Are there any MMORPGs left that don't have easy-mode PvE?

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  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,864
    While games have been dumbed down I think we as players have become so much more savvy and smart about how we play. When I first played Everquest it was my very first MMORPG and I was truly clueless and I found the game so very hard.

    I still think current games can offer us challenges but you have to weigh that with an eye on how much more experienced we are in the games in this genre.
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,758
    cheyane said:
    While games have been dumbed down I think we as players have become so much more savvy and smart about how we play. When I first played Everquest it was my very first MMORPG and I was truly clueless and I found the game so very hard.

    I still think current games can offer us challenges but you have to weigh that with an eye on how much more experienced we are in the games in this genre.

    Yeah, in the early games it was new and felt difficult. Having an insane death penalty on dial up helped a lot too.

    The thing is once we learned how to do all those "things" (pull, buff/debuff, mez/root/stun, split, camp, train, gank, blah blah blah), then it became easier the next time. A new game is unfamiliar for a shorter time because they're all built on the same systems and it is easier and faster to get up to speed.

    I'd challenge anyone here who has played a full on MMORPG to start a brand new one and not be thinking about what they're going to do with their character and activities in the world. I'm pretty sure anyone is going to plan their character class, look for classes with certain skill styles (necros, mages, clerics, rogues, fighters, whatever) that they want to play. I bet you've already made your mind up about crafting (whether you'll do it, what you'll do).

    I'm not saying we don't go in with open minds, but that we're already somewhat, to a greater extent, already familiar with what's going to happen and how to maximize our experience.
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  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,083
    edited September 13
    Dvora said:
    [...]
    Scaling can go f a goat.
    Quite a hornet's nest you've kicked, good sir :smiley:  way too much scaling fans around these parts.

    Personally I'm in your camp, mostly. Full-blown, game-wide scaling is indeed a bullcrap and as @kjempff said above "it ruins all my feeling of accomplishment and progression and makes a game so extremely bland".

    On the other hand, I'm all about options. My problem is not with the scaling itself (which I think can be a really great tool, when used right), but the forced-onto-everyone part, the lack of options.
    What do I care if someone loves to sit in the lukewarm pee and having the same, mid-easy content everywhere, until I can ignore that feature...

    It was a spot-on description by kjempff, "it is just a case of the cure is worse than the disease". Full-on scaling fans used to cite that it prevents faceroll easy, but they forget to add that it removes the other end of the spectrum as well, and forces everyone into the boring mediocre.


    I'm a big supporter of the mentor / sideckick mechanic of CoH and CO, just as the difficulty sliders in those two. Or the area-freedom in LotRO, paired with the xp-disabler.

    Devs, give the options to the players, so they could set their gameplay (and challenge) where they want. Leave it on the default, switch it to faceroll easy, turn it up to hard - all of that is fine, and could be a valid gaming preference. Just don't force them into one pre-defined box for f.cks sake...
    Post edited by Po_gg on
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,606
    I can assure you that you still have progression in both GW2 and ESO despite the scaling.

    I like scaling when properly done, like in those two games, because it makes no sense that a mob can one shot you with an arrow at some point, and then just can't hurt you at all with the same arrow a few levels later. And it also keeps the content fresh, as opposed to have 90% of the game totally abandoned by the players in favor of the few latest areas added.
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  • ShinamiShinami Sacramento, CAMember UncommonPosts: 774
    What exactly is Proper Scaling? 
    In Guild Wars 2 one frequently dealt with the reverse. 

    Around 5 - 10 players fight a boss that is scaled to fight that party. Then from out of nowhere, 20+ players show up and the boss gets scaled to epic proportions. Balthazar was always easier with smaller squads of around 15 - 20 organized players than having 50 - 100 players on the map trying to destroy him. The same was true with the other major bosses that resided in Orr. 

    Of course I can understand the complaints....
    For such a long time the difficulty and health of bosses was increased so an event could be completed with 50+ people, but the drops for each individual were pretty much the same (Outside of the infinitesimal drop rate increase for a precursor) that I always asked myself back then "Why should I spend 3x - 10x more time fighting this boss for the same thing only because 30+ other players who I don't even know and aren't in my guild decided to show up at 5 - 10% health to do as little work as possible for the rewards?" 

