing static difficulty is contrary to any realistic immersion. Real worlds just don't work like that, and that approach just leads to dead zones as the population shifts over the life of a game.

    The older style of linear progression from zone to zone sounds a lot more theme park than scaling systems that let one adventure organically.

    I've played both GW2 and ESO and each works fine in their way.

    In these games the more developed character will always have more depth and breadth than those less so, so the concept of increased power over time is preserved, just in a more flexible fashion that better retains the value of all content for all players.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,665
    edited September 14
    Iselin said:


    That's how it actually works. There's still progression and power gain. What there isn't is gathering 20 of those mobs and killing them all in one AOE shot. 


    Wasn't talking about ESO specifically - was talking about "general idea" of how level scaling works.

    Yeah - not being able to one-shot 20 low level mobs at max level, that's a problem for me - heck if I am not nearly one shotting max level non-elites in end game gear - there' s a problem.

    I'd crash people out of the zone when I swarmed in EQ1 - seriously - I'd pull over 100+ mobs and people that didn't have "/hidecorpse all" would lag so bad, some would crash out of the game. (I did it for AA grinding just in case anyone is wondering - and yes these were high enough to give me XP obviously so I was killing within my XP range)

    It's my preference - this is why I love vertical progression games where you go from a wet noodle to a god slayer - power scaling is something I really enjoy. 

    But being artificially scaled down - big no for me.
    Post edited by DMKano on
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,665
    deniter said:
    I still think this 'mentoring system' has no place in any seriously taken MMORPG. Do you really want a situation where you fight in light armor with a wooden stick in your weaker hand only because you met someone you know that is not as well trained as you are?

    Playing together with friends is nice, no doubt, but if the cost for doing so creates a situation that doesn't make sense you can pretty much just design your typical themepark BS with 'everyone plays' attitude.

    Preventing power leveling would be a goal worth to pursuit. So would be stopping instance boosting (if Pantheon had instances, that is). But deliberate power decrease in group play is not.

    "Oh, i know these ogres want to kill us all, but this wouldn't be any fun if i just one-shot all of them. Tell you what, i'll fight with my dagger and my left hand only so that our lives can still hang by a thread, okay?"

    I just power level my friends to near my level - mentoring system is not bad - I just never found any use for it personally in games that had it.
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAMember RarePosts: 2,213
    I would be fine either way but I think Pantheon if using a mentor system over full game scaling.

    I wasnt sure about it in ESO but for that game and for me it is a great addition.

    image

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,240
    DMKano said:
    deniter said:
    I still think this 'mentoring system' has no place in any seriously taken MMORPG. Do you really want a situation where you fight in light armor with a wooden stick in your weaker hand only because you met someone you know that is not as well trained as you are?

    Playing together with friends is nice, no doubt, but if the cost for doing so creates a situation that doesn't make sense you can pretty much just design your typical themepark BS with 'everyone plays' attitude.

    Preventing power leveling would be a goal worth to pursuit. So would be stopping instance boosting (if Pantheon had instances, that is). But deliberate power decrease in group play is not.

    "Oh, i know these ogres want to kill us all, but this wouldn't be any fun if i just one-shot all of them. Tell you what, i'll fight with my dagger and my left hand only so that our lives can still hang by a thread, okay?"

    I just power level my friends to near my level - mentoring system is not bad - I just never found any use for it personally in games that had it.
    I was wondering if Pantheon was going to try and restrict power leveling, anyone know?

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  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,797
    Kilsin said:
    We are not instancing or level scaling, we will have a Mentor system that allows players of different levels to lower themselves to the lowest level player to group up and play together at appropriate levels, it is optional and just a way for high level players to play with low level friends/family and new players without steamrolling everything.
    EQ1 tried to do the exact same thing with the Shroud system.  It was a pretty dismal failure, and broke immersion quite dramatically.   There isn't a description of how it will work, only vagueness.  Will a mentor system be something useful and desirable, or more of a placebo?  I don't know, I won't be able to know how it works until there are reliable reports.  Kilsin should be in a position to maybe have some inside information, but once again reports only marketing pablum.  The single sentence above could easily have been applied to a the Shroud system before it was released, too.

