Are there any MMORPGs left that don't have easy-mode PvE?

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  • ShinobeShinobe BerlinMember UncommonPosts: 14
    The most challenging one I've found for PvE is WildStar. I had to pay more attention than pretty much any other MMORPG I've played to succeed.

    ......
    And when does that challenge begin?  What level?  Because I've played WildStar to level 12 over the last few days and there's no challenge anywhere to be found yet.  Seriously.  Like every other MMO I've tried, you vastly outclass the monsters you face while leveling to the point where it's literally impossible to die if you're not having a epileptic seizure while playing.

    I'll probably keep playing for a bit because I like everything about the game .... except for how ridiculously easy it is.  Would it be so hard for the developers to make the monsters deal enough damage to you to actually force you to dodge out of the way?  They give you the ability to dodge, but you don't need to use it.  You don't even need to move out of the red danger zones.  Now, I'm guessing that's not the case in dungeons or raids, but the game should also be fun to play outside of dungeons and raids.
    Wildstar is total easy for Solo PVE, it "was" harder when you have hit max lvl and went into the dungeons. But the casual player base cried so much, that they made it easy AF now. Wildstar tried to get the challenging group and raid PVE back and it failed. Most of the ppl novadays dont want to farm, grind for their stuff. They dont want to "work" in group or raids. They want the best stuff handed to their lazy asses as soom as they hit max lvl. If you read the interwebs two things happen when a new online game comes out: 1. The cry because the content is too hard, they have to go and farm, they have to put time in the game to get better/best gear OR 2. The cry because there is no endgame/not enough content, cus the devs made it too easy to get everything.

    Well thanks Blizzard for training the new generation of gamers :disappointed:
    ManWithNoTanStoneRoses
  • kjempffkjempff Member UncommonPosts: 1,270
    Dvora said:
    One thing I despise in current mmo trends is zone/mob level equalization.  It used to be that if mobs around your level were too easy for you or your group you could move to a higher level area for more risk and reward.  Games like ESO etc basically make every mob your level no matter what.  It reduces the feeling of progression and just makes everything boring.  Really hate that.
    Sorry it was not enough to just click agree on this.
    Scaling is one of the biggest killers of mmos for me, it ruins all my feeling of accomplishment and progression and makes a game so extremely bland. I understand the reasoning behind doing scaling which is to bring players together instead of splitting them up, it is just a case of the cure is worse than the disease - Solving a problem by introducing a different bigger one is a mistake.
    Pantheon team, please stop and reconsider level scaling!
    DvoraPo_ggTuor7
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 7,691
    edited September 12
    Black Desert's pve gets challenging at higher levels.  


    Quest based themeparks like ESO, Final Fantasy and Guild Wars 2 don't offer any challenge unless its in an instance.  
    Post edited by Mikeha on
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,162
    I think it's possible to find challenge. I can easily find it in ESO, SWL, or Project Gorgon amongst a few others.

    Generally people go out of their way to avoid overt challenges. So the game doesn't throw challenge at you at every angle then it's missed for the road commonly travelled.

    Then you have raid gear that trivializes all non-raid content. What's the point in designing challenging content when some portion of the playerbase can steamroll it anyway. So until that problem is fixed it's not really possible to find a solution.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,482
    Mikeha said:

    Quest based themeparks like ESO, ... and Guild Wars 2 don't offer any challenge unless its in an instance.  
    Wrong.
    Torvalborghive49
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,162
    Mikeha said:

    Quest based themeparks like ESO, ... and Guild Wars 2 don't offer any challenge unless its in an instance.  
    Wrong.

    When I read statements like that about ESO or GW2 it makes me question whether the person actually played the game to any reasonable degree. Or if they chose the most simple activity and then extrapolated that this must be how it all works.

    ESO in particular is one game that can be as challenging as you want by how hard you push yourself.

    At some point some people are probably just too pro for MMOs. Of all the game genres MMOs are probably the most forgiving overall. It makes sense right because they have to appeal to massive skill spectrum playing together at the same time. Very few games are built to accommodate difficulty sliders and those that are tend to rely heavily on instancing to do so.
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 7,691
    Mikeha said:

    Quest based themeparks like ESO, ... and Guild Wars 2 don't offer any challenge unless its in an instance.  
    Wrong.



    Which ones have the challenging PVE?