    I hate being used by others...
    At least thanks to the way one gears in Guild Wars 2
    One could tell the difference between a good player and bad one. 



  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,233
    Gorwe said:

    If only D3 had WASD movement...like indie aRPGs have. To name something, just look at Neocore Games. Why can Hungarian indies do something that BLIZZARD does not want to? ...only like 100x difference in budget.
    because Blizz deems WASD movement less fun than mouse clicks? They also have the numbers to show that they are 100x better than Neocore games. 
    Bullshit. They don't do WASD because Blizzard is really a master of one thing and one thing only: Highly marketed clicker games. And why would they change when they 100s thousands of sheep that gulp their products as soon as they are released. Can't blame them tbh.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,180
    ohioastro said:
    It is true that once you crack computer games they don't learn and things that were hard become easy. But I have to agree on the frustration with difficulty levels.  Basically, I think of computer games as being sort of like puzzles; in a good game I'd be given a set of tools and my opponents would pose some tactical challenge - interesting skills, tactics and positioning, and so on.  The vanilla MMO games used to give you that feel - your game really changed when you got new skills, and you had to plan how to break camps and approach situations.  In many games now you can run practically to the level cap on auto-attack, or with the first basic attack tool that you get in the game.  You outlevel quests before you can complete them.  The landscape "elite" mobs that you could have soloed, or tried to, were removed; in many cases group quests, which you could also have tried to solo, are also gone.  Mobs don't react until you're on top of them. If I don't need to use any of my skills, if mobs die before they can even hurt me, if I can run past them without engaging them...these are not subjective things.  No, removing all of my gear and not using any of my skills doesn't make for "challenge"; it just makes a mechanical task slower and more boring.

    You really see the change when you go back to games where you were there at launch.  LOTRO is now insultingly easy - there were achievements for getting to moderate level without deaths, which were depressingly easy to get.  The entire game is an exercise in getting self-esteem trophies as far as I can tell; and it really wasn't that way at all on launch.  WoW certainly has interesting endgame things to do, but the leveling content was sanded to nothing.  (In that case, even leveling dungeons have mobs that die as soon as they're tapped.)  ESO is a bit of an exception and it can still give you some tactical puzzles.

    What's really frustrating is that single player computer games aren't this way at all.  It's quite easy to have modern games give you a real challenge without cranking the difficulty to 11 or handicapping your character. I really think that MMOs have some unique problems: the bulk of the players are at level cap, and regard leveling as a tedious chore to avoid.  Other people just want to do the equivalent of playing minesweeper and don't want to have to engage or think about things.  You don't "'reach the real game" in a single player title by slogging though a lot of easy mechanical junk, and until MMOs rethink the leveling-as-chore mode I think that they're  stuck.




    Yes, this guy not only gets it.  He covered the entire standard of what mmos have become. 

    If someone were to Google the phrase " modern mmos"  this should be the first hit and locked as the first hit.



    I don't think anyone really likes what we have now unless the players is a total snowflake and enjoys pure playgrounds...... Sure many will play modern mmos (infact most) only because of the obsessive nature of the wonder of progressing.

    People say " its never been better "..... I say absolute bull crap !!
    Everyone would like more challenge.

    We have millions of gamers now that will play anything.  Also what better way than an mmo to get an ALMOST FREE GAME. 

    Because of this, mmos are in a bad state and its why thousands of us are here searching for one good mmo and coming up empty. 

    deniter
  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,009
    I can assure you that you still have progression in both GW2 and ESO despite the scaling.

    I like scaling when properly done, like in those two games, because it makes no sense that a mob can one shot you with an arrow at some point, and then just can't hurt you at all with the same arrow a few levels later. And it also keeps the content fresh, as opposed to have 90% of the game totally abandoned by the players in favor of the few latest areas added.
    Agreed

    I don't see much difference anyways. It seems to me that as your leveling through a MMORPG that the content is pretty much *scaled* to your level. Once your into the meat of the leveling game, I really don't find the combat any harder as I level through. If a zone is for levels 50-60, its scaled for those levels and I don't find it anymore difficult than when I was level 20 in a 20-30 zone. 