    To anyone following this project, just be prepared for the implementation to be something other than you are expecting.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ShinamiShinami Sacramento, CAMember UncommonPosts: 768
    wish they could just make an MMORPG where 0 character levels exist, so everyone gears based on the environment of the area to keep the game relevant in all areas. In other words, instead of focusing on all the gears players will have to work to get in order to play the game, the developers could focus on making each area interesting (and even sandboxed)....

    Level Scaling keeps my immersion. 
    Prevents a single player from completely dominated a newb zone. 

    Oh well. :P 
  • svannsvann san jose, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,993
    deniter said:
    I still think this 'mentoring system' has no place in any seriously taken MMORPG. Do you really want a situation where you fight in light armor with a wooden stick in your weaker hand only because you met someone you know that is not as well trained as you are?


    Mentoring is a choice.  You dont have to do it.  Almost certainly you can group and not mentor if you want.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,385
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    Ok you're either trolling or you haven't actually played ESO since the One Tamriel patch lol.

    The way it actually works is when you have a noob weapon and no armor that fight takes you 30 seconds and you almost died twice but it's doable.

    When you're level 110 the same fight takes you 3 seconds and there was never any chance of dying.

    That's how it actually works. There's still progression and power gain. What there isn't is gathering 20 of those mobs and killing them all in one AOE shot. 

    Yes, it's surprising how many "authorities" here make comments about games they've either never played at all or only played in the most trivial sense. The important thing when trying to bullshit like this on the forums is to say it like it's a fact which he did.

    The problem is he claims to play the game (mostly Cyrodiil) so he's not unfamiliar with it. He's just outright lying and bullshitting trying to provide his own unique perspective.

    Sorry for the strikethough typo above. The forum software doesn't let you backspace so you can't fix your mistakes, much like how Kano describes level scaling in ESO. I'm not lying. It's my perspective. :smirk:
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  • advokat666advokat666 MuenchenMember UncommonPosts: 70
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    Ok you're either trolling or you haven't actually played ESO since the One Tamriel patch lol.

    The way it actually works is when you have a noob weapon and no armor that fight takes you 30 seconds and you almost died twice but it's doable.

    When you're level 110 the same fight takes you 3 seconds and there was never any chance of dying.

    That's how it actually works. There's still progression and power gain. What there isn't is gathering 20 of those mobs and killing them all in one AOE shot. 

    Maybe he is. I don´t get his point either. Level scaling if made properly is a very good thing for me. The zones are far more populated, everywhere you go you are challenged, ESO did a good job in that. I hate it like in WoW if i go with my 110 char in a low level zone or let´s say a bc raid and bosses die from an auto attack, that is completely stupid. 
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,385
    This thread speaks volumes:
    -- MMO gamers don't like innovation no matter what they say
    -- MMO gamers don't like challenge as much as they claim
    -- MMO gamers don't value immersion as much as they claim either

    Without level scaling characters trivialize mobs at the 8th or 9th level delta. So all old content is easy and trivialized. So that throws the love of challenge argument out the window. The amusing irony here is that this sort of level disparity is what will make soloing possible.

    Don't worry. I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. Arena Net can barely do it. ZoS is the only studio that's done it well. It's not easy. I'm pretty sure they'll go for the easy out which is a downscaling "mentor" system. Talk about a lack of ambition and imagination. I hope that's not true, but I suspect it's so.
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  • coretex666coretex666 PragueMember RarePosts: 3,207
    Torval said:
    This thread speaks volumes:
    -- MMO gamers don't like innovation no matter what they say
    -- MMO gamers don't like challenge as much as they claim
    -- MMO gamers don't value immersion as much as they claim either

    Without level scaling characters trivialize mobs at the 8th or 9th level delta. So all old content is easy and trivialized. So that throws the love of challenge argument out the window. The amusing irony here is that this sort of level disparity is what will make soloing possible.

    Don't worry. I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. Arena Net can barely do it. ZoS is the only studio that's done it well. It's not easy. I'm pretty sure they'll go for the easy out which is a downscaling "mentor" system. Talk about a lack of ambition and imagination. I hope that's not true, but I suspect it's so.
    I believe it does not apply generally that all old content becomes trivialized.