    I want to be wrong. 
    Age of Wushu 2 is a sandbox innovative triple A game built with Unreal Engine 4 that will be launched in 2018. It is based on "real martial art" concepts with naturalistic and societal survival elements. With grand scenes of the world, highly appealing picture atmosphere, rich details such as vegetation , architecture, characters and other real delicate texture performance, it is a combination of high-quality visual effects, bringing an user-level sensory experience. Whether it is physical destruction of the scene, or based on the true performance of IK technology in movement and combat, Age of Wushu 2 brings a whole evolution of gaming experience.
    http://9yin2.woniu.com/
  • AoriAori Carbondale, ILMember EpicPosts: 3,799
    I guess it depends on your definition of challenging.. PvE has never really been challenging in MMOs. PvE in MMOs has always been about efficiency not challenge. 
    Shaigh
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,822
    It's all relative.

    Every day I play ESO I see people struggling with overland content I find extremely easy. When they post looking for help in the ESO forums they get ridiculed by the usual suspects.

    Why? It's simple really: once you know the game forward and backwards, know how to make efficient builds, what gear to use, which food to use, which abilities to use when and how and have the passive buffs of hundreds of champion points then yes, most overland content becomes very, very easy.

    But along with their lack of empathy those doing the ridiculing also have faulty memories of what it was like when they first started. They've forgotten that they themselves are the ones who trivialized the content with their 3.5 year knowledge base and that the game needs to be balanced for the true brand-new players.

    I'm also willing to bet that the vast majority of those laughing have never finished Maelstrom Arena even once, much less the veteran version, vMA.
    Torval
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    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

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  • kjempffkjempff Member UncommonPosts: 1,270
    Aori said:
    I guess it depends on your definition of challenging.. PvE has never really been challenging in MMOs. PvE in MMOs has always been about efficiency not challenge. 
    1. Efficiency can be challenge, only depends on your view.
    2. There are many pve mmos where skill is the factor to complete something, for example a good player can survive a mob/area that a not so skilled player can not - Then it is not about efficiency anymore, but about how you play.. aka a challenge.
    I will admit modern pve mmos have a lot of non challenging content that is mostly a question of efficiency, but that problem is not tied to pve but to shitty game design.
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 2,000
    edited September 12
    I dunno why people say EVE is challenging. I mostly PVE, and there was no challenge at all in EVE. All it was, was more boring missions than any quest system I ever played. None of the missions even had a story to them, it was lame.

    On top of that, in EVE the AI is kinda junk. The rats (AI) just sit in the same spot till you warp in, they don't travel from system to system or do anything intelligent. Its a pretty weak PVE and AI system.

    WoW PVE is far more challenging. 1-110 is boring as hell (that makes it FEEL very long and challenging to level, because you can't do anything like you can at max level), but endgame is where the real game is. Doing the VERY hard PVE content is harder than any PVE content EVE provides. Anyone who says otherwise never did the hardcore raids/mythics in WoW.
    Post edited by TheScavenger on
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  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomeMember UncommonPosts: 3,805
    edited September 12
    Scaling is one of the best things for MMO's. Nothing more immersion breaking then outlvling content. I hate how MMORPG's like WoW disregards complete zones or even expansion packs because of the lvling and gear. But to be fair, scaling has to be executed in a way that character progression is still noticable. Which is not easy.

    As for challenging PVE in MMORPG's. It will never compare to singleplayer games that are perfectly balanced for single player. Go play Dark Souls series for challenging combat.

    ESO can be challenging, except if you play a FotM build with hundreds of CP's. Your build/gear can make a difference of night and day unfortunately. Try to take down a world boss with a more unusual build or do a dungeon solo. But this is the case for most MMORPG's.

    As for EVE, PVE hardly exists in that game. Back when I played there were only random generated missions and those exploration missions (Tbh it has been years since I played EVE). The challenge in EVE is group vs group PVP. Or the political/influence part of the game.

    Most oldschool MMORPG's have no challenging PVE at all. It is either beaten in the meta (create a FotM build, get some top gear) or it is about dungeons/raids that make you jump through hoops (once learned, challenge is gone). The fact that a video can teach you how to beat a raid says enough.

    But then I don't play MMORPG's PVE for challenging combat. In MMORPG's challenging PVE unfortunately often means repetition or huge hp pools that you need to grind through.
    Post edited by someforumguy on
    kjempffMikehaSedrynTyros
  • routesmanroutesman Ames, IAMember UncommonPosts: 65
    I dunno why people say EVE is challenging. I mostly PVE, and there was no challenge at all in EVE. All it was, was more boring missions than any quest system I ever played. None of the missions even had a story to them, it was lame.

    On top of that, in EVE the AI is kinda junk. The rats (AI) just sit in the same spot till you warp in, they don't travel from system to system or do anything intelligent. Its a pretty weak PVE and AI system.

