The MMO definition has evolved and the old definition no longer applies

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  • Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi The Crossroads, DeathMember UncommonPosts: 223
    Here is the thing... WoW allows in the open world for thousands or more people playing together in the same virtual world. THIS is what a morph is.

    Guild Wars one for example was not a MMORPG, it was a Cooperative Online RPG. Essentially a graphical lobby based RPG. Destiny is essentially a FPS with cooperative play, with a graphical lobby system. It is not a MMORPG, but what does that matter? I find that the need to classify a genre now is almost pointless.

    If Destiny is a MMO, then so is Call of Duty.

    MMORPG is not about the amount of players playing at once, it is more about the idea of a virtual world with thousands of people ABLE to play at once, hundred of which in the same area of a persistent online world. However even this line has been blurred so badly it is almost pointless to attempt to classify MMOs today.

    For example Crowfall is considered a MMORPG, however shares more in common with a MOBA than a MMORPG.

    Well that is my ramble on this. Just play what you enjoy... Genres only help you find games you may like.
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  • klash2defklash2def Member RarePosts: 852
    Here is the thing... WoW allows in the open world for thousands or more people playing together in the same virtual world. THIS is what a morph is.

    Guild Wars one for example was not a MMORPG, it was a Cooperative Online RPG. Essentially a graphical lobby based RPG. Destiny is essentially a FPS with cooperative play, with a graphical lobby system. It is not a MMORPG, but what does that matter? I find that the need to classify a genre now is almost pointless.

    If Destiny is a MMO, then so is Call of Duty.

    MMORPG is not about the amount of players playing at once, it is more about the idea of a virtual world with thousands of people ABLE to play at once, hundred of which in the same area of a persistent online world. However even this line has been blurred so badly it is almost pointless to attempt to classify MMOs today.

    For example Crowfall is considered a MMORPG, however shares more in common with a MOBA than a MMORPG.

    Well that is my ramble on this. Just play what you enjoy... Genres only help you find games you may like.
    Interesting points but one thing.. COD is nothing like Destiny. Have you played Destiny? serious question. Not watch on youtube but own a copy on console to play for yourself.  OR COD? COD is a lobby based shooter with Single Player Mode. Literally it says so in the main menu:

    Single Player Campaign
    Multiplayer 
    Options

    COD you load the multiplayer it asks what load out you want and it drops you into a lobby with 12 players. No real customization outside picking your weapon loadout. You do these small death match style matches on a small map like a house with a backyard (Serious) and thats it. Thats the multiplayer. No open world, no gear drops, no custom avatar, no lore to discover.. nothing.

    Destiny: You load the game and the first screen is create your avatar.
    You wake up and get through the tutorial like ALL mmos then you get to the shared world. From there you can group up with people join fire teams or you can continue your own mission go to earth and start doing the starter quests.. once you get enough gear you can start doing open world missions with people in the world.. like you can literally group with a person who helped you take down a tough world boss because you were going solo for a bit.

    Destiny has quests, raids, dailies, heroics, mounts, guilds you name it.. it has everything most MMOs have except its a smaller group of instanced people. Instead of 100-200 people a instance you get 20 a instance. Its not bad its still fun its curated list.. The game is smart about putting you near people you know or have played with before to ensure you adventure is with people you know and want to play with. You can also disregard all that and try to solo it, but at some point the game gets so hard you HAVE to get help. 

    The only thing Destiny has in common with COD is the FPS part. That's it. 

    I agree with your point about its not about the number of people, its the idea of a virtual world. That's what I've been saying about Destiny. People keep saying its not a mmo because it doesnt have the amount of people to be MASSIVE.. but still Its a virtual world maybe not the same scale as WoW but its there for those who want to see it. 

    anyway.. playing absolver
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    The definition has not changed. There is a small movement pushed by a minority of players to make the term mean absolutely nothing. This movement has not been accepted or adopted by the greater majority of MMO players.

    What needs to happen is people need to stop trying to steal a term that has a specific meaning to a specific community to use for their own purposes when they supposedly don't care about this term.
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  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,982
    postlarval said:6
    Iselin said:
    "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"




    That's a blueberry, not an apple.

    /eyeroll


    A pineapple is still an apple?

    I think maybe we need a new definition for apple.

    craftseeker
  • klash2defklash2def Member RarePosts: 852
    edited September 3
    Eldurian said:
    The definition has not changed. There is a small movement pushed by a minority of players to make the term mean absolutely nothing. This movement has not been accepted or adopted by the greater majority of MMO players.

    What needs to happen is people need to stop trying to steal a term that has a specific meaning to a specific community to use for their own purposes when they supposedly don't care about this term.
    Disagree. The people holding on to the old definition of the word are the Minority. Look at youtube the people dont lie. People dont want those old style games no matter what the minority say, how many of those old style games that came out over the years failed? All of em. There is no way the people holding on to the term are the Majority. 

