Are there any MMORPGs left that don't have easy-mode PvE?

2456

Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,183
    Things are really bad. 

    My friends and I were having a lot of fun playing Vanilla WoW, so after some time we decided to play GW2 to change things up a little.  It was totally impossible to play together because of the instant takedowns.

    Now on to something even worst.
    Shortly after one of my friends and I decided to play LOTRO.  We met up around level 15.  Again totally impossible.  Everything is made to be one shoted.  In fact taking out entire mobs was a pure solo experience where a second player can't even get a shot in.  Quest were so short, each of us were running to turn them in more than playing.  It was impossible to co-op.  After about 5 levels we gave up and deleted the game. 


    Yet if you bring up a topic about easy mode, on any forums, you get the standard "It gets harder". I have yet to see one of them get past extremely easy !

    All classics are now like this, we don't even have ONE mmo.

    deniter
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,298
    I am not up to date on this game, but how is Neverwinter these days ? used to have a little challenge anyways.. question is if you can stomach the p2w. Other than that I have found my challenge in multiboxing various Everquest versions, my latest find is a 3box max rule emu which I think is the perfect balance because you can't do everything alone but you can level and do easier quests and player skill is a major factor. Also no 3rd party tools are allowed (and reinforced) and very friendly community plus decent population, 2002 era correct. Against the rules to link it I guess but starts with a p, ends with 2002, dotcom, not listed on eqemulator.
  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,866
    I am curious about Neverwinter Online too I has played it but gave up early . I found the inventory very limited in space but may be I was doing something wrong. I will invest money in expanding it and I do not mind throwing some money at a game if I enjoy it.
    image
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,091
    Shortly after one of my friends and I decided to play LOTRO.  We met up around level 15.  Again totally impossible.  Everything is made to be one shoted.  In fact taking out entire mobs was a pure solo experience where a second player can't even get a shot in.  Quest were so short, each of us were running to turn them in more than playing.  It was impossible to co-op.  After about 5 levels we gave up and deleted the game.
    If I remember right, you play on the US side... in case you want to give an another chance to LotRO pick Landroval and contact these people https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?492123-Club-Eclair-A-slow-leveling-roleplay-adventure-club
    They play +5 level content in a group. True, and they roleplay as well :wink:  but I think they have a second kinship with more focus on just the group content.
    Trust me, with +5 levels you don't one-shot anything (regardless of your actual state on the journey, whether it's 15 on a level 20 content or 105 on a level 110 content).


    @cheyane ; Neverwinter is easy too... at the end there might be some challenge, but the leveling journey is very smooth. The inventory is tight (but you always can roll mule accounts :wink: ), maybe farming some Zen through AD can help on that. Or dropping in some money, if you don't mind that.
    There's even a "subscription-esque" option now, the game is still f2p but you can sign up for a monthly pay and get benefits.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,506
    There is one stupid mechanic in MMOs that makes each of them easy mode. And it was introduced by WoW:

    You can not damage MOB that is higher level than you ( + 2 , or something )


    This was probably introduced as some kind of balancing act.

    But if it was not, you could simply go and fight high level enemies and the game will be much harder, but bring more exp and better rewards.
    Level difference being a stat in PvE where you get penalties to hit chance if you are lower level. Aion took it a step further where they included it as a stat for PvP and icing on the cake was that it changed amount of damage dealt and taken.

    It existed in many shapes in MUD so its not something unique to MMOs.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,866
    Po_gg said:
    Shortly after one of my friends and I decided to play LOTRO.  We met up around level 15.  Again totally impossible.  Everything is made to be one shoted.  In fact taking out entire mobs was a pure solo experience where a second player can't even get a shot in.  Quest were so short, each of us were running to turn them in more than playing.  It was impossible to co-op.  After about 5 levels we gave up and deleted the game.
    If I remember right, you play on the US side... in case you want to give an another chance to LotRO pick Landroval and contact these people https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?492123-Club-Eclair-A-slow-leveling-roleplay-adventure-club
    They play +5 level content in a group. True, and they roleplay as well :wink:  but I think they have a second kinship with more focus on just the group content.
    Trust me, with +5 levels you don't one-shot anything (regardless of your actual state on the journey, whether it's 15 on a level 20 content or 105 on a level 110 content).