    WoW PVE is far more challenging. 1-110 is boring as hell (that makes it FEEL very long and challenging to level, because you can't do anything like you can at max level), but endgame is where the real game is. Doing the VERY hard PVE content is harder than any PVE content EVE provides. Anyone who says otherwise never did the hardcore raids/mythics in WoW.
    Okay, you talk about your experiences in Eve Online with the rats being very boring.  And when you talk about how challenging WoW's PvE is with the endgame content.  So, I have to ask:

    1) Did you ever run incursions in Eve Online?

    Because if your answer is no, then your comparison is unfair.  Incursions in Eve are what raids are in WoW.  And respectfully, I'm betting you have not done incursions.
  • ohioastroohioastro Columbus, OHMember UncommonPosts: 472
    It is true that once you crack computer games they don't learn and things that were hard become easy. But I have to agree on the frustration with difficulty levels.  Basically, I think of computer games as being sort of like puzzles; in a good game I'd be given a set of tools and my opponents would pose some tactical challenge - interesting skills, tactics and positioning, and so on.  The vanilla MMO games used to give you that feel - your game really changed when you got new skills, and you had to plan how to break camps and approach situations.  In many games now you can run practically to the level cap on auto-attack, or with the first basic attack tool that you get in the game.  You outlevel quests before you can complete them.  The landscape "elite" mobs that you could have soloed, or tried to, were removed; in many cases group quests, which you could also have tried to solo, are also gone.  Mobs don't react until you're on top of them. If I don't need to use any of my skills, if mobs die before they can even hurt me, if I can run past them without engaging them...these are not subjective things.  No, removing all of my gear and not using any of my skills doesn't make for "challenge"; it just makes a mechanical task slower and more boring.

    You really see the change when you go back to games where you were there at launch.  LOTRO is now insultingly easy - there were achievements for getting to moderate level without deaths, which were depressingly easy to get.  The entire game is an exercise in getting self-esteem trophies as far as I can tell; and it really wasn't that way at all on launch.  WoW certainly has interesting endgame things to do, but the leveling content was sanded to nothing.  (In that case, even leveling dungeons have mobs that die as soon as they're tapped.)  ESO is a bit of an exception and it can still give you some tactical puzzles.

    What's really frustrating is that single player computer games aren't this way at all.  It's quite easy to have modern games give you a real challenge without cranking the difficulty to 11 or handicapping your character. I really think that MMOs have some unique problems: the bulk of the players are at level cap, and regard leveling as a tedious chore to avoid.  Other people just want to do the equivalent of playing minesweeper and don't want to have to engage or think about things.  You don't "'reach the real game" in a single player title by slogging though a lot of easy mechanical junk, and until MMOs rethink the leveling-as-chore mode I think that they're  stuck.



    SedrynTyrosNycteliosGorweRufusUO
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,764
    Aori said:
    I guess it depends on your definition of challenging.. PvE has never really been challenging in MMOs. PvE in MMOs has always been about efficiency not challenge. 
    My definition of challenge is probably what most people's definition would be.  It's the need to use strategy in combat to win the battle versus being able to faceroll everything with your auto-attack.  Pretty simple, really.
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,764
    ohioastro said:
    It is true that once you crack computer games they don't learn and things that were hard become easy. But I have to agree on the frustration with difficulty levels.  Basically, I think of computer games as being sort of like puzzles; in a good game I'd be given a set of tools and my opponents would pose some tactical challenge - interesting skills, tactics and positioning, and so on.  The vanilla MMO games used to give you that feel - your game really changed when you got new skills, and you had to plan how to break camps and approach situations.  In many games now you can run practically to the level cap on auto-attack, or with the first basic attack tool that you get in the game.  You outlevel quests before you can complete them.  The landscape "elite" mobs that you could have soloed, or tried to, were removed; in many cases group quests, which you could also have tried to solo, are also gone.  Mobs don't react until you're on top of them. If I don't need to use any of my skills, if mobs die before they can even hurt me, if I can run past them without engaging them...these are not subjective things.  No, removing all of my gear and not using any of my skills doesn't make for "challenge"; it just makes a mechanical task slower and more boring.

    You really see the change when you go back to games where you were there at launch.  LOTRO is now insultingly easy - there were achievements for getting to moderate level without deaths, which were depressingly easy to get.  The entire game is an exercise in getting self-esteem trophies as far as I can tell; and it really wasn't that way at all on launch.  WoW certainly has interesting endgame things to do, but the leveling content was sanded to nothing.  (In that case, even leveling dungeons have mobs that die as soon as they're tapped.)  ESO is a bit of an exception and it can still give you some tactical puzzles.