    The way I see it, without level scaling, only specific and relatively weak monsters / PVE enemies inevitably become easy and trivialized once your character becomes more powerful which I, personally, consider reasonable. 

    I believe that only in MMOs with specific design choices classifying content by character level, such as including zones classified by level (e.g. 1-10 lvl zone, 11-20 lvl zone) or instanced dungeons / battlegrounds sorted by levels (e.g. dungeon for levels 14-18), complete areas of content (e.g. a full lower level zone, low level dungeon) become obsolete or trivialized as you put it.

    In an MMO where there is a mix of monsters / points of interest for various levels in each zone or dungeon, the only content that becomes trivialized are the specific monters.

    Or what else does inevitably become trivialized? 

    As far as immersion goes, I believe it is more realistic if wolves and boars are adequate enemies when you are an inexperienced (low level) warrior with a fork and hardly any armor and if then you move up to fighting stronger monsters like dragons when you become a full geared veteran with a weapon imbued with magic. To me it makes more sense that after becoming powerful in terms of experience and equipment, you kill a boar (or any similar weak / low level monster) with one hit than if you were to fight it as an equally strong opponent.

    Regarding challenge, the fantasy world should provide you with challenge regardless of your relative power (level / equip). You just do not seek the challenge by fighting with wolves and boars, but rather by finding a more powerful enemy.

    I do not know about "innovation", but I do not agree that opposing level scaling implies not liking challenge and not valuing immersion. In case of the latter, I think it implies the opposite. 


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,382
    edited September 14
    Torval said:
    This thread speaks volumes:
    -- MMO gamers don't like innovation no matter what they say
    -- MMO gamers don't like challenge as much as they claim
    -- MMO gamers don't value immersion as much as they claim either

    Without level scaling characters trivialize mobs at the 8th or 9th level delta. So all old content is easy and trivialized. So that throws the love of challenge argument out the window. The amusing irony here is that this sort of level disparity is what will make soloing possible.

    Don't worry. I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. Arena Net can barely do it. ZoS is the only studio that's done it well. It's not easy. I'm pretty sure they'll go for the easy out which is a downscaling "mentor" system. Talk about a lack of ambition and imagination. I hope that's not true, but I suspect it's so.
    I disagree with ArenaNet barely doing it.  I'm all for scaling downwards, it's boosting that destroys any sense of progression for me.

    I despised ESO's system because, to me, it felt a lot like rendering combat to a sideshow along your journey to collect skyshards.  With GW2, I could go into zones as high as I wanted until I found a good balance of risk vs. reward. And I still get to enjoy experience progress towards my masteries by heading to the lowbie zones and being downscaled.  As in ESO, gear can make you more powerful than a toon at that specific level, but it does a good job of tuning character stats to the zone you're in.

    EDIT- Not to mention that downscaling allows me to help out lowbies in my guild without it being a complete waste of time for me.  If I haven't yet completed that map, it's almost as useful an endeavor for me as it is the lowbie to follow them around the zone hitting the vistas, POIs, hearts, and events.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on

    image
  • svannsvann san jose, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,993
    edited September 14
    Torval said:
     I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. .
    I dont know how we can make any simpler. 

    They arent doing level scaling.

    Stay in school, bro.

    Post edited by svann on
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 3,947
    DMKano said:
    Scorchien said:
    DMKano said:
    The OP is mistaken about Pantheon.

    I abhor level scaling in PvE, its the main reason I cant stand GW2 and ESO PvE.

    Any MMO that has level scaling.... I have zero interest.

    Good thing Pantheon isnt doing that crap.

    I am a huge fan of swarming and mass killing lower level areas when you get mad gear and are in godmode basically.
      Yea , cause kickin kittens is fun ..........


    A level 1 mob with 10HP shouldn't even be a factor to a level 110 player with million HP and 10K DPS 

    Sorry.

    I fart and should kill half the zone at that point.

    Level scaling is absolute shite
    you miss the point , understanbly so
    TorvalMrMelGibson
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