Are there any MMORPGs left that don't have easy-mode PvE?

SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,764
It's so weird that I have to ask that question because 15 years ago, all of them had challenging combat in PvE while soloing.  But I've tried several MMOs over the last week and all of them are in stuck in easy-mode.  Is there no MMO left for players who enjoy a challenging PvE experience?
laseritMikeha
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  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 4,814
    edited September 11
    Wouldn't it be nice if you could switch between different difficulty levels in a MMORPG. 

    Some people might even enjoy it.

    Imagine that ;)
    Post edited by laserit on
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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 994
    I couple of months ago I gave ESO: Morrowind a chance and it was very hard. I only played for an hour so not sure if I was doing anything wrong or it would've gotten easier soon. 

    I think if you are looking for a challenging solo gameplay, leveling in an MMO isn't going to give you that. Since leveling is a journey most prefer to skip in an MMORPG--apparently--so the challenging stuff are not part of the experience. 
    MellowTigger
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  • NycteliosNyctelios Novo Hamburgo - RS - BrazilMember EpicPosts: 2,218
    I'll be honest, to me they changed the challenge to "you are solo versus you are in group" to "you are not at end game versus you are at end game" which means the monsters are basically big damage sponges.

    But that's not a MMO trend. Most single player titles follow the same concept of "scaling numbers" but not "scaling AI". The last "difficult" game I played in the most accurate sense of the term was Perfect Dark 64, in which the enemies would behave smarter in higher difficulty and later stages... Since that era everything became a "pump those numbers" fest. Trend now glorified by Souls Series that for some people justify brain dead AI but doing tons of damage (no wonder people hold them as example of a hard game).

    In Perfect Dark 64 the enemies would look behind doors, under stairs and walk in pairs. After a while one of them would check why his "friend" did not return. In modern games enemies can detect you beyond walls because the lazy ass programmers just pump the values making game breaking thins happen.

    At same time we have a huge problem: As much it hurts, mainstream gamers today are kinda dumb. I lost count how many times things went sideways in group events because certain players couldn't simply bare the most basic concept of "don't stand on the damage big red problematic area shown with visual and audio aid". And I'm not talking about reaction time: I'm plaing BDO and there is this one dude in our guild that every monster that has some sort of CC or AOE attack almost kills him because he don't get out of the attack area. Why? Is he a bad player? Technically yes, but that's not the reason: He is lazy.

    He simply don't want to bother to dodge and just keep spamming attack. And that's our Average Joe of MMO world. So devs suffer pressure to design challenges to suit said audience, the same way in a classroom the teacher will hold down an explanation if the dumbest kid can't understand it: The worse drags everyone down, even the game design itself.

    And for some reason we are living in an age which people can't admit they are bad (or straight up lazy, not caring) at something and should do something else, something more constructive, with their time.
    SedrynTyrosPo_ggcuraGorweBlackdefKyleranlaseritRufusUO

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  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 913
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  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member UncommonPosts: 116
    The most challenging one I've found for PvE is WildStar. I had to pay more attention than pretty much any other MMORPG I've played to succeed.

    However, it had some kind of annoying sound issue with my particular type of laptop for which I could never find a solution so I can't say how it plays at the high end.

    However, as is the standard these days, you can give it a try for free to see if it interests you.

    Caveats:

    It is action based and cartoonish so if you don't like either or both those things then the game may well not appeal to you.

    There always seems to be the feel of looming disaster over it as it is connected with NCSoft and not a top performer. However, the game is till plugging away and just added more features, so the disaster may not be as looming as some feel.
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 1,475
    What is difficult for some players is easy for others and it goes beyond L2P.

    I feel the beyond L2P is killing it.

    These are the folks who try to get into something they themselves know they are not really good at it but do it anyways.

    These are the folks who want to experience the same thing you and I took the time to achieve. Followed by saying "I want that too, can you make it easy for me," then it would be easier for the rest of us.


    Torval
    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
    Real Fans of Soccer don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of Baseball don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 1,475
    I couple of months ago I gave ESO: Morrowind a chance and it was very hard. I only played for an hour so not sure if I was doing anything wrong or it would've gotten easier soon. 