    The majority of MMO players in 2017 are not looking for old style MMO mechanics. They would quit instantly actually if they had to play those. They play games like WoW (a shell of what it was streamlined for casual play) GTA Online, Warframe and Destiny..because its easy to pick up and get into.. the hardcore barrier is gone.. all games with MMO elements but not the classic MMO you are used to. They take the streamline approach and it works.. 

    How many people play classic runescape? Vanilla WoW? SWGemu? DAOC? Even if you add all those numbers together its not even close to the newer games. That era is dead. Its time for MMO gamers, specifically the ones holding on to that era to let it go. Its not coming back. 

    HOW are they stealing a term also? MMO term doesnt belong to anybody. Its a term used to describe a hobby we all share.. some of us choose to move on to new frontiers.. others are going down with the sinking ship.. thats just how it is but neither side owns the term, thats just bs. The term describes a type of game we all like.

    Ive been playing MMO's since the early 2000s also, my first being runescape, Im in my early 30s, So ive been around to see all MMOs since the year 2000.. i played RS for years until wow then i got that, then i got swg..I moved on to diff games, Ive had my favs, Put in 1000s of hours on XB Destiny,  im playing absolver waiting for destiny 2. See I'm a Gamer in general I love games always will.. MMOs are my favorite and I refuse to ignore the new ones because Im too afraid or stubborn to give whats happening now a chance. 
    Post edited by klash2def on
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    edited September 3
    klash2def said:
    Eldurian said:
    The definition has not changed. There is a small movement pushed by a minority of players to make the term mean absolutely nothing. This movement has not been accepted or adopted by the greater majority of MMO players.

    What needs to happen is people need to stop trying to steal a term that has a specific meaning to a specific community to use for their own purposes when they supposedly don't care about this term.
    Disagree. The people holding on to the old definition of the word are the Minority. Look at youtube the people dont lie. People dont want those old style games no matter what the minority say, how many of those old style games that came out over the years failed? All of em. There is no way the people holding on to the term are the Majority.  
    Where the your logic falls short is in your assumption that people who don't want to play MMOs care about the term MMO.

    Yes, MMOs are a genre in decline. I've never argued anything else. But the majority of people who want to play an "MMO" want to play a true MMO. The majority who want to play other things don't have any overwhelming desire to call the games they play something they aren't.

    The popularity of an alternative is not a valid argument against proper usage of vocabulary. 

    People who want to call non-MMO games MMOs are an extreme minority of both the MMO community an the overall gaming community.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
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  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickMember UncommonPosts: 1,303
    I think you mean it devolved, because mmo's were never as simple as they are now. Even a half braindead retarded monkey can hit level cap in a mmo these days. The "endgame": has turned to crap since its msotly just arena fights in many mmorpgs now. I miss when you used to have to go thru a hard as balls (at first) area with trash and minibosses to get to the raid bosses. As someone who's played some of the older mmo's the newer ones just don't have that sense of achievement anymore for me, mostly because they are too easy.

    Wow brought the mentality of "everyone gets a trophy", as well as the "piss poor single player game till level cap" systems.

    The last mmorpg i've played that I would actually even consider a mmorpg is final fantasy 11 back when the level cap was 75 before abbysea which dumbed the game down and destroyed what it had that made it good. To the ininformed (pretty much every game of the ps3 and up gen). FF11 had a system where one char can be all jobs, stuff took time to do, solo was bascally a non-option for most classes, you required people to do much of anything, which created a sense of community you just cannot get anymore in mmorpgs today. It also was grinding to level, so people actually had to socalize, the game wasn't for loners. Alot of the content back when the 75 cap was in was level synced, which means even if the person has a 75 you'll be fighting as if you were a level 50, which kept diffculty of encounters as you couldn't just out gear them.

    As far as i'm concerned FF11 is the last true mmorpg thats out there, and its going to be dying soon. I haven't gotten into mmorpgs much lately because they all feel like I am playing the same game just with a diffrent skin or graphical style to it. This is what wow has done to destroy the genre. The damage is done and it'll probally never be undone. Hell a game like .hack GU for ps2 feels more like a mmo than actual mmo's do. Its also getting a ps4/pc remake soon that has vol 1,2 and 3 and a new 4th volume. The downside? the game was dumbed down for todays gamers due to their lack of skill, and them wanting it all handed to them, They upped attack power, exp/weaponskinn gain and also nerfed some of the optional hard bosses. The orignal game wasn't really hard or grindy at all so I never seen a need for those changes, I do however like all the other changes they are doing.

    mmorpg's to me were supposed to be about the journey, not rush to endgame then do arena battles for gear that you can't use for anything really.
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  • borghive49borghive49 Pittsburgh, PAMember RarePosts: 327
    I'm glad the genre is shrinking, at least MMOs can get back to their roots of small communities, instead of sharing our wonderful genre with morons like the OP. Also, age has nothing to do with it, you just look stupid trying to make assumptions about age being a factor, there are plenty of younger gamers that enjoy old school MMOs as well as many other older games. The classic gaming scene is exploding at the moment, do you watch Twitch lol? 