    What's really frustrating is that single player computer games aren't this way at all.  It's quite easy to have modern games give you a real challenge without cranking the difficulty to 11 or handicapping your character. I really think that MMOs have some unique problems: the bulk of the players are at level cap, and regard leveling as a tedious chore to avoid.  Other people just want to do the equivalent of playing minesweeper and don't want to have to engage or think about things.  You don't "'reach the real game" in a single player title by slogging though a lot of easy mechanical junk, and until MMOs rethink the leveling-as-chore mode I think that they're  stuck.



    See, this guy get's it.  This is what I'm talking about.
    NycteliosManWithNoTandelete5230Gorwe
  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 112
    kjempff said:
    Dvora said:
    One thing I despise in current mmo trends is zone/mob level equalization.  It used to be that if mobs around your level were too easy for you or your group you could move to a higher level area for more risk and reward.  Games like ESO etc basically make every mob your level no matter what.  It reduces the feeling of progression and just makes everything boring.  Really hate that.
    Sorry it was not enough to just click agree on this.
    Scaling is one of the biggest killers of mmos for me, it ruins all my feeling of accomplishment and progression and makes a game so extremely bland. I understand the reasoning behind doing scaling which is to bring players together instead of splitting them up, it is just a case of the cure is worse than the disease - Solving a problem by introducing a different bigger one is a mistake.
    Pantheon team, please stop and reconsider level scaling!
    Seriously Pantheon is doing level scaling?  WTF...  I thought they were aiming for oldschool.  This is one of the worst current cop-out trends.  Another MMO I had hopes for down the crapper.
    MikehaSedrynTyros
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILMember RarePosts: 3,026
    I consider the PVE is Darkfall difficult (though, in terms of quests there isn't much.)  I think that TSW had some difficult puzzles and situations.  I think EVE can be challenging,   I think that a lot of the survival MMOs are PvE challenged (Although ppl can go ahead and dismiss these since it doesn't fit the conventional label).  I think that Life is Feudal can be challenging as well as some of the other smaller norse themed MMOs.  I also think that Elite Dangerous has some challenging content.

    That's all I can think of, but these are just my opinions.  Challenging for one is not necessarily challenging for others.  Also, I don't just look at the ease with which to kill monsters is the measure.  Crafting, survival, negotiating difficult situations not involving combat all factor in for me.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 112
    edited September 13
    Scaling is one of the best things for MMO's. Nothing more immersion breaking then outlvling content. I hate how MMORPG's like WoW disregards complete zones or even expansion packs because of the lvling and gear. But to be fair, scaling has to be executed in a way that character progression is still noticable. Which is not easy.

    As for challenging PVE in MMORPG's. It will never compare to singleplayer games that are perfectly balanced for single player. Go play Dark Souls series for challenging combat.

    ESO can be challenging, except if you play a FotM build with hundreds of CP's. Your build/gear can make a difference of night and day unfortunately. Try to take down a world boss with a more unusual build or do a dungeon solo. But this is the case for most MMORPG's.

    As for EVE, PVE hardly exists in that game. Back when I played there were only random generated missions and those exploration missions (Tbh it has been years since I played EVE). The challenge in EVE is group vs group PVP. Or the political/influence part of the game.

    Most oldschool MMORPG's have no challenging PVE at all. It is either beaten in the meta (create a FotM build, get some top gear) or it is about dungeons/raids that make you jump through hoops (once learned, challenge is gone). The fact that a video can teach you how to beat a raid says enough.

    But then I don't play MMORPG's PVE for challenging combat. In MMORPG's challenging PVE unfortunately often means repetition or huge hp pools that you need to grind through.
    Bull crap... best for mmos my ass.  You don't have to throw out zones, and if gameplay is enjoyable, you will be back through those zones many times on many different toons. 

    Lower level zones are progressed through fast generally but that means there can be much fewer of them, with the majority of the content at higher levels as leveling slows down.  You also can't compare a new game to an ancient game like wow that has been around forever, has tons of content and of course will have some zones that are progressed through quickly since leveling speed has been increased many times.

    Out-leveling content is immersion breaking?  Move to the next zone if its too easy.  How immersive is it if you have the same relative difficulty killing a lvl 2 rabbit vs a huge lvl 50 ogre in non group content?  Scaling is progression breaking, and there is no way to do what you are talking about right.  If there is never anything harder to move on to then there is no good way to pick your difficulty either.  Difficulty sliders are BS also.  I did not however hate age of conan's method of offering an elite version of every zone, for group fun.