    I think if you are looking for a challenging solo gameplay, leveling in an MMO isn't going to give you that. Since leveling is a journey most prefer to skip in an MMORPG--apparently--so the challenging stuff are not part of the experience. 
    Really?

    Did they nerf the shit out of the classes or did they actually make the PVE content harder?

    From my experience ESO was too fucking easy.

    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
    Real Fans of Soccer don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of Baseball don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,764
    edited September 11
    The most challenging one I've found for PvE is WildStar. I had to pay more attention than pretty much any other MMORPG I've played to succeed.

    ......
    And when does that challenge begin?  What level?  Because I've played WildStar to level 12 over the last few days and there's no challenge anywhere to be found yet.  Seriously.  Like every other MMO I've tried, you vastly outclass the monsters you face while leveling to the point where it's literally impossible to die if you're not having a epileptic seizure while playing.

    I'll probably keep playing for a bit because I like everything about the game .... except for how ridiculously easy it is.  Would it be so hard for the developers to make the monsters deal enough damage to you to actually force you to dodge out of the way?  They give you the ability to dodge, but you don't need to use it.  You don't even need to move out of the red danger zones.  Now, I'm guessing that's not the case in dungeons or raids, but the game should also be fun to play outside of dungeons and raids.
    Post edited by SedrynTyros on
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member UncommonPosts: 116
    I couple of months ago I gave ESO: Morrowind a chance and it was very hard. I only played for an hour so not sure if I was doing anything wrong or it would've gotten easier soon. 

    I think if you are looking for a challenging solo gameplay, leveling in an MMO isn't going to give you that. Since leveling is a journey most prefer to skip in an MMORPG--apparently--so the challenging stuff are not part of the experience. 
    Really?

    Did they nerf the shit out of the classes or did they actually make the PVE content harder?

    From my experience ESO was too fucking easy.

    The last time I played ESO, which was more recently, it was still fairly easy, so I'm curious as to why it was more difficult for him. Perhaps the difference comes down to character build choices.
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 994
    I was trying the Warden. I had to dodge a lot, run and heal myself and died quite a few times doing a quest in a dungeon with all the fire bees and poisonous yet lovely creatures. I was rather amazed myself on the difficulty. 
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  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 1,475
    edited September 11
    The most challenging one I've found for PvE is WildStar. I had to pay more attention than pretty much any other MMORPG I've played to succeed.

    ......
    And when does that challenge begin?  What level?  Because I've played WildStar to level 12 over the last few days and there's no challenge anywhere to be found yet.  Seriously.  Like every other MMO I've tried, you vastly outclass the monsters you face while leveling to the point where it's literally impossible to die if you're not having a epileptic seizure while playing.

    I'll probably keep playing for a bit because I like everything about the game .... except for how ridiculously easy it is.  Would it be so hard for the developers to make the monsters deal enough damage to you to actually force you to dodge out of the way?  They give you the ability to dodge, but you don't need to use it.  You don't even need to move out of the red danger zones.  Now, I'm guessing that's not the case in dungeons or raids, but the game should also be fun to play outside of dungeons and raids.
    You were given the OPTION!

    There are hard mobs throughout the PVE maps that give more XP when you defeat them.
    You can however, kill the easy ones ignore the harder ones all together. 

    Level 20 Dungeons! DISCO FUCKING DANCING and get WRECKED!

    Post edited by StoneRoses on
    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
    Real Fans of Soccer don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of Baseball don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 1,475
    edited September 11
    I couple of months ago I gave ESO: Morrowind a chance and it was very hard. I only played for an hour so not sure if I was doing anything wrong or it would've gotten easier soon. 

    I think if you are looking for a challenging solo gameplay, leveling in an MMO isn't going to give you that. Since leveling is a journey most prefer to skip in an MMORPG--apparently--so the challenging stuff are not part of the experience. 
    Really?

    Did they nerf the shit out of the classes or did they actually make the PVE content harder?

    From my experience ESO was too fucking easy.

    The last time I played ESO, which was more recently, it was still fairly easy, so I'm curious as to why it was more difficult for him. Perhaps the difference comes down to character build choices.
    I wasn't going to go there, but you are right.
    Post edited by StoneRoses on
    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
    Real Fans of Soccer don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of Baseball don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,603
    Darkfall. The AI is nothing special but it takes a lot to master combat and some of the enemies such as the red dragons are just straight tough.