    I'd like to add that your crusade here at MMORPG is falling on deaf ears, no one cares what you think, let it go, I really don't understand why you keep bringing this up. WE GET IT, you don't like MMOs, there are plenty of other places you can vent your frustration, leave us alone already. 


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  • forcelimaforcelima Atlanta, GAMember UncommonPosts: 209
    edited September 3
    I'm just going to start calling shooters RTS's because I have to strategize in real time while playing them, but they have online feature so maybe I will call them mmorts.  And see if it sticks .

     Then rts fan will buy games only to find out they are actually shooters , then someone can tell them that the definition has change and to get with the times . Well I'm done.

    Just because the majority call the sky green it doesn't mean the sky changed color it just mean there are a majority of fools that never learned their colors in kindergarten. /Rant over
    Post edited by forcelima on
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    forcelima said:

    Just because the majority call the sky green it doesn't mean the sky changed color
    Do not allow them to convince you the majority see things this way. They do not. My friends who left MMOs for other genres didn't tell me:

    "I'm abandoning traditional MMOs for new age MMOs."

    They said. "I'm done with MMOs" because they knew they games they were leaving for weren't MMOs of any kind.
    forcelimaGdemamiTuor7
  • BestinnaBestinna Member UncommonPosts: 145
    lul
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member UncommonPosts: 259
    The MMO definition varies between persons as is amply demonstrated here.

    I personally apply it to any game that includes grouped online play that doesn't have the scope or scale of traditional MMORPGs while possibly, but not necessarily, sharing some of their elements.

    I feel the MMO term is broader than in the past due to a greater variety in games that offer grouped online play than previously.
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,283
    I think the debate should be about the definition of "evolved" first. 
    forcelima
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  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,120
    There are many threads arguing what an MMO is or is not.

    I'll just lay it on straight. The reason no one can agree is because the definition is outdated. Simple as that. Some people cling to the old way, but most have moved on and embraced the new definition.

    Lets look at older MMOs

    Asheron's Call. Ultima Online. EVE Online. Star Wars Galaxies (as just some examples). All massive worlds with no instances or small co-op dungeons. They could be played by thousands in one single world.

    Todays MMOs? Far more complicated and fluid. Today, many MMOs use co-op features instead of MMO features. Many themepark MMOs heavily entice people (with far better items than crafted) with small man parties, like WoW its 6 player limit dungeons. That definitely wouldn't be considered massively multiplayer in the old days. Does that make WoW not an MMO? No, but it is a great example of how MMOs are no longer the same from before and how the old definition doesn't apply.

    Then you have MMOs that aren't very massive anymore, just the potential to be massive. Look at Istaria and there 5-10 off-peak active player base and then only 40-50 at peak...it has the potential to be massive...sadly it isn't and its a dead MMO. Still an MMO, but not really massive as it once was and in fact is smaller than most minecraft or even call of duty servers.

    Does it make Istaria not an MMO? No, but that is where the fluidity of the definition comes in. People still consider it an MMO, because the definition of MMO itself has changed. It doesn't mean massive amounts of players or a huge living breathing world. MMOs are games like GW2, co-op experiences like WoW, or games like Destiny 2 that have many MMO features and feels more like an MMO than many MMOs do.

    Does that make the other games not MMOs? No, because its a fluid definition. Many games could easily be considered MMOs in todays world. MMO definitions from even in the early 2000s no longer apply to today. The MMO genre has changed greatly, and now only oldschool MMO gamers are left not embracing the change. But they too will eventually give in and be with the modern times.

    MMOs have changed, and that too means what is considered an MMO or not has changed as well. MMOs have evolved to be many types of games, and the old definition is outdated and no longer applies to newer MMOs.
    The word didn't evolve, it was bastardized. Anything and everything is tagged with MMO now as long as it has multiplayer.
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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,283
    edited September 3
    Btw, aren't you the same lad that made a post recently about how you quit MMOs and you hated grouping?

    The sheer amount of arrogance and narcissism is appalling that you thought you are the one that should step up and announce the evolution of the definition. But here we go...

    Devs call their games MMOs is because they like that word massively in their name. If the genre's name was something else but it still had the same definition, I bet other games wouldn't be grabbing the name all the time. But right now is we are making a multiplayer, and we are planning to sell it to a lot of people, so yeah, massively we are. Players also go yeah I love this game, lots of other people love it too, so hell yeah if this ain't massively then I don't know what is. 