    Personally I find that dinging and gaining a new ability or two is an unimaginative way of progression.

    I'd love a system where gaining abilities required dungeon crawls, exploration and achievements etc. 

    We are only limited by our imaginations.

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  • AoriAori Carbondale, ILMember EpicPosts: 3,849
    Aori said:
    I guess it depends on your definition of challenging.. PvE has never really been challenging in MMOs. PvE in MMOs has always been about efficiency not challenge. 
    My definition of challenge is probably what most people's definition would be.  It's the need to use strategy in combat to win the battle versus being able to faceroll everything with your auto-attack.  Pretty simple, really.
    See, I just don't find those things challenging, it all feels second nature. The only times I've felt challenged was when I was a puller in older MMOs, particularly FFXI, a lot went into that and I felt proud of myself for being one of the best.
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,298
    laserit said:
    I can assure you that you still have progression in both GW2 and ESO despite the scaling.

    I like scaling when properly done, like in those two games, because it makes no sense that a mob can one shot you with an arrow at some point, and then just can't hurt you at all with the same arrow a few levels later. And it also keeps the content fresh, as opposed to have 90% of the game totally abandoned by the players in favor of the few latest areas added.
    Agreed

    I don't see much difference anyways. It seems to me that as your leveling through a MMORPG that the content is pretty much *scaled* to your level. Once your into the meat of the leveling game, I really don't find the combat any harder as I level through. If a zone is for levels 50-60, its scaled for those levels and I don't find it anymore difficult than when I was level 20 in a 20-30 zone. 

    Personally I find that dinging and gaining a new ability or two is an unimaginative way of progression.

    I'd love a system where gaining abilities required dungeon crawls, exploration and achievements etc. 

    We are only limited by our imaginations.
    Limited by our imaginations is probably one of the reasons I don't like scaling. You could say I am not imaginative enough to let scaling slip by and let me stay in suspension of disbelief, while others are not so bothered by it. To me a good mmo is a virtual world in which I can immerse myself, and gamey concepts such as scaling goes against the idea of being in a virtual world with creatures that would exist regardless of my presence. Scaling mechanics is fitting the reality of a mmo-world to the player, instead of putting the player in a mmo-world; and that is where I can no longer maintain my suspension of disbelief .... It is the exact same reason some like story driven games and some don't - Virtual world vs Game Environment (in lack of a better word).

    In a Virtual world you have the Werewolf cave where you the player learn you will die, when you have progressed to be strong enough (not only through leveling, but my many means) you can go there and that creates that feeling of accomplishment which is missing from scaled content. 

    In some ways you are right about "content is pretty much *scaled* to your level", but that is only true if you view it from the story driven themepark perspective (which all mmos post wow are using), and forgetting there are other ways a mmo can be made (see older mmos). In those modern themeparks the story leads you through content so your level is matched to content, and you don't get flattened in the werewolf cave and therefore not enticing a desire to return and be successful in turn feeling accomplished. On top of that put the concept of "the leveling game" which is further watering out progression.
    Sure with those glasses on, scaling makes some sense... so the discussion about whether scaling is good or bad is a complex one and tied very much to which mmos you use as reference; a virtual world kind of mmo or a more gamey kind.
    SedrynTyros
  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,009
    edited September 13
    kjempff said:
    laserit said:
    I can assure you that you still have progression in both GW2 and ESO despite the scaling.

    I like scaling when properly done, like in those two games, because it makes no sense that a mob can one shot you with an arrow at some point, and then just can't hurt you at all with the same arrow a few levels later. And it also keeps the content fresh, as opposed to have 90% of the game totally abandoned by the players in favor of the few latest areas added.
    Agreed

    I don't see much difference anyways. It seems to me that as your leveling through a MMORPG that the content is pretty much *scaled* to your level. Once your into the meat of the leveling game, I really don't find the combat any harder as I level through. If a zone is for levels 50-60, its scaled for those levels and I don't find it anymore difficult than when I was level 20 in a 20-30 zone. 