    @cheyane ; Neverwinter is easy too... at the end there might be some challenge, but the leveling journey is very smooth. The inventory is tight (but you always can roll mule accounts :wink: ), maybe farming some Zen through AD can help on that. Or dropping in some money, if you don't mind that.
    There's even a "subscription-esque" option now, the game is still f2p but you can sign up for a monthly pay and get benefits.
    A sub-esque great thanks will check it out then.
    image
  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,244
    laserit said:
    Wouldn't it be nice if you could switch between different difficulty levels in a MMORPG. 

    Some people might even enjoy it.

    Imagine that ;)
    More options are always better. Except for cash "starved" Publishers who want it out the door as soon as possible. ;)
  • PhryPhry OxfordshireMember EpicPosts: 8,991
    I couple of months ago I gave ESO: Morrowind a chance and it was very hard. I only played for an hour so not sure if I was doing anything wrong or it would've gotten easier soon. 

    I think if you are looking for a challenging solo gameplay, leveling in an MMO isn't going to give you that. Since leveling is a journey most prefer to skip in an MMORPG--apparently--so the challenging stuff are not part of the experience. 
    Really?

    Did they nerf the shit out of the classes or did they actually make the PVE content harder?

    From my experience ESO was too fucking easy.

    The last time I played ESO, which was more recently, it was still fairly easy, so I'm curious as to why it was more difficult for him. Perhaps the difference comes down to character build choices.
    ESO is very strange. It does not communicate its mechanic very well, and combat feels floaty, with no real feel for impact.

    This leads people to making all sort of gimped builds. And the difficulty feels uneven.
    There are only really a small number of 'strong' builds, i've found that if you want to be an archer, then the templar traits are a big improvement over the others, its very easy to nerf yourself by using incompatible 'classes' with various weapon use choices, why i think there are actually very few types of classes in ESO, and that you need to treat the templar/dragonwhatsit/nightblade etc. as just traits to be selected based on whatever weapon you intend to use, same with racial selections, its just another trait to be selected based on preference of appearance and racial benefits, once you have narrowed it down this much, it becomes much easier to select strong combinations of traits for whatever weapons you envisage using, so as such there are only really 4 or 5 classes to select from, it makes the game very 'cookie cutter' in terms of what combinations are the strongest, but if you don't mind not being the strongest you can make the game more 'challenging' by selecting combinations that are not quite so synergistic. ;)
    StoneRoses
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,091
    cheyane said:
    A sub-esque great thanks will check it out then.
    Yep, it's a bit weird definition :wink:  not really a sub (since they were determined that unlike CO and STO, which were sub games before the f2p, they've built Neverwinter as a f2p game from the start), but technically it works very similarly like STO's sub and veteran rewards for example.

    It's called the VIP program: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9492533-neverwinter:-introducing-the-vip-program!
  • PhryPhry OxfordshireMember EpicPosts: 8,991
    Po_gg said:
    cheyane said:
    A sub-esque great thanks will check it out then.
    Yep, it's a bit weird definition :wink:  not really a sub (since they were determined that unlike CO and STO, which were sub games before the f2p, they've built Neverwinter as a f2p game from the start), but technically it works very similarly like STO's sub and veteran rewards for example.

    It's called the VIP program: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9492533-neverwinter:-introducing-the-vip-program!
    Its not a particularly difficult game, and you can definitely buy a significant advantage by using the loot boxes as the item drops from them are usually fairly powerful, some of them extremely so if you get lucky, i think the PC version is no longer the main focus however as they are now concentrating more on the Console versions, which are also free to play, still has the loot boxes and they are, at least afaik absolutely essential in order to compete, just think of them as a subscription, as long as you don't get carried away too much that is. :p
  • borghive49borghive49 Pittsburgh, PAMember RarePosts: 327
    Play the vanilla WoW Elysium server. :)
    SedrynTyros
  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,244
    Play the vanilla WoW Elysium server. :)
    One should try Warmane if he's trying Elysium. Warmane's the biggest and, arguably, the best one.
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,939
    Gorwe said:
    Play the vanilla WoW Elysium server. :)
    One should try Warmane if he's trying Elysium. Warmane's the biggest and, arguably, the best one.
    Gosh, what a sad state of affairs though.  Are we really at the point where there's no modern MMORPG with a PvE leveling experience that's challenging?  At what point did MMORPGs get hijacked from people who enjoyed them the way they were by a bunch of people that should have no business playing games they aren't any good at?
    Gdemamiborghive49forcelima
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,914
    elete5230 said:
    hings are really bad. 