    Star Citizen is the most skill intensive game I've played since Darkfall. The MMO may not be out yet but you can get a feel for what I mean playing Arena Commander / Star Marine / or the Test Universe.

    The downside of both these games is barrier to entry is a bit stiff, but if you are looking for challenge that's probably what you are looking for.
    Gdemami
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,764
    The most challenging one I've found for PvE is WildStar. I had to pay more attention than pretty much any other MMORPG I've played to succeed.

    ......
    And when does that challenge begin?  What level?  Because I've played WildStar to level 12 over the last few days and there's no challenge anywhere to be found yet.  Seriously.  Like every other MMO I've tried, you vastly outclass the monsters you face while leveling to the point where it's literally impossible to die if you're not having a epileptic seizure while playing.

    I'll probably keep playing for a bit because I like everything about the game .... except for how ridiculously easy it is.  Would it be so hard for the developers to make the monsters deal enough damage to you to actually force you to dodge out of the way?  They give you the ability to dodge, but you don't need to use it.  You don't even need to move out of the red danger zones.  Now, I'm guessing that's not the case in dungeons or raids, but the game should also be fun to play outside of dungeons and raids.
    L

    You were given the OPTION!

    There are hard mobs throughout the PVE maps that give more XP when you defeat them.
    You can however, kill the easy ones ignore the harder ones all together. 

    Level 20 Dungeons! DISCO FUCKING DANCING and get WRECKED!

    Yeah, I found two boss looking monsters in the Celestion zone that weren't a complete faceroll, but I really hope the overworld content gets more challenging on average than I've seen so far.  Because the game seems to have a lot going for it otherwise.

    I never played it during the initial launch; my first time playing was last week.
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 994
    The most challenging one I've found for PvE is WildStar. I had to pay more attention than pretty much any other MMORPG I've played to succeed.

    ......
    And when does that challenge begin?  What level?  Because I've played WildStar to level 12 over the last few days and there's no challenge anywhere to be found yet.  Seriously.  Like every other MMO I've tried, you vastly outclass the monsters you face while leveling to the point where it's literally impossible to die if you're not having a epileptic seizure while playing.

    I'll probably keep playing for a bit because I like everything about the game .... except for how ridiculously easy it is.  Would it be so hard for the developers to make the monsters deal enough damage to you to actually force you to dodge out of the way?  They give you the ability to dodge, but you don't need to use it.  You don't even need to move out of the red danger zones.  Now, I'm guessing that's not the case in dungeons or raids, but the game should also be fun to play outside of dungeons and raids.
    L

    You were given the OPTION!

    There are hard mobs throughout the PVE maps that give more XP when you defeat them.
    You can however, kill the easy ones ignore the harder ones all together. 

    Level 20 Dungeons! DISCO FUCKING DANCING and get WRECKED!

    Yeah, I found two boss looking monsters in the Celestion zone that weren't a complete faceroll, but I really hope the overworld content gets more challenging on average than I've seen so far.  Because the game seems to have a lot going for it otherwise.

    I never played it during the initial launch; my first time playing was last week.
    It might not get as hard as you'd want it to be but it would definitely get a lot more challenging post level 20. Although I haven't played it since launch, but I did level 3 toons to max back then. 
    I am a piece of carbon with a soul, wondering where I got it from. 
    - Drunken Mozart in the Desert
  • NibsNibs .Member UncommonPosts: 254
    Surely, at least in WildStar, you can move onto a higher level area for a greater challenge? If your 12th level, stop fighting 10th-12th mobs, move on a zone and try 15-17. Still too easy? Try 20th. Keep going until you find the challenge you're after?

    Unless they've locked all questing behind "You must complete quest X from the previous zone before you get any in this zone". Then you're just fucked.
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,000
    edited September 11
    It might not get as hard as you'd want it to be but it would definitely get a lot more challenging post level 20. Although I haven't played it since launch, but I did level 3 toons to max back then. 
    They made it a lot easier at around the f2p switch, I agree with Sedryn that currently during the leveling the only challenge you can find is if you solo a public event - on level. If you do it a few more levels above, you find that fairly easy too.
    Nyctelios said:
    And that's our Average Joe of MMO world. So devs suffer pressure to design challenges to suit said audience, the same way in a classroom the teacher will hold down an explanation if the dumbest kid can't understand it: The worse drags everyone down, even the game design itself.
    This.
    With a slight edit, not the dumbest "kid", singular, sadly they are the majority now, since almost everyone is a so-called gamer. And since their money is the same as the smaller and brighter group's money, just more easily parted (a fool and his money... :wink: ), the devs don't "suffer" the pressure, they embrace it. Dumbification might mean more money to their pockets. Just look at FC's Legends...