    Personally I find that dinging and gaining a new ability or two is an unimaginative way of progression.

    I'd love a system where gaining abilities required dungeon crawls, exploration and achievements etc. 

    We are only limited by our imaginations.
    Limited by our imaginations is probably one of the reasons I don't like scaling. You could say I am not imaginative enough to let scaling slip by and let me stay in suspension of disbelief, while others are not so bothered by it. To me a good mmo is a virtual world in which I can immerse myself, and gamey concepts such as scaling goes against the idea of being in a virtual world with creatures that would exist regardless of my presence. Scaling mechanics is fitting the reality of a mmo-world to the player, instead of putting the player in a mmo-world; and that is where I can no longer maintain my suspension of disbelief .... It is the exact same reason some like story driven games and some don't - Virtual world vs Game Environment (in lack of a better word).

    In a Virtual world you have the Werewolf cave where you the player learn you will die, when you have progressed to be strong enough (not only through leveling, but my many means) you can go there and that creates that feeling of accomplishment which is missing from scaled content. 

    In some ways you are right about "content is pretty much *scaled* to your level", but that is only true if you view it from the story driven themepark perspective (which all mmos post wow are using), and forgetting there are other ways a mmo can be made (see older mmos). In those modern themeparks the story leads you through content so your level is matched to content, and you don't get flattened in the werewolf cave and therefore not enticing a desire to return and be successful in turn feeling accomplished. On top of that put the concept of "the leveling game" which is further watering out progression.
    Sure with those glasses on, scaling makes some sense... so the discussion about whether scaling is good or bad is a complex one and tied very much to which mmos you use as reference; a virtual world kind of mmo or a more gamey kind.
    My personal preference is for the type of progression found in games like UO.

    I want to be gated from content because I don't have the necessary abilities or skill, not because I'm not of the appropriate level.

    I don't like the idea of becoming a god in an MMORPG. If I'm not on the ball and not paying attention, every encounter should have the capability of killing my character, no matter if it's in the beginner area, a more advanced area or how much I have progressed in the game.
    Post edited by laserit on
    SedrynTyros

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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,606
    laserit said:


    I want to be gated from content because I don't have the necessary abilities or skill, not because I'm not of the appropriate level.
    ESO.
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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,192
    kjempff said:
    laserit said:
    I can assure you that you still have progression in both GW2 and ESO despite the scaling.

    I like scaling when properly done, like in those two games, because it makes no sense that a mob can one shot you with an arrow at some point, and then just can't hurt you at all with the same arrow a few levels later. And it also keeps the content fresh, as opposed to have 90% of the game totally abandoned by the players in favor of the few latest areas added.
    Agreed

    I don't see much difference anyways. It seems to me that as your leveling through a MMORPG that the content is pretty much *scaled* to your level. Once your into the meat of the leveling game, I really don't find the combat any harder as I level through. If a zone is for levels 50-60, its scaled for those levels and I don't find it anymore difficult than when I was level 20 in a 20-30 zone. 

    Personally I find that dinging and gaining a new ability or two is an unimaginative way of progression.

    I'd love a system where gaining abilities required dungeon crawls, exploration and achievements etc. 

    We are only limited by our imaginations.
    Limited by our imaginations is probably one of the reasons I don't like scaling. You could say I am not imaginative enough to let scaling slip by and let me stay in suspension of disbelief, while others are not so bothered by it. 
    I can understand having a personal preference for the traditional RPG way of level gating, but I find having zones level gated and the breadcrumbs that send you to next level-appropriate zone, to be even more jarring to my suspension of disbelief.

    In a perfect MMO world each zone should have a good mix of easy and difficult content and should only be separated from each other by the zone theme and local challenges, not mob levels.

    Having played this stuff for decades now, I find that I much prefer systems that minimize level impact and maximize the acquisition of knowledge (i.e. better skills) as you progress. That to me is a much more realistic and satisfying progression.
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  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,298
    edited September 13
    Iselin said:
    kjempff said:
    laserit said:
    I can assure you that you still have progression in both GW2 and ESO despite the scaling.