    My friends and I were having a lot of fun playing Vanilla WoW, so after some time we decided to play GW2 to change things up a little.  It was totally impossible to play together because of the instant takedowns.

    Now on to something even worst.
    Shortly after one of my friends and I decided to play LOTRO.  We met up around level 15.  Again totally impossible.  Everything is made to be one shoted.  In fact taking out entire mobs was a pure solo experience where a second player can't even get a shot in.  Quest were so short, each of us were running to turn them in more than playing.  It was impossible to co-op.  After about 5 levels we gave up and deleted the game. 


    Yet if you bring up a topic about easy mode, on any forums, you get the standard "It gets harder". I have yet to see one of them get past extremely easy !

    All classics are now like this, we don't even have ONE mmo.

    I think you are mixing up Guildwars with Guildwars 2. GW was rather hard at launch (it's nerfed now), GW2 was pretty hard the first beta week but got nerfed down to easy mode before even launching. And there are 10 years between the game so moving from vanilla Wow to GW2 would be impossible unless you played Wow on a private vanilla server or use time travel. ;)

    The thing with difficulty though is that it depends on the player, I loved GW myself, perfect difficulty.

    And the problem is that MMOs easily could have 3 difficulty based serversettings, GW2 nerfed down from hard to easy in 2 weeks  so it can't be that much work and would solve all the problems. Give a slightly higher better droprate to each level of difficulty above easy to reward challenges and it would be perfect.

    If MMOs have a really easy setting for suuper casuals, a normal for the average players and a hard for the players enjoying that you would increase the number of players enjoying the game which equal more money for the devs without spending much money.

    Add an option to move to an easier server  but not to an harder so people actually play on the setting they enjoy most without messing up the balance and problem solved. Unlike a single fixed difficulty there is no drawback.
    SedrynTyros
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395

    Gosh, what a sad state of affairs though.  Are we really at the point where there's no modern MMORPG with a PvE leveling experience that's challenging?  At what point did MMORPGs get hijacked from people who enjoyed them the way they were by a bunch of people that should have no business playing games they aren't any good at?

    Diablo 3 has a difficulty slider. You can make leveling very challenging by playing torment 13. Now it may not be a MMO, but it is still kill-stuff-to-level. No difference there.

    And the word "hijacked" implies you group of players own MMO in the first place. It is a free world. I don't see a problem if devs want to cater to casuals. It is not like devs have to cater to you. 
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,031
    edited September 11
      IMO , you really have to back in time for any challenges at all these days ...

         UO, DDO, WURM, Anarchy Online ,EQ, or DAOC for ex.  do offer PVE challenges, the rest is faceroll ..

              On a side Note Project Gorgon offers some nice PVE , but the game is not complete yet, very iteresting and diverse builds are avavilble to experiment with ..


      But again the problem lies with the players, or the majority of , the data pushes Devs to create for numbers ......

          Not many players actually want a challenge (we are the minority) .The majority want to cruise thru there DF pop in -pop out and get the phat loot .. The less effort the better for them
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Scorchien said:


          Not many players actually want a challenge (we are the minority) .The majority want to cruise thru there DF pop in -pop out and get the phat loot .. The less effort the better for them
    Count yourself lucky. There are plenty of games with difficulty sliders. You should have no problem cranking up the difficulties. 
  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,244
    edited September 11

    Gosh, what a sad state of affairs though.  Are we really at the point where there's no modern MMORPG with a PvE leveling experience that's challenging?  At what point did MMORPGs get hijacked from people who enjoyed them the way they were by a bunch of people that should have no business playing games they aren't any good at?