    I have seen only one semi tolerable way to do some form of scaling, though I am still not a big fan, and that is GW2's method.  There is no scaling on the way up, but mobs never get lower level than you.  Then at least you can move to harder content if you want, but things never get one shot easy.  Personally I'd rather just see a mentoring system though, so that you can go help low lvl friends if you choose, without just mowing their content.

    EQ 1...I remember the thrill of just trying to sneak though certain higher level zones on my way from Qeynos to Freeport.  I also remember random surprise encounters with wandering high level mobs in lower level zones, like Gix in the commonlands.  It gave me something to look forward to, coming back later to whoop his sneaky ass.  Things like that give you reasons to come back to low level zones.  That and world bosses, etc.

    Scaling can go f a goat.

    Post edited by Dvora on
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  • ookibakaookibaka Hudsonville, MIMember UncommonPosts: 27
    When did DDO become one of the easiest?  Its been over a year since I've played last and would've considered it one of the hardest in the past couple of years had I not read some of the replies here.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,201
    Gorwe said:

    If only D3 had WASD movement...like indie aRPGs have. To name something, just look at Neocore Games. Why can Hungarian indies do something that BLIZZARD does not want to? ...only like 100x difference in budget.
    because Blizz deems WASD movement less fun than mouse clicks? They also have the numbers to show that they are 100x better than Neocore games. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,201
    Kryn said:

    The subject was on MMOs.  Please name the MMOs with sliders, not multi player games.  I don't know why anyone would argue that games aren't shit easy these days.  In my opinion if you need a slider to make a game challenging you did it wrong to start with.
    So? MMO can learn from other multi-player games. It is not like MMOs are so successful that they don't need to change. 
  • kjempffkjempff Member UncommonPosts: 1,270
    Dvora said:
    kjempff said:
    Dvora said:
    One thing I despise in current mmo trends is zone/mob level equalization.  It used to be that if mobs around your level were too easy for you or your group you could move to a higher level area for more risk and reward.  Games like ESO etc basically make every mob your level no matter what.  It reduces the feeling of progression and just makes everything boring.  Really hate that.
    Sorry it was not enough to just click agree on this.
    Scaling is one of the biggest killers of mmos for me, it ruins all my feeling of accomplishment and progression and makes a game so extremely bland. I understand the reasoning behind doing scaling which is to bring players together instead of splitting them up, it is just a case of the cure is worse than the disease - Solving a problem by introducing a different bigger one is a mistake.
    Pantheon team, please stop and reconsider level scaling!
    Seriously Pantheon is doing level scaling?  WTF...  I thought they were aiming for oldschool.  This is one of the worst current cop-out trends.  Another MMO I had hopes for down the crapper.
    To clarify.. They are doing mentoring, which is down scaling on player levels+gear, not a full blown horizontal blandscript on everything. It could be worse but still pretty gamey and immersion/progression breaking.
    SedrynTyros
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,764
    kjempff said:
    Dvora said:
    kjempff said:
    Dvora said:
    One thing I despise in current mmo trends is zone/mob level equalization.  It used to be that if mobs around your level were too easy for you or your group you could move to a higher level area for more risk and reward.  Games like ESO etc basically make every mob your level no matter what.  It reduces the feeling of progression and just makes everything boring.  Really hate that.
    Sorry it was not enough to just click agree on this.
    Scaling is one of the biggest killers of mmos for me, it ruins all my feeling of accomplishment and progression and makes a game so extremely bland. I understand the reasoning behind doing scaling which is to bring players together instead of splitting them up, it is just a case of the cure is worse than the disease - Solving a problem by introducing a different bigger one is a mistake.
    Pantheon team, please stop and reconsider level scaling!
    Seriously Pantheon is doing level scaling?  WTF...  I thought they were aiming for oldschool.  This is one of the worst current cop-out trends.  Another MMO I had hopes for down the crapper.
    To clarify.. They are doing mentoring, which is down scaling on player levels+gear, not a full blown horizontal blandscript on everything. It could be worse but still pretty gamey and immersion/progression breaking.
    That's good to know.  Thanks for clearing that up.
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 1,475
    edited September 13
    Mikeha said:
    Mikeha said:

    Quest based themeparks like ESO, ... and Guild Wars 2 don't offer any challenge unless its in an instance.  
    Wrong.



    Which ones have the challenging PVE?

    I want to be wrong. 
    GW2 PVE use to be Challenging at one point until they NERFED the shit out of it. Even HOT got NERFED.

    ESO never found it challenging unless you were forcing a shitty build to work.
    Post edited by StoneRoses on
    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
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    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
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