    I like scaling when properly done, like in those two games, because it makes no sense that a mob can one shot you with an arrow at some point, and then just can't hurt you at all with the same arrow a few levels later. And it also keeps the content fresh, as opposed to have 90% of the game totally abandoned by the players in favor of the few latest areas added.
    Agreed

    I don't see much difference anyways. It seems to me that as your leveling through a MMORPG that the content is pretty much *scaled* to your level. Once your into the meat of the leveling game, I really don't find the combat any harder as I level through. If a zone is for levels 50-60, its scaled for those levels and I don't find it anymore difficult than when I was level 20 in a 20-30 zone. 

    Personally I find that dinging and gaining a new ability or two is an unimaginative way of progression.

    I'd love a system where gaining abilities required dungeon crawls, exploration and achievements etc. 

    We are only limited by our imaginations.
    Limited by our imaginations is probably one of the reasons I don't like scaling. You could say I am not imaginative enough to let scaling slip by and let me stay in suspension of disbelief, while others are not so bothered by it. 
    I can understand having a personal preference for the traditional RPG way of level gating, but I find having zones level gated and the breadcrumbs that send you to next level-appropriate zone, to be even more jarring to my suspension of disbelief.

    In a perfect MMO world each zone should have a good mix of easy and difficult content and should only be separated from each other by the zone theme and local challenges, not mob levels.

    Having played this stuff for decades now, I find that I much prefer systems that minimize level impact and maximize the acquisition of knowledge (i.e. better skills) as you progress. That to me is a much more realistic and satisfying progression.
    I never said I wanted level gating, and I agree on what you say.
    Except in the mmos I reference levels are only a small part of what makes you more powerful, while you seem to focus on levels being the only measurement of power and difficulty for players and mobs alike. I wouldn't mind a mmo without levels if it can provide other means of growing in power and being able to use more advanced techniques with practise (character skills). Player skill progression is also good; when you combine that with character skill advancement you get a another level of deeper and versatile progression system.

    laserit said:


    I want to be gated from content because I don't have the necessary abilities or skill, not because I'm not of the appropriate level. 
    ESO.
    But you want to be gated, which is good .. but has to be some kind of power measurement for that gating to work. Levels is one way, gear is another, rite of passage/keying/etc is one, skill based system is just another way to do levels but maybe more logical. You can do progression with many kinds of power measurements, it is just my opinion that the more of these you combine the deeper a progression game you get, which is why I think dropping levels out of that equation can only lead to simpler and shorter progression.
    Post edited by kjempff on
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Gorwe said:

    Bullshit. They don't do WASD because Blizzard is really a master of one thing and one thing only: Highly marketed clicker games. And why would they change when they 100s thousands of sheep that gulp their products as soon as they are released. Can't blame them tbh.

    lol .. you never heard of hearthstone and overwatch? Don't tell me you think those are clicker games too.

    Blizz is the master of one thing and one thing only ... making good games. Almost any game they make is a huge success (WoW, Diablo, Starcraft, Overwatch, Hearthstone ... and even HOTS is not that bad). 
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTMember RarePosts: 4,112
    I don't really see why AI has to be good for something to be difficult.

    You can break down a fight in old RPGs into a few different concepts.

    One is health.  Health was slow to regenerate making decisions you make during battle vital.  One mistake could mean you having a fight that you couldn't handle.

    The damage of the mob vs the damage of the player.  The mob always did more damage than the player.  This means in a one on one matchup it's impossible to win unless you use a strategy like kiting.  This was risky as the mob could usually kill classes that had kiting abilities fairly if they got in range because of a resist or bad timing.

    Mana didn't regenerate fast.  If you healed the wrong person, fizzled a spell, or cast a heal too late it often meant death.  If you healed too often it would be costly because of the slow mana recovery rate.

    Mobs had large agro ranges.  You had wandering mobs that would aggro from far away.  If your puller made a mistake it could wipe the whole party and that was costly in those games in terms of losing both time and experience.  Increased frustration leads to people making more mistakes. 

    There was a lot of difficulty and strategy based on pool management, agro management, and timing.  