    Diablo 3 has a difficulty slider. You can make leveling very challenging by playing torment 13. Now it may not be a MMO, but it is still kill-stuff-to-level. No difference there.

    And the word "hijacked" implies you group of players own MMO in the first place. It is a free world. I don't see a problem if devs want to cater to casuals. It is not like devs have to cater to you. 
    If only D3 had WASD movement...like indie aRPGs have. To name something, just look at Neocore Games. Why can Hungarian indies do something that BLIZZARD does not want to? ...only like 100x difference in budget.
    Post edited by Gorwe on
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,703
    Gorwe said:

    Gosh, what a sad state of affairs though.  Are we really at the point where there's no modern MMORPG with a PvE leveling experience that's challenging?  At what point did MMORPGs get hijacked from people who enjoyed them the way they were by a bunch of people that should have no business playing games they aren't any good at?

    Diablo 3 has a difficulty slider. You can make leveling very challenging by playing torment 13. Now it may not be a MMO, but it is still kill-stuff-to-level. No difference there.

    And the word "hijacked" implies you group of players own MMO in the first place. It is a free world. I don't see a problem if devs want to cater to casuals. It is not like devs have to cater to you. 
    If only D3 had WASD movement...like indie aRPGs have. To name something, just look at Neocore Games. Why can Hungarian indies do something that BLIZZARD does not want to? ...only like 100x difference in budget.
    I was looking to buy Warhammer 40,000: Inquisitor - Martyr  would you recommend it even though it is in early access?

  • KrynKryn Wahiawa, HIMember UncommonPosts: 169
    Scorchien said:


          Not many players actually want a challenge (we are the minority) .The majority want to cruise thru there DF pop in -pop out and get the phat loot .. The less effort the better for them
    Count yourself lucky. There are plenty of games with difficulty sliders. You should have no problem cranking up the difficulties. 
    The subject was on MMOs.  Please name the MMOs with sliders, not multi player games.  I don't know why anyone would argue that games aren't shit easy these days.  In my opinion if you need a slider to make a game challenging you did it wrong to start with.
  • VardahothVardahoth Temecula, CAMember RarePosts: 1,472
    edited September 11
    I enjoy the challenge (just beat total annihilation on hard mode), but I know gamers today don't want to be challenged. Gamers today as apposed to 15++ years ago, are very very different. So I know we will not see games anymore that offer a challenge.
    Post edited by Vardahoth on

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW New York, NYMember UncommonPosts: 470
    Solo dungeons which are intended for groups or multibox and do group content by yourself.  I really enjoy solo 5 man dungeons in gw2.  Multiboxing account can be fun in some games but get pretty expensive.
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,669
    Nyctelios said:
    I'll be honest, to me they changed the challenge to "you are solo versus you are in group" to "you are not at end game versus you are at end game" which means the monsters are basically big damage sponges.

    But that's not a MMO trend. Most single player titles follow the same concept of "scaling numbers" but not "scaling AI". The last "difficult" game I played in the most accurate sense of the term was Perfect Dark 64, in which the enemies would behave smarter in higher difficulty and later stages... Since that era everything became a "pump those numbers" fest. Trend now glorified by Souls Series that for some people justify brain dead AI but doing tons of damage (no wonder people hold them as example of a hard game).

    In Perfect Dark 64 the enemies would look behind doors, under stairs and walk in pairs. After a while one of them would check why his "friend" did not return. In modern games enemies can detect you beyond walls because the lazy ass programmers just pump the values making game breaking thins happen.

    At same time we have a huge problem: As much it hurts, mainstream gamers today are kinda dumb. I lost count how many times things went sideways in group events because certain players couldn't simply bare the most basic concept of "don't stand on the damage big red problematic area shown with visual and audio aid". And I'm not talking about reaction time: I'm plaing BDO and there is this one dude in our guild that every monster that has some sort of CC or AOE attack almost kills him because he don't get out of the attack area. Why? Is he a bad player? Technically yes, but that's not the reason: He is lazy.