    For the question, I don't know. Couldn't say a single one. And it isn't a new thing, it is going on since years... I remember when Defiance launched and HL did the video about it, praising at one point that he died a lot, and how great to finally see challenge in a game's PvE - then turned out he just wandered into a public event, solo :smiley:
    Post edited by Po_gg on
    ConstantineMerusNyctelios
  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebMember RarePosts: 5,623
    There is one stupid mechanic in MMOs that makes each of them easy mode. And it was introduced by WoW:

    You can not damage MOB that is higher level than you ( + 2 , or something )


    This was probably introduced as some kind of balancing act.

    But if it was not, you could simply go and fight high level enemies and the game will be much harder, but bring more exp and better rewards.



  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebMember RarePosts: 5,623
    I couple of months ago I gave ESO: Morrowind a chance and it was very hard. I only played for an hour so not sure if I was doing anything wrong or it would've gotten easier soon. 

    I think if you are looking for a challenging solo gameplay, leveling in an MMO isn't going to give you that. Since leveling is a journey most prefer to skip in an MMORPG--apparently--so the challenging stuff are not part of the experience. 
    Really?

    Did they nerf the shit out of the classes or did they actually make the PVE content harder?

    From my experience ESO was too fucking easy.

    The last time I played ESO, which was more recently, it was still fairly easy, so I'm curious as to why it was more difficult for him. Perhaps the difference comes down to character build choices.
    ESO is very strange. It does not communicate its mechanic very well, and combat feels floaty, with no real feel for impact.

    This leads people to making all sort of gimped builds. And the difficulty feels uneven.



  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,603
    Yeah when I played ESO it was quite easy. Me and my fiance were kind of tearing through everything even when we went into areas higher level than we were, but then we had a pair of complementary builds that I feel were pretty solid.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSMember UncommonPosts: 1,380
    why do you chose easy mode ? le naked with bare hands and yolo all boss for me to do the hard mode , be manly and care not about cheater who pay to win .
  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,749
    Any MMORPG that allows you to handle harder mobs of higher level without any rule like you not being able to damage them at all because of level should provide some challenge.
    image
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,000
    cheyane said:
    Any MMORPG that allows you to handle harder mobs of higher level without any rule like you not being able to damage them at all because of level should provide some challenge.
    That's why you need to ditch levels :wink:  in TSW you could go anywhere and jump on any mob or boss. If it was stronger, it gave back your ripped-off head to you on a platter. There was no mechanic against it, and the only "punishment" for it was the reduced xp.

    If you have levels, that automatically brings some of those rules you mention... take LotRO for example, it is notorious about playing with the xp-disabler and playing above level for the additional challenge, but after a certain gap it becomes impossible. Not because of some added rule of "you shall not pass and kill this boss" but simply due to the mechanics.
    You can go anywhere, can run around as level 10 in a level 90 area, but if you jump into combat, you will be dead. Since their skills and stats are set against a similar level opponent, they will one-shot you even with their base attacks.
    Or with a less extreme example, if you fight with a mob 10-15 levels above you, you will glance almost all the time. Not a rule against the behaviour, simply due to the stat differences.

    But playing against 4-5 levels above you is totally viable and challenging / fun, lots of players (even whole kinships) do that, you can find kinships with such ruleset on most servers.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,477
    cheyane said:
    Any MMORPG that allows you to handle harder mobs of higher level without any rule like you not being able to damage them at all because of level should provide some challenge.
    Asheron's Call.
    A skilled player at level 80ish can kill most mobs of the game, even level 600+ ones.
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  • angerbeaverangerbeaver Member UncommonPosts: 1,009
    Didn't Wildstar or whatever it was called try the super difficulty PVE mode?
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