    I don't think the majority of people are interested in these concepts at this point in time.  They all want safe places where they feel comfortable like in real life.  They want to feel good about what they are accomplishing in the game and never feel much frustration unless they choose to raid on the hardest difficulties.  In essence, they really miss the point of going on an adventure in a consequence free environment IMO.
    SedrynTyros
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,932
    Flyte27 said:
    I don't really see why AI has to be good for something to be difficult.

    You can break down a fight in old RPGs into a few different concepts.

    One is health.  Health was slow to regenerate making decisions you make during battle vital.  One mistake could mean you having a fight that you couldn't handle.

    The damage of the mob vs the damage of the player.  The mob always did more damage than the player.  This means in a one on one matchup it's impossible to win unless you use a strategy like kiting.  This was risky as the mob could usually kill classes that had kiting abilities fairly if they got in range because of a resist or bad timing.

    Mana didn't regenerate fast.  If you healed the wrong person, fizzled a spell, or cast a heal too late it often meant death.  If you healed too often it would be costly because of the slow mana recovery rate.

    Mobs had large agro ranges.  You had wandering mobs that would aggro from far away.  If your puller made a mistake it could wipe the whole party and that was costly in those games in terms of losing both time and experience.  Increased frustration leads to people making more mistakes. 

    There was a lot of difficulty and strategy based on pool management, agro management, and timing.  

    I don't think the majority of people are interested in these concepts at this point in time.  They all want safe places where they feel comfortable like in real life.  They want to feel good about what they are accomplishing in the game and never feel much frustration unless they choose to raid on the hardest difficulties.  In essence, they really miss the point of going on an adventure in a consequence free environment IMO.
    Yeah they do ... and it sucks for the rest of us who enjoyed the old dynamics you mentioned.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    AI doesn't need to be challenging for PvE to be challenging but something about the entire experience must be challenging.

    As I mentioned with Darkfall and Star Citizen the challenge comes from the combat system. You must aim attacks, dodge attacks, and in Darkfall there is always a skill you can be using in any situation. But these tasks are more complex than your standard FPS. For instance in Darkfall using your abilities with knockback near your own feat can be used to propel your own character and mastering this essential. In Star Citizen sharp turns will cause "red outs" in which your character start to lose consciousness because of the G force you are putting on it, meaning that good dodging techniques have to walk a line between slow predictable turning and movement so erratic it will knock out your own character, on top of the fact the aiming just plain isn't easy. Mastering control of your character increases what you can plausibly kill.

    Or as you mentioned you can just up NPC strength relative to players so you actually need to know your build. I think the difficulty of old MMOs is overstated however. Things were a bit less braindead when fighting enemies on par with your level and gear but the main challenge was still grinding. They really only removed your need for a pulse.

    Of course more interesting use of abilities and counter abilities make games more challenging than when you can rely on the same rotation to be the best thing you can do in the vast majority of situations.

    And finally yes, good AI can increase the challenge by making enemies less predictable or harder to use cheap tricks to defeat.

    There are a lot of ways to make a game challenging. Modern MMOs just employ none of them, and to be honest, older MMOs didn't employ all that many either.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Eldurian said:


    There are a lot of ways to make a game challenging. Modern MMOs just employ none of them, and to be honest, older MMOs didn't employ all that many either.
    Of course they do.

    PvP is one way.

    A difficulty slider is another way. 
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 7,821
    A Dark Souls mmo. 
    TheScavenger
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 5,991
    Skyforge PvE was pretty tough but it's been awhile since I played.  ESO was hard when it first came out but now it's really easy in PvE.  I don't even need gear sets for PvE content.  You can do the starter zones on all three factions then continue on your main faction if you want.  Once you get CP build up PvE is very easy.

    GW2 HoT is a challenge but mostly because the map is so confusing and you need help with some of the content.  But for a challenge try doing the HoT personal story.

    Star Trek Online has a difficulty slider for PvE content.  Been awhile since I played it though.

    "Change is the only constant."

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    Eldurian said:


    There are a lot of ways to make a game challenging. Modern MMOs just employ none of them, and to be honest, older MMOs didn't employ all that many either.
    Of course they do.