    He simply don't want to bother to dodge and just keep spamming attack. And that's our Average Joe of MMO world. So devs suffer pressure to design challenges to suit said audience, the same way in a classroom the teacher will hold down an explanation if the dumbest kid can't understand it: The worse drags everyone down, even the game design itself.

    And for some reason we are living in an age which people can't admit they are bad (or straight up lazy, not caring) at something and should do something else, something more constructive, with their time.
    I admit it, I'm an average Joe, being 60 now with slower reaction times and maybe I am lazy, or perhaps I think the idea of players in heavy armor or spell casting having to "dodge and roll" or "dance with stars" to be designs I just don't care for.

    I tried BDO for a week, could see its combat design was one I didnt like so I walked away, and here's the important part,  I never spent any money on the game.

    That  "bad player" you spoke of? At least he stuck it out and perhaps even tossed the game a few bucks, so you really shouldn't disparage him or say he shouldn't play.

    I had to give up grouping years ago (unless with forgiving friends) due to the rapid pace of everyone rushing off into oblivion. 

    Now I don't even play MMOs....

    Mission accomplished?
    Tuor7ConstantineMerus

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,786
    Kyleran said:
    Nyctelios said:
    I'll be honest, to me they changed the challenge to "you are solo versus you are in group" to "you are not at end game versus you are at end game" which means the monsters are basically big damage sponges.

    But that's not a MMO trend. Most single player titles follow the same concept of "scaling numbers" but not "scaling AI". The last "difficult" game I played in the most accurate sense of the term was Perfect Dark 64, in which the enemies would behave smarter in higher difficulty and later stages... Since that era everything became a "pump those numbers" fest. Trend now glorified by Souls Series that for some people justify brain dead AI but doing tons of damage (no wonder people hold them as example of a hard game).

    In Perfect Dark 64 the enemies would look behind doors, under stairs and walk in pairs. After a while one of them would check why his "friend" did not return. In modern games enemies can detect you beyond walls because the lazy ass programmers just pump the values making game breaking thins happen.

    At same time we have a huge problem: As much it hurts, mainstream gamers today are kinda dumb. I lost count how many times things went sideways in group events because certain players couldn't simply bare the most basic concept of "don't stand on the damage big red problematic area shown with visual and audio aid". And I'm not talking about reaction time: I'm plaing BDO and there is this one dude in our guild that every monster that has some sort of CC or AOE attack almost kills him because he don't get out of the attack area. Why? Is he a bad player? Technically yes, but that's not the reason: He is lazy.

    He simply don't want to bother to dodge and just keep spamming attack. And that's our Average Joe of MMO world. So devs suffer pressure to design challenges to suit said audience, the same way in a classroom the teacher will hold down an explanation if the dumbest kid can't understand it: The worse drags everyone down, even the game design itself.

    And for some reason we are living in an age which people can't admit they are bad (or straight up lazy, not caring) at something and should do something else, something more constructive, with their time.
    I admit it, I'm an average Joe, being 60 now with slower reaction times and maybe I am lazy, or perhaps I think the idea of players in heavy armor or spell casting having to "dodge and roll" or "dance with stars" to be designs I just don't care for.

    I tried BDO for a week, could see its combat design was one I didnt like so I walked away, and here's the important part,  I never spent any money on the game.

    That  "bad player" you spoke of? At least he stuck it out and perhaps even tossed the game a few bucks, so you really shouldn't disparage him or say he shouldn't play.

    I had to give up grouping years ago (unless with forgiving friends) due to the rapid pace of everyone rushing off into oblivion. 

    Now I don't even play MMOs....

    Mission accomplished?
    Ayn Rand would be proud of them.
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: The Plugz, The Burning Sensations
    Album: Repo Man Soundtrack
    Featured Tracks: Hombre Secreto [Plugz], Pablo Picasso [Burning Sensations]
  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,029
    edited September 11
    Kyleran said:
    I admit it, I'm an average Joe, being 60 now 
    Your twice a runner ;)

    Post edited by laserit on
    SedrynTyrosKyleranTorvalTuor7

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

Sign In or Register to comment.