    I made a very long comment to Torval once, not going through that again, but I'm going to borrow a bit from that. You can't make 2-storey building and call it a high-rise. Same logic applies here.

    High-rise definition also evolved with time. First it was +2, then +4, then +5, then +7, and now in big cities +12. 

    As tech advanced,  the term also applied to taller buildings. You don't go backwards, and when you do, it's not called fucking evolved.

    Shooter and RTS games had lobbies and maps with up to a dozen players decades before the games are getting labeled as MMOs these days, and they weren't MMOs back then, and they ain't MMOs right now.

    This is turning into like watching an advertisement on TV about a Miracle Solvent, then change the definition of the word miracle referencing the fucking teaser.

    So unless our brains have also shrunk alongside the amount of players involved IN GAMEPLAY, the term massively remains the same. 
    Post edited by ConstantineMerus on
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  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member UncommonPosts: 259
    forcelima said:
    I'm just going to start calling shooters RTS's because I have to strategize in real time while playing them, but they have online feature so maybe I will call them mmorts.  And see if it sticks .

     Then rts fan will buy games only to find out they are actually shooters , then someone can tell them that the definition has change and to get with the times . Well I'm done.

    Just because the majority call the sky green it doesn't mean the sky changed color it just mean there are a majority of fools that never learned their colors in kindergarten. /Rant over
    The majority view is generally what defines things.

    The sky can only be called blue because the majority have associated that word (or the equivalent in their language) with the colour the sky happens to be on a clear day.

    What we learn in kindergarten is not the colours, but the arbitrary and contrived attributions applied to them, that are only made defining by majority acceptance.
  • k61977k61977 Pendleton, SCMember RarePosts: 749
    I have to disagree in part again.  No the definition of MMO has not changed.  It is people trying to call things something they are not that has changed.   The only real part of the definition that is even open to interpretation is the word Massively.  That is a subjective term with no set meaning.  Other than that it hasn't changed a bit. 

    For me personally if the game cannot hold at least 10k people at one time it isn't an MMO it is a multiplayer game.  I have have subjectively set a threshold of 10k for myself.  Until there is a finite number assigned to massively anyone can call anything a MMO because there is no limit just what you set yourself. 

    So with that in mind I can set 10k, but someone else could consider 50 to be massively.  See how that works.
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  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Grah, ALMember RarePosts: 1,055
    Watered down, not evolved.
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,903
    i left some food outside the fridge. it too evolved...but i'm not eating it.
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  • coretex666coretex666 PragueMember RarePosts: 3,216
    No offense, OP, but I think the mods should really start locking some of the threads here.

    How many threads regarding what an MMO is does this forum need?

    WTF is an MMO, is Destiny 2 an MMO, MMO definition has evolved...just another weekend at mmorpg.com.
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  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastMember UncommonPosts: 2,092
    If it doesn't have many people online that I can interact with and a character I can roleplay the it's not an MMORPG.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 1,647
    DMKano said:
    postlarval said:6
    Iselin said:
    "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"




    That's a blueberry, not an apple.

    /eyeroll


    A pineapple is still an apple?

    I think maybe we need a new definition for apple.

    *woosh*

    You may want to consider hiring an air traffic controller to manage the airspace above your head because that one sailed over it at such a great distance it's now in danger of interfering with international flight patterns.
  • klash2defklash2def Member RarePosts: 852
    edited September 3
    Akulas said:
    If it doesn't have many people online that I can interact with and a character I can roleplay the it's not an MMORPG.
    I'm part of a RP group in Destiny. FYI..

    XBOX1 has this thing called "Clubs" people can join which is literally groups with thousands of people in them that share the same type of hobbies in gaming.. there are groups for people who enjoy high level competition in Madden, There are Groups for People who Enjoy RP, groups for people who enjoy FPS only games like COD.. just wanted to put that out there.

    Whenever I play destiny 9/10 im playing people who RP as well. 
    Post edited by klash2def on
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  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 657
    No offense, OP, but I think the mods should really start locking some of the threads here.

    How many threads regarding what an MMO is does this forum need?

    WTF is an MMO, is Destiny 2 an MMO, MMO definition has evolved...just another weekend at mmorpg.com.
    Dont worry, next week we'll be back to 'definition of sandbox', 'weather perm death could ever work', 'how pvp ruins pve games' or even the old 'classic things were better in the old days'.
  • klash2defklash2def Member RarePosts: 852
    edited September 3
    No offense, OP, but I think the mods should really start locking some of the threads here.

    How many threads regarding what an MMO is does this forum need?

    WTF is an MMO, is Destiny 2 an MMO, MMO definition has evolved...just another weekend at mmorpg.com.
    Lock it for what? You can't handle somebody having a opinion that you don't share? 
    Post edited by klash2def on
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