    PvP is one way.

    A difficulty slider is another way. 
    Except most games have screwed even that up. Losing at PvP? Throw more gear on it. Want to easymode a hardmode dungeon? Throw more gear on it.

    Making the solution to every problem "Grind longer" isn't adding any kind of authentic challenge to a game. It's adding tedium. Even a small child can succeed given enough time.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,606
    In each similar thread, I end coming to the same conclusion: nowadays, MMORPG gamers are totally unable to set their own difficulty level. They need the game to force them into difficult content.

    Back in 2000, you had only EQ to force people into content. In both UO and AC1, the choice was on the player's side.

    In all the games I've played, I have always been able to find content of the difficulty that I wanted depending of my mood of the day. Yeah, even in "modern" games. Don't limit what's possible to the limits of your imagination.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,910
    Flyte27 said:
    I don't really see why AI has to be good for something to be difficult.

    You can break down a fight in old RPGs into a few different concepts.

    One is health.  Health was slow to regenerate making decisions you make during battle vital.  One mistake could mean you having a fight that you couldn't handle.

    The damage of the mob vs the damage of the player.  The mob always did more damage than the player.  This means in a one on one matchup it's impossible to win unless you use a strategy like kiting.  This was risky as the mob could usually kill classes that had kiting abilities fairly if they got in range because of a resist or bad timing.

    Mana didn't regenerate fast.  If you healed the wrong person, fizzled a spell, or cast a heal too late it often meant death.  If you healed too often it would be costly because of the slow mana recovery rate.

    Mobs had large agro ranges.  You had wandering mobs that would aggro from far away.  If your puller made a mistake it could wipe the whole party and that was costly in those games in terms of losing both time and experience.  Increased frustration leads to people making more mistakes. 

    There was a lot of difficulty and strategy based on pool management, agro management, and timing.  

    I don't think the majority of people are interested in these concepts at this point in time.  They all want safe places where they feel comfortable like in real life.  They want to feel good about what they are accomplishing in the game and never feel much frustration unless they choose to raid on the hardest difficulties.  In essence, they really miss the point of going on an adventure in a consequence free environment IMO.
    AI don't have to be good to make something difficult but it makes combat less predictable. You certainly can give a boss enough HP and damage to make them almost invincible while still being incredible stupid  but I personally don't think it is as fun.

    I am not so sure that the majority of the players just want to easily beat all content without any challenge though, vanilla Wow did at least have a moderate challenge and it did pretty fine. I think the problem is more that game designers adds it because some people do want to steamroll everything and since they know the rest don't have anywhere else to go they use the lowest difficulty they can and hope they can get everyone.

    But MMOs don't do so well anymore and they still make them easier. Making MMOs easier then EQ did widen the playerbase so every time they try to get more players they lower the difficulty more. But just because it worked the first few times does not mean you can do it infinite times. 

    I have a feeling that the difficulty that get you most players is slightly easier then vanilla Wow but still way above the average game today.
    SedrynTyros
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 13,112
    Too often people think the ONLY content to talk about is Bosses or Raids,this is the sad reality that Wow brought onto this generation of gaming.

    I often hear about VANILLA Wow<<LMAO.WTF are we talking about 1% of the game again,Bosses?The normal content of chasing around yellow markers and then doing fetch me quests was laughable SUPER EASY.

    There were normal mobs in FFXI i bet were harder than MANY bosses in Wow and for obvious reasons,GEAR makes the player in Wow not the player skill.In FFXI gear had very little to do with it,it was always about player skill and a tad bit of luck as well.
    There are mobs in FFXi that can be soloed by a very skilled player but could easily take down a low skilled GROUP.
    That is about as tough as it gets.Yes ANY mob once the scripting/AI is figured out can be done and considered easy mode but that is not the fair way to asses a challenge.

    I will conclude it by saying ANY and i mean ANY game with yellow markers over NPC heads is TOO EASY,the devs designed it to be easy,easy to follow,put your brain on hold,just vee line to that yellow marker.Yes a game could also be too easy without the hand holding but you'll never see it any easier than when a game is 100% hand holding.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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